Racism vs. half-elves and elves

[Qzzrbl]

Why does everyone have to defend half-elves and elves?

That makes rping racism so hard in this game....

[title edited by Vanth to be clearer what the thread is about]

[Seeker]

Yeah... I had a hard time with that, too.  The last three times in a row that I dis'ed some sleazy Breed in public I about got gang-raped by his human friends.  Or friends of his friends who were around.  Or employers, employees of his friends who once came rushing up drawing weapons because I insulted someone's best buddy--- the stinking half-elf.


Seeker

[Qzzrbl]

Yeah... I had a hard time with that, too.  The last three times in a row that I dis'ed some sleazy Breed in public I about got gang-raped by his human friends.  Or friends of his friends who were around.  Or employers, employees of his friends who once came rushing up drawing weapons because I insulted someone's best buddy--- the stinking half-elf.


Seeker

Yeah, that's exactly what just happened to me.

People.

Why, why! WHY?!? Do you do this?!

[jstorrie]

Because that guy over there is my whipping-breed. Y'all can find your own.

[Tisiphone]

Because that guy over there is my whipping-breed. Y'all can find your own.

Best. Answer. Ever.

Also, new character idea.

[Synthesis]

Because, to reference another of my recent posts...

the benefit of hating on breeds and longnecks is minimal (personal satisfaction in following the spirit of the game) and the detriment of hating them could be substantial (now you have someone who is probably some sort of criminal anyway out to get you).  Ergo, it makes much more sense to try to be the friendly exception, so you can avoid the detriment, and have a buddy who can possibly get you illegal stuff.

But, you know...that's just me being cynical.

[Seeker]

Because that guy over there is my whipping-breed. Y'all can find your own.

I could totally live with that.  And grin.


Seeker

[Malken]

Don't be dissin' that elf, now, boy, he probably has more friends than you do on AIM.   

[Fathi]

To be fair, the tone of your racism roleplay might have something to do with it.

If you're at a table with a breed and his employers/coworkers and you mess with him for being a breed, that's one thing. If you overtly threaten bodily harm, it could also be seen as a threat to the organisation as a whole.

They might not be defending the breed, per se, but leader PCs are almost always under at least a little bit of pressure to not make it look like they let their minions get kicked around.

[Kalden]

]Don't be dissin' that elf, now, boy, he probably has more friends than you do on AIM.

I'm usually not one to defend elves IG, but you should keep in mind that a substantial group of criminals generally has the back of that "longneck". Virtually, most elves have tribes. That doesn't mean human PCs should get involved. But elves also have ways of making friends; it's part of being devious.

[Qzzrbl]

To be fair, the tone of your racism roleplay might have something to do with it.

If you're at a table with a breed and his employers/coworkers and you mess with him for being a breed, that's one thing. If you overtly threaten bodily harm, it could also be seen as a threat to the organisation as a whole.

They might not be defending the breed, per se, but leader PCs are almost always under at least a little bit of pressure to not make it look like they let their minions get kicked around.

Oh, no. No threats were made. Only declining a job on the grounds that one would have to work along side a breed. No previous employment neither.

"Hey, you wanna work for us?"

"You work with elves and breeds?"

"Yes."

"Then no."

"Why, because we work with breeds and elves?"

"Exactly."

"Grawr! I wanna fight you!"

That's pretty much how it went down.

[staggerlee]

So tell all your friends and drag their name through the mud.  Bad enough that they hire  them without being proud of it.
Then if you're still feeling fiesty, go knife a breed whore in an alley and leave his body in front of the "breed lover's" establishment.

I fail to see the problem.   

[Kalden]

Really, these things should be settled IC. Hire a templar, or an assassin.

I guess that would be "overkill"... *sighs*

[Lizzie]

I think it would also depend on the job. I mean, if there's an established clan, with a commonly known history of hiring elves and breeds, then the guy applying for the job shouldn't even be asking that question. In fact, he shouldn't be asking for a job with that clan in the first place, because obviously in his mind, he is "too good" for that clan. Of course that would be entirely wrong, until he can prove otherwise, because they wouldn't be established clans with commonly known histories of anything if they weren't already superior than him.

Once again though, that's one of those things the *players* should know about certain IC things, that aren't necessarily documented. It makes them look foolish, or "roleplaying wrong" when they find out IC something their character would have known for decades before his player logged him in for the first time after getting approval to play it.

The thing about this though, is it's a slippery slope. If this is one of the Greater Merchant Houses, then it's probably a job that most commoner hunter/crafter types would not turn down. They would be glad to have the support of the GMH, glad to have a group at their backs, a regular salary, food, water, a bunk to sleep on. Even an elf-hater could figure out a way to put aside his hatred, or justify a job like that. Maybe instead of asking "do you hire elves and breeds" ask instead, "Would I be required to work beside elves and breeds, or protect them?" Because hey - just because GMH#1 hires a breed doesn't mean you will ever be ordered to deal with that breed. They might separate you and put you in a group of all-humans. Or all-dwarves. Or whatever else. Maybe they've noticed a lot of other humans in their clan grumbling about having to work with breeds and elves, and create a new unit just for that purpose.

If it's the Tzai Byn, they're mercenaries. A merc will work for whoever pays him. If he's capable of doing the job, and there's money in it for him, he won't care who he's doing it for, or with, or even against.  If your character wasn't willing to do that, he shouldn't have applied for the job.

If it's an non-established clan, never mind

[Folker]

If it's an non-established clan, never mind

Folker groans, slapping the side of his face with his palm.

Yeaaaaaah.


Thankfully, in my experience Templars tend to always prefer full humans, no matter how filthy, to breeds. And if the group tends to defend breeds a lot, usually they'll run in some sort of problem. Things get complicated if the group's actully useful and without HQ. But complicated isnt impossible.

[Qzzrbl]

So tell all your friends and drag their name through the mud.  Bad enough that they hire  them without being proud of it.
Then if you're still feeling fiesty, go knife a breed whore in an alley and leave his body in front of the "breed lover's" establishment.

I fail to see the problem.   

2 hour character.  So not really many friends, or chance of winning a fight against anyone. Wouldn'tve really been in his character to fight them anyhow.

And the guy just kinda lumbered into the tavern and made an all-call for anyone was looking for work, not part of any real cocded-clan to my knowledge.

And I didn't really ask, "Do you work with elves and breeds." That really wasn't actual dialog.... It was a lot longer than that and I didn't feel like typing it up.

o-O

Bleh I dunno.... I just felt like ranting about it.

I get tired of seeing no IG racism, just kinda seems like I'm the only one who bothers with it anymore.

[Lizzie]

Well don't forget also, that hunting groups have leaders who are usually looking only for the following:

Someone who already knows how to use a weapon, ride a mount (or run without needing one), and pick out appropriate armor for himself (meaning, usually not a brand-spanking new newbie player who they'd have to spend time teaching about syntax and commonly known geography).

Someone who is useful, but expendable (meaning, appropriate coded and non-coded skills for the job, but no one with -too- much usefulness, because then they're a threat to the leader's position. Someone no one would miss too much if they got killed off.)

A city-bound sneaky group would likely -want- the more unscrupulous types - breeds and elves, because they would fit in better with some of the unscrupulous types a sneaky city group would want to infiltrate. On the other hand, a city-bound sneaky group wouldn't be announcing an "open call" on potential hirelings, so I'm guessing it wasn't that

In either case, it spells breeds and elves. Humans are valued higher than breeds, even to elves. And generally speaking (with exceptions) the overall populace values humans above elves. So the elf and the breed would be more expendable, to a group leader. Of course he's going to hire them, they can act as shields, or bait, be set the riskier tasks, because if they get killed, no biggie.

[Marauder Moe]

Well I wasn't privy to the scene, nor do I want more detail (you really shouldn't be talking about something that happened recently on the boards at all, you should email the staff if you have serious concerns)...

...but I think people often fail to make a distinction between doing business with an undesirable person (elf, half-elf, magicker, foreigner) and being social buddies.  Perhaps (and again, I wasn't there so this is pure conjecture) they were not sticking up for their point-eared friends but instead were just making fun of you for turning down a good opportunity just because you might have to stand next to a sharp sometimes.  These types of people are around you all the time, though.  They pour you drinks, sell you stuff in the bazaar, bring in raw materials that become your equipment, and so on.  Just because they're useful doesn't mean you like them, or they're your friends, or equals in any way.

I don't think people should really have any qualms with being seen doing business with an elf (though undoubtedly they would be careful not to get ripped off).  Likewise, there shouldn't be much of a problem working for an organization that makes use of them either.  GMH employees, as has been said, command a lot of respect even though they'll take all species.


Though I should also say that human employees of mixed-race or otherwise unusually tolerant clans should probably think twice before sticking up for a sub-human employee.  It's not an automatic slight against the house if someone makes fun of a half-elf hunter employee.  As long as things aren't turning violent (threatening useful assets) and people aren't insulting the house directly, there isn't much reason to get involved.  Heck, maybe you (as a coworker or superior) should scold the half-elf for getting the decent folk all riled up.

[Qzzrbl]

(you really shouldn't be talking about something that happened recently on the boards at all, you should email the staff if you have serious concerns)...

Eh... You're right.

[Akaramu]

In some cities, and within those cities in some bars, halfbreeds, elves and other scum are extremely common to be seen. Humans who frequent there are most likely aware of this and will, depending on their social status, react accordingly. The lonesome human dude with no clan or friends behind him might weight his reasons for frequenting such a place, and decide to for the most part just ignore the scum there as long as they leave him alone. Who knows, the scum might be there in groups, and lonesome human dude possibly heard wild stories about crime and murder in that place.

Now the human in a large clan who goes there with a bunch of buddies could be an entirely different case. Maybe they even want to start a bar-fight with some halfbreed no one cares about, they outnumber him and his friend who might be lurking nearby. If things get out of hand and a templar shows up, the group of buddies in their large clan can be decently sure that the templar will care more about them than the stinking halfbreed, no matter who started the fight.

The single human who is of a high social rank and also happens to be a veteran warrior might feel more confident in publicly picking on anyone who is not human, and appears to have no backup. Maybe even if they have backup.

The average Joe human might act friendly towards one or two specific elves / halfbreeds if they have saved his life, or otherwise greatly helped him in the past, while still hating the rest of the stinking bunch.

Overall, I believe that in many places elves and halfbreeds are so commonly seen that humans wouldn't pick on them all the time, or show open hatred, but rather just not give a toss until they are specifically bothered by one of those lowly creatures.

[Qzzrbl]

Right. But is it okay for a human to start a fight with another human because human A openly dislikes halfbreeds? 

[Akaramu]

Right. But is it okay for a human to start a fight with another human because human A openly dislikes halfbreeds? 

We don't know the exact circumstances of that and are not supposed to know, email the staff if you haven't already 

That will probably be most helpful for you.

[Dalmeth]

Because, to reference another of my recent posts...

the benefit of hating on breeds and longnecks is minimal (personal satisfaction in following the spirit of the game) and the detriment of hating them could be substantial (now you have someone who is probably some sort of criminal anyway out to get you).  Ergo, it makes much more sense to try to be the friendly exception, so you can avoid the detriment, and have a buddy who can possibly get you illegal stuff.

But, you know...that's just me being cynical.

The economics of cost versus benefit in social interactions is a hard subject to pin down.  The primary problem in this game is that humans and elves are supposed to have a long history of conflict, which most players can't get a good grip on unless they've played a fair amount of time.  Humans don't hate elves because they are an inferior race, that's just a concept invented to justify their hatred.  The hatred comes from the fact that they just can't trust elves on account of competing interests.  Half-elves aren't trusted by either parent race in large part because neither can be quite sure where their loyalties are.

Humans and elves should continually backstab each other because sooner or later it comes down to a choice between siding with a human or siding with an elf.  Most will typically side with their own race because it's simply more likely they have similar goals.

Now, if more players could see this situation from this point of view, then there might be a more even distribution of racist-type behaviors.  The exceptions, then, might be more profound in their development.

[Southie]

Right. But is it okay for a human to start a fight with another human because human A openly dislikes halfbreeds? 

Yes. And/or, no.

[Gimfalisette]

It's "OK" to start a fight about anything you want. The outcome of the fight may not necessarily be favorable to your character. But that is "OK" too.

I think it's important not to assume that because a human character won't let you beat up / insult / otherwise abuse a half-elf character...then they must be a documentation-ignoring jerkwad. There is probably more going on than you see or know.