How to educate players about the perils of the OOC sharing of IC info?

[Myrdryn]

This topic comes up a lot.  And we all know that there is no way to completely stop people from talking about the game through out instant messages and other means.  Especially with those of us that love the game and feel so passionately about the game, it's hard not to talk to among other players (people who don't play will just look at us like we're weird right?).  In the end I think that showing people that it is harmful is the most productive way to deal with the problem (rather than punishment).

However talking about important game points, code mechanics and other secret aspects and events in the game can be harmful.  There is an old old post by Thanos that details how sharing of IC information ruined a quest he was running.  It's an old post and kind of weathered and only deals with one situation where sharing of IC info was bad.

In an attempt to update the documentation on the subject, I was hoping that others might have other examples of how this kind of thing can ruin aspects of the game for the players.  In the end I think that showing people that it is harmful is the most productive way to deal with this kind of thing (rather than staff dishing out punishment).

[Tisiphone]

There's the classic example of how learning what the sekrit powers of a guild or templar are makes them less scary and somehow more approachable as something with which to be dealt, rather than something to put the fear of Tek into you.

However, there's also a more oblique one: OOC knowledge-sharing has an aura of authority; if you learn what something is or can do from another player, it seems definitely right. This is problematic both in cases where the information is actually true and those where 'tis actually false; in the former, over time the players involved on both ends run the risk of becoming jaded or starting to see the MUD as a code-base, rather than a world, and in the latter, that compounds with a possible disillusionment, either because something isn't the way it 'should' be - because the player doesn't think that the code is as robust as 'tis, or because something the player thought was very neat and complex ends up not being so.

[Agent_137]

If you learn some super magickal secret about a character you play across from, you now all of a sudden OOCly spot every single clue they drop. Before, how many would you miss? What would you attribute them to? How long would it take you to figure out the truth? Now it's impossible to answer those questions, and you have to just decide if your char will ever find out and when, it's not a natural plot anymore, it's forced and calculated.

The above issue also happens when you learn about super sekret motivations/plans of an IC friend that cross your character's own motivations/plans.

[psionic fungus]

I find the game to be less enjoyable when I just know who the players of other characters around me are. Unfortunately, I think that being educated about sharing OOC information is something that comes with experience.  I just don't think people are likely to listen until something has happened to them that reinforces exactly why not to share IC information over OOC channels.

[Barzalene]

For what it's worth, I had a negative experience in 2003, that five years later, I am still just as frustrated and  bitter about. Enough so, that it still has a negative impact on my feelings about the game. I used to think a little chatting was harmless. I am now sure it isn't. For what that may be worth to anyone.

[UnderSeven]

I think much of the ooc information is shared accidentally.  Where the communication over ooc channels is done in a harmles light and this or that secret just slips.  It's hard to make people realize that harmless occ communication can harm their experience of the game, but it definatley happens.

[Malken]

Let's stop lying to each other for a moment, we all know that there's some players out there who could be considered the google of IC info.

Some of them are even trusted players of our community. (I'm not a saint, but like PF says, it takes time to realize that this is your main reason as to why you start hating the game after a few months, at least, that's what cured me.)

The only way to stop the spread of sharing IC info? There's only one solution for me, it's for the Imms to start going undercover and when they catch someone, they ban them for a week, or a month.

That's going to start spreading the fear in the AIM'ers that anyone could be a Staff member and that's really the only way you'll make them stop.

That old story from Thanos is unfortunately not working at all.

[flurry]

I think the biggest "cost" to the culture of info-spreading outside the game is the loss of mystery, secrets, and discovery.  On an individual level, you can just choose to avoid communicating outside the game, especially with the gossipers and blabbermouths. That only helps so much, though, because you still have to roleplay with the people who are swapping game secrets by ooc means.

The example that comes to mind for me is dealing with characters who have encyclopedic knowledge of the world well beyond all believability.  I can think of one specific character who knew how to get everywhere, knew exactly where to forage for anything, could rattle off the abilities of all flavor of magickers, etc. etc..  You name it, he knew it, and would act surprised that you didn't.  It made me want to avoid dealing with him just because it was so clear his player had made a decision to play Armageddon on "easy mode".  I had not, and that meant not roleplaying with that character.

I really, really dislike playing with seemingly omniscient characters, and I'm sure their existence in the game is largely due to info spread outside of the game.

I would love to see more mystery and intrigue preserved in 2.armageddon, but I fear that the people spreading the info outside the game think it's harmless, and don't realize how much they're affecting the experience for everyone.

[touringCompl3t3]

emote agrees with flurry.  I too have trouble dealing with 'omniscient' characters.

[Salt Merchant]

Let me first say that I don't exchange IC information. This is true simply because I'm not in contact with anyone that plays the game. Nor do I support the offline exchange of OOC information.

Even so, I can see how it's easy to become a bit cynical about this issue when one discovers that the staff have characters in the game as well. As players, they will always possess far more knowledge about the workings of the game and doings within it, as well as about the other active PCs, than anyone else. One can only hope that it doesn't get accidently or unintentionally abused. Also, when it comes to a life-or-death situation, such characters are probably always at least two steps ahead of the others.

[Gimfalisette]

Here's an example of how OOC communication goes bad for you, Myrdryn:

Names in this story have been falsified. Once upon a time in ARM, my character conspired with Amos to kill Malik, our clanmate, and then did kill Malik in secret. We presented a story to the rest of the clan about what had happened, to cover it up, and they believed us. That same RL day, Malik's player told Talia's player (Talia was one of our clannies) over IM that we had murdered Malik, that our cover story was a lie, and furthermore that we had done the deed out of OOC motivation. Talia's player then told me over IM that Malik's player had told her this. Subsequently, and very rapidly, Amos and my character got in extremely serious trouble with some authority figures for having murdered Malik and there were harsh consequences for our characters.

Because I did not know how the truth got to the authority figures, I filed a complaint with the imms so that if OOC communication was the culprit, it would be investigated. I do not know if OOC communication led to or contributed to the consequences that our characters suffered, but because I know that there was OOC communication about the topic between players, that whole situation left me with a bad, sad, untrusting feeling. I doubt that Malik's player only told one person about the situation, and thus I think it's likely that a few people heard from him the rumor that we killed from OOC motivation. I also know that Talia's player had bad and disappointed feelings about it; Talia didn't want to know about it OOCly, and then had to deal with keeping herself and her character very separate.

[Cutthroat]

If IC info is being shared OOCly, I sure as hell don't know anything about it. I've never asked anyone, no one's ever offered anything to me, and that's probably because I'm rarely talking with other players outside of the game other than on the GDB.

I read Thanos' post a few months back and I remember thinking how screwed up that must have been. The character's goals seemed well planned out, but a simple OOC spread of information destroyed any possibility for IC fun. I respect the more goal-oriented players of Arm, but they are hard to accept when it gets to the point that OOC info is being spread so that these players can get an unfair advantage.

Here's what I would say to those who spread IC info OOCly: You should be treating Arm like a book, and anyone else playing Arm is on page 1 of that book. If you respect Arm at all, you wouldn't be spreading IC information about Arm, much like you wouldn't be spreading spoilers of a book.

[Belenos]

The only way to stop the spread of sharing IC info? There's only one solution for me, it's for the Imms to start going undercover and when they catch someone, they ban them for a week, or a month.

That's going to start spreading the fear in the AIM'ers that anyone could be a Staff member and that's really the only way you'll make them stop.

I'll be blunt.  This will never happen.  We do not want an environment of fear and distrust, nor do staff care to be the ooc police.

Human nature is what it is, some people will respect the uniqueness, others won't.  As staff the best we can do is mitigate the effects of this poor behavior.  If you have a reputation of being an ooc monger, you will not be trusted by staff to play sensitive roles.  This is something you should consider as you are tempted to pass on that juicy bit of gossip you just learned.   Generally we know who the people are that spread OOC info. It doesn't take a rocket scientist or an uber sekrt spy to figure it out.   It's a shame really, I know of some remarkable roleplayers that will never find themselves seeing some aspects of the game due to their behavior, it is disappointing.

On the issue of staff playing characters, I think a lot of people are letting their imaginations get the better of them as to how these roles currently work.  Take for example one question we often ask of people interviewing for staff (paraphased)... "How do you feel about the fact that you will never again play a character that is special or be allowed to play certain types of leader characters such as templars?"   Staff members that abuse their knowledge of the game do not survive as staff members.

[edit: fixed typo]

[Tisiphone]

I'll be blunt.  This will never happen.  We do (not) want an environment of fear and distrust, nor do staff care to be the ooc police.

Fixed? I hope?

[Salt Merchant]

On the issue of staff playing characters, I think a lot of people are letting their imaginations get the better of them as to how these roles currently work.  Take for example one question we often ask of people interviewing for staff (paraphased)... "How do you feel about the fact that you will never again play a character that is special or be allowed to play certain types of leader characters such as templars?"   Staff members that abuse their knowledge of the game do not survive as staff members.

I'll provide an example of how this might work.

I played a half-elf that could pass for as human. Looking back on it, I'm not sure it was a wonderful character concept, but it passed the character approval process. There was no clue in this character's description concerning elven ancestry (ears were hidden by hair) nor was elf or half-elf a keyword (I believe I confirmed this after approval by having the character try to look at itself using these keywords). Nor did my character emit clues through emoting or thinking so far as I can recall.

Yet, one day in a tavern, another character simply casually referred to it (directly) in that context as though it were common knowledge. How could this happen? Unless there's some sort of secret half-elf sniffing spell or device that I don't know of, it suggests to me that a staff member was playing that other character and was familiar with my character's race from the staff-level who list. My hypothesis is that the staff member hadn't examined my character closely enough to realize that it could pass for human and had been doing so. But that was that, too late.

Of course, I have no definitive proof that this was in fact the case in this particular incident, but still illustrates the sort of problem that might occur.

[Yam]

On the issue of staff playing characters, I think a lot of people are letting their imaginations get the better of them as to how these roles currently work.  Take for example one question we often ask of people interviewing for staff (paraphased)... "How do you feel about the fact that you will never again play a character that is special or be allowed to play certain types of leader characters such as templars?"   Staff members that abuse their knowledge of the game do not survive as staff members.

I'll provide an example of how this might work.

I played a half-elf that could pass for as human. Looking back on it, I'm not sure it was a wonderful character concept, but it passed the character approval process. There was no clue in this character's description concerning elven ancestry (ears were hidden by hair) nor was elf or half-elf a keyword (I believe I confirmed this after approval by having the character try to look at itself using these keywords). Nor did my character emit clues through emoting or thinking so far as I can recall.

Yet, one day in a tavern, another character simply casually referred to it (directly) in that context as though it were common knowledge. How could this happen? Unless there's some sort of secret half-elf sniffing spell or device that I don't know of, it suggests to me that a staff member was playing that other character and was familiar with my character's race from the staff-level who list. My hypothesis is that the staff member hadn't examined my character closely enough to realize that it could pass for human and had been doing so. But that was that, too late.

Of course, I have no definitive proof that this was in fact the case in this particular incident, but still illustrates the sort of problem that might occur.

Assess <person>.

[NoteworthyFellow]

On the issue of staff playing characters, I think a lot of people are letting their imaginations get the better of them as to how these roles currently work.  Take for example one question we often ask of people interviewing for staff (paraphased)... "How do you feel about the fact that you will never again play a character that is special or be allowed to play certain types of leader characters such as templars?"   Staff members that abuse their knowledge of the game do not survive as staff members.

I'll provide an example of how this might work.

I played a half-elf that could pass for as human. Looking back on it, I'm not sure it was a wonderful character concept, but it passed the character approval process. There was no clue in this character's description concerning elven ancestry (ears were hidden by hair) nor was elf or half-elf a keyword (I believe I confirmed this after approval by having the character try to look at itself using these keywords). Nor did my character emit clues through emoting or thinking so far as I can recall.

Yet, one day in a tavern, another character simply casually referred to it (directly) in that context as though it were common knowledge. How could this happen? Unless there's some sort of secret half-elf sniffing spell or device that I don't know of, it suggests to me that a staff member was playing that other character and was familiar with my character's race from the staff-level who list. My hypothesis is that the staff member hadn't examined my character closely enough to realize that it could pass for human and had been doing so. But that was that, too late.

Of course, I have no definitive proof that this was in fact the case in this particular incident, but still illustrates the sort of problem that might occur.

Assess <person>.

Yup.  Assess -v will reveal race, to a degree.  It's happened to just about every human-like half-elf I've ever played.

[Mood]

On the issue of staff playing characters, I think a lot of people are letting their imaginations get the better of them as to how these roles currently work.  Take for example one question we often ask of people interviewing for staff (paraphased)... "How do you feel about the fact that you will never again play a character that is special or be allowed to play certain types of leader characters such as templars?"   Staff members that abuse their knowledge of the game do not survive as staff members.

I'll provide an example of how this might work.

I played a half-elf that could pass for as human. Looking back on it, I'm not sure it was a wonderful character concept, but it passed the character approval process. There was no clue in this character's description concerning elven ancestry (ears were hidden by hair) nor was elf or half-elf a keyword (I believe I confirmed this after approval by having the character try to look at itself using these keywords). Nor did my character emit clues through emoting or thinking so far as I can recall.

Yet, one day in a tavern, another character simply casually referred to it (directly) in that context as though it were common knowledge. How could this happen? Unless there's some sort of secret half-elf sniffing spell or device that I don't know of, it suggests to me that a staff member was playing that other character and was familiar with my character's race from the staff-level who list. My hypothesis is that the staff member hadn't examined my character closely enough to realize that it could pass for human and had been doing so. But that was that, too late.

Of course, I have no definitive proof that this was in fact the case in this particular incident, but still illustrates the sort of problem that might occur.

Assess <person>.

lmao.

[Salt Merchant]

lmao.

Yeah, yeah. It just shows how much I assess -v people. And that I don't have a network of gaming buddies to ask about these things offline.

[Yam]

lmao.

Yeah, yeah. It just shows how much I assess -v people. And that I don't have a network of gaming buddies to ask about these things offline.

[Archbaron]

On the issue of staff playing characters, I think a lot of people are letting their imaginations get the better of them as to how these roles currently work.  Take for example one question we often ask of people interviewing for staff (paraphased)... "How do you feel about the fact that you will never again play a character that is special or be allowed to play certain types of leader characters such as templars?"   Staff members that abuse their knowledge of the game do not survive as staff members.

I'll provide an example of how this might work.

I played a half-elf that could pass for as human. Looking back on it, I'm not sure it was a wonderful character concept, but it passed the character approval process. There was no clue in this character's description concerning elven ancestry (ears were hidden by hair) nor was elf or half-elf a keyword (I believe I confirmed this after approval by having the character try to look at itself using these keywords). Nor did my character emit clues through emoting or thinking so far as I can recall.

Yet, one day in a tavern, another character simply casually referred to it (directly) in that context as though it were common knowledge. How could this happen? Unless there's some sort of secret half-elf sniffing spell or device that I don't know of, it suggests to me that a staff member was playing that other character and was familiar with my character's race from the staff-level who list. My hypothesis is that the staff member hadn't examined my character closely enough to realize that it could pass for human and had been doing so. But that was that, too late.

Of course, I have no definitive proof that this was in fact the case in this particular incident, but still illustrates the sort of problem that might occur.

Assess <person>.

Amazing.

[RogueGunslinger]

lmao.

Yeah, yeah. It just shows how much I assess -v people. And that I don't have a network of gaming buddies to ask about these things offline.

What?

[Gimfalisette]

Yeah, yeah. It just shows how much I assess -v people. And that I don't have a network of gaming buddies to ask about these things offline.

It's been discussed extensively here on the GDB that assess can be used to determine a half-elf's race; that is, to determine that they are not really human or not really elf. And the imms have stated that assess is IC info. This is definitely not something you can blame on OOC info-sharing.

[Salt Merchant]

Yeah, yeah. It just shows how much I assess -v people. And that I don't have a network of gaming buddies to ask about these things offline.

It's been discussed extensively here on the GDB that assess can be used to determine a half-elf's race; that is, to determine that they are not really human or not really elf. And the imms have stated that assess is IC info. This is definitely not something you can blame on OOC info-sharing.

That was meant as a clever joke. But no one laughed so it's not so clever.

You're really gunning for my tail today. Don't force me to bail out.

[Rahnevyn]

Let's please not derail this thread further.

To everyone, but especially new GDBers: I cringe every time I see anything akin to the phrase "my current character" on the GDB. You should not be talking about your current character, because it can be used to identify who you play. This pollutes the game with (mis)conceptions from other players about characters based on who other players think you are. It can also lead to players (mis)guessing IC info about your character to use in game, which is bad.

Don't talk about your current character to anyone OOCly, not even in general terms. Get in that mindset and most ooc communication problems are solved.