How to educate players about the perils of the OOC sharing of IC info?

[Myrdryn]

This topic comes up a lot.  And we all know that there is no way to completely stop people from talking about the game through out instant messages and other means.  Especially with those of us that love the game and feel so passionately about the game, it's hard not to talk to among other players (people who don't play will just look at us like we're weird right?).  In the end I think that showing people that it is harmful is the most productive way to deal with the problem (rather than punishment).

However talking about important game points, code mechanics and other secret aspects and events in the game can be harmful.  There is an old old post by Thanos that details how sharing of IC information ruined a quest he was running.  It's an old post and kind of weathered and only deals with one situation where sharing of IC info was bad.

In an attempt to update the documentation on the subject, I was hoping that others might have other examples of how this kind of thing can ruin aspects of the game for the players.  In the end I think that showing people that it is harmful is the most productive way to deal with this kind of thing (rather than staff dishing out punishment).

[Tisiphone]

There's the classic example of how learning what the sekrit powers of a guild or templar are makes them less scary and somehow more approachable as something with which to be dealt, rather than something to put the fear of Tek into you.

However, there's also a more oblique one: OOC knowledge-sharing has an aura of authority; if you learn what something is or can do from another player, it seems definitely right. This is problematic both in cases where the information is actually true and those where 'tis actually false; in the former, over time the players involved on both ends run the risk of becoming jaded or starting to see the MUD as a code-base, rather than a world, and in the latter, that compounds with a possible disillusionment, either because something isn't the way it 'should' be - because the player doesn't think that the code is as robust as 'tis, or because something the player thought was very neat and complex ends up not being so.

[Agent_137]

If you learn some super magickal secret about a character you play across from, you now all of a sudden OOCly spot every single clue they drop. Before, how many would you miss? What would you attribute them to? How long would it take you to figure out the truth? Now it's impossible to answer those questions, and you have to just decide if your char will ever find out and when, it's not a natural plot anymore, it's forced and calculated.

The above issue also happens when you learn about super sekret motivations/plans of an IC friend that cross your character's own motivations/plans.

[psionic fungus]

I find the game to be less enjoyable when I just know who the players of other characters around me are. Unfortunately, I think that being educated about sharing OOC information is something that comes with experience.  I just don't think people are likely to listen until something has happened to them that reinforces exactly why not to share IC information over OOC channels.

[Barzalene]

For what it's worth, I had a negative experience in 2003, that five years later, I am still just as frustrated and  bitter about. Enough so, that it still has a negative impact on my feelings about the game. I used to think a little chatting was harmless. I am now sure it isn't. For what that may be worth to anyone.

[UnderSeven]

I think much of the ooc information is shared accidentally.  Where the communication over ooc channels is done in a harmles light and this or that secret just slips.  It's hard to make people realize that harmless occ communication can harm their experience of the game, but it definatley happens.

[Malken]

Let's stop lying to each other for a moment, we all know that there's some players out there who could be considered the google of IC info.

Some of them are even trusted players of our community. (I'm not a saint, but like PF says, it takes time to realize that this is your main reason as to why you start hating the game after a few months, at least, that's what cured me.)

The only way to stop the spread of sharing IC info? There's only one solution for me, it's for the Imms to start going undercover and when they catch someone, they ban them for a week, or a month.

That's going to start spreading the fear in the AIM'ers that anyone could be a Staff member and that's really the only way you'll make them stop.

That old story from Thanos is unfortunately not working at all.

[flurry]

I think the biggest "cost" to the culture of info-spreading outside the game is the loss of mystery, secrets, and discovery.  On an individual level, you can just choose to avoid communicating outside the game, especially with the gossipers and blabbermouths. That only helps so much, though, because you still have to roleplay with the people who are swapping game secrets by ooc means.

The example that comes to mind for me is dealing with characters who have encyclopedic knowledge of the world well beyond all believability.  I can think of one specific character who knew how to get everywhere, knew exactly where to forage for anything, could rattle off the abilities of all flavor of magickers, etc. etc..  You name it, he knew it, and would act surprised that you didn't.  It made me want to avoid dealing with him just because it was so clear his player had made a decision to play Armageddon on "easy mode".  I had not, and that meant not roleplaying with that character.

I really, really dislike playing with seemingly omniscient characters, and I'm sure their existence in the game is largely due to info spread outside of the game.

I would love to see more mystery and intrigue preserved in 2.armageddon, but I fear that the people spreading the info outside the game think it's harmless, and don't realize how much they're affecting the experience for everyone.

[touringCompl3t3]

emote agrees with flurry.  I too have trouble dealing with 'omniscient' characters.

[Salt Merchant]

Let me first say that I don't exchange IC information. This is true simply because I'm not in contact with anyone that plays the game. Nor do I support the offline exchange of OOC information.

Even so, I can see how it's easy to become a bit cynical about this issue when one discovers that the staff have characters in the game as well. As players, they will always possess far more knowledge about the workings of the game and doings within it, as well as about the other active PCs, than anyone else. One can only hope that it doesn't get accidently or unintentionally abused. Also, when it comes to a life-or-death situation, such characters are probably always at least two steps ahead of the others.

[Gimfalisette]

Here's an example of how OOC communication goes bad for you, Myrdryn:

Names in this story have been falsified. Once upon a time in ARM, my character conspired with Amos to kill Malik, our clanmate, and then did kill Malik in secret. We presented a story to the rest of the clan about what had happened, to cover it up, and they believed us. That same RL day, Malik's player told Talia's player (Talia was one of our clannies) over IM that we had murdered Malik, that our cover story was a lie, and furthermore that we had done the deed out of OOC motivation. Talia's player then told me over IM that Malik's player had told her this. Subsequently, and very rapidly, Amos and my character got in extremely serious trouble with some authority figures for having murdered Malik and there were harsh consequences for our characters.

Because I did not know how the truth got to the authority figures, I filed a complaint with the imms so that if OOC communication was the culprit, it would be investigated. I do not know if OOC communication led to or contributed to the consequences that our characters suffered, but because I know that there was OOC communication about the topic between players, that whole situation left me with a bad, sad, untrusting feeling. I doubt that Malik's player only told one person about the situation, and thus I think it's likely that a few people heard from him the rumor that we killed from OOC motivation. I also know that Talia's player had bad and disappointed feelings about it; Talia didn't want to know about it OOCly, and then had to deal with keeping herself and her character very separate.

[Cutthroat]

If IC info is being shared OOCly, I sure as hell don't know anything about it. I've never asked anyone, no one's ever offered anything to me, and that's probably because I'm rarely talking with other players outside of the game other than on the GDB.

I read Thanos' post a few months back and I remember thinking how screwed up that must have been. The character's goals seemed well planned out, but a simple OOC spread of information destroyed any possibility for IC fun. I respect the more goal-oriented players of Arm, but they are hard to accept when it gets to the point that OOC info is being spread so that these players can get an unfair advantage.

Here's what I would say to those who spread IC info OOCly: You should be treating Arm like a book, and anyone else playing Arm is on page 1 of that book. If you respect Arm at all, you wouldn't be spreading IC information about Arm, much like you wouldn't be spreading spoilers of a book.

[Belenos]

The only way to stop the spread of sharing IC info? There's only one solution for me, it's for the Imms to start going undercover and when they catch someone, they ban them for a week, or a month.

That's going to start spreading the fear in the AIM'ers that anyone could be a Staff member and that's really the only way you'll make them stop.

I'll be blunt.  This will never happen.  We do not want an environment of fear and distrust, nor do staff care to be the ooc police.

Human nature is what it is, some people will respect the uniqueness, others won't.  As staff the best we can do is mitigate the effects of this poor behavior.  If you have a reputation of being an ooc monger, you will not be trusted by staff to play sensitive roles.  This is something you should consider as you are tempted to pass on that juicy bit of gossip you just learned.   Generally we know who the people are that spread OOC info. It doesn't take a rocket scientist or an uber sekrt spy to figure it out.   It's a shame really, I know of some remarkable roleplayers that will never find themselves seeing some aspects of the game due to their behavior, it is disappointing.

On the issue of staff playing characters, I think a lot of people are letting their imaginations get the better of them as to how these roles currently work.  Take for example one question we often ask of people interviewing for staff (paraphased)... "How do you feel about the fact that you will never again play a character that is special or be allowed to play certain types of leader characters such as templars?"   Staff members that abuse their knowledge of the game do not survive as staff members.

[edit: fixed typo]

[Tisiphone]

I'll be blunt.  This will never happen.  We do (not) want an environment of fear and distrust, nor do staff care to be the ooc police.

Fixed? I hope?

[Salt Merchant]

On the issue of staff playing characters, I think a lot of people are letting their imaginations get the better of them as to how these roles currently work.  Take for example one question we often ask of people interviewing for staff (paraphased)... "How do you feel about the fact that you will never again play a character that is special or be allowed to play certain types of leader characters such as templars?"   Staff members that abuse their knowledge of the game do not survive as staff members.

I'll provide an example of how this might work.

I played a half-elf that could pass for as human. Looking back on it, I'm not sure it was a wonderful character concept, but it passed the character approval process. There was no clue in this character's description concerning elven ancestry (ears were hidden by hair) nor was elf or half-elf a keyword (I believe I confirmed this after approval by having the character try to look at itself using these keywords). Nor did my character emit clues through emoting or thinking so far as I can recall.

Yet, one day in a tavern, another character simply casually referred to it (directly) in that context as though it were common knowledge. How could this happen? Unless there's some sort of secret half-elf sniffing spell or device that I don't know of, it suggests to me that a staff member was playing that other character and was familiar with my character's race from the staff-level who list. My hypothesis is that the staff member hadn't examined my character closely enough to realize that it could pass for human and had been doing so. But that was that, too late.

Of course, I have no definitive proof that this was in fact the case in this particular incident, but still illustrates the sort of problem that might occur.

[Yam]

On the issue of staff playing characters, I think a lot of people are letting their imaginations get the better of them as to how these roles currently work.  Take for example one question we often ask of people interviewing for staff (paraphased)... "How do you feel about the fact that you will never again play a character that is special or be allowed to play certain types of leader characters such as templars?"   Staff members that abuse their knowledge of the game do not survive as staff members.

I'll provide an example of how this might work.

I played a half-elf that could pass for as human. Looking back on it, I'm not sure it was a wonderful character concept, but it passed the character approval process. There was no clue in this character's description concerning elven ancestry (ears were hidden by hair) nor was elf or half-elf a keyword (I believe I confirmed this after approval by having the character try to look at itself using these keywords). Nor did my character emit clues through emoting or thinking so far as I can recall.

Yet, one day in a tavern, another character simply casually referred to it (directly) in that context as though it were common knowledge. How could this happen? Unless there's some sort of secret half-elf sniffing spell or device that I don't know of, it suggests to me that a staff member was playing that other character and was familiar with my character's race from the staff-level who list. My hypothesis is that the staff member hadn't examined my character closely enough to realize that it could pass for human and had been doing so. But that was that, too late.

Of course, I have no definitive proof that this was in fact the case in this particular incident, but still illustrates the sort of problem that might occur.

Assess <person>.

[NoteworthyFellow]

On the issue of staff playing characters, I think a lot of people are letting their imaginations get the better of them as to how these roles currently work.  Take for example one question we often ask of people interviewing for staff (paraphased)... "How do you feel about the fact that you will never again play a character that is special or be allowed to play certain types of leader characters such as templars?"   Staff members that abuse their knowledge of the game do not survive as staff members.

I'll provide an example of how this might work.

I played a half-elf that could pass for as human. Looking back on it, I'm not sure it was a wonderful character concept, but it passed the character approval process. There was no clue in this character's description concerning elven ancestry (ears were hidden by hair) nor was elf or half-elf a keyword (I believe I confirmed this after approval by having the character try to look at itself using these keywords). Nor did my character emit clues through emoting or thinking so far as I can recall.

Yet, one day in a tavern, another character simply casually referred to it (directly) in that context as though it were common knowledge. How could this happen? Unless there's some sort of secret half-elf sniffing spell or device that I don't know of, it suggests to me that a staff member was playing that other character and was familiar with my character's race from the staff-level who list. My hypothesis is that the staff member hadn't examined my character closely enough to realize that it could pass for human and had been doing so. But that was that, too late.

Of course, I have no definitive proof that this was in fact the case in this particular incident, but still illustrates the sort of problem that might occur.

Assess <person>.

Yup.  Assess -v will reveal race, to a degree.  It's happened to just about every human-like half-elf I've ever played.

[Mood]

On the issue of staff playing characters, I think a lot of people are letting their imaginations get the better of them as to how these roles currently work.  Take for example one question we often ask of people interviewing for staff (paraphased)... "How do you feel about the fact that you will never again play a character that is special or be allowed to play certain types of leader characters such as templars?"   Staff members that abuse their knowledge of the game do not survive as staff members.

I'll provide an example of how this might work.

I played a half-elf that could pass for as human. Looking back on it, I'm not sure it was a wonderful character concept, but it passed the character approval process. There was no clue in this character's description concerning elven ancestry (ears were hidden by hair) nor was elf or half-elf a keyword (I believe I confirmed this after approval by having the character try to look at itself using these keywords). Nor did my character emit clues through emoting or thinking so far as I can recall.

Yet, one day in a tavern, another character simply casually referred to it (directly) in that context as though it were common knowledge. How could this happen? Unless there's some sort of secret half-elf sniffing spell or device that I don't know of, it suggests to me that a staff member was playing that other character and was familiar with my character's race from the staff-level who list. My hypothesis is that the staff member hadn't examined my character closely enough to realize that it could pass for human and had been doing so. But that was that, too late.

Of course, I have no definitive proof that this was in fact the case in this particular incident, but still illustrates the sort of problem that might occur.

Assess <person>.

lmao.

[Salt Merchant]

lmao.

Yeah, yeah. It just shows how much I assess -v people. And that I don't have a network of gaming buddies to ask about these things offline.

[Yam]

lmao.

Yeah, yeah. It just shows how much I assess -v people. And that I don't have a network of gaming buddies to ask about these things offline.

[Archbaron]

On the issue of staff playing characters, I think a lot of people are letting their imaginations get the better of them as to how these roles currently work.  Take for example one question we often ask of people interviewing for staff (paraphased)... "How do you feel about the fact that you will never again play a character that is special or be allowed to play certain types of leader characters such as templars?"   Staff members that abuse their knowledge of the game do not survive as staff members.

I'll provide an example of how this might work.

I played a half-elf that could pass for as human. Looking back on it, I'm not sure it was a wonderful character concept, but it passed the character approval process. There was no clue in this character's description concerning elven ancestry (ears were hidden by hair) nor was elf or half-elf a keyword (I believe I confirmed this after approval by having the character try to look at itself using these keywords). Nor did my character emit clues through emoting or thinking so far as I can recall.

Yet, one day in a tavern, another character simply casually referred to it (directly) in that context as though it were common knowledge. How could this happen? Unless there's some sort of secret half-elf sniffing spell or device that I don't know of, it suggests to me that a staff member was playing that other character and was familiar with my character's race from the staff-level who list. My hypothesis is that the staff member hadn't examined my character closely enough to realize that it could pass for human and had been doing so. But that was that, too late.

Of course, I have no definitive proof that this was in fact the case in this particular incident, but still illustrates the sort of problem that might occur.

Assess <person>.

Amazing.

[RogueGunslinger]

lmao.

Yeah, yeah. It just shows how much I assess -v people. And that I don't have a network of gaming buddies to ask about these things offline.

What?

[Gimfalisette]

Yeah, yeah. It just shows how much I assess -v people. And that I don't have a network of gaming buddies to ask about these things offline.

It's been discussed extensively here on the GDB that assess can be used to determine a half-elf's race; that is, to determine that they are not really human or not really elf. And the imms have stated that assess is IC info. This is definitely not something you can blame on OOC info-sharing.

[Salt Merchant]

Yeah, yeah. It just shows how much I assess -v people. And that I don't have a network of gaming buddies to ask about these things offline.

It's been discussed extensively here on the GDB that assess can be used to determine a half-elf's race; that is, to determine that they are not really human or not really elf. And the imms have stated that assess is IC info. This is definitely not something you can blame on OOC info-sharing.

That was meant as a clever joke. But no one laughed so it's not so clever.

You're really gunning for my tail today. Don't force me to bail out.

[Rahnevyn]

Let's please not derail this thread further.

To everyone, but especially new GDBers: I cringe every time I see anything akin to the phrase "my current character" on the GDB. You should not be talking about your current character, because it can be used to identify who you play. This pollutes the game with (mis)conceptions from other players about characters based on who other players think you are. It can also lead to players (mis)guessing IC info about your character to use in game, which is bad.

Don't talk about your current character to anyone OOCly, not even in general terms. Get in that mindset and most ooc communication problems are solved.

[Doppelganger]

In the end I think that showing people that it is harmful is the most productive way to deal with this kind of thing (rather than staff dishing out punishment).

With due respect, I wonder how many years should pass before you realise that your way of thinking is very noble, purely humane, totally Noble prize worthy and does not solve anything. In other words, it's anything but productive.

I'll be blunt.  This will never happen.  We do not want an environment of fear and distrust, nor do staff care to be the ooc police.

Generally we know who the people are that spread OOC info. It's a shame really, I know of some remarkable roleplayers that will never find themselves seeing some aspects of the game due to their behavior, it is disappointing.

Which part should I trust?  Are you vigilant and judicative or white and fluffy?

[Qzzrbl]

Whap 'em in the nose with a newspaper every time something IC slips out.

[NoteworthyFellow]

I'll be blunt.  This will never happen.  We do not want an environment of fear and distrust, nor do staff care to be the ooc police.

Generally we know who the people are that spread OOC info. It's a shame really, I know of some remarkable roleplayers that will never find themselves seeing some aspects of the game due to their behavior, it is disappointing.

Which part should I trust?  Are you vigilant and judicative or white and fluffy?

I believe what you should trust is a fairly reasonable mix between the two: the staff won't actively seek out or lay traps for OOC info spreaders, but they will tend to find out one way or another, and their trust in that person will be permanently damaged.

[FiveDisgruntledMonkeysWit]

The biggest problem with talking with people outside of the game, or sharing IC info, is that you're not always in control of what IC info gets shared. And once it's read, you can't unread it.

Once I was playing a gemmed magicker on the CAM. Somebody got my AIM screen name from the clan board, and started sending me messages. I'm okay with chatting with people from Arm, but I draw the line on talking about anything technical or anything currently happening in-game (besides vague, "Oh shit, this is so cool, I'm having a lot of fun right now, wish I could tell you about it"). Unfortunately, this dumbass decides (completely unsolicited, mind you) to start spouting off spell names, how close he is to branching, describing the spell tree, and how he can't wait until he gets the Mind Rape spell all drovians get...

I was AFK briefly, and when I returned, I saw all this spell information on the screen. I told the fucker to shut up immediately, and he did (after deciding to mention one last spell, just to be a douche). He wasn't being openly malicious; he assumed that because my current character was a 'gicker, I must've known most of this stuff. But I didn't. And a little part of the mystery of the game died for me as a result, and that's something I'll never get back.

Whoever you are, thanks a lot, dillweed.

Most of the code information and IC information that gets spread via OOC means, I think, is spread without any real malice. Instead, it's just one person assuming that something is 'common knowledge' when it definitely isn't. The only answer is to not share code information PERIOD, and to only share IC information that is available in the documentation or on the GDB. Venture anywhere else, and you're bound to run into something you don't want to hear sooner or later.

[Belenos]

I'll be blunt.  This will never happen.  We do not want an environment of fear and distrust, nor do staff care to be the ooc police.

Generally we know who the people are that spread OOC info. It's a shame really, I know of some remarkable roleplayers that will never find themselves seeing some aspects of the game due to their behavior, it is disappointing.

Which part should I trust?  Are you vigilant and judicative or white and fluffy?

People tend to be their own worst enemies.  When we see certain behaviors in the game it doesn't take a genius to draw conclusions. If we see something that concerns us, we will generally ask the parties about it.  Also consider this, when people are out passing information not everyone is a willing participant, take the type of experience angry monkey outlined above.  We do receive emails, not in every case, but enough to get a fuller picture. 

One of the biggest joys about this game is discovering stuff.  One of the biggest drawbacks to  being a staff member is that you end up knowing everything, there is little that is a mystery.  You would be surprised how much that diminishes the experience.  When you pass on information outside of the game, you cheapen the experience for the people you are sharing it with.

[LoD]

Perhaps a better question to ask would be directly to those players who have, at some point in their time playing Armageddon, divulged IC information to someone OOCly -- what would have made you think twice about doing so besides being punished?

Would there be a resource, a compilation of testimonials, an expanded group of right/wrong examples, anything that would have made you reconsider your actions other than perhaps growing up and realizing how it hurts people months or years down the road?  Was there something that you could've received in tandem with the punishment (a letter, links to certain pages reinforcing the point, etc...) that would've made the point really hit home?

Or is the only defense truly for players to vehemently resist any and all OOC communication with their fellow players in fear that some tidbit of IC information will slip through and/or a relationship of unhealthy OOC communication will develop?  Certainly this is a way and one that many people practice, but is there another approach or method that would help?

-LoD

[staggerlee]

An outlet through which you can share your excitement without divulging ic info.

Honestly, when I started MUDing I was awful for that.  It wasn't because I thought it was harmless, or wanted to ruin the game or give away secrets. It was because I was excited and wanted to share my experience.
"Oh my god! I found the coolest thing in _____" "I branched! I branched! look at all these super cool skills I got!"   or just play "Shit! I tried to go exploring, and a _____ totally came out of nowhere and one shotted me!"

[NoteworthyFellow]

An outlet through which you can share your excitement without divulging ic info.

Honestly, when I started MUDing I was awful for that.  It wasn't because I thought it was harmless, or wanted to ruin the game or give away secrets. It was because I was excited and wanted to share my experience.
"Oh my god! I found the coolest thing in _____" "I branched! I branched! look at all these super cool skills I got!"   or just play "Shit! I tried to go exploring, and a _____ totally came out of nowhere and one shotted me!"

I just had an experience like this very recently.  I wanted so badly to IM a fellow Arm player and go, "HOLY SHIT YOU WON'T BELIEVE WHAT JUST HAPPENED TO ME."  I mean, the urge was nearly overwhelming.  I didn't, but man, I came pretty close.  Instead, I settled for sending kudos to involved parties.

[jhunter]

Unfortunately I think the only real way is for it to happen to someone and have it mess up their experience with the game, at least at that time. People can tell you a million times but the only real way to know for certain how bad it sucks is to go through it, whether it was caused by someone else doing it involving you or by your own decision.

[FantasyWriter]

Hmmm...

I think it is very possible to talk to people from the game outa the game without exchanging IC info.
Why:

• 1. Helping newbies with syntax and what-not too keep ingame OOC comments to a minimum. (I've brought sever first time mudders to Arm.
• 2. As said before, These are the only people in the world you can talk to about arm, and they not think you should be institutionalized
• 3. Coordnating: THe way CAN"T tell you rather or not people or online. PLaying times for non-clanners.  If something happens IRL that takes you away from your glan/friends/associates. (sick, not goona play for a RL week) you can let someone know to make up an IC story of you beeing out of town for a few weeks. So you don't get back and all of your stuff has been redistributed or sold.

It is true that some players abuse this, but I don't think it something than can be fairly policed, or even should be, either.  In the end, it comes down to the question in the original post: How to educate people. This post is a good start. If you do talk to people IRL from the game, watch them, let then know if you think they are crossing the line, they may have no idea. If you don't talk to players IRL, not really much you can do to help but complain, and I don't think that is very productive. You can't educate those with whom you have no contact.

-FW

[LoD]

An outlet through which you can share your excitement without divulging ic info.

I would wager this is one of the major reasons OOC communications begin, as an innocent (but not harmless) and completely understandable need for someone to express their excitement for something that has happened in the game.

With that in mind, are there any such outlets that would be suitable without risking developing unhealthy OOC habits or divulging IC information accidentally?  RL friends will talk about such things because if both of them find Armageddon a hobby of theirs, it will be near impossible for them not to enjoy what the other has to say about their experiences.  But what about people that have no RL friends playing the game?

There's no official outlet for such discussion, and so it seems that players who do want to gab about their fun experiences are forced to seek out fellow players through instant messengers, chat rooms, etc...  Are there any possible outlets, or this behavior doomed to repeat itself until the end of time?

The only thing I could think of that might work would be an Imm or Imm sponsored contact that could serve as that outlet, funneling OOC communication to someone that already knows it or won't be ill-affected by knowing it and who has the game's best interests at heart so they can simultaneously offer advice and help to the players.  However, Imms already have a lot on their plate without being assaulted by a band of rabid Arm fanatics wanting to jabber about their latest "OMG!" experience, and finding someone who has the Imm's trust, but doesn't have an active interest in the current game dynamic is unlikely to happen frequently, if at all.

Most people are one or the other.

Does anyone else have ideas concerning potential outlets that might help curb some of that behavior?  Or is it a fool's errand to even try?

-LoD

[staggerlee]

I think that to some extent Kudos can serve that function.  I don't see anything wrong with sending out an excited "OMG that was the most fun scene ever!" But it's still not going to 100% fill that void.

[Shoka Windrunner]

LOD-

I don't think there is such a way to do it.  Anyone who doesn't play arm...well they are not going to understand a word you said.  Kind of like trying to talk about a video game or a pen and paper RPG campaign.  If they aren't into it.  They are not going to really care.  And if they listen and they find it interesting, then they will probably end up playing Arm and already be armed with IC information.

Short of what you said...the Imms could say okay.  We trust this person, they have a bunch of karma, play their characters well and don't use OOC information.  We will set them up as a 'bragging outlet'.  Or even the Imms themselves, but I'm sure they don't want to hear it all the time.  They are busy and such without being the gossip bees too.  So I don't know.  Maybe the Imms can say okay...you can brag to LoD because he is a trusted player and even though he knows where everything in the game is and all the little secrets and plots and stuff, he doesn't abuse that ICly. 

But...really there isn't anyway to do it.  Because you want that reaction from others that they are just as excited as you.  And a pet doesn't really care much and you aren't going to get the psychosomatic response you crave to feed off of.  (In my experience)  Probably my biggest problem.  My three year old son gets excited when I tell him a story, but I have to cut most of the good parts out, (I make it into a fairy tale story sometimes just to share it, so it's all G and stuff, which Arm usually doesn't translate into)  so it's still unsatisfying.   

Yeah...maybe that's weird.  But you want to talk about this stuff. 

I've even found that people who don't play Arm but understand about RPG's and such still don't want to hear about Arm.  Cause they have no reference to see it and they haven't experienced it.

So...just the downside of arm basically.  You have to wait a year to even talk about something cool.

[Myrdryn]

In the end I think that showing people that it is harmful is the most productive way to deal with this kind of thing (rather than staff dishing out punishment).

With due respect, I wonder how many years should pass before you realise that your way of thinking is very noble, purely humane, totally Noble prize worthy and does not solve anything. In other words, it's anything but productive.

We do punish people for sharing and abusing IC info.  But my point is that we'd rather other ways rather than just punshment.  I don't think any of the staff wants to punish players, and I don't think any of the players like to be punished.  In some cases people don't even understand sharing IC info is bad, so punishment just ends up making the person angry and doesn't help.  And it is my opinion that if players genuinely respect the game and their other players, and understand the perils of sharing information, they wouldn't do it.

But punishment isn't something we're going to rule out either.  Some people are just malicious and don't care about their peers.  For these people, they do punishment.  But there's no telling how much damage can be done because of it.

It's better to take preventative measures than it is to deal with each person individually.  The alternative is creating a police state where staff members are on constant watch for those cheating and breaking the rules, indiscriminately tossing out punishment and all staff members become giant assholes.

[Twilight]

I find it a bit hard to comment as to how things are currently, as the only time I've interacted with other players outside these forums was as a helper that was hardly ever used, one APM, about three hours on ISCA and three minutes in IRC.

However, I will say that it has been allowed to happen.  First there was ISCA.  Then when the boards were set up, they allowed people to post contact details like IM handles, not to mention board PM's.  In the desire to create and maintain the community of Arm players, outlets were made to create private communities in addition to the public one on these boards.  Not really being a part of that community, its probably easy for me to dismiss it, and wish that it had been made a bit harder to communicate outside the public community of the boards.  Not that they are perfect, I learn things here all the time I didn't know, and probably unfortunately give things away as well.  But at least it generally isn't blatant, and you can always twit someone.

In an online, faceless environment, people are going to do what brings them enjoyment.  I enjoy discovering the little quirks of the code and will openly admit if the RP environment was the same, but the code wasn't up to Arm's standard, I wouldn't be here.  I enjoy the RP, but not all my enjoyment of this game comes from it.  At the one APM I attended, there were some pretty open conversations about stuff, and I will admit, its fun.  The Arm player community was, as far as I can tell, encouraged because people enjoyed being a part of it.  In fact, based on comments I've seen, some people enjoy the game, but a great deal (perhaps more) of their enjoyment comes from being a part of the community.  Some people are going to enjoy spreading OOC information.  In creating the community as it currently exists, the tools have been made available for them to do so.  As long as the methods of OOC suppression rely on volunatary self-restraint, those people who enjoy spreading OOC information (kind of like the APM conversations I imagine, those were FUN) are going to continue to do so, and currently have the means to do so.

We are not going to be able to tackle people's sources of enjoyment.  I play the game how I enjoy playing the game, pretty much without regards to changes in karma or how people view me.  Which is probably circa 1998 levels of RP'ness, I'd say below today's standards.  It doesn't bother me, I enjoy how I play.  I'd encourage people to impact the means for OOC communication, rather than the motivation for it.  Of course, I wouldn't mind if the community outside the board ceased to exist.  Your mileage may vary.

[Zira]

One word. Parents. Seriously. Twice this morning alone, I got up out of my chair, -while logged in- and shared a bunch of IC info with my mom. The harm? None. She hardly knows how to work the comp, barely understands a bit of the Arm speak (so I auto-translate). In fact, she probably just ignores it, and nods in all the right places... but, I'm still satisfied.

Quite simply, if you must share, share with somebody that does a good job of pretending to listen, when they really just wanna get back to watching their soaps. Works wonders, and she never tells me to shut up (unlike my best friend)


That aside... that one year thing is a pain in the ass. I should just stop reading the GDB for a year, so I can actually join in the conversations around here.

PS: Forgot to mention, she doesn't know a damn about telnetting or connecting to a MUD, :p

[spicemustflow]

PS: Forgot to mention, she doesn't know a damn about telnetting or connecting to a MUD, :p

That's what you think, in fact she's ruining all of your plots when you're not looking. I wonder if the poor woman is worried after all your talk of desert elves and god kings.

[Ourla]

One word. Parents. Seriously.

Ha!  Nice.  Little kids work great too, if you just have to get your brag on.  They're highly impressed even by stories of your PC falling off of high places and going hunting.