How would you improve city elves?

[spawnloser]

The delineation between city and desert elves just complicates things and creates separation where there needn't be any. 

I think the delineation contributes to the game world both at a skill level (what each is good at) and a RP level (city tribe vs. desert tribe).

That's a great thing to say.  Now support it.  Why do you think it contributes...?  What does it contribute?  Is this a good contribution?  Is this a contribution which could be met in any other number of ways?  I said why I thought it took away from the race on the whole.  You say that tribal vs city is a good thing?  We already have that... tribal humans, city humans, tribal elves (note that ALL elves are tribal, even when they are a city elf tribe).  Why does there have to be a city and a desert version for both races?  Why don't tribal humans have any coded difference from the city human after generations of living in the wastes while the city humans have had generations to adapt to city life?  Heck, this is a good question for Qzzrble to answer too.

making them all one race encourages people to treat them the same and also encourages people playing them to think the same in both roles, which in my mind, they should be doing.

I for one don't really think Desert Elves and City Elves shouldn't be treated exactly the same, the reason being they are quite different. Desert elves live in the desert, and have for generations upon generations. Their culture is much different than the city-dwelling elves, who have adapted to life in the city. No longer is it required for them to run massive distances in the desert, so they don't run as much and lose this ability to do so for so long.  At least that's how it goes in my little mind....

Notice how mountain goats are different from domesticated goats? Same species and whatnot, but adapted to different environments.

Now I wouldn't at all be against having a Desert Human race added with a karma requirement....

How is the culture so different?  You should talk to Malifaxis about playing a desert elf merchant.  He played the sneakiest dick that cheated everyone out of ridiculous amounts of money... but wait!  Isn't that a city elf thing?  No.  Elven culture is elven culture around the whole world.  Do either city or desert elves ride?  No, I don't think so.  How do you adapt to life in the city?  What abilities did they develop?  Not much.  Code-wise, city elves get VERY little that desert elves don't, but desert elves get a few things that city elves don't.  Granted, this is why desert elves require karma, but that isn't what is being discussed... we're discussing the inherent merits of having a race divided the way this one is.

What I'm saying is that the elven culture honors their ability to make due without mounts... they are proud of this ability and they look down on people that ride as weaker than they are.  This is every single elf and not just desert elves... but can the city elves run anywhere near what a desert elf can?  Sometimes, but only in a city and only if the roads are coded a certain way.  Why is this?  Personally, I think how the roads were built was inconsistent...  BUT, that's beside the point.  City elves have less mobility than ANY other character in the game because of their cultural taboo against riding a mount or in a vehicle... but they are not recompensed in any way that makes a difference in the long run.

Yes, I am biased by having read/played Dark Sun before this... but I GREATLY prefer the elves of that over how they are portrayed in Armageddon.  Elves were all nomadic, moving all over the place, often stopping at cities to rip people off over what the elves are selling and steal what they can't get from dishonest merchanting.  In Armageddon, we have elves that do the moving... and we have elves that do the ripping off.  This is how they are treated by the majority of the players not playing one... and in many ways are how they are portrayed by the people playing them too.  If a character is a mundane desert elf, they're a ranger.  If a character is a mundane city elf, they're a sneaky.  How multi-dimensional!  (I leave magickers out of this as they are not the majority of an elf tribe.  Before anyone start trying to refute this, just remember that PCs do NOT represent the actuality when considering tribe/village/clan/family/city demographics.)  Now... this generalization (except when people are ornery about magickers and magicker plots and blather blather blah blah blah) is quite prominent.  Someone sees a city elf and they'll often say something in game like, "Oh, watch out.  That skinny gonna steal your crap!"  Then, when the same someone sees a desert elf, they're more apt to say something more along the lines of, "Oh, a skinny from the wastes.  Yech."  Why is this?  Both elves should be trying to get something for nothing (or something for a LOT less than it's worth) from everyone around them.  Why do people not distrust the desert elves nearly as much as the city elves?  I maintain that it is because people know something about both races and what code benefits they have... and what code limitations, like which classes are available to the races.  Continuing, I maintain that this is bad and a sort of meta-gaming, intentional or not.

All of this would be fixed by having only one race with the same code benefits.  Maybe curtail a bit of the desert elves' ability to run in the race that is both... or just do away with roads, considering the fact that roads are somewhat unrealistic anyway what with noone to maintain them and a desert to wear them away to nothing after a while.

Remember, I'm not asking why there are differences.  I'm asking this:  "Why, from a completely OOC viewpoint when looking at the game as a whole, SHOULD there be differences?"

[Fnord]

That's a great thing to say.  Now support it.  Why do you think it contributes...?  What does it contribute?  Is this a good contribution?  Is this a contribution which could be met in any other number of ways?  I said why I thought it took away from the race on the whole.  You say that tribal vs city is a good thing?  We already have that... tribal humans, city humans, tribal elves (note that ALL elves are tribal, even when they are a city elf tribe).  Why does there have to be a city and a desert version for both races?  Why don't tribal humans have any coded difference from the city human after generations of living in the wastes while the city humans have had generations to adapt to city life?  Heck, this is a good question for Qzzrble to answer too.

I sense an epeen growing a bit turgid.

Of course, I already (briefly) answered your first two questions in my previous response and due to the favorable tone the third could probably be guessed accurately. I'm not sure what you mean by the fourth question.

Your fifth and sixth questions as to why the two evolved differently as opposed to tribal/city humans is one I cannot answer as a non-immortal. Hell, I'm not even sure if city/tribal humans -are- the same code wise. If we're simply talking movement, both city and tribal humans use mounts, where as elves that run have adapted to their particular environments. If I had to guess from a RP perspective, it would be from looking at the histories when the Sorcerer Kings conquered several elven tribes. Maybe c-elves are their descendants. Just a guess though.

The coded difference that seems to annoy you the most--movement--just hasn't been that much of an issue for me. Dress right and carry a tent. Sure, my c-elves run around outdoors with more... planning than a d-elf but that's the idea. Each has their own element, skill set, strengths, weaknesses, culture, and so on. I'm not opposed to c-elves being tweaked, or any race for that matter. The RP/code issues of c-elves has just never been an issue for me. I enjoy the shit outta both.

[Tisiphone]

Spawnloser, where'd you go for so long? I missed you.

[spawnloser]

Fnord, I don't think you did answer my first few questions, really.  You just said that you thought it added at the RP level and at the skill level.  How does it add?  It restricts some elves to certain classes and other elves to other classes... and causes people to treat them differently (as I detailed) when they're all sneaky, dirty elves and should be treated the same because they're ALL going to try to cheat you or steal from you or both.  (See how I told you HOW it added to or took from the game... not just in what broad category it added to or took from.  This is what I'm looking for you to do.)

Oh, and Tisiphone, I was really busy with school.  This quarter things suddenly calmed down... though next quarter I expect to be scarce again since it's my last quarter.

[musashi]

I would think that people should treat city elves and desert elves a little differently though, the same way they should treat a city human and a tribal human a bit differently.

From my understanding, sure you'll hate both of them because they're good for nothing neckers, but you can at least expect the desert elf to be a bit more rough and tough than someone who's been in a city their whole life ... and likewise, you could also expect them to be a bit more "simple" in the head since hey ... tribals are all idiots wearing animal pelts yeah?