How would you improve city elves?

[Fnord]

Gripes with c-elves seems to be popular lately, so let's open up the discussion. Even though this is under "code discussion" this can also cover RP improvements. Granted, I don't know if c-elves will even exist in Arm 2.0, or if imms have time or motivation to change a racial culture at this stage of Arm 1.0, but what the hell.

* A non-Rinth/Under-Tuluk coded elf tribe/gang/family in both Allanak and Tuluk. Doesn't even need to have a coded camp, just as some d-elf tribes don't. Still, this would give elven players in both cities that didn't want to adopt a family (by joining a clan) some culture to RP around.

[Yam]

A requirement of 1 karma.

[Mood]

A requirement of 1 karma.

[Tisiphone]

A requirement of 1 karma.

Why?

[Mood]

A requirement of 1 karma.

Why?

Why do desert elves require 1 karma?

[Tisiphone]

A requirement of 1 karma.

Why?

Why do desert elves require 1 karma?

So, rather than chasing each other around like smartasses, how about we actually have a discussion? I'm curious why you think city-elves should be a 1-karma required race. The question as I see it breaks down along these lines:

• What are the current problems as you see them?
• Are the problems primarily code problems, concept problems, or roleplay problems? Some combination?
• Why do you feel that the karma system holds the solution to these problems?

[Synthesis]

I'd make a certain number of coded tribes in 'nak, Tuluk, Red Storm, and Luir's, then require all normal city-elf applications to pick one and stick with it (much like d-elves are now).  Each city-elf tribe would have an enclave within with its own "guards," a secure common room that PCs could use, and maybe a small stall in a nearby market (or some other legitimate business activity).  I'd give each tribe a separate IC board so they could have long-standing grudges and long memories.

I'd give these coded city-elf tribes a dedicated staffer.

I'd draw up some documentation so PCs would know how to react to certain tribes ICly:  "Tribe X is known for its close ties to the greater merchant houses," "Tribe Y is rumored to have ties to the 'rinth," etc. 

I'd draw up further documentation for the law enforcement within cities making it clear that city-elf PCs aren't merely there for the comic relief of the garrison, but in fact constitute a very valuable and lucrative subset of society...a subset not worth defending quite as much as a merchant house, but certainly worth more as a cohesive whole than an equal number of unorganized commoners.

I'd give city elves some ability to make money via NPCs that doesn't involve stealing from or blatantly bilking PCs as a first step.  I mean, the simple fact that city-elves are pretty much restricted from hunting puts them at a tremendous disadvantage when it comes to the ability to generate coins.  Maybe certain tribes would have "staked claims" on obsidian deposits, salt grebbing, spice sifting, or other natural resources around their city.

I would modify the combat code so that strength isn't at such a massive advantage over agility within the human-elf range.

I'd give all city elves, regardless of class, a moderate ability to sneak/hide within the city.

Maybe I'd bump them up to 1 karma, given these new advantages.

[Sokotra]

I didn't really think they were nerfed or anything to begin with, but now that I think about them not having coded city-tribes and things like that... well...

Good ideas, Synthesis... nothing that would cause any unbalance or anything, but would just make the race make more sense in general and allow them to be played, more easily, as they are supposed to be played.

[Armaddict]

My understanding was that city elves did not require tribes because over generations of time in such compacted space, families rise and fall all the time.

The idea is that they are tribal in nature and feel the pull of tribalism, and hence why they trust no one save those they test.  Those tests do not initiate you into their 'tribe', but forges a relationship similar to what they would feel.

Forcing city elves into a tribe seems a little drastic, though I've no qualms with the option being there.  Without the race in arm 2, however...that's a lot of work and maintenence.

[Dalmeth]

Forcing city elves into a tribe seems a little drastic, though I've no qualms with the option being there.  Without the race in arm 2, however...that's a lot of work and maintenence.

I think one thing we can learn from city elves is that any society whose personality is outlined in the documentation needs in-game support.  PCs and someone on staff to guide things along is preferable, but NPCs will work just as well.  Otherwise, the society mentioned in the documentation simply doesn't exist, and players who use that race will not follow the guidelines.

[Mood]

A requirement of 1 karma.

Why?

Why do desert elves require 1 karma?

So, rather than chasing each other around like smartasses, how about we actually have a discussion? I'm curious why you think city-elves should be a 1-karma required race. The question as I see it breaks down along these lines:

• What are the current problems as you see them?
• Are the problems primarily code problems, concept problems, or roleplay problems? Some combination?
• Why do you feel that the karma system holds the solution to these problems?

My point was that they should be restricted for the same reason desert elves are - they are hard to roleplay properly, especially for a player new to the game.

I'd also like to see more coded city-elf tribes, and even further, I'd like to have two 'major' clans that can be joined in the Hall of Kings (similar to the way the ATV and SLK are set up). I doubt it will happen, with Reborn looming on the horizon, but I think it could add to the game.

[Hot_Dancer]

I skimmed the posts, but Synthesis has it. In general, force them into tribes.

A tribeless city elf may as well have crippled legs and be riding a kank, as far as a tribed elf would see them.

If you want to play that type of role, it may be better to email in a role as one whose been outcast from one coded tribe or another, or is from a tiny family that has -somehow- managed to survive during an outcast period and not been raided and murdered for sport or mercy. A tribal elf thinks, "They wont survive the next season anyways, put them out of their misery and give any wealth they have to someone who can actually use it."

[Maybe42or54]

I would definately force them into tribes, like Synthesis said, much like d-elves are.
I'd give them the natural ability to blend in and sneak in their environment, much like d-elves are.
I'd also suggest more In city ways to make money. Maybe -their- tribe has blockaded a road in the 'rinth and you can't pass unless you pay a toll, then that toll is split up between the PCs in the tribe.
They are naturally crafty, smart, and good with their hands, so why wouldn't they be setting up a GMH ran by their family?

I think if they had a viable way to make legite money, vice only illegal ways, it would go a long way.

[jstorrie]

Bonuses to running, sneaking and hiding in urban areas, especially in crowds.

[jstorrie]

And, if they were a 1 karma race instead of a 0 karma race, subguild level urban stealth as a racial ability, much like desert elves get desert stealth as a racial ability.

[Armaddict]

Bonuses to running, sneaking and hiding in urban areas, especially in crowds.

Already done.

Fastest runners.  Sneak and Hide both heavily based on agility, which elves have the highest of among city dwellers.

[Yam]

A requirement of 1 karma.

Why?

Because they are difficult to play correctly and a lot of people think of them as fast humans with cleptomania and complain about things on the forums which are integral to being a dang elf.

Not that the current state of city elves does not warrant a bit of complaining. It's just that certain arguments seem to be poorly informed of the flavor of elfyness.

[alger]

Aren't there at least 3 tribes you can start off as a city elf?  Well not through the hall of kings, but if you build your character history around it, it is possible to start that way with the character a part of the tribe codedly and all.  (I mean you'll have the tribe come up with the list of tribes which you get coded advantages/disadvantages from)  Also I kinda like the tribe of one aspect that city elves have an option of as well.  It gives a different aspect to them.

I do agree though that elves, especially tribe of one elves are very difficult to play.  Rarely do I really see elves go full out on their elfiness, even with seasoned players.

One thing that I would want to see changed though is the height difference between humans and elves and finally being able to hide your mdesc.  You know it's really hard to steal if the known thief stands a head taller than everybody else.  There needs to be a chance to blend in somewhat without using a human as a front or using some hide/sneak skill.

[Ueda]

I wouldn't mind seeing a IG coded tribe in 'nak or tuluk.

Other than that nothing.

[spawnloser]

Why do desert elves require 1 karma?

Desert elves require 1 karma because they have additional coded benefits that city elves do not get that require more trust for you to play them correctly.  City elves are easier to play by the documentation because they can't run from Tuluk to Allanak without a pause to rest like some desert elves can.

Personally, I would improve elves over the board by making them one race that has a 1 karma requirement that have the same stats, coded benefits, etc.  The delineation between city and desert elves just complicates things and creates separation where there needn't be any.  There can still be tribes that have their 'home' in a city and others with their 'home' outside... but making them all one race encourages people to treat them the same and also encourages people playing them to think the same in both roles, which in my mind, they should be doing.

[Fnord]

The delineation between city and desert elves just complicates things and creates separation where there needn't be any. 

I think the delineation contributes to the game world both at a skill level (what each is good at) and a RP level (city tribe vs. desert tribe).

[Qzzrbl]

making them all one race encourages people to treat them the same and also encourages people playing them to think the same in both roles, which in my mind, they should be doing.

I for one don't really think Desert Elves and City Elves shouldn't be treated exactly the same, the reason being they are quite different. Desert elves live in the desert, and have for generations upon generations. Their culture is much different than the city-dwelling elves, who have adapted to life in the city. No longer is it required for them to run massive distances in the desert, so they don't run as much and lose this ability to do so for so long.  At least that's how it goes in my little mind....

Notice how mountain goats are different from domesticated goats? Same species and whatnot, but adapted to different environments.

Now I wouldn't at all be against having a Desert Human race added with a karma requirement....

[psionic fungus]

More Documentation.

More Tribes.

More NPC/Staff Level Support.



In that order.

[Synthesis]

Notice how mountain goats are different from domesticated goats? Same species and whatnot, but adapted to different environments.

Actually, doing a little fact-checking...domestic goats and mountain goats aren't the same species.  They're not even the same genus. You have to go all the way back to the subfamily Caprinae before they get grouped together.

/derail

[Qzzrbl]

Notice how mountain goats are different from domesticated goats? Same species and whatnot, but adapted to different environments.

Actually, doing a little fact-checking...domestic goats and mountain goats aren't the same species.  They're not even the same genus. You have to go all the way back to the subfamily Caprinae before they get grouped together.

/derail

Huh.... Well I've certainly learned something new today.











Erm, replace my previous goat references with dog breeds.