How would you improve city elves?

[Fnord]

Gripes with c-elves seems to be popular lately, so let's open up the discussion. Even though this is under "code discussion" this can also cover RP improvements. Granted, I don't know if c-elves will even exist in Arm 2.0, or if imms have time or motivation to change a racial culture at this stage of Arm 1.0, but what the hell.

* A non-Rinth/Under-Tuluk coded elf tribe/gang/family in both Allanak and Tuluk. Doesn't even need to have a coded camp, just as some d-elf tribes don't. Still, this would give elven players in both cities that didn't want to adopt a family (by joining a clan) some culture to RP around.

[Yam]

A requirement of 1 karma.

[Mood]

A requirement of 1 karma.

[Tisiphone]

A requirement of 1 karma.

Why?

[Mood]

A requirement of 1 karma.

Why?

Why do desert elves require 1 karma?

[Tisiphone]

A requirement of 1 karma.

Why?

Why do desert elves require 1 karma?

So, rather than chasing each other around like smartasses, how about we actually have a discussion? I'm curious why you think city-elves should be a 1-karma required race. The question as I see it breaks down along these lines:

• What are the current problems as you see them?
• Are the problems primarily code problems, concept problems, or roleplay problems? Some combination?
• Why do you feel that the karma system holds the solution to these problems?

[Synthesis]

I'd make a certain number of coded tribes in 'nak, Tuluk, Red Storm, and Luir's, then require all normal city-elf applications to pick one and stick with it (much like d-elves are now).  Each city-elf tribe would have an enclave within with its own "guards," a secure common room that PCs could use, and maybe a small stall in a nearby market (or some other legitimate business activity).  I'd give each tribe a separate IC board so they could have long-standing grudges and long memories.

I'd give these coded city-elf tribes a dedicated staffer.

I'd draw up some documentation so PCs would know how to react to certain tribes ICly:  "Tribe X is known for its close ties to the greater merchant houses," "Tribe Y is rumored to have ties to the 'rinth," etc. 

I'd draw up further documentation for the law enforcement within cities making it clear that city-elf PCs aren't merely there for the comic relief of the garrison, but in fact constitute a very valuable and lucrative subset of society...a subset not worth defending quite as much as a merchant house, but certainly worth more as a cohesive whole than an equal number of unorganized commoners.

I'd give city elves some ability to make money via NPCs that doesn't involve stealing from or blatantly bilking PCs as a first step.  I mean, the simple fact that city-elves are pretty much restricted from hunting puts them at a tremendous disadvantage when it comes to the ability to generate coins.  Maybe certain tribes would have "staked claims" on obsidian deposits, salt grebbing, spice sifting, or other natural resources around their city.

I would modify the combat code so that strength isn't at such a massive advantage over agility within the human-elf range.

I'd give all city elves, regardless of class, a moderate ability to sneak/hide within the city.

Maybe I'd bump them up to 1 karma, given these new advantages.

[Sokotra]

I didn't really think they were nerfed or anything to begin with, but now that I think about them not having coded city-tribes and things like that... well...

Good ideas, Synthesis... nothing that would cause any unbalance or anything, but would just make the race make more sense in general and allow them to be played, more easily, as they are supposed to be played.

[Armaddict]

My understanding was that city elves did not require tribes because over generations of time in such compacted space, families rise and fall all the time.

The idea is that they are tribal in nature and feel the pull of tribalism, and hence why they trust no one save those they test.  Those tests do not initiate you into their 'tribe', but forges a relationship similar to what they would feel.

Forcing city elves into a tribe seems a little drastic, though I've no qualms with the option being there.  Without the race in arm 2, however...that's a lot of work and maintenence.

[Dalmeth]

Forcing city elves into a tribe seems a little drastic, though I've no qualms with the option being there.  Without the race in arm 2, however...that's a lot of work and maintenence.

I think one thing we can learn from city elves is that any society whose personality is outlined in the documentation needs in-game support.  PCs and someone on staff to guide things along is preferable, but NPCs will work just as well.  Otherwise, the society mentioned in the documentation simply doesn't exist, and players who use that race will not follow the guidelines.

[Mood]

A requirement of 1 karma.

Why?

Why do desert elves require 1 karma?

So, rather than chasing each other around like smartasses, how about we actually have a discussion? I'm curious why you think city-elves should be a 1-karma required race. The question as I see it breaks down along these lines:

• What are the current problems as you see them?
• Are the problems primarily code problems, concept problems, or roleplay problems? Some combination?
• Why do you feel that the karma system holds the solution to these problems?

My point was that they should be restricted for the same reason desert elves are - they are hard to roleplay properly, especially for a player new to the game.

I'd also like to see more coded city-elf tribes, and even further, I'd like to have two 'major' clans that can be joined in the Hall of Kings (similar to the way the ATV and SLK are set up). I doubt it will happen, with Reborn looming on the horizon, but I think it could add to the game.

[Hot_Dancer]

I skimmed the posts, but Synthesis has it. In general, force them into tribes.

A tribeless city elf may as well have crippled legs and be riding a kank, as far as a tribed elf would see them.

If you want to play that type of role, it may be better to email in a role as one whose been outcast from one coded tribe or another, or is from a tiny family that has -somehow- managed to survive during an outcast period and not been raided and murdered for sport or mercy. A tribal elf thinks, "They wont survive the next season anyways, put them out of their misery and give any wealth they have to someone who can actually use it."

[Maybe42or54]

I would definately force them into tribes, like Synthesis said, much like d-elves are.
I'd give them the natural ability to blend in and sneak in their environment, much like d-elves are.
I'd also suggest more In city ways to make money. Maybe -their- tribe has blockaded a road in the 'rinth and you can't pass unless you pay a toll, then that toll is split up between the PCs in the tribe.
They are naturally crafty, smart, and good with their hands, so why wouldn't they be setting up a GMH ran by their family?

I think if they had a viable way to make legite money, vice only illegal ways, it would go a long way.

[jstorrie]

Bonuses to running, sneaking and hiding in urban areas, especially in crowds.

[jstorrie]

And, if they were a 1 karma race instead of a 0 karma race, subguild level urban stealth as a racial ability, much like desert elves get desert stealth as a racial ability.

[Armaddict]

Bonuses to running, sneaking and hiding in urban areas, especially in crowds.

Already done.

Fastest runners.  Sneak and Hide both heavily based on agility, which elves have the highest of among city dwellers.

[Yam]

A requirement of 1 karma.

Why?

Because they are difficult to play correctly and a lot of people think of them as fast humans with cleptomania and complain about things on the forums which are integral to being a dang elf.

Not that the current state of city elves does not warrant a bit of complaining. It's just that certain arguments seem to be poorly informed of the flavor of elfyness.

[alger]

Aren't there at least 3 tribes you can start off as a city elf?  Well not through the hall of kings, but if you build your character history around it, it is possible to start that way with the character a part of the tribe codedly and all.  (I mean you'll have the tribe come up with the list of tribes which you get coded advantages/disadvantages from)  Also I kinda like the tribe of one aspect that city elves have an option of as well.  It gives a different aspect to them.

I do agree though that elves, especially tribe of one elves are very difficult to play.  Rarely do I really see elves go full out on their elfiness, even with seasoned players.

One thing that I would want to see changed though is the height difference between humans and elves and finally being able to hide your mdesc.  You know it's really hard to steal if the known thief stands a head taller than everybody else.  There needs to be a chance to blend in somewhat without using a human as a front or using some hide/sneak skill.

[Ueda]

I wouldn't mind seeing a IG coded tribe in 'nak or tuluk.

Other than that nothing.

[spawnloser]

Why do desert elves require 1 karma?

Desert elves require 1 karma because they have additional coded benefits that city elves do not get that require more trust for you to play them correctly.  City elves are easier to play by the documentation because they can't run from Tuluk to Allanak without a pause to rest like some desert elves can.

Personally, I would improve elves over the board by making them one race that has a 1 karma requirement that have the same stats, coded benefits, etc.  The delineation between city and desert elves just complicates things and creates separation where there needn't be any.  There can still be tribes that have their 'home' in a city and others with their 'home' outside... but making them all one race encourages people to treat them the same and also encourages people playing them to think the same in both roles, which in my mind, they should be doing.

[Fnord]

The delineation between city and desert elves just complicates things and creates separation where there needn't be any. 

I think the delineation contributes to the game world both at a skill level (what each is good at) and a RP level (city tribe vs. desert tribe).

[Qzzrbl]

making them all one race encourages people to treat them the same and also encourages people playing them to think the same in both roles, which in my mind, they should be doing.

I for one don't really think Desert Elves and City Elves shouldn't be treated exactly the same, the reason being they are quite different. Desert elves live in the desert, and have for generations upon generations. Their culture is much different than the city-dwelling elves, who have adapted to life in the city. No longer is it required for them to run massive distances in the desert, so they don't run as much and lose this ability to do so for so long.  At least that's how it goes in my little mind....

Notice how mountain goats are different from domesticated goats? Same species and whatnot, but adapted to different environments.

Now I wouldn't at all be against having a Desert Human race added with a karma requirement....

[psionic fungus]

More Documentation.

More Tribes.

More NPC/Staff Level Support.



In that order.

[Synthesis]

Notice how mountain goats are different from domesticated goats? Same species and whatnot, but adapted to different environments.

Actually, doing a little fact-checking...domestic goats and mountain goats aren't the same species.  They're not even the same genus. You have to go all the way back to the subfamily Caprinae before they get grouped together.

/derail

[Qzzrbl]

Notice how mountain goats are different from domesticated goats? Same species and whatnot, but adapted to different environments.

Actually, doing a little fact-checking...domestic goats and mountain goats aren't the same species.  They're not even the same genus. You have to go all the way back to the subfamily Caprinae before they get grouped together.

/derail

Huh.... Well I've certainly learned something new today.











Erm, replace my previous goat references with dog breeds.

[spawnloser]

The delineation between city and desert elves just complicates things and creates separation where there needn't be any. 

I think the delineation contributes to the game world both at a skill level (what each is good at) and a RP level (city tribe vs. desert tribe).

That's a great thing to say.  Now support it.  Why do you think it contributes...?  What does it contribute?  Is this a good contribution?  Is this a contribution which could be met in any other number of ways?  I said why I thought it took away from the race on the whole.  You say that tribal vs city is a good thing?  We already have that... tribal humans, city humans, tribal elves (note that ALL elves are tribal, even when they are a city elf tribe).  Why does there have to be a city and a desert version for both races?  Why don't tribal humans have any coded difference from the city human after generations of living in the wastes while the city humans have had generations to adapt to city life?  Heck, this is a good question for Qzzrble to answer too.

making them all one race encourages people to treat them the same and also encourages people playing them to think the same in both roles, which in my mind, they should be doing.

I for one don't really think Desert Elves and City Elves shouldn't be treated exactly the same, the reason being they are quite different. Desert elves live in the desert, and have for generations upon generations. Their culture is much different than the city-dwelling elves, who have adapted to life in the city. No longer is it required for them to run massive distances in the desert, so they don't run as much and lose this ability to do so for so long.  At least that's how it goes in my little mind....

Notice how mountain goats are different from domesticated goats? Same species and whatnot, but adapted to different environments.

Now I wouldn't at all be against having a Desert Human race added with a karma requirement....

How is the culture so different?  You should talk to Malifaxis about playing a desert elf merchant.  He played the sneakiest dick that cheated everyone out of ridiculous amounts of money... but wait!  Isn't that a city elf thing?  No.  Elven culture is elven culture around the whole world.  Do either city or desert elves ride?  No, I don't think so.  How do you adapt to life in the city?  What abilities did they develop?  Not much.  Code-wise, city elves get VERY little that desert elves don't, but desert elves get a few things that city elves don't.  Granted, this is why desert elves require karma, but that isn't what is being discussed... we're discussing the inherent merits of having a race divided the way this one is.

What I'm saying is that the elven culture honors their ability to make due without mounts... they are proud of this ability and they look down on people that ride as weaker than they are.  This is every single elf and not just desert elves... but can the city elves run anywhere near what a desert elf can?  Sometimes, but only in a city and only if the roads are coded a certain way.  Why is this?  Personally, I think how the roads were built was inconsistent...  BUT, that's beside the point.  City elves have less mobility than ANY other character in the game because of their cultural taboo against riding a mount or in a vehicle... but they are not recompensed in any way that makes a difference in the long run.

Yes, I am biased by having read/played Dark Sun before this... but I GREATLY prefer the elves of that over how they are portrayed in Armageddon.  Elves were all nomadic, moving all over the place, often stopping at cities to rip people off over what the elves are selling and steal what they can't get from dishonest merchanting.  In Armageddon, we have elves that do the moving... and we have elves that do the ripping off.  This is how they are treated by the majority of the players not playing one... and in many ways are how they are portrayed by the people playing them too.  If a character is a mundane desert elf, they're a ranger.  If a character is a mundane city elf, they're a sneaky.  How multi-dimensional!  (I leave magickers out of this as they are not the majority of an elf tribe.  Before anyone start trying to refute this, just remember that PCs do NOT represent the actuality when considering tribe/village/clan/family/city demographics.)  Now... this generalization (except when people are ornery about magickers and magicker plots and blather blather blah blah blah) is quite prominent.  Someone sees a city elf and they'll often say something in game like, "Oh, watch out.  That skinny gonna steal your crap!"  Then, when the same someone sees a desert elf, they're more apt to say something more along the lines of, "Oh, a skinny from the wastes.  Yech."  Why is this?  Both elves should be trying to get something for nothing (or something for a LOT less than it's worth) from everyone around them.  Why do people not distrust the desert elves nearly as much as the city elves?  I maintain that it is because people know something about both races and what code benefits they have... and what code limitations, like which classes are available to the races.  Continuing, I maintain that this is bad and a sort of meta-gaming, intentional or not.

All of this would be fixed by having only one race with the same code benefits.  Maybe curtail a bit of the desert elves' ability to run in the race that is both... or just do away with roads, considering the fact that roads are somewhat unrealistic anyway what with noone to maintain them and a desert to wear them away to nothing after a while.

Remember, I'm not asking why there are differences.  I'm asking this:  "Why, from a completely OOC viewpoint when looking at the game as a whole, SHOULD there be differences?"

[Fnord]

That's a great thing to say.  Now support it.  Why do you think it contributes...?  What does it contribute?  Is this a good contribution?  Is this a contribution which could be met in any other number of ways?  I said why I thought it took away from the race on the whole.  You say that tribal vs city is a good thing?  We already have that... tribal humans, city humans, tribal elves (note that ALL elves are tribal, even when they are a city elf tribe).  Why does there have to be a city and a desert version for both races?  Why don't tribal humans have any coded difference from the city human after generations of living in the wastes while the city humans have had generations to adapt to city life?  Heck, this is a good question for Qzzrble to answer too.

I sense an epeen growing a bit turgid.

Of course, I already (briefly) answered your first two questions in my previous response and due to the favorable tone the third could probably be guessed accurately. I'm not sure what you mean by the fourth question.

Your fifth and sixth questions as to why the two evolved differently as opposed to tribal/city humans is one I cannot answer as a non-immortal. Hell, I'm not even sure if city/tribal humans -are- the same code wise. If we're simply talking movement, both city and tribal humans use mounts, where as elves that run have adapted to their particular environments. If I had to guess from a RP perspective, it would be from looking at the histories when the Sorcerer Kings conquered several elven tribes. Maybe c-elves are their descendants. Just a guess though.

The coded difference that seems to annoy you the most--movement--just hasn't been that much of an issue for me. Dress right and carry a tent. Sure, my c-elves run around outdoors with more... planning than a d-elf but that's the idea. Each has their own element, skill set, strengths, weaknesses, culture, and so on. I'm not opposed to c-elves being tweaked, or any race for that matter. The RP/code issues of c-elves has just never been an issue for me. I enjoy the shit outta both.

[Tisiphone]

Spawnloser, where'd you go for so long? I missed you.

[spawnloser]

Fnord, I don't think you did answer my first few questions, really.  You just said that you thought it added at the RP level and at the skill level.  How does it add?  It restricts some elves to certain classes and other elves to other classes... and causes people to treat them differently (as I detailed) when they're all sneaky, dirty elves and should be treated the same because they're ALL going to try to cheat you or steal from you or both.  (See how I told you HOW it added to or took from the game... not just in what broad category it added to or took from.  This is what I'm looking for you to do.)

Oh, and Tisiphone, I was really busy with school.  This quarter things suddenly calmed down... though next quarter I expect to be scarce again since it's my last quarter.

[musashi]

I would think that people should treat city elves and desert elves a little differently though, the same way they should treat a city human and a tribal human a bit differently.

From my understanding, sure you'll hate both of them because they're good for nothing neckers, but you can at least expect the desert elf to be a bit more rough and tough than someone who's been in a city their whole life ... and likewise, you could also expect them to be a bit more "simple" in the head since hey ... tribals are all idiots wearing animal pelts yeah?