Find out IC - what does this term actually mean?

[Incognito]

"Find out IC or ICLY" and "Find out IG or IGLY" are two very common terms one might come across, on the boards.

Some players like to use the term liberally on the boards, and others hate to use them.

People who post queries on the board and get one of these as a reply - probably find it as an "incomplete or insufficient" reply, or on the other extreme, might even think that the poster is trying to be a smart ass.

New players might find the terms confusing.

The truth of the matter is, players, over the course of their playing experience on Arm, might come up with various queries, on different subjects, dealing in a variety of detail (or not); and sometimes, it is not possible (or suitable) to give an answer to such queries on the GDB, for the sole reason that that particular piece of information might not be something which is widely known in the World of Zalanthas.

Posting a succint and to-the-point reply to every such query would possibly lead to the de-mystification of many nuances of the World, that are supposed to be discovered and learnt in-game.

If you are one of the many players who've asked Staff or Players for clarification on a certain topic, and ended up getting one of the above-mentioned replies, you should not be disheartened, discouraged or peeved off, or, have a feeling that your query is being 'passed off' without getting it's due response.

On the contrary, you should take it as an IC challenge, to discover the reply to your query in-game. In 9 out of 10 cases, when you do end up finding your answer, you will realise why it is not widely circulated - as a generic reply on the GDB forums. It also means that you, as a PC have hit upon a subject which requires your PC to use their in-game resources and wit, to ferret out information which others in the game might not have.

Questions might range from the random, generic or even highly-specific, for example:
Why are there no stars in the Zalanthan sky?
Where can I find metal?
Is it better to use one weapon skill over another? If so, why?
What can this spell do?
What is the recipe for this item?
What can I make out of this material?
....etc.

A few suggestions to getting a "find out IC" question answered:
1) Make it your objective, so Staff members are aware that you as a PC are trying to figure out this particular thing in-game.
2) Make enquiries in-game, to PCs as well as NPCs, finding out the right PCs and NPCs to ask the respective queries, is also part of the process.
3) If applicable, email your clan IMM and let them know your PC is trying to figure out such and such information in-game, and would like their help.
4) If it is something generic, your best bet might be to ask the Helpers, instead of posting it on the boards. Chances are, they might give you a more clearer line of action to follow, without revealing IC information.

Getting to discover the plethora of culture, lore, secrets and mechanics of the game, are some of the best moments you as a player will have in this game. If they are served up on a platter, so to speak, on the GDB forums, and known to everyone, the game would immediately loose it's charm and mystery.

Above all, have patience, and enjoy your PC. The answers will come crawling out to you sooner or later, either from other PCs, or through Staff help, if your PC has reason enough to get access to that information. In certain cases, it might not be realistic for your PC to learn something in-game, and in such cases, you'll probably find that out within the game itself too.

I hope this helps out any confused or frustrated players who might feel that their queries aren't being responded to, in the correct depth, detail or as fast as they would like.

[Tisiphone]

Further, there may be questions which can be answered individually but should not be posted on the boards; for these, feel free to use the request tool or message a helper.

[Lizzie]

Every single one of those questions can be addressed -without- resorting to "Find out IC" (translated to, you are a noob, this is a wall. Please bang your head against this spot. Right here. And repeat until your face bleeds. kthxbai)

It also means that you, as a PC have hit upon a subject which requires your PC to use their in-game resources and wit, to ferret out information which others in the game might not have.

Questions might range from the random, generic or even highly-specific, for example:
Why are there no stars in the Zalanthan sky?
Where can I find metal?
Is it better to use one weapon skill over another? If so, why?
What can this spell do?
What is the recipe for this item?
What can I make out of this material?
....etc.

Why are there no stars in the Zalanthan sky?

There are stars, and your character would know this. Your character would not necessarily know what those stars -are- exactly, but would definitely be cognizant of the fact that there are tiny little sparks of light waaaaaay up in the sky. He would also know that the daytime sky is -red- and not blue. But that's just a by the way.

Where can I find metal?

Your character would know that finding metal is not something generally known about. Your character -would- have heard of the Copper Wars, and would know that "copper" is the name of a metal. Your character would probably not know what copper is used for, and would generally be in awe of it if ever witnessed first hand. Your character would probably also know that a steel dragon is planted outside the gates of Allanak but again would have no idea where the metal came from, and would not be very likely to ask someone. It is commonly assumed that anyone who might know where it comes from, ain't telling. So your character is not likely to ever find out - though its discovery might - possibly - be possible. Some day. Maybe. But not likely.

Is it better to use one weapon over another? If so, why?

Well the "sap" skill requires a blunt object. The "backstab" skill requires a stabbing object. Other than that, there are "cultural norms" in both north and south, and some tribes have traditions of using one type over another. But there are no "+5" weapons, so really it's a matter of preference, combined with the expertise required to produce any given weapon. For example, a "generic bone dagger" might stab perfectly sufficient for a well-skilled person's needs, though an "obsidian-bladed" dagger might do the same job quicker, in the well-skilled person's hands. However, in a novice's hands, neither will be the "best" because it requires skill to use, not just quality of blade.

What can this spell do?

The nature of magick is intentionally mysterious. Some characters might be more often exposed to magicks than others, but most are not exposed to them on a regular basis. Even magickers are prone to discovering new talents of their own, and with careful exploration and experimentation, might learn what their new-found powers do. Unfortunately due to the mysterious nature of magicks, it isn't appropriate to discuss on the GDB. If you feel there is a bug with your magicks, or some sort of coding error in that you aren't capable of moving further with your skills list, please e-mail or use the request tool to notify the staff.

What is the recipe for this item?

The syntax for discovering recipes is "analyze." You will find it on your skills list in the crafting section. You can't analyze something that isn't in your inventory (seen when you type INV), so you won't be able to use that command on items listed in an NPC's shop. However, it's more than likely that there are other crafters who can do similar things, and attempting to seek them out and interacting with them will be beneficial not only to your coded skill, but also to nurture your roleplaying enjoyment.

What can I make out of this material?

The syntax for that would be "craft <item>" Bear in mind you can sometimes combine items to make new items, for example "craft brick brick brick carpet carpet roof" to build a house.. but you must have all items in your inventory. Some tools are useful both code-wise and RP-wise in the experimentation of crafting; to use them, have them either wielded or held (ep/es).

All of the above answers are OOC information, all of the above answers are infinitely more helpful than "find out IC."

[musashi]

Thank you Lizzie 

That's exactly how I feel about the "find out IC" response, and you just posted out what I think people should reply with far more eloquently than I could have.

I'd give it a QFT, but it's a big quote 

[jhunter]

It looks to me that you just jammered on without ever really giving an answer with some of your examples. I prefer a quick and to the point answer if there really isn't going to be one given myself. *shrug* Find out IC has never bothered me in the slightest and I think it's a perfectly acceptable answer, IMO.

[Qzzrbl]

It looks to me that you just jammered on without ever really giving an answer with some of your examples. I prefer a quick and to the point answer if there really isn't going to be one given myself. *shrug* Find out IC has never bothered me in the slightest and I think it's a perfectly acceptable answer, IMO.

All of those responses answered those questions, methinks. If I wanted to know the recipe for something, and got "Use analyze on it" as a response instead of "Find out IC"  I would find out the recipe to it. Not every newbie on the boards knows the proper commands to figure such things out.

[musashi]

I agree. That answer, while still directing the player to seek their final answer in game, was informative enough to set them off in the right direction without giving away any IG sekrits, or intricate inner workings of the code.

To me, the "find out IC" remark staring at me from my computer screen, always seems to sounds like one of the two when I read it:

"I'm a dick, and I'm telling you find out IC because I don't know and don't want to say I don't know."

or

"I'm a dick, and I'm telling you to find out IC because I do know but I don't want to help you at all."

Both of which make me feel 

I would prefer Lizzie's answers any day of the week, because they're all helpful at least a little bit.

[RogueGunslinger]

Right. But there -are- things that should be left to find out IC and IC only. Whether his examples were bad or not. When someone is saying "Find out IC" They are really trying to help you. Believe it or not. It's a matter of trying to keep things fresh and interesting, and surprising, and making it -so- much better when you do figure out those things in game.

Do some people use the term to liberally? Sure, but how is that hurting you at all? It's not like more people won't post to give you an answer if it isn't a 'Find out IC' matter. And if no one else does give you the answer you're looking for; Then it's most likely is a matter you should find out IC.

One of the reasons I like to encourage people to find things out ICly is, it's -really- more fun.  Anything you want to learn (I like to think/hope) can be learned by plodding back and forth across the mud questing for the answer.  And plodding back and forth across the mud is remarkably fun.

I really hate to do this, because I always hated it being done to me, but please find out in game!

[Incognito]

Thanks for getting the gist Rogueslinger.

The questions I listed, were meant as on-the-fly examples. They werent really the substance of my initial post.

[musashi]

Would you mind posting up a few examples of questions that would require a "find out IC'ly" answer with nothing else to steer you in the right direction then? That way I could see more of the gist of what you were talking about. 

[LoD]

One of the problems is that people come to the GDB boards expecting answers and they should probably instead being looking for help finding the answers.  Those two are different things.

How do I make a travel cake?

Answer: Make sure you have a sack of flour in your inventory, then use the craft command.  Typing 'craft flour' with no arguments will show you a list of things you can create.  Typing 'craft flour into few travel cakes' would then actually create the travel cakes.

Help: Making anything will fall under the various crafting skills (i.e. cooking, woodworking, tanning, etc...).  Help Crafting and Help Cooking both have some good syntax examples for cooking food.  You may also come to find the Analyze skill useful in determining what components are necessary to make a given item, if possible.  You can find examples under Help Analyze.

The best response, in my mind, is one that points the player in the direction of how to help themselves and encourages them to take that course in the future.  If we simply supply answers, then we create the expectation that whenever someone needs an answer -- they ask a player on the GDB.  And when there becomes a GDB issue, maybe someone sends a PM or an IM to the person because they think it's harmless.  Before you know it, though, the line of what's appropriate and not appropriate begins to grow bleary and people start asking questions which have an OOC and IC component.

"Give a man a fish and you feed him for a day.  Teach a man to fish and you feed him for a lifetime."

                                                                                                      -Chinese Proverb

It's better in the long run (for both parties involved) for us to train people how and where to get the answers rather than providing the answers ourselves.  Teach them to use our documentation system and rely on themselves and the game for answers rather than the playerbase.  I realize that's not always going to be possible or prudent, but it should be done moreso than it is today.  And, ultimately, it's what people are trying to do when they respond with "Find out IC."

-LoD

[musashi]

My only reservation is that to me, it seems like there is a huge difference between:

Making anything will fall under the various crafting skills (i.e. cooking, woodworking, tanning, etc...).  Help Crafting and Help Cooking both have some good syntax examples for cooking food.  You may also come to find the Analyze skill useful in determining what components are necessary to make a given item, if possible.  You can find examples under Help Analyze

and

Find out IC

in terms of how helpful or friendly the reply appears.

So I was just asking ... maybe RGS or Incognito could provide an example of a question where it was more helpful to the person asking, to tell them "find out IC" vice the more verbose, informative response you gave.

[RogueGunslinger]

That's fine, Mushashi. But just because someone is being less than helpful, doesn't mean you get angry at them. Because more often than not, the answer to you question is given by someone else. It's the nature of the boards. Some people are more helpful than others. Some people are assholes. Some people are awesome, and constantly do their best to help you. We call the latter "Helpers" Around here. And questions that you think might be IC should be fed to them, or to staff via the Request tool. Then you won't ever have to worry about getting a "Find out IC" on the boards.

[Shoka Windrunner]

Would you mind posting up a few examples of questions that would require a "find out IC'ly" answer with nothing else to steer you in the right direction then? That way I could see more of the gist of what you were talking about. 

I think he means things like:

What's the words to the Drovian spell of Eternal Night and Darkness?

Where is the special sekrit fort with the undead dood who has the steel penis?

What is the best way to twink my skills?  (okay, you shouldn't even try to find that out IC for that matter)


Things I think are okay:

How does this skill work?

I saw this, what was it?  (like I saw a guy fighting and he was jabbing, wtf does that mean?  My character -saw- it but I just read it and don't understand)

If I'm a hunter, where should I be hunting game?

   Basically any question that your PC -should- know already because they have been learning the basics of their guild for a long time already to get the to point they currently are, or it's something that, reading it on your screen, doesn't properly convey what it is.  It's kind of like starting a new magicker and you get an email that states the words for your starting spells.  You have already learned to the point that you are at.  You've moved from scales on the piano to playing a song, and you will increase in knowledge much faster at this point.  (at least I did on the Piano)

For instance the jabbing thing, asking -what- that is or -what- it looks like so you can imagine it in your mind, is cool.  Asking how you branch the ability to jab...not cool.

[musashi]

That's fine, Mushashi. But just because someone is being less than helpful, doesn't mean you get angry at them. Because more often than not, the answer to you question is given by someone else. It's the nature of the boards. Some people are more helpful than others. Some people are assholes. Some people are awesome, and constantly do their best to help you. We call the latter "Helpers" Around here. And questions that you think might be IC should be fed to them, or to staff via the Request tool. Then you won't ever have to worry about getting a "Find out IC" on the boards.

I'm sorry, I'm not sure how any of that was related at all to the topic at hand. You're very right though, most of the time another, more helpful person will chime in with something that will steer you in the right direction towards finding the answer to your question on your own.  In fact, I'm catching on that more often than not, my question has already been asked before, so using the search feature of the boards a little bit will circumvent the entire need for me to even post it in the first place.

However, my question was not "why do people say it?" or "Is it ok for me to get mad at people for saying it?". My question was "Could you please provide me with an example in support of this:

When someone is saying "Find out IC" They are really trying to help you. Believe it or not. It's a matter of trying to keep things fresh and interesting, and surprising, and making it -so- much better when you do figure out those things in game.

[Qzzrbl]

Right, things like "What spells do I have to branch to be able to nuke a third of the Known World?" or "What skills can this guild learn?" Those are things that need a big Find out IC stamp on them. But from what it seems, alot of people are saying find out IC to things that could easily be explained without touching on secret IC knowledge or things about the code we're not supposed to know about.

Which causes alot of frustration among our beloved newbies.

[musashi]

Right, things like "What spells do I have to branch to be able to nuke a third of the Known World?" or "What skills can this guild learn?" Those are things that need a big Find out IC stamp on them. But from what it seems, alot of people are saying find out IC to things that could easily be explained without touching on secret IC knowledge or things about the code we're not supposed to know about.

Which causes alot of frustration among our beloved newbies.

In regards to someone asking about what skills a guild can learn, I was thinking maybe something like: Well, if you take a look at the helpfile for that guild you'll see a rough outline of skills that are commonly associated with the characters who select it, and if a certain type of skill is important to you as a player you can look at the help file for that too and it might tell you about some of the guilds that are well known for being proficient in it. Take for example how the helpfile on tanning mentions that many rangers pick the skill up later on in their lives, and that almost all merchants are familiar with it. But generally, you can always expect a few pleasant surprises in terms of what skills your character might develope over the course of their life, so get in there and find out! ... ... would be a little nicer and more newbie friendly than: Find out IC.

With the question about magick, I tried to find something on it in the search engine, an example of where someone had asked but I couldn't find one. I'm prone to believe just about everyone is aware that magick should be something to be discovered in game ... if only because by the time you're able to play someone who might use it, you probably are not a newbie anymore. However, even in regards to that, I think Lizzie already posted a very good example of a helpful reply.

[LoD]

Another problem is the intention of the poster using "Find out IC." and the reaction of the person reading it.

The intention of saying "Find out IC." is usually something along the lines of, "What you're asking contains some elements of information that are best found out in in-character within the game itself.  There may not be any immediate help files, but I want to protect you from making the mistake of getting the answer here on the GDB rather than having sharing the same sense of discovery and wonder that -I- received when I figured it out for myself in game."

The reaction of hearing "Find out IC." is usually something along the lines of, "Stop asking this question.  You're out of line and this is not the place for this information.  You're close to breaking the rules and I'm here to remind you that this is inappropriate behavior..........nubsauce."

I wouldn't take the "Find out IC." response as an offense to your inability to see IC/OOC boundaries, but more as a friendly nudge hinting that there might be some fun and enjoyment out of pursuing this kind of thing 100% through the game environment rather than through any of the OOC channels available to us.  It's always nice to get a response that also helps you learn where to look if it's something fairly trivial, but sometimes that's not always apparent.

"How do I hold a weapon?" is an obvious OOC syntax question.
"Which weapons are better than others?" is an obvious IC subjective question.
"Which weapons should my assassin be using?" is part IC and part OOC.

Generally I would try my best to respond to any question that falls into the latter two categories by referencing only help files and not interjecting any personal opinion on the matter.  The help files contain the appropriate amount of ambiguity concerning IC and OOC boundaries and we would probably do better if we simply helped new players find where the prescribed answers are rather than paraphrase and risk allowing our own commentary to muddle the issue.

This is especially important for veteran players, because there are features of this game that we may have known about for 10 years and consider widespread knowledge -- but that doesn't mean a new player wouldn't be excited to figure that out for themselves and think it was a cool feature.

-LoD

[musashi]

I completely agree with you LoD, I think the best kind of help for a newbie who's asking would be to steer them towards the game help files, or the website documentation. I was recently about to make a thread in the World Discussion board to ask about reading sheet music in the game, but low and behold ... thanks to people helping me get into the habit of looking around on my own first (now that I know roughly where to try and look), I found a blurb on the website about musical theory in Zalanthas and didn't have to ask at all. 

But since it's so difficult to convey emotion and intent through text, I think it's common sense to assume that to a newbie, reading "find out IC" in response to their question is going to come across to them as: You are worth 3 words to me. Well, 2 words and an acronym.

So, if you do realize that by firing off a "find out IC" you are more likely to offend the new player than make them feel like you are just trying to protect their fledgling sense of wonder for the game ... wouldn't it be a little nicer to elaborate so they feel as though you really did care enough to try and protect their fledgling sense of wonder for the game?

Or if you can't be bothered to do that, why not just not post anything in response at all, and let one of those more helpful people, like yourself LoD, handle it?

[Qzzrbl]

But since it's so difficult to convey emotion and intent through text, I think it's common sense to assume that to a newbie, reading "find out IC" in response to their question is going to come across to them as: You are worth 3 words to me. Well, 2 words and an acronym.

So, if you do realize that by firing off a "find out IC" you are more likely to offend the new player than make them feel like you are just trying to protect their fledgling sense of wonder for the game ... wouldn't it be a little nicer to elaborate so they feel as though you really did care enough to try and protect their fledgling sense of wonder for the game?

Is why people need to use smileys. 

[musashi]

Is why people need to use smileys. 

QFMFT 

[jhunter]

That's the problem. People assume that your intent is less than honorable when you give a "find out IC" answer.

You say: Find out IC. (with the intent of letting them know that the answer can be found in game and not to ruin that discovery for them so that their experience in discovering it can be every bit as incredible and enjoyable as it was for you)
and they, (being the negative-thinking people that I'm finding alot of the people that play this game are) hear: Go fuck your self n00b, you stupid piece of shit. Don't ask questions.
Others who see this response, (also being the negative-thinking people that have a peeve about this sort of answer that they are) they hear: I'm a dick and you stupid n00bs can go to hell because I'm not giving you shit being the unholy prick that I am.

It's popped up in this thread a couple of times from people that appear to have this sort of attitude about the "find out IC" answer. Personally, it has always motivated me to stop asking for things to be handed over on a platter and to go find out for myself. I'm very glad that I got to and want to offer the same experience for others. It has absolutely -nothing- to do with me trying to be an unholy baby-eating prick or trying not to be helpful at all. If that were the case I would completely ignore every question that someone has that pops up on here.

[Doppelganger]

Why are there no stars in the Zalanthan sky?

There are stars, and your character would know this. Your character would not necessarily know what those stars -are- exactly, but would definitely be cognizant of the fact that there are tiny little sparks of light waaaaaay up in the sky.

At first there were no visible stars. Same shit that makes sky red was supposed to hide all stars from your average Zalanthan view.

However, eventually came sombody who thought that it would be cool to mention stars during mudsex session in desert. He looked around and found no stars in room descriptions, none in documentation, not even in Lirathan archives. But, being idiot so romantic he kept looking and finally found another clueless moron fellow who answered his question about stars with "find out IC". And, amazing enough, find he did.

Few mudsex sessions later and some careless immteractions after, a whole tribe with culture evolving around mudsex under the stars was born and its documentation approved. Sometime later a contradiction with the rest of the world has been found, but it was too late to change anything, so stars got into descriptions, documentation and even mentioned in Lirathan archives now. That's the sad story of how we got those fucked up stars. We've found them IC.

[Tisiphone]

This isn't much, but there's also the subjective time and effort issue. Sometimes, when I see someone posting a question that is essentially a Find Out IC issue, I simply post that response rather than a longer, fuller explanation because I simply don't have the time or don't wish to spend the effort to do otherwise. In doing so, while falling short of the ideal, I -am- trying to make it clear that the question is somehow not best outright answered on the GDB, and relying on the hope that someone with more time or beneficence will make the issue clearer.

[musashi]

This isn't much, but there's also the subjective time and effort issue. Sometimes, when I see someone posting a question that is essentially a Find Out IC issue, I simply post that response rather than a longer, fuller explanation because I simply don't have the time or don't wish to spend the effort to do otherwise. In doing so, while falling short of the ideal, I -am- trying to make it clear that the question is somehow not best outright answered on the GDB, and relying on the hope that someone with more time or beneficence will make the issue clearer.

I believe you completely. And I'm sure that a lot of other people who use the "find out IC" statement on the boards a lot probably also think along these same lines.

But as Sanvean brought up once before in the OOC board:(here's the link she provided then) http://www.csmonitor.com/2006/0515/p13s01-stct.html

People are actually researching how easy it is to misunderstand the nuance or emotional context email (or in this case a message board) conveys. I am NOT trying to sound high and mighty here, but the blurb from that link above said the biggest reason for these frequent misunderstandings is human egotism.

We just naturally assume that our intent is going to come across the way we want it to because we assume everyone else has the same mindset that we do when we fire off some words.

Likewise, the people reading it assume that they got the content and intent of the message correctly (even though they often didn't) ... for the very same reasons.

So in light of that, I just feel like, since you realize a new player is more apt to take your "find out IC" negatively than they are to take it positively, it might be better to either elaborate a bit so they know you're not trying to be a dick to them, or just leave it alone entirely and let someone who is willing to spend that time/effort help them instead.

[RogueGunslinger]

Once again, Mushashi, I think you are the only one arguing your point. Upon doing a search for "Find out IC" I have found very few instances (none really) where someone simply said "Find out IC" And that was the end of the discussion. More often than not(almost every time, really) There was information given as to why you should find out IC. Either by someone else, or by the person giving out the "Find out IC"

It's not like every single question asked has someone telling you you should find out the answer in the game.



To actually argue your point, because this is what I think you're looking for here. No. I think if anyone it's a newbie who should get a "Find out IC." Why you ask? Because it's a simple fact that here at Armageddon, we hold very dearly our secrets. It should be known to them very early in the game, that certain things just aren't talked about on the boards(like how you aren't supposed to tell people on your clan board that you died, for example). We do this to preserve the mystical, awe-inspiring parts of the game that makes us love it so damn much. We don't want to spoil all the fun for them. Period. And if they think that we're a bit stuck up in our answers, well, that's too bad. There are quite a few different means to go about asking a question that might be IC Sensitive. And they are all clearly outlined in this thread.

If someones going to get that bent out of shape over three little words, they need to grow the fuck up and realize: THIS IS THE INTERNET.

[Rhyden]

Everyone's perspective of what 'Find out IC' means will vary. I'll use this apparently pesky term every once in a while, but only if totally necessary. Newer players have a million questions and where else to bring them than the GDB? That's fine! They -should- be asking questions! Know why? Cause it means they're incredibly interested and curious about the game world. However, there's a lot of players on this GDB. Some are newer, some are older, some are in between. So if any question is asked, you're going to get a lot of different answers, arguments or just general nonsense. Unfortunately, some questions are better left vague if not completely unanswered. The term 'Find out IC' is used frequently when newer players have a question that crosses the OOC question border, into the IC question area. 'Finding out IC' isn't meant to be an elitist snappy remark to scold newer players. It means what it says. I suppose one could also say 'the answer to your question would be better discovered in character', but we're pretty lazy so 'Find out IC' is easier to type.

Don't take it in a bad way, musashi, I tell newer players to 'Find out IC' as often as they ask me terribly IC questions. It's all in the learning process, and more often than not, I find new players distinguish the difference between "good" questions and "bad" questions eventually with a few helpful coded answers, a few vague ones, a few helpful hints and a few well-placed 'Find out IC's'

[musashi]

Everyone's perspective of what 'Find out IC' means will vary. I'll use this apparently pesky term every once in a while, but only if totally necessary. Newer players have a million questions and where else to bring them than the GDB? That's fine! They -should- be asking questions! Know why? Cause it means they're incredibly interested and curious about the game world. However, there's a lot of players on this GDB. Some are newer, some are older, some are in between. So if any question is asked, you're going to get a lot of different answers, arguments or just general nonsense. Unfortunately, some questions are better left vague if not completely unanswered. The term 'Find out IC' is used frequently when newer players have a question that crosses the OOC question border, into the IC question area. 'Finding out IC' isn't meant to be an elitist snappy remark to scold newer players. It means what it says. I suppose one could also say 'the answer to your question would be better discovered in character', but we're pretty lazy so 'Find out IC' is easier to type.

Don't take it in a bad way, musashi, I tell newer players to 'Find out IC' as often as they ask me terribly IC questions. It's all in the learning process, and more often than not, I find new players distinguish the difference between "good" questions and "bad" questions eventually with a few helpful coded answers, a few vague ones, a few helpful hints and a few well-placed 'Find out IC's'

Psst ... you're nicer than RGS ... or maybe I should reword that to: I tend to think the emotional content of your written text is more positive than RGS's.

Likely because of the smilies. 

[RogueGunslinger]

 

[musashi]

 

[psionic fungus]

I agree with Musashi... 

At least half the time I see the "response" "Find out IC", it is entirely inappropriate...

The other half it just comes off as being pompous.   

[RogueGunslinger]

I agree that half the time it comes off pompous. And maybe the other half is inappropriate, but not entirely so. I just don't see the reasoning behind people thinking it's something that terrible to hear, and turn it into a big deal. It's other players saying it. People. People whom you are completely allowed to agree, or disagree with. So it gets thrown around a lot... Who gives a fuck. Move on, find your answers elsewhere. It's not like we're treating out newbies like complete and utter garbage here. Ain't that right Musashi?

[Lizzie]

This is something that really stuck out for me: LOD wrote:

"Which weapons are better than others?" is an obvious IC subjective question.

It is SO not an obvious IC subjective question. It -is- an IC subjective question, but that is ONLY "obvious" to people who already know the answer. And people who already know the answer, won't ask the question.

In most games, the stats of weapons are numeric, OOC by nature, and often listed in order of damage on gamer websites or fansites. The stats are knowable before the player ever starts playing the game. In many games, people wanting to roll up a dwarf, do so because everyone knows dwarves and blunt weapons make the most powerful warrior type. Dwarves wouldn't be very good with longswords or other one-handed edged weapons, but they can't be beat when they're using a club. In Armageddon, what is "obvious" is not at all what is "obvious" in the majority of the rest of the gaming world.

I think a lot of the problem stems from exactly this: that veterans are so used to knowing the answers to things already (by being veterans) that they forget these are *not* obviously IC subjective questions, and the attitude toward people asking them is reflected in their "obvious" eye-roll answers.

When you make a blanket statement that something is "obvious," please remember who is trying to make the observation. If it's a new player to the game, or even a veteran who is playing a certain skillset for the first time, it is not necessarily obvious at all. It's only obvious to YOU.

[Rhyden]

I agree with Musashi... 

At least half the time I see the "response" "Find out IC", it is entirely inappropriate...

The other half it just comes off as being pompous.   

I'd love to see some threads to back this.

Every time I see a 'Find out IC', it seems appropriate.

Maybe it's just that weird internet perspective thing.

[Rhyden]

This is something that really stuck out for me: LOD wrote:

"Which weapons are better than others?" is an obvious IC subjective question.

It is SO not an obvious IC subjective question. It -is- an IC subjective question, but that is ONLY "obvious" to people who already know the answer. And people who already know the answer, won't ask the question.

I think you misunderstood. LoD wasn't saying what weapons are better than others is obvious. He was saying this question is obviously a 'Find out IC' question. Which weapons are better than others? That's for the player to find out. In fact, I don't even think anyone really knows this answer but staff.

[LoD]

This is something that really stuck out for me: LOD wrote:

"Which weapons are better than others?" is an obvious IC subjective question.

It is SO not an obvious IC subjective question. It -is- an IC subjective question, but that is ONLY "obvious" to people who already know the answer. And people who already know the answer, won't ask the question.

I think you misunderstood. LoD wasn't saying what weapons are better than others is obvious. He was saying this question is obviously a 'Find out IC' question. Which weapons are better than others? That's for the player to find out. In fact, I don't even think anyone really knows this answer but staff.

I took Lizzie's comment to mean that part of the issue with the "Find out IC" response from players is that they assume the new player asking the question knows enough about the nature of the game to understand what is and isn't an obvious question they should pursue IC.  And, while I was only claiming it was obvious to myself, as an answer to Musashi's question about examples where certain questions could be answered with a "Find out IC", I think it's a fine point to make.

Veteran players may see a given question and, having played for 10 years, feel that the person asking should magically understand that the nature of their question is one that should be pursued IC.  This was probably something they learned many years ago themselves, but have since come to count as common knowledge -- or as an "obvious" question -- when in fact it is anything but that to the new player.  This assumption -- that the player recognizes the obvious nature of their question, but asks anyways -- is what Lizzie feels contributes to the abrupt or unhelpful response from those veteran players.

If I were to guess, I would probably say that we have about 10% of the people purposefully throwing out snarky and condescending "Find out IC" responses, 10% of the people assuming that's what people are thinking when they write that response, and a big middle ground of people that simply read the message for what it says, and not what it implies.

Do some people misinterpret the message of "Find out IC"?  Of course.  Is it the rampant and soul stealing devil of a response that some people seem to make it out to be?  Probably not.

However, we could probably all benefit from being a little more considerate and taking a bit more time if we choose to respond to a newbie's question, both with regards to their feelings and to keeping the answer within appropriate IC/OOC boundaries of the game.

-LoD

[psionic fungus]

I'd love to see some threads to back this.

Every time I see a 'Find out IC', it seems appropriate.

First... Have you done a search for "find out ic" in the forum?  The results seem to be a lot of people complaining about the phrase... I bet there is a reason for it!  Let's investigate!

I am curious, about those strap on the forearms bucklers.

Do these count as "Shield-Use" or do they just count as "Extra Armor"? Does the code see it as a "Shield"?

If it is simply, seen as "Armor" by the code.. Would it be fine to RP using it as you would a real buckler, then at times??

This would be simple enough to check IC.

Obviously this isn't something you have to check IC, as ICly it obviously works as both... This is an OOC code/syntax issue that cannot really be answered ICly.

I do have some questions, though, about what are recognized bugs, and what are problems caused solely by my own screw-ups or lack of proper syntax.  Input within guidelines?

1.  Are all items IG that describe themselves as vials useable as "vials" in the brewing code?
2.  Are all items created by a successful brew and that have the same item description actually identical?  Even if made with totally different ingredients?
3.  It doesn't appear that long-term successful brewing increases the range of items that a PC can brew.  Is this a bug?  A feature?
4.  If you have the right recipe, it seems impossible to fail in the attempt.  Is this a bug?  A feature?

I can't see any way anyone can answer your questions without revealing IC information, other than to say...

"Find out IC."

Questions 1, 3, and 4 are entirely concerned with code and bug issues.  These cannot be addressed -In Character-!  There is no way to address the fact that you cannot, under ANY circumstances, fuck up trying to make a pill out of two leaves!  You can certainly discover these things in game... But code flaws and known bugs can hardly be considered IC Information.  Even question 2 is only nominally IC.  I think it is a flaw of the code that so many herbs share properties, and -ICLY- it would not be so!

How can one tell if the armor will affect Hiding and Sneaking?
What defines Heavy armor...or are those skills affected by all armors.
If not, Which pieces can one wear without failing on those skills?

find out IC.

Again, this is a syntax/code issue, not an in character one.  A character would easily be able to tell if they are making a lot of noise or unable to move freely... A player does not have such an easy time.

The honest answer is that there is no foolproof way to determine if armor will effect hiding or sneaking.  You just have to be logical about it: keep armor light and flexible if you want to sneak in it.  There is little reason to simply say "find out IC" as the underlying question would probably be more properly phrased as: "How can I find out how armor effects sneaking and hiding while IC?"... A much more difficult question to answer.


So, there you go... Three examples.   There are many, many more.  It's usually the same scenario, someone asks about a code/syntax issue and gets told to "Find out IC", which is a functionally impossible task.

Next time you're thinking about saying "Find out IC." just remember how it can come across...  A little bit of elaboration, and some advice on how to do so would probably make a new player feel a lot more welcome.

Yeah.   

[X-D]

For the record, I liked it better when there was no stars.

As to find out IC....It is a good response and people who posted here saying to be patient because even if a bunch of people post to find out IC, if it is indeed not too IC then somebody will post the answer or how to get to the answer IG.

And that is one thing you definitly need to play this game...Patience.

[Tisiphone]

A further issue is where to put the 'obvious' divider as to what is IC and what is not. Hiding and sneaking are a good example, as PF kindly highlighted in his post. (No sarcasm there, I'm being serious.)

On the side of it being a code issue: some of the commands that break hide or penalize sneak don't appear to make sense at first glance. A good example of this is eq, which I mention only because a simple search of the semi-recent board activity will reveal that information. After all, eq simply checks your current equipment, rather than involving anything attention-getting. Further, a character should know, just like a person does, when he's trying to be sneaky, and even be relatively sure of his own success.

On the side of it being an IG issue: many of those commands that at first glance don't appear to make good sense breaking hide do, if you look at them differently. For example, take eq again: interpret it as quickly patting yourself down, moving around to check yourself over, and generally making a bit of noise as you move stuff around. In this view, it makes sense that it breaks hide.

Some commands are completely obvious, some are rather silly; e.g. kill man or stand (when standing).

I tend to err on the side of Find Out IC on the boards, because in many, many cases, while 'tis easy to assume that the code is buggy, we can't KNOW that (though in others we can; if you teleport into the Silt Sea when getting off of your argosy, something has probably gone wrong). So here, I try to find ways that the way the world is coded makes sense, like eq being patting yourself down rather than checking yourself out. Others might argue that, since there is no echo to the room, it shouldn't be interpreted as something that obvious; the simple truth is, they're right, there is no echo to the room, so we can't know unless an imm comes down and tells us.

At the same time, IG I rigourously use the bug command for things that don't appear to make sense. After all, if I'm wrong, the imms will ignore me.

[Rhyden]

PF, two of those 'Find out IC's in your example were written by staff.

Pretty much speaks for itself.

[Rahnevyn]

A recent code change means the 'eq' command no longer breaks hide.

[psionic fungus]

PF, two of those 'Find out IC's in your example were written by staff.

Pretty much speaks for itself.

Unlike some, I don't believe the staff are infallible.

The staff was wrong.

[Tisiphone]

Nothing to see here, I was being rantish, and that hardly ever solves anything.

[Maybe42or54]

The problem I see with Find out IC, is that is a lazy answer to me. Neither helpful nor encouraging. It does not point me in the wrong direction, and I am still frustrated at trying to find out IC before I asked.


Whenever I see find out IC, I scroll down to the next post. It never adds anything to the conversation.

When I see "find out IC, and here are some links that'll point you in the right direction." I check out those links, and I normally always find out something new. Those are constructive.

[musashi]

I agree that half the time it comes off pompous. And maybe the other half is inappropriate, but not entirely so. I just don't see the reasoning behind people thinking it's something that terrible to hear, and turn it into a big deal. It's other players saying it. People. People whom you are completely allowed to agree, or disagree with. So it gets thrown around a lot... Who gives a fuck. Move on, find your answers elsewhere. It's not like we're treating out newbies like complete and utter garbage here. Ain't that right Musashi?

Sorry to bail out on your RGS, I had to get a few hours sleep before I started hitting the GDB again  I think you're right that by and large newbies here who ask for help are not treated like complete and utter garbage. They generally get the help they need from someone down the course of the thread. I think (or hope) everyone agrees with that. This is a cool game, with cool people playing it.

But IMO, also happen to agree with this:

The problem I see with Find out IC, is that is a lazy answer to me. Neither helpful nor encouraging. It does not point me in the wrong direction, and I am still frustrated at trying to find out IC before I asked.


Whenever I see find out IC, I scroll down to the next post. It never adds anything to the conversation.

When I see "find out IC, and here are some links that'll point you in the right direction." I check out those links, and I normally always find out something new. Those are constructive.

I just don't find a "find out IC" with nothing else to go along with it, helpful in any sense. So my little opinion (for what it's worth) remains that, rather than make a thread explaining how when we say "Find out IC" we mean that in a good fuzzy way ... why not just elaborate a little more to make sure the person reading your reply knows you mean it in a good fuzzy way.

I'm not argueing with anybody. Tisiphone, LoD, Rhyden, Incognito, they all have very good explanations for how just saying "find out IC" does not have to mean "I am being a jerk to you". But since a newbie next month will probably not read this thread to get those awesome explanations before they post a newbie type question that might slightly cross the IC/OOC barrier ... I think odds are, like countless newbies in the threads gone by (do a search for "find out IC" and see for yourself), they'll ask a question ... get that as an answer, and feel like someone was trying to be mean to them. And we're right back where we started before this thread was born.

It just seems to me that it might be a bit more productive in the long run to avoid sayings that will likely come off as seeming rude, unless you're actually trying to be rude, rather than make a thread about how you mean those saying in a good way. That's all.  But I'm sure I've said that enough by now ... so I'll let it die.

Post note: I am /only/ talking about when "find out IC" are in affect the only words in a person's reply. If someone replied to my question the way LoD, or Rhyden did ... even though the end answer is still "find out IC", the wording is easier to percieve as "nice", smilies were used ... and little hints about where to /start/ looking IC were given, making it a very helpful response.

And lastly (I promise!  ):

If I were to guess, I would probably say that we have about 10% of the people purposefully throwing out snarky and condescending "Find out IC" responses, 10% of the people assuming that's what people are thinking when they write that response, and a big middle ground of people that simply read the message for what it says, and not what it implies.

I hope this does not sound snarky, because I REALLY don't want it to, but after reading that bit on the research into miscommunication in emails and text mediums vice speaking to people, I think the percent of folks who assume people are trying to be mean when they read that comment is a bit higher than 10%. Have a look at this pie chart!



Accordingly to these silly little men who spent a lot of time gathering statistics on it, about 89% of people reading a text message believe they are reading the intent of the message correctly. Only 56% are actually doing that. So that leaves about 33% who think they're reading it right, but aren't. 3 times higher than your estimated 10%.

Again, I don't mean to sound like I'm trying to be a smart-ass, I'm just offering up a different opinion, and trying to show you with some kind of citeable source, the reason I came to that opinion.

Thanks! 

[Tisiphone]

This thread is effectively complete. I think everyone agrees with everyone else, but is possibly stressing different points.

[Mood]

This thread is effectively complete. I think everyone agrees with everyone else, but is possibly stressing different points.

Welcome to the internet.

[Shimrod]

I think a lot of frustration stems from this simple scenario:

Players who have been here a decade and know the ins and outs of the game's syntax and branching each have at their fingertips (in-game) supreme knowledge of every guild's abilities, every creature in the world, and every geographic nook and cranny. So even a verging-on-retardation half-giant warrior knows more about magic than my water priest, or more about crafting than my merchant. This game has tried so hard to eliminate stats to avoid twinkage (admirable goal), that the result is opacity that makes everything but fighting so completely mystifying that all you CAN do is twink because you don't know how to do anything else!

"Find out ICly" is used so often, it seems more like hazing the rookies than actual advice. "My knowledge was forged through dark years of travail and sorrow. You will not gain my eternal sekrits until you undergo your own vision-quest." Okay, fine.

[touringCompl3t3]

I like the original post. 

[Barzalene]

Chiming in late. Find out IC usually means very simply, not I'm a dick and I don't want to help you, it either means It will be more fun to find out in game, or it would be cheating to find out out of game.

[jhunter]

Find out IC usually means very simply, not I'm a dick and I don't want to help you, it either means It will be more fun to find out in game, or it would be cheating to find out out of game.

QFT.

[Lizzie]

Chiming in late. Find out IC usually means very simply, not I'm a dick and I don't want to help you, it either means It will be more fun to find out in game, or it would be cheating to find out out of game.

So now all you have to do, is make sure that every newbie to the game reads that one, singular post of yours before ever reading another thing about Armageddon.

Because if they don't, they'll probably assume the same that the rest of us assumed when we were tossed our first "Find out IC" - that you mean "I know the answer and you don't, and I'm not telling you. Hey everyone look at the nub asking stupid nub question let's all tell them find out IC so they feel even more stupid."

That seems to be the general consensus among the newer people who have posted their opinion in this thread. It is the *perception* - whether that's what the phrase means or not, is completely irrelevant. It makes people feel like they are inferior and not one of the "club" that gets to know stuff.

It also doesn't contribute to -any- discussion, it doesn't explain -how- to find out IC for people who are new enough that they have no idea, which is sometimes why they come here asking...it doesn't point anyone in any particular direction, and it is also often incorrect, as has been pointed out with previous references even to a couple of staff responses.

In short, "Find out IC" is perceived as rude and unhelpful. If you want to be -perceived- as a rude and unhelpful person, by all means use the phrase, all by itself, in answers to newbie questions. It won't mean you -are- rude and unhelpful, but that is how you will be perceived.

[LoD]

Chiming in late. Find out IC usually means very simply, not I'm a dick and I don't want to help you, it either means It will be more fun to find out in game, or it would be cheating to find out out of game.

So now all you have to do, is make sure that every newbie to the game reads that one, singular post of yours before ever reading another thing about Armageddon.

Because if they don't, they'll probably assume the same that the rest of us assumed when we were tossed our first "Find out IC" - that you mean "I know the answer and you don't, and I'm not telling you. Hey everyone look at the nub asking stupid nub question let's all tell them find out IC so they feel even more stupid."

That seems to be the general consensus among the newer people who have posted their opinion in this thread. It is the *perception* - whether that's what the phrase means or not, is completely irrelevant. It makes people feel like they are inferior and not one of the "club" that gets to know stuff.

It also doesn't contribute to -any- discussion, it doesn't explain -how- to find out IC for people who are new enough that they have no idea, which is sometimes why they come here asking...it doesn't point anyone in any particular direction, and it is also often incorrect, as has been pointed out with previous references even to a couple of staff responses.

In short, "Find out IC" is perceived as rude and unhelpful. If you want to be -perceived- as a rude and unhelpful person, by all means use the phrase, all by itself, in answers to newbie questions. It won't mean you -are- rude and unhelpful, but that is how you will be perceived.

I'd appreciate your input a lot more if you didn't sound like a broken record attached to an open hand that systematically slaps everyone that doesn't support your message.

I'm sorry that you, and some others, have such a strong reaction to players encouraging you to seek an answer out ICly and choose to view that person as rude and unhelpful instead of choosing to believe they might:

a) Not know the answer to your question, but recognize that elements of the answer should be found ICly.
b) Know the answer, but not know the best places to find the answer OOCly -- since they learned it ICly.
c) Know the answer, but don't expand upon it because while they can keep the content of their response appropriately ambiguous -- they don't want to encourage an open dialog that may result in the spread of IC information by a poster that doesn't understand the difference.

You can wish up to the Immortal Staff, write into mud@armageddon.org, or contact one of the many Helper players that are volunteering to be helpful -- but you choose to throw your question up into the crowded GDB and expect a concise and helpful response.

And you wonder why you get disappointed?

Instead of being sarcastic and antagonistic toward people who aren't supporting your direct line of thinking, perhaps more constructive elements would be appropriate if people still don't seem to agree with your opinion.  Some suggestions might be:

• A Newbies Only forum on the GDB in which only Helpers and Immortal Staff can post.
• Sticky posts with FAQ's in the most common spots new players look for documentation.
• FAQ's sent out with the general character acceptance letter linking them to the Newbie Forum.

There are some occasions and reasons why people may choose to utter the phrase "Find out IC.", and if you want people to respect your opinion and respond with thoughtful and constructive arguments, then you should consider returning the favor.

-LoD

[Krath]

Chiming in late. Find out IC usually means very simply, not I'm a dick and I don't want to help you, it either means It will be more fun to find out in game, or it would be cheating to find out out of game.

So now all you have to do, is make sure that every newbie to the game reads that one, singular post of yours before ever reading another thing about Armageddon.

Because if they don't, they'll probably assume the same that the rest of us assumed when we were tossed our first "Find out IC" - that you mean "I know the answer and you don't, and I'm not telling you. Hey everyone look at the nub asking stupid nub question let's all tell them find out IC so they feel even more stupid."

That seems to be the general consensus among the newer people who have posted their opinion in this thread. It is the *perception* - whether that's what the phrase means or not, is completely irrelevant. It makes people feel like they are inferior and not one of the "club" that gets to know stuff.

It also doesn't contribute to -any- discussion, it doesn't explain -how- to find out IC for people who are new enough that they have no idea, which is sometimes why they come here asking...it doesn't point anyone in any particular direction, and it is also often incorrect, as has been pointed out with previous references even to a couple of staff responses.

In short, "Find out IC" is perceived as rude and unhelpful. If you want to be -perceived- as a rude and unhelpful person, by all means use the phrase, all by itself, in answers to newbie questions. It won't mean you -are- rude and unhelpful, but that is how you will be perceived.

Lizzie you are wrong in your statement except how people may perceive it. Being here from almost the beginning of arm, Find out IC has ONLY ever meant It will be more fun to find out in game, or It would be cheating to find out ooc. And no it doesn' add to the discussion it gives them the answer the need, figure it out for yourself because if it isn't in the helpfiles odds are your PC would not know about it. And, if you dont have want to take the time to read over the extensive documentation and helpfiles, then thats your problem.

[Lizzie]

LOD wrote:

You can wish up to the Immortal Staff, write into mud@armageddon.org, or contact one of the many Helper players that are volunteering to be helpful -- but you choose to throw your question up into the crowded GDB and expect a concise and helpful response.

And you wonder why you get disappointed?

Me? I've never asked a question on the GDB that would result in a "find out IC" answer. I don't know where you got that idea, I never said I had. I don't "get disappointed" because after having lurked here for almost a month before ever making my account over a year ago, I learned not to bother, and to read the help files and the documentation instead. Because most of the information I would need to know, you can find out OOC, not IC.

Krath, I stated my opinion. An opinion can't be wrong, or right. It's an opinion. And telling me that I'm wrong about feeling the way I feel, is being arguementative and non-contributory to the conversation.

[The 4th Kankman]

An opinion can be 'wrong' by being based on false assumptions and incorrect facts.

Yours qualifies in both spheres, concurrently ignoring the primary arguments in the last two posters' statements.

The 'Help' files are there for a reason.  Use them liberally, and understand that this MUD is not designed for those
demanding the truth about the coded 'mysteries' of the game through a casual, hand-me-down Q&A session.
The MUD itself is based on the continual exploration of these features, with some exceptions (several of which
turn out to be bugs), and does not cater to those seeking a direct answer to most of their coded quagmires.

There are many gaming multiverses that will readily provide the type of real-time, newbie-catering dialogue that
you're suggesting.  This is not one of them.

~ The 4th Kankman of the Armageddon

[Oleupata]

Inflammatory thread necro. That's pretty impressive.