Preserving the Wonder and Mystery

[staggerlee]

I agree with the majority of what you wrote Tis, I was just waiting for you to connect it with you very first sentence

Hey guys. That wonder and mystery sure takes a hit when you idle around.

and never saw the connection. Maybe I missed it, but it didn't seem like being idle when you're logged in was ever touched on again.

That sentence was just to move us off of what we were talking about back to the main thrust of the thread.

For me it does though... the world feels fake, and immersion feels broken when pcs turn into objects.

Maybe Staggerlee means going AFK for a prolonged period of time is distasteful?

However... this is a fair point. If I never know you're idling, then it's not so much an issue.  I'm not entirely satisfied with the assumption inherent in it though, as there are more than a few ways to observe without being observed.  If we're supposed to shut off when we're not observed, why is there a think command?  Or hemote? Or feel?

I'm loathe to disagree with 7DV, he's a pretty kick ass player and well accustomed to playing clan leaders... being online even when you're not really playing shows a lot of responsibility.  Good on you, I think that even idling like that would kill immersion for me, but some obviously consider it to be a  necessary evil.

On the topic of knowledge:  I learned about poisons ic, when they were explained to me by a clan leader. At the time I was delighted, and as it had never occured to me to type 'help poison' I hadn't realized everything I was learning was documented. I felt like my rp had been enormously productive and that I'd walked away with a secret.  It was all around satisfying and provided rp opportunities.  Part of the trick I suspect is remembering to keep that ic and ooc knowledge separate, even though I now know about poison, asking future clan leaders on future characters to explain it to me could turn into an rp opportunity, and while it may never be as exciting again, separating that knowledge does help keep the world alive.

And that is why I'm upset that I learned that @#&(*&(*&@ existed as a race, that #(*))*()(* can $(*)*())(*)(* and any number of other little things I picked up on the gdb.

[fourTwenty]

OOC cliques exist in Arm. OOC communications happen and the players that do it don't care. OOC bullshit DOES affect IG actions.

This is the kinda shit that drove me away from the last RPI I enjoyed and I'm rapidly becoming disenchanted with this one.

I really like the reason this thread was started, but I mean there are even people defending their OOC communication habits. Last I checked you weren't even really suppose to know who the player behind the PC is(or at least be mature enough to ignore it).

Far from even preserving wonder and mystery I would like to see the sanctity of the game preserved.

From what I've gleaned this has been a problem before long in the past. (Before my time)

I already know some GREAT players, actual RP'ers, not just people who give it lip service, that have left due to OOC bullshit. This sucks.

I can only speak for myself but I'm starting to get that sick feeling that "OOC Bull"(for lack of a better term) is on the upturn.

I kept this post intentionally short and concise because I don't want it to be a rant. I feel these points are important.

I am sad.

[The7DeadlyVenomz]

I am sad.

I'm sad too, mainly because people severely over-estimate the number of cliques. I'd never argue about OOC communication being an issue, but the OOC clique bit is nearly entirely the conception of paranoid players who feel that anyone aligned against them are in a clique. WHo feel that everyone who plays Desert Elves are in an OOC clique, etc, etc.

I wish they were not so paranoid that they cared.

Also, Staggerlee, I appreciate the fact that you think I'm an okay leader, but you don't have to agree with me. Heh. We've all got different views.

[fourTwenty]

I am sad.

I'm sad too, mainly because people severely over-estimate the number of cliques.... but the OOC clique bit is nearly entirely the conception of paranoid players who feel that anyone aligned against them are in a clique.

Has nothing to do with being paranoid. I've -seen- it. And even 1 is to many.

I see this all the time, "I knew this, that, and thet character, they were badass." "And your character, GDB_name, was fucking sweet also." That IMHO, happens way too much. When that happens, I've noticed you'll see the same group of people in the same clans on different occasions, or their PCs will be in the same social circle. Since the players know each other, the players don't want to do anything IC that would totally ruin the other character, even if it is IC. That is one of my biggest peeves.

[The7DeadlyVenomz]

Oh well. Worrying about everyone else is not going to help you make yourself better. Seriously. That's the point I am trying to make. I understand the concern, but when other people's 'cliques' and 'ooc communication' makes you stop playing the game, I just can't sympathize. Avoid those people and do something else somewhere else in the game.

That's what I do, and I've managed to have a pretty damned great RP experience over my 10 years.

[a strange shadow]

7DV, I had fun being your minion while you played a certain stern old white-skinned asskicker.

Don't be too hard on yourself.

[The7DeadlyVenomz]

Thanks.

Odd you haven't joined my 'clique'.

*grin*

I'm sorry, 420. I had to do that. I had to.

[fourTwenty]

Quite alright, 7DV, I thought it was funny as well.

[Malken]

Sometimes I feel like you need to have your own OOC clique to 'protect' yourself against other OOC cliques.

I'm not going to talk more about AIM and chatting with other players, though, because I feel like you're all waiting for someone to admit he or she's chatting with others to gang up on him in this thread,
even if I'm willing to bet that at least 80% of the players on Arm is in contact with at least another one in one way or another.

This is the feel good thread of 2008.

[musashi]

Maybe I'm playing in the wrong (or right) areas.

I've never really experienced the OOC social circles thing.

[Malken]

I think some big deal is being made about it.. It's not a matter of where you play or whatever.. Some people just enjoy playing together, it doesn't mean you'll snob anyone else that comes along.

It becomes a problem when you start using your AIM contacts to assassinate others or cheat the game, but again, I don't encounter that very often myself.

If you want someone guilty of having friends on Arm who I like to talk with about the game and things that totally don't matter in the grand scheme of things, then take your shot at me, I'll be that victim.

Then the rest of the playerbase can all pretend that they don't talk to each others outside the game and the mob shall be satisfied.

[Lizzie]

I have a couple of players on my buddy list, but I didn't even -have- a buddy list til a few months ago and I've been playing for a few years now. And sure, sometimes we talk about stuff - but I'm not the one complaining about the ooc cliques ruining anything for anyone either, or about being tired of the same old same old and not experiencing the "rush" of a newbie or the danger and excitement we all felt before we started adding names to our contact lists, or played a dozen characters and learned every square inch of the wastes.

I have "access" to the same information everyone else has access to, and I have knowledge of various aspects of the game that plenty of veterans have...and I STILL find it a rush to pass the same spots over and over again, with every single one of my characters. Even though I know *exactly* what to expect when I get there.

[musashi]

Seriously, I think that it's silly to expect Arm players to never talk to one another outside of the game, when we encourage Arm players to meet with one another via APM's and what have you. I don't have problem with people having other Arm players in their IM contact lists and chatting them up. That's totally cool! Really 

I just hope that people have the control to refrain from IM'ing something like: Oh man hurry up and log in! My guy fell in a whole and I think these desert elves are gonna kill him! I'm seven rooms west of the big statue!

We can probably all agree that is pretty twinkish and an abuse of OOC communication right? It's probably STILL twinkish even if the person just IM's: Hey log in real quick!

And /then/ proceeds to say the rest of that over the Way, right?

So, to reference back to the discussion that was going on in the Random Arm Thoughts thread, I think that IM'ing something like: Hey, can you log your Templar in?

Is basically the same thing, and just as bad. Because as soon as the templar logs in, the player is going to way them, and spill the beans about whatever.

Not doing things like that goes towards preserving the wonder of the game, to me.

[Malken]

There's probably a shitload more IC infos being passed around in -1- APM after everyone had a few drinks than an entire year of AIM gossips amongst the entire playerbase.

[The7DeadlyVenomz]

Ha.

Actually, having been to an APM, I disagree with -that- particular thought. Of course the game was spoken about, but for the most part, we didn't talk about the game. I was shocked at the number of things we talked about other than the game.

[Malken]

Ha.

Actually, having been to an APM, I disagree with -that- particular thought. Of course the game was spoken about, but for the most part, we didn't talk about the game. I was shocked at the number of things we talked about other than the game.

The Dragoncon ones don't count, they're being 'chaperoned' by the presence of Staff 

[The7DeadlyVenomz]

Oh. Eh. I really doubt that had anything to do with it. I never once considered any of the staff there as ... well, staff. They were just people. They contributed to the chatter as much as everyone else did.

[Riev]

I think there may be different types of OOC information, just like different types of IC information.

[fourTwenty]

Seriously, I think that it's silly to expect Arm players to never talk to one another outside of the game, when we encourage Arm players to meet with one another via APM's and what have you. I don't have problem with people having other Arm players in their IM contact lists and chatting them up. That's totally cool! Really 

I just hope that people have the control to refrain from IM'ing something like: Oh man hurry up and log in! My guy fell in a whole and I think these desert elves are gonna kill him! I'm seven rooms west of the big statue!

We can sprobably all agree that is pretty twinkish and an outright abuse of OOC communication right? It's probably STILL twinkishabuse even if the person just IM's: Hey log in real quick!

And /then/ proceeds to say the rest of that over the Way, right?

So, to reference back to the discussion that was going on in the Random Arm Thoughts thread, I think that IM'ing something like: Hey, can you log your Templar in?

Is basically the same thing, and just as bad. Because as soon as the templar logs in, the player is going to way them, and spill the beans about whatever.

Not doing things like that goes towards preserving the wonder of the game, to me.

This is what I'm trying to say. I don't think you shouldn't make friends and talk about how much you like the game. But not while you're playing the game. I think people should still follow the one year thing. I really don't trust the playerbase this much anymore. I used to. I might could again. But shit happens, and has happened, that makes me think everybody's got the "It's them not me, what I'm doing is okay" attitude.

[Fathi]

I am sad.

I'm sad too, mainly because people severely over-estimate the number of cliques.... but the OOC clique bit is nearly entirely the conception of paranoid players who feel that anyone aligned against them are in a clique.

Has nothing to do with being paranoid. I've -seen- it. And even 1 is to many.

I see this all the time, "I knew this, that, and thet character, they were badass." "And your character, GDB_name, was fucking sweet also." That IMHO, happens way too much. When that happens, I've noticed you'll see the same group of people in the same clans on different occasions, or their PCs will be in the same social circle. Since the players know each other, the players don't want to do anything IC that would totally ruin the other character, even if it is IC. That is one of my biggest peeves.

The problem with the bolded part is that, in my opinion, it's an unfair assumption made on a player's part to automatically decide that people who play together often are doing it because they all know each other out of character and are intentionally trying to stick together as a group.

There are a lot of situations I've encountered where I've ended up playing with the same people (one guy in three clans in a row, even) when they're somebody I've never spoken to and don't 'know' at all. As an off-peak player, I am of the opinion that a lot of it is playtimes and availability--if there are only five or six people logged in during most of the time that you play, chances are you're going to run into the same people on multiple characters and multiple characters of theirs just because it's a lot harder to avoid it.

You also have to take PC longevity into account: Bill the templar and Ted the soldier played together in Kadius a bit ago, okay. The probability that Bill will hire one of Ted's characters goes up the longer Bill lives and the more characters Ted goes through, provided Ted has an interest in playing in a militia. Then somebody else who was in Kadius recently enough to have seen their forum posts joins the AoD and sees both Bill and Ted on the roll-call thread.

I'm not saying that this excuses every single instance of people playing together or that OOC groups don't exist, but with a playerbase as small as ours, random encounters happen a -lot- more than you'd think. Thinking that OOC collusion is rampant enough to destroy your interest in the game is your  own business, but if you imagine it's happening that much, I think you're assuming a lot of unfair things about a lot of innocent players.

[tortall]

Ok, this is, no, it's NOT good to go around telling people stuff oocly that they should learn icly.

But, given that, if someone DOES tell you something, and you're not smart enough to keep it OUT OF YOUR CHARACTERS KNOWLEDGE, then how the heck do you expect to keep what you learned ICLY from a previous character, out of the mind of your currently character? If you can't do the former, then the latter is also a problem. Since people died on Arm ALL THE TIME, you will continue to have said problem.

[AmandaGreathouse]

Ok, this is, no, it's NOT good to go around telling people stuff oocly that they should learn icly.

But, given that, if someone DOES tell you something, and you're not smart enough to keep it OUT OF YOUR CHARACTERS KNOWLEDGE, then how the heck do you expect to keep what you learned ICLY from a previous character, out of the mind of your currently character? If you can't do the former, then the latter is also a problem. Since people died on Arm ALL THE TIME, you will continue to have said problem.

This.... -all-.... day.... long. Both ways!

[FantasyWriter]

Ok, this is, no, it's NOT good to go around telling people stuff oocly that they should learn icly.

But, given that, if someone DOES tell you something, and you're not smart enough to keep it OUT OF YOUR CHARACTERS KNOWLEDGE, then how the heck do you expect to keep what you learned ICLY from a previous character, out of the mind of your currently character? If you can't do the former, then the latter is also a problem. Since people died on Arm ALL THE TIME, you will continue to have said problem.

This.... -all-.... day.... long. Both ways!

Agreed, we can argue about IC knowledge all day, but we have an 'abusive' amount of IC knowledge every time we roll up another character.
What we do or do not choose for out character to know is up to us as the player.


A. (IC knowledge from yourself):
I have found at least three places in the wild, that made me so witless I couldn't even put together a coherent though for my PC to think about it for over ten minutes.
None of which have i visited again, except for one that I was led to buy another player during a clan RPT.
I have had dirty IC secrets about PCs that I leaned from a previous PC that I could have exploited to take advantage of them of even gotten them killed.
I have seen PCs that killed one of my previous PCs, and knew I could take them.

I can honestly say that I never exploited IC knowledge from one PC to the next. (other than world knowledge that i wrote into the background)

B. (IC knowledge from one player to another):
Have I told people I trusted about something super-spectacular that I saw or experience before? Yes.
Have I been told things like this by people who trusted me? Yes.
Did we ask the other persons consent before telling them any thing? Yes.
Was the game or playerbase hurt by this in anyway? No.. If so, I don't see how.

C. PCs played by staff members:
They have access (AFAIK) to almost all available information about the game world, and I have no knowledge of them abusing this information through their PCs in the recent past. (since I have been playing, at least)

I honestly don't see the difference between the three.

[tortall]

Awesome stuff.

Exactly. So, is there still a problem?

[The7DeadlyVenomz]

Awesome stuff.

Exactly. So, is there still a problem?

Some people will never be happy. I frankly believe that people are not as evil as we like to think they are. Everybody in this game knows something they shouldn't. It's impossible in a game where you live multiple lives not to. And yet somehow, we all manage to produce pretty good results.

I'd advise less worry and more play. Nobody will ever be constantly happy, but I'll bet they could be happier.