Find out IC - what does this term actually mean?

[Incognito]

"Find out IC or ICLY" and "Find out IG or IGLY" are two very common terms one might come across, on the boards.

Some players like to use the term liberally on the boards, and others hate to use them.

People who post queries on the board and get one of these as a reply - probably find it as an "incomplete or insufficient" reply, or on the other extreme, might even think that the poster is trying to be a smart ass.

New players might find the terms confusing.

The truth of the matter is, players, over the course of their playing experience on Arm, might come up with various queries, on different subjects, dealing in a variety of detail (or not); and sometimes, it is not possible (or suitable) to give an answer to such queries on the GDB, for the sole reason that that particular piece of information might not be something which is widely known in the World of Zalanthas.

Posting a succint and to-the-point reply to every such query would possibly lead to the de-mystification of many nuances of the World, that are supposed to be discovered and learnt in-game.

If you are one of the many players who've asked Staff or Players for clarification on a certain topic, and ended up getting one of the above-mentioned replies, you should not be disheartened, discouraged or peeved off, or, have a feeling that your query is being 'passed off' without getting it's due response.

On the contrary, you should take it as an IC challenge, to discover the reply to your query in-game. In 9 out of 10 cases, when you do end up finding your answer, you will realise why it is not widely circulated - as a generic reply on the GDB forums. It also means that you, as a PC have hit upon a subject which requires your PC to use their in-game resources and wit, to ferret out information which others in the game might not have.

Questions might range from the random, generic or even highly-specific, for example:
Why are there no stars in the Zalanthan sky?
Where can I find metal?
Is it better to use one weapon skill over another? If so, why?
What can this spell do?
What is the recipe for this item?
What can I make out of this material?
....etc.

A few suggestions to getting a "find out IC" question answered:
1) Make it your objective, so Staff members are aware that you as a PC are trying to figure out this particular thing in-game.
2) Make enquiries in-game, to PCs as well as NPCs, finding out the right PCs and NPCs to ask the respective queries, is also part of the process.
3) If applicable, email your clan IMM and let them know your PC is trying to figure out such and such information in-game, and would like their help.
4) If it is something generic, your best bet might be to ask the Helpers, instead of posting it on the boards. Chances are, they might give you a more clearer line of action to follow, without revealing IC information.

Getting to discover the plethora of culture, lore, secrets and mechanics of the game, are some of the best moments you as a player will have in this game. If they are served up on a platter, so to speak, on the GDB forums, and known to everyone, the game would immediately loose it's charm and mystery.

Above all, have patience, and enjoy your PC. The answers will come crawling out to you sooner or later, either from other PCs, or through Staff help, if your PC has reason enough to get access to that information. In certain cases, it might not be realistic for your PC to learn something in-game, and in such cases, you'll probably find that out within the game itself too.

I hope this helps out any confused or frustrated players who might feel that their queries aren't being responded to, in the correct depth, detail or as fast as they would like.

[Tisiphone]

Further, there may be questions which can be answered individually but should not be posted on the boards; for these, feel free to use the request tool or message a helper.

[Lizzie]

Every single one of those questions can be addressed -without- resorting to "Find out IC" (translated to, you are a noob, this is a wall. Please bang your head against this spot. Right here. And repeat until your face bleeds. kthxbai)

It also means that you, as a PC have hit upon a subject which requires your PC to use their in-game resources and wit, to ferret out information which others in the game might not have.

Questions might range from the random, generic or even highly-specific, for example:
Why are there no stars in the Zalanthan sky?
Where can I find metal?
Is it better to use one weapon skill over another? If so, why?
What can this spell do?
What is the recipe for this item?
What can I make out of this material?
....etc.

Why are there no stars in the Zalanthan sky?

There are stars, and your character would know this. Your character would not necessarily know what those stars -are- exactly, but would definitely be cognizant of the fact that there are tiny little sparks of light waaaaaay up in the sky. He would also know that the daytime sky is -red- and not blue. But that's just a by the way.

Where can I find metal?

Your character would know that finding metal is not something generally known about. Your character -would- have heard of the Copper Wars, and would know that "copper" is the name of a metal. Your character would probably not know what copper is used for, and would generally be in awe of it if ever witnessed first hand. Your character would probably also know that a steel dragon is planted outside the gates of Allanak but again would have no idea where the metal came from, and would not be very likely to ask someone. It is commonly assumed that anyone who might know where it comes from, ain't telling. So your character is not likely to ever find out - though its discovery might - possibly - be possible. Some day. Maybe. But not likely.

Is it better to use one weapon over another? If so, why?

Well the "sap" skill requires a blunt object. The "backstab" skill requires a stabbing object. Other than that, there are "cultural norms" in both north and south, and some tribes have traditions of using one type over another. But there are no "+5" weapons, so really it's a matter of preference, combined with the expertise required to produce any given weapon. For example, a "generic bone dagger" might stab perfectly sufficient for a well-skilled person's needs, though an "obsidian-bladed" dagger might do the same job quicker, in the well-skilled person's hands. However, in a novice's hands, neither will be the "best" because it requires skill to use, not just quality of blade.

What can this spell do?

The nature of magick is intentionally mysterious. Some characters might be more often exposed to magicks than others, but most are not exposed to them on a regular basis. Even magickers are prone to discovering new talents of their own, and with careful exploration and experimentation, might learn what their new-found powers do. Unfortunately due to the mysterious nature of magicks, it isn't appropriate to discuss on the GDB. If you feel there is a bug with your magicks, or some sort of coding error in that you aren't capable of moving further with your skills list, please e-mail or use the request tool to notify the staff.

What is the recipe for this item?

The syntax for discovering recipes is "analyze." You will find it on your skills list in the crafting section. You can't analyze something that isn't in your inventory (seen when you type INV), so you won't be able to use that command on items listed in an NPC's shop. However, it's more than likely that there are other crafters who can do similar things, and attempting to seek them out and interacting with them will be beneficial not only to your coded skill, but also to nurture your roleplaying enjoyment.

What can I make out of this material?

The syntax for that would be "craft <item>" Bear in mind you can sometimes combine items to make new items, for example "craft brick brick brick carpet carpet roof" to build a house.. but you must have all items in your inventory. Some tools are useful both code-wise and RP-wise in the experimentation of crafting; to use them, have them either wielded or held (ep/es).

All of the above answers are OOC information, all of the above answers are infinitely more helpful than "find out IC."

[musashi]

Thank you Lizzie 

That's exactly how I feel about the "find out IC" response, and you just posted out what I think people should reply with far more eloquently than I could have.

I'd give it a QFT, but it's a big quote 

[jhunter]

It looks to me that you just jammered on without ever really giving an answer with some of your examples. I prefer a quick and to the point answer if there really isn't going to be one given myself. *shrug* Find out IC has never bothered me in the slightest and I think it's a perfectly acceptable answer, IMO.

[Qzzrbl]

It looks to me that you just jammered on without ever really giving an answer with some of your examples. I prefer a quick and to the point answer if there really isn't going to be one given myself. *shrug* Find out IC has never bothered me in the slightest and I think it's a perfectly acceptable answer, IMO.

All of those responses answered those questions, methinks. If I wanted to know the recipe for something, and got "Use analyze on it" as a response instead of "Find out IC"  I would find out the recipe to it. Not every newbie on the boards knows the proper commands to figure such things out.

[musashi]

I agree. That answer, while still directing the player to seek their final answer in game, was informative enough to set them off in the right direction without giving away any IG sekrits, or intricate inner workings of the code.

To me, the "find out IC" remark staring at me from my computer screen, always seems to sounds like one of the two when I read it:

"I'm a dick, and I'm telling you find out IC because I don't know and don't want to say I don't know."

or

"I'm a dick, and I'm telling you to find out IC because I do know but I don't want to help you at all."

Both of which make me feel 

I would prefer Lizzie's answers any day of the week, because they're all helpful at least a little bit.

[RogueGunslinger]

Right. But there -are- things that should be left to find out IC and IC only. Whether his examples were bad or not. When someone is saying "Find out IC" They are really trying to help you. Believe it or not. It's a matter of trying to keep things fresh and interesting, and surprising, and making it -so- much better when you do figure out those things in game.

Do some people use the term to liberally? Sure, but how is that hurting you at all? It's not like more people won't post to give you an answer if it isn't a 'Find out IC' matter. And if no one else does give you the answer you're looking for; Then it's most likely is a matter you should find out IC.

One of the reasons I like to encourage people to find things out ICly is, it's -really- more fun.  Anything you want to learn (I like to think/hope) can be learned by plodding back and forth across the mud questing for the answer.  And plodding back and forth across the mud is remarkably fun.

I really hate to do this, because I always hated it being done to me, but please find out in game!

[Incognito]

Thanks for getting the gist Rogueslinger.

The questions I listed, were meant as on-the-fly examples. They werent really the substance of my initial post.

[musashi]

Would you mind posting up a few examples of questions that would require a "find out IC'ly" answer with nothing else to steer you in the right direction then? That way I could see more of the gist of what you were talking about. 

[LoD]

One of the problems is that people come to the GDB boards expecting answers and they should probably instead being looking for help finding the answers.  Those two are different things.

How do I make a travel cake?

Answer: Make sure you have a sack of flour in your inventory, then use the craft command.  Typing 'craft flour' with no arguments will show you a list of things you can create.  Typing 'craft flour into few travel cakes' would then actually create the travel cakes.

Help: Making anything will fall under the various crafting skills (i.e. cooking, woodworking, tanning, etc...).  Help Crafting and Help Cooking both have some good syntax examples for cooking food.  You may also come to find the Analyze skill useful in determining what components are necessary to make a given item, if possible.  You can find examples under Help Analyze.

The best response, in my mind, is one that points the player in the direction of how to help themselves and encourages them to take that course in the future.  If we simply supply answers, then we create the expectation that whenever someone needs an answer -- they ask a player on the GDB.  And when there becomes a GDB issue, maybe someone sends a PM or an IM to the person because they think it's harmless.  Before you know it, though, the line of what's appropriate and not appropriate begins to grow bleary and people start asking questions which have an OOC and IC component.

"Give a man a fish and you feed him for a day.  Teach a man to fish and you feed him for a lifetime."

                                                                                                      -Chinese Proverb

It's better in the long run (for both parties involved) for us to train people how and where to get the answers rather than providing the answers ourselves.  Teach them to use our documentation system and rely on themselves and the game for answers rather than the playerbase.  I realize that's not always going to be possible or prudent, but it should be done moreso than it is today.  And, ultimately, it's what people are trying to do when they respond with "Find out IC."

-LoD

[musashi]

My only reservation is that to me, it seems like there is a huge difference between:

Making anything will fall under the various crafting skills (i.e. cooking, woodworking, tanning, etc...).  Help Crafting and Help Cooking both have some good syntax examples for cooking food.  You may also come to find the Analyze skill useful in determining what components are necessary to make a given item, if possible.  You can find examples under Help Analyze

and

Find out IC

in terms of how helpful or friendly the reply appears.

So I was just asking ... maybe RGS or Incognito could provide an example of a question where it was more helpful to the person asking, to tell them "find out IC" vice the more verbose, informative response you gave.

[RogueGunslinger]

That's fine, Mushashi. But just because someone is being less than helpful, doesn't mean you get angry at them. Because more often than not, the answer to you question is given by someone else. It's the nature of the boards. Some people are more helpful than others. Some people are assholes. Some people are awesome, and constantly do their best to help you. We call the latter "Helpers" Around here. And questions that you think might be IC should be fed to them, or to staff via the Request tool. Then you won't ever have to worry about getting a "Find out IC" on the boards.

[Shoka Windrunner]

Would you mind posting up a few examples of questions that would require a "find out IC'ly" answer with nothing else to steer you in the right direction then? That way I could see more of the gist of what you were talking about. 

I think he means things like:

What's the words to the Drovian spell of Eternal Night and Darkness?

Where is the special sekrit fort with the undead dood who has the steel penis?

What is the best way to twink my skills?  (okay, you shouldn't even try to find that out IC for that matter)


Things I think are okay:

How does this skill work?

I saw this, what was it?  (like I saw a guy fighting and he was jabbing, wtf does that mean?  My character -saw- it but I just read it and don't understand)

If I'm a hunter, where should I be hunting game?

   Basically any question that your PC -should- know already because they have been learning the basics of their guild for a long time already to get the to point they currently are, or it's something that, reading it on your screen, doesn't properly convey what it is.  It's kind of like starting a new magicker and you get an email that states the words for your starting spells.  You have already learned to the point that you are at.  You've moved from scales on the piano to playing a song, and you will increase in knowledge much faster at this point.  (at least I did on the Piano)

For instance the jabbing thing, asking -what- that is or -what- it looks like so you can imagine it in your mind, is cool.  Asking how you branch the ability to jab...not cool.

[musashi]

That's fine, Mushashi. But just because someone is being less than helpful, doesn't mean you get angry at them. Because more often than not, the answer to you question is given by someone else. It's the nature of the boards. Some people are more helpful than others. Some people are assholes. Some people are awesome, and constantly do their best to help you. We call the latter "Helpers" Around here. And questions that you think might be IC should be fed to them, or to staff via the Request tool. Then you won't ever have to worry about getting a "Find out IC" on the boards.

I'm sorry, I'm not sure how any of that was related at all to the topic at hand. You're very right though, most of the time another, more helpful person will chime in with something that will steer you in the right direction towards finding the answer to your question on your own.  In fact, I'm catching on that more often than not, my question has already been asked before, so using the search feature of the boards a little bit will circumvent the entire need for me to even post it in the first place.

However, my question was not "why do people say it?" or "Is it ok for me to get mad at people for saying it?". My question was "Could you please provide me with an example in support of this:

When someone is saying "Find out IC" They are really trying to help you. Believe it or not. It's a matter of trying to keep things fresh and interesting, and surprising, and making it -so- much better when you do figure out those things in game.

[Qzzrbl]

Right, things like "What spells do I have to branch to be able to nuke a third of the Known World?" or "What skills can this guild learn?" Those are things that need a big Find out IC stamp on them. But from what it seems, alot of people are saying find out IC to things that could easily be explained without touching on secret IC knowledge or things about the code we're not supposed to know about.

Which causes alot of frustration among our beloved newbies.

[musashi]

Right, things like "What spells do I have to branch to be able to nuke a third of the Known World?" or "What skills can this guild learn?" Those are things that need a big Find out IC stamp on them. But from what it seems, alot of people are saying find out IC to things that could easily be explained without touching on secret IC knowledge or things about the code we're not supposed to know about.

Which causes alot of frustration among our beloved newbies.

In regards to someone asking about what skills a guild can learn, I was thinking maybe something like: Well, if you take a look at the helpfile for that guild you'll see a rough outline of skills that are commonly associated with the characters who select it, and if a certain type of skill is important to you as a player you can look at the help file for that too and it might tell you about some of the guilds that are well known for being proficient in it. Take for example how the helpfile on tanning mentions that many rangers pick the skill up later on in their lives, and that almost all merchants are familiar with it. But generally, you can always expect a few pleasant surprises in terms of what skills your character might develope over the course of their life, so get in there and find out! ... ... would be a little nicer and more newbie friendly than: Find out IC.

With the question about magick, I tried to find something on it in the search engine, an example of where someone had asked but I couldn't find one. I'm prone to believe just about everyone is aware that magick should be something to be discovered in game ... if only because by the time you're able to play someone who might use it, you probably are not a newbie anymore. However, even in regards to that, I think Lizzie already posted a very good example of a helpful reply.

[LoD]

Another problem is the intention of the poster using "Find out IC." and the reaction of the person reading it.

The intention of saying "Find out IC." is usually something along the lines of, "What you're asking contains some elements of information that are best found out in in-character within the game itself.  There may not be any immediate help files, but I want to protect you from making the mistake of getting the answer here on the GDB rather than having sharing the same sense of discovery and wonder that -I- received when I figured it out for myself in game."

The reaction of hearing "Find out IC." is usually something along the lines of, "Stop asking this question.  You're out of line and this is not the place for this information.  You're close to breaking the rules and I'm here to remind you that this is inappropriate behavior..........nubsauce."

I wouldn't take the "Find out IC." response as an offense to your inability to see IC/OOC boundaries, but more as a friendly nudge hinting that there might be some fun and enjoyment out of pursuing this kind of thing 100% through the game environment rather than through any of the OOC channels available to us.  It's always nice to get a response that also helps you learn where to look if it's something fairly trivial, but sometimes that's not always apparent.

"How do I hold a weapon?" is an obvious OOC syntax question.
"Which weapons are better than others?" is an obvious IC subjective question.
"Which weapons should my assassin be using?" is part IC and part OOC.

Generally I would try my best to respond to any question that falls into the latter two categories by referencing only help files and not interjecting any personal opinion on the matter.  The help files contain the appropriate amount of ambiguity concerning IC and OOC boundaries and we would probably do better if we simply helped new players find where the prescribed answers are rather than paraphrase and risk allowing our own commentary to muddle the issue.

This is especially important for veteran players, because there are features of this game that we may have known about for 10 years and consider widespread knowledge -- but that doesn't mean a new player wouldn't be excited to figure that out for themselves and think it was a cool feature.

-LoD

[musashi]

I completely agree with you LoD, I think the best kind of help for a newbie who's asking would be to steer them towards the game help files, or the website documentation. I was recently about to make a thread in the World Discussion board to ask about reading sheet music in the game, but low and behold ... thanks to people helping me get into the habit of looking around on my own first (now that I know roughly where to try and look), I found a blurb on the website about musical theory in Zalanthas and didn't have to ask at all. 

But since it's so difficult to convey emotion and intent through text, I think it's common sense to assume that to a newbie, reading "find out IC" in response to their question is going to come across to them as: You are worth 3 words to me. Well, 2 words and an acronym.

So, if you do realize that by firing off a "find out IC" you are more likely to offend the new player than make them feel like you are just trying to protect their fledgling sense of wonder for the game ... wouldn't it be a little nicer to elaborate so they feel as though you really did care enough to try and protect their fledgling sense of wonder for the game?

Or if you can't be bothered to do that, why not just not post anything in response at all, and let one of those more helpful people, like yourself LoD, handle it?

[Qzzrbl]

But since it's so difficult to convey emotion and intent through text, I think it's common sense to assume that to a newbie, reading "find out IC" in response to their question is going to come across to them as: You are worth 3 words to me. Well, 2 words and an acronym.

So, if you do realize that by firing off a "find out IC" you are more likely to offend the new player than make them feel like you are just trying to protect their fledgling sense of wonder for the game ... wouldn't it be a little nicer to elaborate so they feel as though you really did care enough to try and protect their fledgling sense of wonder for the game?

Is why people need to use smileys. 

[musashi]

Is why people need to use smileys. 

QFMFT 

[jhunter]

That's the problem. People assume that your intent is less than honorable when you give a "find out IC" answer.

You say: Find out IC. (with the intent of letting them know that the answer can be found in game and not to ruin that discovery for them so that their experience in discovering it can be every bit as incredible and enjoyable as it was for you)
and they, (being the negative-thinking people that I'm finding alot of the people that play this game are) hear: Go fuck your self n00b, you stupid piece of shit. Don't ask questions.
Others who see this response, (also being the negative-thinking people that have a peeve about this sort of answer that they are) they hear: I'm a dick and you stupid n00bs can go to hell because I'm not giving you shit being the unholy prick that I am.

It's popped up in this thread a couple of times from people that appear to have this sort of attitude about the "find out IC" answer. Personally, it has always motivated me to stop asking for things to be handed over on a platter and to go find out for myself. I'm very glad that I got to and want to offer the same experience for others. It has absolutely -nothing- to do with me trying to be an unholy baby-eating prick or trying not to be helpful at all. If that were the case I would completely ignore every question that someone has that pops up on here.

[Doppelganger]

Why are there no stars in the Zalanthan sky?

There are stars, and your character would know this. Your character would not necessarily know what those stars -are- exactly, but would definitely be cognizant of the fact that there are tiny little sparks of light waaaaaay up in the sky.

At first there were no visible stars. Same shit that makes sky red was supposed to hide all stars from your average Zalanthan view.

However, eventually came sombody who thought that it would be cool to mention stars during mudsex session in desert. He looked around and found no stars in room descriptions, none in documentation, not even in Lirathan archives. But, being idiot so romantic he kept looking and finally found another clueless moron fellow who answered his question about stars with "find out IC". And, amazing enough, find he did.

Few mudsex sessions later and some careless immteractions after, a whole tribe with culture evolving around mudsex under the stars was born and its documentation approved. Sometime later a contradiction with the rest of the world has been found, but it was too late to change anything, so stars got into descriptions, documentation and even mentioned in Lirathan archives now. That's the sad story of how we got those fucked up stars. We've found them IC.

[Tisiphone]

This isn't much, but there's also the subjective time and effort issue. Sometimes, when I see someone posting a question that is essentially a Find Out IC issue, I simply post that response rather than a longer, fuller explanation because I simply don't have the time or don't wish to spend the effort to do otherwise. In doing so, while falling short of the ideal, I -am- trying to make it clear that the question is somehow not best outright answered on the GDB, and relying on the hope that someone with more time or beneficence will make the issue clearer.

[musashi]

This isn't much, but there's also the subjective time and effort issue. Sometimes, when I see someone posting a question that is essentially a Find Out IC issue, I simply post that response rather than a longer, fuller explanation because I simply don't have the time or don't wish to spend the effort to do otherwise. In doing so, while falling short of the ideal, I -am- trying to make it clear that the question is somehow not best outright answered on the GDB, and relying on the hope that someone with more time or beneficence will make the issue clearer.

I believe you completely. And I'm sure that a lot of other people who use the "find out IC" statement on the boards a lot probably also think along these same lines.

But as Sanvean brought up once before in the OOC board:(here's the link she provided then) http://www.csmonitor.com/2006/0515/p13s01-stct.html

People are actually researching how easy it is to misunderstand the nuance or emotional context email (or in this case a message board) conveys. I am NOT trying to sound high and mighty here, but the blurb from that link above said the biggest reason for these frequent misunderstandings is human egotism.

We just naturally assume that our intent is going to come across the way we want it to because we assume everyone else has the same mindset that we do when we fire off some words.

Likewise, the people reading it assume that they got the content and intent of the message correctly (even though they often didn't) ... for the very same reasons.

So in light of that, I just feel like, since you realize a new player is more apt to take your "find out IC" negatively than they are to take it positively, it might be better to either elaborate a bit so they know you're not trying to be a dick to them, or just leave it alone entirely and let someone who is willing to spend that time/effort help them instead.