Capital Punishment Overused

[Janna]

I agree with Gimf on this one. I've had a few Templars and a noble. My first Templar was a bitch. It was a bit different when you're actually -in- the role versus looking at it from the outside, and you do tend to 'power' through the first little bit as you find where you stand and what you can do. In general though, and most who have played with me can attest to it, I hate PKing characters unless I am absolutely forced to do so. To a fault even, given that I have over twenty dead characters in the span of like two years and I -still- see some PC's alive that I let of the hook back then. 

As to 'lowering' themselves to notice petty crimes or react to etiquette mistakes and the like, that really depends on the Nobles mood, House of origin or the Templars desire to shake you down for coin. If I see a Fale ripping on a commoner for fashion, thats IC to me, not ooc lowering themselves. If I see a Lyksae beating the crap out of a commoner verbally for not showing due respect, or the like..That would be IC to me as well since that PC would be accustomed to order and discipline. Yes, of course their are plenty of exceptions, but its a fine line. That's my sids on it.

[FiveDisgruntledMonkeysWit]

Bah. Off with their heads.

Don't get me wrong; I think templars should give people the chance to weasel out of things, especially minor things. Theft, unruly behavior, slander and blasphemy, probably even some murder. But if they're a magicker? If they're a traitor? If they're a crimelord or known assassin or something? Then kill them.

'But you cut short their enjoyment!' they all cry. Well, duh. We all get our enjoyment 'cut short' someday. Death is inevitable, and doubly so on Zalanthas. And better to die in a well-played public execution scene with another player than to fall down a cliff or die to Scrab #134. Everybody dies. You might as well do it in a log-worthy way.

The alternative- templars bending and twisting to accomodate players' OOC aversion to death- makes for shitty, shitty roleplay. There's one instance in particular that still makes me cringe. This total n00b was mouthing off in the Gaj, screaming about how unfair the templarate was, refusing to bow, etc. The templar present just stood there and took it. Instead of peeling his skin off like any self-respecting civil servant would, the templar decided not to kill the offender because A) PKing is 'bad' and B) he wanted to educate the n00b, I guess.

What was the n00b's punishment? The templar forced a nearby Byn Sergeant to accept him into the Byn! That's right- his punishment was frickin' employment. This was back when the Byn was widely considered The Newbie Training Clan, so the templar was clearly trying to be a good guy, in an OOC sense. But do you want to know what happened? That character marched with me to the Byn compound (I was playing a Trooper at the time), still bitching and moaning about how unfair the templars are. He logged out that night, and I never saw him again. He probably quit, anad good riddance.

All that was accomplished in that scene was that the templar looked like an OOC-motivated pansy, and he had to break character to do it. And, honestly? If he had just tortured and killed the n00b, and if he did it well enough, the n00b might've kept playing. He might've had his first ever 'wow' moment, even if it cost him his first character. If nothing else, all those present would've gotten some sort of enjoyment out of it.

Exile, torture, and so on are perfectly fine, but if an idiot clearly wants to die, please just kill them.

[Arillion]

'But you cut short their enjoyment!' they all cry. Well, duh. We all get our enjoyment 'cut short' someday. Death is inevitable, and doubly so on Zalanthas. And better to die in a well-played public execution scene with another player than to fall down a cliff or die to Scrab #134. Everybody dies. You might as well do it in a log-worthy way.

I understand the sense of your post and I am not disagreeing with it. However, having been killed on numerous occasions and been mauled, tortured, etc I have come to the conclusion that giving the offending player something to work with and continue out the RP with a certain set of repercussions is infinitely more fun to RP. Death is just to permanent (obviously). Too easy in  many respects. You mess up you die.

The other interesting thing is that while everyone has mentioned in passing in one form or another the OOC component to all of this, there clearly is one. The comment that newbie Templars and Nobles want to throw their weight around the first few weeks is a real problem. I got the short end of the stick on one of those. I am not mad but it was counter productive to character development and some longer term stories that could have resulted from a different outcome other than death.

Random IC death at the hands of a brutal templar or any character for that reason should be used sparingly. Why? Because you can't just shit out a character concept, description, and background and get approved soon enough to keep your enjoyment level for the game at a high level. I know when I got killed by that one character, I left the game for a few months because I had to think about my concept, wait, and then try and get into character. I am a bad RPer I guess because it usually takes me a few weeks to plug into my character and really get a feel for him. Since I have another game I play in, it was too easy for me just to go to that other game and RP and have some enjoyment in my limited downtime. I eventually got back into a new character and was into Arm again, but months after the death of that one character.

So go ahead, random kill, kill indiscriminately, do whatever the hell you want. Honestly. Have fun. Chaos rules. Whoohoo!

Just dont be surprised at the OOC consequences of those things. They are real. I am an example of what happened. Another friend of my was the same way. It is hard for me to really get into my characters now because the threat of death is so real that I dont put the emotional investment into them as I perhaps need to. So when RL winds come blowing, guess what falls off the radar screen for me?

Armageddon.

[Synthesis]

Armageddon:  No Country for Crybabies.

After putting together 65+ characters, hey...it's a breeze.

Death...you'll get over it.

[Arillion]

Armageddon:  No Country for Crybabies.

After putting together 65+ characters, hey...it's a breeze.

Death...you'll get over it.

Do you even know what I am saying? How about reading my post instead of THINKING you know what point I am trying to make?

Obviously you have a reading problem...

[Synthesis]

Basically, you said you can't be assed to come up with another character concept, and I expressed my overwhelming lack of sympathy for your plight.

[Arillion]

Basically, you said you can't be assed to come up with another character concept, and I expressed my overwhelming lack of sympathy for your plight.

I will give you a version you can read:

-There is more to RP when you aren't killed (Death=End of that RP for that character)

-It takes me time to get into my character because I try and make each unique (besides the overhead of getting a character made and approved)

Calling me a crybaby...dude, that is just lame.

[FiveDisgruntledMonkeysWit]

Hey, Arillion. I read all your posts all the way through, and I can understand where you're coming from. I hope you don't mind if I use the 'short version' for brevity's sake.

-There is more to RP when you aren't killed (Death=End of that RP for that character)

Ah... you assume there is more RP when you aren't killed. For all you know, if that templar hadn't spared you, your poor liltte character might've been eaten by a scrab the very next day.

That actually happened to me once. My Whiran was captured by some Evil Things. The Evil Things were considering eating him, but they decided to enslave him instead. Great opportunity for roleplay, right? I certainly thought so. But then I went and fell into the Sea of Silt later that week, because I'm a freaking dumbass.

It later occured to me that things would've been a lot more interesting, a lot more satisfying, if the Evil Things had just offed me. And you know what? It probably would've advanced their Evil Plot a whole lot more.

Now, obviously, this was a silly mistake on my part, and I don't mean to imply that your pre-maturely slaughtered characters would've been scrab food the next day. But what I'm saying is that it's false to assume that sparing a person from death leads to 'more' or 'better' RP. While it might be the 'end' of RP for one character, it could seriously enrich the experiences of innumerable others. Some of my favorite RP scenes have been good deaths, good murders, moments of heart-pounding danger, public executions, and the like. You might've gotten the short end of the stick in your particular scene, but the templar who killed you and anyone who witnessed it might very well look back on it fondly.

And, think about it... if everyone was spared all of the time (or even if most people were spared most of the time), most of them would eventually wind up dying to scrabs or insta-death rooms or linkdeath or some random twink mage or assassin running around. Everybody's got to go somehow; it's either that, or storge, and both are pretty anti-climactic, don't you think?

-It takes me time to get into my character because I try and make each unique (besides the overhead of getting a character made and approved)

This sounds like a personal problem to me. I'm afraid I can't really do much beyond sympathize, and maybe offer some character creation tips.

[Barzalene]

Just as an aside the punishments other than death should not equal death. Like cutting of a swordsman's arms or a bard's tongue, or throwing people into the sands with no hope of survival. Better to cut out the swordsman's tongue and the bard's feet.

[Rhyden]

Just as an aside the punishments other than death should not equal death. Like cutting of a swordsman's arms or a bard's tongue, or throwing people into the sands with no hope of survival. Better to cut out the swordsman's tongue and the bard's feet.

I think a fighter stripped of their arm or a bard torn from their tongue are both pretty cool character developments, rather than role play depriving.

I suppose it all depends on how you look at it.

[Barzalene]

Just as an aside the punishments other than death should not equal death. Like cutting of a swordsman's arms or a bard's tongue, or throwing people into the sands with no hope of survival. Better to cut out the swordsman's tongue and the bard's feet.

I think a fighter stripped of their arm or a bard torn from their tongue are both pretty cool character developments, rather than role play depriving.

I suppose it all depends on how you look at it.

It could be. But if you're playing a warrior because you really felt like running around with a big old sword and just playing something without too many complications it can be more developed than you hoped.

Or if you decided to play a bard because you really wanted to sing in taverns, losing your tongue might open up new doors, but deprive you of the opportunity to play the character you apped.

[Rhyden]

It still all depends, Barzalene.

I wouldn't want a nooble templar cutting out a freshly-made PC bard's tongue because they called them a Lord instead of Lady.

However, if said PC was a developed character and pissed said templar off once too many times, yeah, I could see some tongue removal.

At least they didn't kill you, which according to the original poster, happens all too frequently. 

[Barzalene]

It still all depends, Barzalene.

I wouldn't want a nooble templar cutting out a freshly-made PC bard's tongue because they called them a Lord instead of Lady.

However, if said PC was a developed character and pissed said templar off once too many times, yeah, I could see some tongue removal.

At least they didn't kill you, which according to the original poster, happens all too frequently. 

I was envisioning the first scenario, not the second. If your long lived pc is going out of their way to piss off the powerful, I say take what lumps you get and enjoy them.

[mansa]

'But you cut short their enjoyment!' they all cry. Well, duh. We all get our enjoyment 'cut short' someday. Death is inevitable, and doubly so on Zalanthas. And better to die in a well-played public execution scene with another player than to fall down a cliff or die to Scrab #134. Everybody dies. You might as well do it in a log-worthy way.

I understand the sense of your post and I am not disagreeing with it. However, having been killed on numerous occasions and been mauled, tortured, etc I have come to the conclusion that giving the offending player something to work with and continue out the RP with a certain set of repercussions is infinitely more fun to RP. Death is just to permanent (obviously). Too easy in  many respects. You mess up you die.

The other interesting thing is that while everyone has mentioned in passing in one form or another the OOC component to all of this, there clearly is one. The comment that newbie Templars and Nobles want to throw their weight around the first few weeks is a real problem. I got the short end of the stick on one of those. I am not mad but it was counter productive to character development and some longer term stories that could have resulted from a different outcome other than death.

Random IC death at the hands of a brutal templar or any character for that reason should be used sparingly. Why? Because you can't just shit out a character concept, description, and background and get approved soon enough to keep your enjoyment level for the game at a high level. I know when I got killed by that one character, I left the game for a few months because I had to think about my concept, wait, and then try and get into character. I am a bad RPer I guess because it usually takes me a few weeks to plug into my character and really get a feel for him. Since I have another game I play in, it was too easy for me just to go to that other game and RP and have some enjoyment in my limited downtime. I eventually got back into a new character and was into Arm again, but months after the death of that one character.

So go ahead, random kill, kill indiscriminately, do whatever the hell you want. Honestly. Have fun. Chaos rules. Whoohoo!

Just dont be surprised at the OOC consequences of those things. They are real. I am an example of what happened. Another friend of my was the same way. It is hard for me to really get into my characters now because the threat of death is so real that I dont put the emotional investment into them as I perhaps need to. So when RL winds come blowing, guess what falls off the radar screen for me?

Armageddon.

I totally agree.

[mansa]

Hey, Arillion. I read all your posts all the way through, and I can understand where you're coming from. I hope you don't mind if I use the 'short version' for brevity's sake.

-There is more to RP when you aren't killed (Death=End of that RP for that character)

Ah... you assume there is more RP when you aren't killed. For all you know, if that templar hadn't spared you, your poor liltte character might've been eaten by a scrab the very next day.

That actually happened to me once. My Whiran was captured by some Evil Things. The Evil Things were considering eating him, but they decided to enslave him instead. Great opportunity for roleplay, right? I certainly thought so. But then I went and fell into the Sea of Silt later that week, because I'm a freaking dumbass.

It later occured to me that things would've been a lot more interesting, a lot more satisfying, if the Evil Things had just offed me. And you know what? It probably would've advanced their Evil Plot a whole lot more.

Now, obviously, this was a silly mistake on my part, and I don't mean to imply that your pre-maturely slaughtered characters would've been scrab food the next day. But what I'm saying is that it's false to assume that sparing a person from death leads to 'more' or 'better' RP. While it might be the 'end' of RP for one character, it could seriously enrich the experiences of innumerable others. Some of my favorite RP scenes have been good deaths, good murders, moments of heart-pounding danger, public executions, and the like. You might've gotten the short end of the stick in your particular scene, but the templar who killed you and anyone who witnessed it might very well look back on it fondly.

And, think about it... if everyone was spared all of the time (or even if most people were spared most of the time), most of them would eventually wind up dying to scrabs or insta-death rooms or linkdeath or some random twink mage or assassin running around. Everybody's got to go somehow; it's either that, or storge, and both are pretty anti-climactic, don't you think?

-It takes me time to get into my character because I try and make each unique (besides the overhead of getting a character made and approved)

This sounds like a personal problem to me. I'm afraid I can't really do much beyond sympathize, and maybe offer some character creation tips.

FDM, You feel that it would have been better if the evil thing killed you on the spot.  I definitely disagree. 

It was a personal decision to kill yourself in the silt sea.  Nobody put you there.  You did it yourself.

When you kill others, you are removing them from playing the game.  When you kill yourself due to an NPC, you are removing yourself from the game.


Other players don't make that decision when you kill them.  You are making it for them.  I think you're point is off.  Sorry.

[BuNutzCola]

As to losing limbs, hey you don't die, regardless what kind of character you are. And if as a player keeping into the role of a gimped warrior doesn't suit you, eh, store or suicide.

Seen a few chars with missing limps/appendages/eyes/tongues that have lived quite a while with such disabilities, and still manage to have fun. (at least from what I can see)

[Akaramu]

Just as an aside the punishments other than death should not equal death. Like cutting of a swordsman's arms or a bard's tongue, or throwing people into the sands with no hope of survival. Better to cut out the swordsman's tongue and the bard's feet.

I don't know, cutting off any PC's feet pretty much equals death or storage in my book. A tongue-less bard could still play instruments and use the way, but a character without feet would be locked into solo roleplay unless they have some very solid, very available support from others.

[Qzzrbl]

Just as an aside the punishments other than death should not equal death. Like cutting of a swordsman's arms or a bard's tongue, or throwing people into the sands with no hope of survival. Better to cut out the swordsman's tongue and the bard's feet.

I don't know, cutting off any PC's feet pretty much equals death or storage in my book. A tongue-less bard could still play instruments and use the way, but a character without feet would be locked into solo roleplay unless they have some very solid, very available support from others.

Find a wagonmaker. Commission him to make a wheelchair. Have a grand old time. 

[Versu]

Welcome to Armageddon!

*smacking keyboard*



edit: Yer mom!

[Melody]

Just as an aside the punishments other than death should not equal death. Like cutting of a swordsman's arms or a bard's tongue, or throwing people into the sands with no hope of survival. Better to cut out the swordsman's tongue and the bard's feet.

I don't know, cutting off any PC's feet pretty much equals death or storage in my book. A tongue-less bard could still play instruments and use the way, but a character without feet would be locked into solo roleplay unless they have some very solid, very available support from others.

Find a wagonmaker. Commission him to make a wheelchair. Have a grand old time. 

Have a grand old time waiting for a wagonmaker for 3-5 months irl.

[Malken]

Just as an aside the punishments other than death should not equal death. Like cutting of a swordsman's arms or a bard's tongue, or throwing people into the sands with no hope of survival. Better to cut out the swordsman's tongue and the bard's feet.

I don't know, cutting off any PC's feet pretty much equals death or storage in my book. A tongue-less bard could still play instruments and use the way, but a character without feet would be locked into solo roleplay unless they have some very solid, very available support from others.

Find a wagonmaker. Commission him to make a wheelchair. Have a grand old time. 

Have a grand old time waiting for a wagonmaker for 3-5 months irl.

Not since the new flavor of the month class on Armageddon is merchant 

I see merchants popping in everywhere!

Oh, that and the tribal accent.

[Riev]

Not since the new flavor of the month class on Armageddon is merchant 

I'm missing a FOTM? Damnit. I like my character though.

[Malken]

Not since the new flavor of the month class on Armageddon is merchant 

I'm missing a FOTM? Damnit. I like my character though.

Yah, man, didn't you hear? They totally nerfed rangers and assassins with that stun thing (We all know that the Staff only plays magickers) and boosted the merchant class with some shortcut command.

And I hear that the tribal accent gives you +5 to your crafting skills.

[mansa]

Why are you guys shitting up a good thread?

Malken, Riev, Melody, Versu?  I'm looking in your direction.

[Riev]

Oop. Good point.


I've been lucky enough, so far, to avoid a confrontation with leaders and needing to resort to punishments, but the ones I've -seen- or -heard of- never seemed to go towards killing someone. Had the ones I'd seen end up in killing, it would have been too much. I agree that if you are a templar, and someone is stupid enough to blatantly break a law in front of you and get caught... -not- bribing them is a sure way to end up killed. I wouldn't expect any RP from a templar that I didn't at least -try- to beg or plead, because it is just as much up to the player, in these situations, to inform that they would LIKE to RP, if possible.

Rarely have I seen someone actually say, OOC, that they would like to turn no save on, if it would help the torture or the RP. I guess, perhaps, I havn't seen enough?