Capital Punishment Overused

[Sholdyn]

I have a real problem with the way capital punishment is being tossed around lately. Recent IG events have prompted me to speak out.

I believe that it is absolutely unnecessary to kill another PC just because they are acting out. In the vast majority of situations, I argue that there are always better and more interesting ways to deal with a problem than insta-death.

It seems to be that every time a character tries to react to a situation in an interesting manner, they are chopped down by the Templarate without a blink. Instead, why not arrest them? Torture them, maybe, or a public flogging to send a message? Or even just throw them in the arena and tell the citizens that this is what happens when you act out. Simply cutting a person down for doing something interesting will cause everyone to be boring all the time for fear of loosing their character in a quick and ridiculous manner.

I will always remember a character who was walking around Nak... lets just say, he was breaking the law. He was caught by a Templar but instead of just killing my character, the Templar scooped out one of his eyes. It was a crazy RP scene and I loved it. It was a fitting punishment for my character, but a rewarding experience for me as a player. I've never seen that kind of thing again. I question why this is.

I grant that may be simply missing the interesting ways people deal with these situations and only noticing the insta-death situations, but somehow I think that it is as big a problem as I am making it out to be. I'm not saying that insta-death is wrong. I'm saying that it's not interesting and it doesn't invoke interesting play whereas I am sure that we as a community -could- be doing something more interesting and handling this situations better.

What is everyone else's take on this? Do you think that capitial punishment is overused, or do you think it's just way the world is and is in fact, how it should be?

[staggerlee]

I think players in leadership roles agree with you about finding more interesting things to do than straight up kill people.
Every player I've seen cut down without warning in game has been at the hands of npc guards, players can't really be blamed when the crim code is tripped.  I have however seen nobles and militia show enormous amounts of restraint before finally resorting to punishment.

Players need to keep in mind that when caught by authority there are a lot of things you can do to ensure that you walk out alive or get some rp, including groveling, bribes, and so forth.

A lot of the time I don't think that people really consider situations from the perspective of authority figures.   There are a lot of things you can do to put their backs to the wall and force their hand, and it happens a lot.  In fact I'd go so far as to say it's hard to get killed inside Allanak without forcing the hand of an authority figure.

I agree entirely that avoiding capital punishment is ideal and I think you'll find that almost everyone in authority roles does too.

People playing criminals: Learn to act afraid, learn to grovel, bow, apologize and bribe.  It works.  Sneering, spitting and refusing to bow are all really good ways to get yourself in trouble.

[Yam]

You do not know what is going on behind the scenes.

[Barzalene]

And turn on no save. Though, if you're not commiting a crime you might not think of it.

I'm of two minds on this. I like a little brutal. I don't like losing pc's before I've really started them. It all works out though. I guess.

[brytta.leofa]

Resisting a militia subdue attempt--NPC or PC--is pretty much signing yourself up for Death By Cop.  NPCs will death-swarm you; PCs seem to have a little more leeway, but the force continuum in Allanak is rather...steep.

[Sholdyn]

Staggerlee, I think your post was actually a lot more helpful than mine. Thank you for posting it.

[mansa]

I totally agree that there should be more coded options for leader pcs.  Right now, all they can do is kill you.

I wish you had the ability to chop off limbs.

I wish you had the ability to gouge out eyes.

I wish you had the ability to chop off fingers.

I wish you had the ability to permanently reduce people's health or endurance by injuries.

Currently, the only thing I can do to your character is kill you.

[staggerlee]

Right now, all they can do is kill you.

That simply isn't true.

I wish you had the ability to chop off limbs.

I wish you had the ability to gouge out eyes.

I wish you had the ability to chop off fingers.

This is all supported by the code.  The torture victim has to go get the scar on their own, but that isn't really an issue imho.  I suppose they could run around pretending they still have two eyes, but on the rare occasion that happened the staff can probably take care of it if they're so inclined. 

[Synthesis]

I don't really understand the problem.

You get caught, you die.  I mean...that's what makes the life of crime such a rush.

You screw up, even once, and there's an extremely high probability that you're going to see the mantis head.  I wouldn't have it any other way.

[Shiroi Tsuki]

The only times as an authority figure that I have killed people has been when they have pretty much just forced it upon themselves.  I always, always prefer to torture, maim, humiliate, or do something otherwise nasty, but that does not cause the other player to lose a possibly beloved character.

However, there is a limit to how far you can allow yourself to be pushed, while playing an authority figure.  I am not going to step out of my character just to accommodate someone who is refusing to see the way things are going.  For instance, I once remember torturing someone who just kept going about it entirely unrealistically.  No begging, no pleading, no offers of bribes, nothing.  Torture torture torture... it was even -suggested- they might want to beg/plead/bribe, and ended up with some dead guy that simply refused to go with the flow of the scene.  In other instances, I have offered people second chances, only to have them keep doing the same dumb crap that got them in trouble in the first place... and then some other times, Powerz!From!Above say 'That guy has just pissed off Chosen Lord Fancypants too much, kill him,' and the player of Militia Jimbo just has to say 'Alright,' and cut someone's throat.

I think a lot of other players are like me in that I don't like killing players from an authority position.  I don't -want- to kill players from an authority position (because to me, that indicates something else has broken down).  But.  And this is a big but.  I don't expect you to step out of character so that you don't get killed, so please do not expect me to step out of character so that I don't have to kill you.

[jstorrie]

Players with access to incriminate can do some decent things via exile, too–otherwise known as 'execution by sandstorm code' or 'go play in Luir's, you jerk.'

Throwing someone out the gates and telling them never to come back is definitely a sweet and underused option. If they don't ever come back, well, problem solved from the templar's perspective, right?

[mansa]

Right now, all they can do is kill you.

That simply isn't true.

I wish you had the ability to chop off limbs.

I wish you had the ability to gouge out eyes.

I wish you had the ability to chop off fingers.

This is all supported by the code.  The torture victim has to go get the scar on their own, but that isn't really an issue imho.  I suppose they could run around pretending they still have two eyes, but on the rare occasion that happened the staff can probably take care of it if they're so inclined. 

In my experience, I've never seen it.  I don't know how to type the commands to do so.  There is nothing in the documents about coded mutilation.   Nothing in the help files.  I guess, because I've never played a templar.

But I sure wish I could 'harm' someone without having to go 'mercy on';kill <target>;emote cuts off your leg; ooc your leg is cut off, now wish up.

[Synthesis]

I don't really feel any compunction not to kill people who deserve it.

Hell, once I killed/had killed 3 PCs in a single day, and you know what?  They all did something to deserve it.  Routinely giving second chances doesn't make the game more interesting or develop plotlines, or any of that crap:  it makes you a sucker who deserves to get rolled when that second chance comes back around to bite you in the ass.  The only thing I would stop at short of death for someone who -deserves- to die would be such a horrific mutilation that the character would end up being stored, anyway.

This is Armageddon, not happy-bunny-huggle land.

Every time a templar or noble comes in the room, your asshole should pucker up a little.  Nobody should expect to get off the hook with a little slap on the wrist just because they can emote well and are "important" to some nebulous, vaguely-defined plot.  If you screw up, you pay for it with your life.  It's that simple.  If you don't like your odds, then don't play that kind of character.  There are plenty of things you can do that will keep you comfortable, safe, worry-free, and far from the cruel edge of justice (whoever happens to be wielding it).

[The7DeadlyVenomz]

Synthesis is actually just about as right as you can get.

The reason he is right is because nobody plays characters who run in fear of other PCs for the rest of their life because they are scared. Sooner or later, they are going to get revenge. IRL, this is not the case, because mothafuckaz get scared and do not want to get revenge because they are scared of what will happen if they fail the revenge. In due time, in Armageddon, you will be able to get revenge through skill sets of influence. In real life, you generally have no way to get that revenge.

Therefore, in Armageddon, foes die, while IRL, foes get free passes and homies cross the str.

[Rhyden]

I love the death.

It's a brutal world. One mistake can get you killed because you're facing the perpetual dangers of Zalanthas every day. Mistakes mean death so you're only going to survive in this world is if you're good. If you can't beat them, join them. And on top of that, there's a multitude of other IC plots that could mean sudden or certain death for any one of our characters. I think the sooner you accept the fact that your character is going to die eventually from one of the several dangers of Zalanthas, the sooner you'll make a character who knows how to battle death itself.

[Pale Horse]

Directing this to Rhyden's last statement: The person I truly fear, IG and IRL, is the one that has nothing to fear from death.

Having said this, I will add my own voice to those that would prefer to see something else besides "capitol punishment" being the norm for Commoner to Templar/Noble interactions.  This is a brutal world, sure, and swift death is totally in line with the way the world works, but I, personally, can't help but remember that it's also a game, and that by killing off this other character, I'm cutting short someone else's entertainment.  While of course you can write up another character concept within the hour of your last death (guilty of this when I first started out, and guilty of it when I've got a pre-made concept already made up), why not have the fun of keeping your character alive after having survived a potentially life changing scene or event?  Besides, as has been pointed out in the past, having enemies IG is one of the greatest things to RP.  Leaving a string of people behind you who have suffered at your hands sounds like a great way to make a few, to me.

Having said that, I will also point out that a death scene, if done right, can be one of the more enjoyable things about the game.  I had a favored character that was tortured rather brutally by Nilazi and what I assume was a vampire (couldn't see any of them), in an interrogation scene that ended with the character becoming a meal.  Was I upset over loosing the character?  Yes, I was, but I'd seen it coming and so felt just the regret of having lost the string of events that told the story of my character.  The ones who played out the scene did it well, asked if descriptive words could be used and if not, then glossing over everything was just fine, and once permission was obtained, let us know that if it got to far, they'd be the first ones to stop it.  It was responsible, it was well handled, it was one of the best times I've had while playing this game.

All and all, I guess I'm saying that more RP and trust in the "other guy" to make the situation, if not actively enjoyable, at least one that you'll eventually remember as something "cool" that happened to your character, and about which you can brag about on the GDB a year later.

[Rhyden]

Directing this to Rhyden's last statement: The person I truly fear, IG and IRL, is the one that has nothing to fear from death.

I'm not saying that at all but I definitely agree with you.

[brytta.leofa]

When I first started playing, I was scared spitless of templars; as far as I knew, they would gladly kill my character for the most trivial offense.

I no longer fear templars so much. Though I suspect that means I've reached the Second Level of Naïveté, rather than Enlightenment.

[Sarah]

This is Armageddon, not happy-bunny-huggle land.

Every time a templar or noble comes in the room, your asshole should pucker up a little.

Agreed.  If you think realistically, there are worse things than death. Things that will make other commoners' skin crawl in fear when they hear of it.  And if that punishment ends in a death, that's okay too 'cause the rp involved would have been interesting.

[Akaramu]

The reason he is right is because nobody plays characters who run in fear of other PCs for the rest of their life because they are scared.

I tried to play such PC's, but failed because they got killed. I find it hard to believe I am supposedly the only one who doesn't mind playing some characters who just want to survive, and are not interested in twinking themselves up to the point where they might get lethal revenge. Surely there must be others out there. 

As has been said before, in some situations, especially very public situations that involve many PCs and are linked to political workings, leaders often get backed to the wall to the point where they really have no realistic option other than killing. Especially when higher-ups are breathing down their neck, or they have to consider the 'greater good' for their city, their clan, or the ones most important to them.

[Tarx]

My personal rules:

Death should be the last possible option for dealing with someone.*

*Unless they meet one of the many criteria for death as the first possible option when dealing with someone.

I really think it can't be a blanket statement for all leader/templar/noble PCs to use capital punishment less or more than they use it already.
Some of these have a lot of freedom to choose on a case by case basis to use capital punishment in response to an action.  Some don't have that freedom.

[Mood]

I don't really feel any compunction not to kill people who deserve it.

Hell, once I killed/had killed 3 PCs in a single day, and you know what?  They all did something to deserve it.  Routinely giving second chances doesn't make the game more interesting or develop plotlines, or any of that crap:  it makes you a sucker who deserves to get rolled when that second chance comes back around to bite you in the ass.  The only thing I would stop at short of death for someone who -deserves- to die would be such a horrific mutilation that the character would end up being stored, anyway.

This is Armageddon, not happy-bunny-huggle land.

Every time a templar or noble comes in the room, your asshole should pucker up a little.  Nobody should expect to get off the hook with a little slap on the wrist just because they can emote well and are "important" to some nebulous, vaguely-defined plot.  If you screw up, you pay for it with your life.  It's that simple.  If you don't like your odds, then don't play that kind of character.  There are plenty of things you can do that will keep you comfortable, safe, worry-free, and far from the cruel edge of justice (whoever happens to be wielding it).

Synthesis took the words right out of my mouth.

[Marauder Moe]

I tend to go back and forth on this issue in my own head.

I agree that losing a character generally sucks, and it sucks even more when it's not through your own fault.

On the other hand, sudden, unexpected, and undeserved PvP deaths really do lend a lot of atmosphere to the game (for the survivors).  I don't think I believe it's necessarily that wrong (OOCly) for someone in a position of power to kill an innocent PC bystander as a demonstration.  Sure it sucks for that one poor player, but the rest of us are now terrified of that one powerful PC, and thus the game is more exciting.

Of course, on the other other hand... such demonstrations could be equally effective if said innocent PC was simply tortured and maimed instead and allowed to be a living monument of power and cruelty.

On the other other other hand... that can be pretty dangerous because, as has been mentioned, the chance of that wronged PC spending all his effort acquiring his own power and seeking revenge isn't insignificant.

It's a tricky issue.

However, for the moment I don't see undeserved PC death at the hands of those in power as a rampant problem.  I'd say there's about the right amount of it going on in the parts of the game I can view.

[DANCE COMMANDER]

This is Armageddon, not happy-bunny-huggle land.

Every time a templar or noble comes in the room, your asshole should pucker up a little.

I came in here to say this. Much thanks to Synthesis to saving me the effort.

[Gimfalisette]

A lot of the time I don't think that people really consider situations from the perspective of authority figures.   There are a lot of things you can do to put their backs to the wall and force their hand, and it happens a lot.  In fact I'd go so far as to say it's hard to get killed inside Allanak without forcing the hand of an authority figure.

I agree entirely that avoiding capital punishment is ideal and I think you'll find that almost everyone in authority roles does too.

Emphasis mine. Oh yes indeedy it does. And otherwise also completely agreed.

You do not know what is going on behind the scenes.

Absolutely true. Unless you are playing the authority figure, it's 100% likely you do not have the complete story as to what's happened, what solutions the authority figure has already tried, and what the remaining available options are.

However, there is a limit to how far you can allow yourself to be pushed, while playing an authority figure.

Playing an authority figure is very difficult, in the sense of balancing the OOC responsibilities to keep the flavor of the world correct (harsh, brutal, authority is final), and yet maintain playability of an area for the playerbase by not being overly harsh/brutal. It's a constant act of balancing on the razor's edge, and most of those who end up dead have had the opportunity to not end up dead.

There are characters alive in game right now who owe their continued existence to the fact that an authority figure did not choose to employ capital punishment when s/he could have.

And characters continue to die to authority figures as well.

I think the current level is fine and good.