How to educate players about the perils of the OOC sharing of IC info?

[Doppelganger]

In the end I think that showing people that it is harmful is the most productive way to deal with this kind of thing (rather than staff dishing out punishment).

With due respect, I wonder how many years should pass before you realise that your way of thinking is very noble, purely humane, totally Noble prize worthy and does not solve anything. In other words, it's anything but productive.

I'll be blunt.  This will never happen.  We do not want an environment of fear and distrust, nor do staff care to be the ooc police.

Generally we know who the people are that spread OOC info. It's a shame really, I know of some remarkable roleplayers that will never find themselves seeing some aspects of the game due to their behavior, it is disappointing.

Which part should I trust?  Are you vigilant and judicative or white and fluffy?

[Qzzrbl]

Whap 'em in the nose with a newspaper every time something IC slips out.

[NoteworthyFellow]

I'll be blunt.  This will never happen.  We do not want an environment of fear and distrust, nor do staff care to be the ooc police.

Generally we know who the people are that spread OOC info. It's a shame really, I know of some remarkable roleplayers that will never find themselves seeing some aspects of the game due to their behavior, it is disappointing.

Which part should I trust?  Are you vigilant and judicative or white and fluffy?

I believe what you should trust is a fairly reasonable mix between the two: the staff won't actively seek out or lay traps for OOC info spreaders, but they will tend to find out one way or another, and their trust in that person will be permanently damaged.

[FiveDisgruntledMonkeysWit]

The biggest problem with talking with people outside of the game, or sharing IC info, is that you're not always in control of what IC info gets shared. And once it's read, you can't unread it.

Once I was playing a gemmed magicker on the CAM. Somebody got my AIM screen name from the clan board, and started sending me messages. I'm okay with chatting with people from Arm, but I draw the line on talking about anything technical or anything currently happening in-game (besides vague, "Oh shit, this is so cool, I'm having a lot of fun right now, wish I could tell you about it"). Unfortunately, this dumbass decides (completely unsolicited, mind you) to start spouting off spell names, how close he is to branching, describing the spell tree, and how he can't wait until he gets the Mind Rape spell all drovians get...

I was AFK briefly, and when I returned, I saw all this spell information on the screen. I told the fucker to shut up immediately, and he did (after deciding to mention one last spell, just to be a douche). He wasn't being openly malicious; he assumed that because my current character was a 'gicker, I must've known most of this stuff. But I didn't. And a little part of the mystery of the game died for me as a result, and that's something I'll never get back.

Whoever you are, thanks a lot, dillweed.

Most of the code information and IC information that gets spread via OOC means, I think, is spread without any real malice. Instead, it's just one person assuming that something is 'common knowledge' when it definitely isn't. The only answer is to not share code information PERIOD, and to only share IC information that is available in the documentation or on the GDB. Venture anywhere else, and you're bound to run into something you don't want to hear sooner or later.

[Belenos]

I'll be blunt.  This will never happen.  We do not want an environment of fear and distrust, nor do staff care to be the ooc police.

Generally we know who the people are that spread OOC info. It's a shame really, I know of some remarkable roleplayers that will never find themselves seeing some aspects of the game due to their behavior, it is disappointing.

Which part should I trust?  Are you vigilant and judicative or white and fluffy?

People tend to be their own worst enemies.  When we see certain behaviors in the game it doesn't take a genius to draw conclusions. If we see something that concerns us, we will generally ask the parties about it.  Also consider this, when people are out passing information not everyone is a willing participant, take the type of experience angry monkey outlined above.  We do receive emails, not in every case, but enough to get a fuller picture. 

One of the biggest joys about this game is discovering stuff.  One of the biggest drawbacks to  being a staff member is that you end up knowing everything, there is little that is a mystery.  You would be surprised how much that diminishes the experience.  When you pass on information outside of the game, you cheapen the experience for the people you are sharing it with.

[LoD]

Perhaps a better question to ask would be directly to those players who have, at some point in their time playing Armageddon, divulged IC information to someone OOCly -- what would have made you think twice about doing so besides being punished?

Would there be a resource, a compilation of testimonials, an expanded group of right/wrong examples, anything that would have made you reconsider your actions other than perhaps growing up and realizing how it hurts people months or years down the road?  Was there something that you could've received in tandem with the punishment (a letter, links to certain pages reinforcing the point, etc...) that would've made the point really hit home?

Or is the only defense truly for players to vehemently resist any and all OOC communication with their fellow players in fear that some tidbit of IC information will slip through and/or a relationship of unhealthy OOC communication will develop?  Certainly this is a way and one that many people practice, but is there another approach or method that would help?

-LoD

[staggerlee]

An outlet through which you can share your excitement without divulging ic info.

Honestly, when I started MUDing I was awful for that.  It wasn't because I thought it was harmless, or wanted to ruin the game or give away secrets. It was because I was excited and wanted to share my experience.
"Oh my god! I found the coolest thing in _____" "I branched! I branched! look at all these super cool skills I got!"   or just play "Shit! I tried to go exploring, and a _____ totally came out of nowhere and one shotted me!"

[NoteworthyFellow]

An outlet through which you can share your excitement without divulging ic info.

Honestly, when I started MUDing I was awful for that.  It wasn't because I thought it was harmless, or wanted to ruin the game or give away secrets. It was because I was excited and wanted to share my experience.
"Oh my god! I found the coolest thing in _____" "I branched! I branched! look at all these super cool skills I got!"   or just play "Shit! I tried to go exploring, and a _____ totally came out of nowhere and one shotted me!"

I just had an experience like this very recently.  I wanted so badly to IM a fellow Arm player and go, "HOLY SHIT YOU WON'T BELIEVE WHAT JUST HAPPENED TO ME."  I mean, the urge was nearly overwhelming.  I didn't, but man, I came pretty close.  Instead, I settled for sending kudos to involved parties.

[jhunter]

Unfortunately I think the only real way is for it to happen to someone and have it mess up their experience with the game, at least at that time. People can tell you a million times but the only real way to know for certain how bad it sucks is to go through it, whether it was caused by someone else doing it involving you or by your own decision.

[FantasyWriter]

Hmmm...

I think it is very possible to talk to people from the game outa the game without exchanging IC info.
Why:

• 1. Helping newbies with syntax and what-not too keep ingame OOC comments to a minimum. (I've brought sever first time mudders to Arm.
• 2. As said before, These are the only people in the world you can talk to about arm, and they not think you should be institutionalized
• 3. Coordnating: THe way CAN"T tell you rather or not people or online. PLaying times for non-clanners.  If something happens IRL that takes you away from your glan/friends/associates. (sick, not goona play for a RL week) you can let someone know to make up an IC story of you beeing out of town for a few weeks. So you don't get back and all of your stuff has been redistributed or sold.

It is true that some players abuse this, but I don't think it something than can be fairly policed, or even should be, either.  In the end, it comes down to the question in the original post: How to educate people. This post is a good start. If you do talk to people IRL from the game, watch them, let then know if you think they are crossing the line, they may have no idea. If you don't talk to players IRL, not really much you can do to help but complain, and I don't think that is very productive. You can't educate those with whom you have no contact.

-FW

[LoD]

An outlet through which you can share your excitement without divulging ic info.

I would wager this is one of the major reasons OOC communications begin, as an innocent (but not harmless) and completely understandable need for someone to express their excitement for something that has happened in the game.

With that in mind, are there any such outlets that would be suitable without risking developing unhealthy OOC habits or divulging IC information accidentally?  RL friends will talk about such things because if both of them find Armageddon a hobby of theirs, it will be near impossible for them not to enjoy what the other has to say about their experiences.  But what about people that have no RL friends playing the game?

There's no official outlet for such discussion, and so it seems that players who do want to gab about their fun experiences are forced to seek out fellow players through instant messengers, chat rooms, etc...  Are there any possible outlets, or this behavior doomed to repeat itself until the end of time?

The only thing I could think of that might work would be an Imm or Imm sponsored contact that could serve as that outlet, funneling OOC communication to someone that already knows it or won't be ill-affected by knowing it and who has the game's best interests at heart so they can simultaneously offer advice and help to the players.  However, Imms already have a lot on their plate without being assaulted by a band of rabid Arm fanatics wanting to jabber about their latest "OMG!" experience, and finding someone who has the Imm's trust, but doesn't have an active interest in the current game dynamic is unlikely to happen frequently, if at all.

Most people are one or the other.

Does anyone else have ideas concerning potential outlets that might help curb some of that behavior?  Or is it a fool's errand to even try?

-LoD

[staggerlee]

I think that to some extent Kudos can serve that function.  I don't see anything wrong with sending out an excited "OMG that was the most fun scene ever!" But it's still not going to 100% fill that void.

[Shoka Windrunner]

LOD-

I don't think there is such a way to do it.  Anyone who doesn't play arm...well they are not going to understand a word you said.  Kind of like trying to talk about a video game or a pen and paper RPG campaign.  If they aren't into it.  They are not going to really care.  And if they listen and they find it interesting, then they will probably end up playing Arm and already be armed with IC information.

Short of what you said...the Imms could say okay.  We trust this person, they have a bunch of karma, play their characters well and don't use OOC information.  We will set them up as a 'bragging outlet'.  Or even the Imms themselves, but I'm sure they don't want to hear it all the time.  They are busy and such without being the gossip bees too.  So I don't know.  Maybe the Imms can say okay...you can brag to LoD because he is a trusted player and even though he knows where everything in the game is and all the little secrets and plots and stuff, he doesn't abuse that ICly. 

But...really there isn't anyway to do it.  Because you want that reaction from others that they are just as excited as you.  And a pet doesn't really care much and you aren't going to get the psychosomatic response you crave to feed off of.  (In my experience)  Probably my biggest problem.  My three year old son gets excited when I tell him a story, but I have to cut most of the good parts out, (I make it into a fairy tale story sometimes just to share it, so it's all G and stuff, which Arm usually doesn't translate into)  so it's still unsatisfying.   

Yeah...maybe that's weird.  But you want to talk about this stuff. 

I've even found that people who don't play Arm but understand about RPG's and such still don't want to hear about Arm.  Cause they have no reference to see it and they haven't experienced it.

So...just the downside of arm basically.  You have to wait a year to even talk about something cool.

[Myrdryn]

In the end I think that showing people that it is harmful is the most productive way to deal with this kind of thing (rather than staff dishing out punishment).

With due respect, I wonder how many years should pass before you realise that your way of thinking is very noble, purely humane, totally Noble prize worthy and does not solve anything. In other words, it's anything but productive.

We do punish people for sharing and abusing IC info.  But my point is that we'd rather other ways rather than just punshment.  I don't think any of the staff wants to punish players, and I don't think any of the players like to be punished.  In some cases people don't even understand sharing IC info is bad, so punishment just ends up making the person angry and doesn't help.  And it is my opinion that if players genuinely respect the game and their other players, and understand the perils of sharing information, they wouldn't do it.

But punishment isn't something we're going to rule out either.  Some people are just malicious and don't care about their peers.  For these people, they do punishment.  But there's no telling how much damage can be done because of it.

It's better to take preventative measures than it is to deal with each person individually.  The alternative is creating a police state where staff members are on constant watch for those cheating and breaking the rules, indiscriminately tossing out punishment and all staff members become giant assholes.

[Twilight]

I find it a bit hard to comment as to how things are currently, as the only time I've interacted with other players outside these forums was as a helper that was hardly ever used, one APM, about three hours on ISCA and three minutes in IRC.

However, I will say that it has been allowed to happen.  First there was ISCA.  Then when the boards were set up, they allowed people to post contact details like IM handles, not to mention board PM's.  In the desire to create and maintain the community of Arm players, outlets were made to create private communities in addition to the public one on these boards.  Not really being a part of that community, its probably easy for me to dismiss it, and wish that it had been made a bit harder to communicate outside the public community of the boards.  Not that they are perfect, I learn things here all the time I didn't know, and probably unfortunately give things away as well.  But at least it generally isn't blatant, and you can always twit someone.

In an online, faceless environment, people are going to do what brings them enjoyment.  I enjoy discovering the little quirks of the code and will openly admit if the RP environment was the same, but the code wasn't up to Arm's standard, I wouldn't be here.  I enjoy the RP, but not all my enjoyment of this game comes from it.  At the one APM I attended, there were some pretty open conversations about stuff, and I will admit, its fun.  The Arm player community was, as far as I can tell, encouraged because people enjoyed being a part of it.  In fact, based on comments I've seen, some people enjoy the game, but a great deal (perhaps more) of their enjoyment comes from being a part of the community.  Some people are going to enjoy spreading OOC information.  In creating the community as it currently exists, the tools have been made available for them to do so.  As long as the methods of OOC suppression rely on volunatary self-restraint, those people who enjoy spreading OOC information (kind of like the APM conversations I imagine, those were FUN) are going to continue to do so, and currently have the means to do so.

We are not going to be able to tackle people's sources of enjoyment.  I play the game how I enjoy playing the game, pretty much without regards to changes in karma or how people view me.  Which is probably circa 1998 levels of RP'ness, I'd say below today's standards.  It doesn't bother me, I enjoy how I play.  I'd encourage people to impact the means for OOC communication, rather than the motivation for it.  Of course, I wouldn't mind if the community outside the board ceased to exist.  Your mileage may vary.

[Zira]

One word. Parents. Seriously. Twice this morning alone, I got up out of my chair, -while logged in- and shared a bunch of IC info with my mom. The harm? None. She hardly knows how to work the comp, barely understands a bit of the Arm speak (so I auto-translate). In fact, she probably just ignores it, and nods in all the right places... but, I'm still satisfied.

Quite simply, if you must share, share with somebody that does a good job of pretending to listen, when they really just wanna get back to watching their soaps. Works wonders, and she never tells me to shut up (unlike my best friend)


That aside... that one year thing is a pain in the ass. I should just stop reading the GDB for a year, so I can actually join in the conversations around here.

PS: Forgot to mention, she doesn't know a damn about telnetting or connecting to a MUD, :p

[spicemustflow]

PS: Forgot to mention, she doesn't know a damn about telnetting or connecting to a MUD, :p

That's what you think, in fact she's ruining all of your plots when you're not looking. I wonder if the poor woman is worried after all your talk of desert elves and god kings.

[Ourla]

One word. Parents. Seriously.

Ha!  Nice.  Little kids work great too, if you just have to get your brag on.  They're highly impressed even by stories of your PC falling off of high places and going hunting.