Preserving the Wonder and Mystery

[Gimfalisette]

A list of suggestions to the ARM playerbase as a whole. Recently I am feeling really bummed out about our rampant spread of IC information by OOC means. Game secrets, character secrets, all kinds of stuff. I think we need to rein ourselves in and commit to curbing the spread.

-- Even if you, the player, know that a certain type or category of character might have the powers of a sorceror, mindbender, or some other high-karma thing, don't let your new character know it, if they have no 100% solid IC reason to have to know it. Yes, that means your character will be bumbling around and probably exposed to IC problems/consequences. It also means you won't be leaking that information to newer players without good reason to do so.

-- Really, that goes for any game secret or nuance. If your new character doesn't HAVE to know it, don't let them know it! Yes, even though you might have played in Tuluk for a year and know exactly how to interact with Tuluki nobles, this means your Allanaki character might go to Tuluk and totally screw up!

-- Every time you post on the forums about something that's not in the help files, ask yourself, "Am I potentially ruining a newbie's fun of finding out IC, by posting this?" If the answer is, "Yes," then please stop yourself from posting.

-- Consider the possibility that you, as a veteran player, are more than a little jaded about what is IC and what is OOC transmission of information. Pull back a bit and look at ARM as a precious thing that should be found out about IC not because you're hoarding and think you're "elite," but because it is so much more mind-bogglingly awesome and fun and immersive to find out things IC.

-- Don't post stuff on the forums that clearly identifies what character you're playing. Maybe you don't really care, but other players do not necessarily want to know who your character is, because it could possibly nudge IC situations one direction or another, even unconsciously.

-- Don't ask people stuff on IM, or on PM, or on the forums, about IC stuff. Just commit to not doing it. If you think someone might say "find out IC," then don't ask in the first place. Then you are not tempting/encouraging other players to spread OOC info.

-- If there's someone on your IM list who you talk to and who consistently leaks IC info to you, the next time they start to do it, gently say to them, "Please do not tell me IC info." Yes, you can resist the temptation even to hear IC stuff! Most people I've said this to respond really well to it.

-- If there's someone you talk to on IM who asks you for IC information, tell them to find out IC. If you already tell them that sometimes but not always, tell them more often. Become more firm in your discipline on this.

-- If all else fails, stop talking to people who aren't careful with IC info.

-- If someone offers to email you "that map that everyone has," say no, you don't want it. If you already have that map, delete it.

-- Assume that everyone playing loves the game and has as much care for it as you do. We all need the reminder to "find out IC" at times. Assume that anyone who's saying this to you, just wants the most fun possible for you.

Anyone else have suggestions? I know there are some things I need to do better myself. I am committing to doing better and helping keep down the OOC info spread. I want to preserve the wonder and mystery both for myself, and for everyone around me, especially noobs.

[staggerlee]

I think that considering what your character would and would not know, even to the extent of making big ic mistakes goes a long way.

If you're playing a desert elf and wander into Nak, feel free to get lost, sit in the wrong tavern or have no idea what a "metaphor" is or what the word "perjury" means. 

We've got a lot of very educated players, with a very strong knowledge of both the game world and the real world.  Before you use a concept, be it logical, philosophical, knowledge based, or anything, consider where your character is from and what they'd know.

[LoD]

Another pitfall to avoid is assuming that everyone knows what you know.  It's difficult for veterans who have played the game for years and years to separate what is common knowledge and what is actually rare knowledge they've simply learned over the years and now seems common.

Even innocent statements like, "You know that tower at the base of those cliffs in that place, right?" or "Man I hate that stupid bamuk rabies bite." can ruin the mystery and joy of discovery for players who haven't shared your same set of experiences.

You may think everybody has experienced, learned, seen, heard of, or witnessed somewhere, someone, or something in game, but assume they haven't and you'll probably be more accurate.  I've also seen quite a lot of referencing IC information using the Armageddon Documentation as a pseudo-reference.  The documentation might read something like, "Day'Quill is a mild poison rumored to cause drowsiness and sometimes used to combat aches and pains.  It is often derived from greenish plants with dots or marks."  That doesn't mean you can go around making statements such as, "The greenish leaves with red spots are Day'Quill." or "I've tried poisoning people with Day'Quill through water, food, and weapons and nothing seems to make them fall asleep!"

Err on the side of caution.  Assume nobody else knows about these things and purposefully be vague and ambiguous out of courtesy for those players visiting the GDB that don't already know the information you're providing.

If you're ever unsure, email the mud account instead of posting on the GDB.

-LoD

[Naox]

I can't begin to tell you how much I appreciate this post. It's really encouraging to see players involved in this. Grow little post, grow.

[staggerlee]

Another pitfall to avoid is assuming that everyone knows what you know.  It's difficult for veterans who have played the game for years and years to separate what is common knowledge and what is actually rare knowledge they've simply learned over the years and now seems common.

Even innocent statements like, "You know that tower at the base of those cliffs in that place, right?" or "Man I hate that stupid bamuk rabies bite." can ruin the mystery and joy of discovery for players who haven't shared your same set of experiences.

You may think everybody has experienced, learned, seen, heard of, or witnessed somewhere, someone, or something in game, but assume they haven't and you'll probably be more accurate.  I've also seen quite a lot of referencing IC information using the Armageddon Documentation as a pseudo-reference.  The documentation might read something like, "Day'Quill is a mild poison rumored to cause drowsiness and sometimes used to combat aches and pains.  It is often derived from greenish plants with dots or marks."  That doesn't mean you can go around making statements such as, "The greenish leaves with red spots are Day'Quill." or "I've tried poisoning people with Day'Quill through water, food, and weapons and nothing seems to make them fall asleep!"

Err on the side of caution.  Assume nobody else knows about these things and purposefully be vague and ambiguous out of courtesy for those players visiting the GDB that don't already know the information you're providing.

If you're ever unsure, email the mud account instead of posting on the GDB.

-LoD

I think that your poison example strikes a very, very important point. Just because it's in the documentation doesn't mean that your character knows it, or that it still wouldn't be fun to find out ic.  There's a lot of stuff that I've had people teach my characters in game, much to my fascination and delight, and then much later found while reading a doc.   

It's so much more fun to get hit with a poison arrow and then have the medic explaining it to you while they patch you up than to get hit with a poison arrow, type help poison, and contact everyone you know asking for the ____ that will cure _____.

There are documents I still haven't read, in part because I just don't want to find out that way. 

[RogueGunslinger]

>em blows softly onto the embers.

I agree. I have had a few extremely Wow moments lately... Things that I just didn't even begin to imagine were in the game... And I want everyone to experience those things IC.

[Tisiphone]

This should be GDB mantra.

Further, a point about arguments/discussions on the GDB: you don't always have to be right, especially not at the expense of IC info. Fictional example: perhaps someone thinks rangers should be able to ambush animals and get huge combat bonuses against them dependent on ride skill. Perhaps another person thinks that's silly, and that combat shouldn't take into account types of opponent or ride skill. Enter you; you've maxed out a ranger at 382 days played, and you know for a fact that 'ambush animal' branches from maxed ride.

Leave the conversation alone. The spread of ignorance about the game is fine; the spread of knowledge is not.

[Fathi]

Older players, when talking to newer players, don't make "find out IC" sound like a punishment or a reprimand.

Explain and emphasise the reasons why secrets are important and fun.

Don't just brush somebody off with a "find out IC" that comes off sounding more like "I had it hard as a noob and you should, too."

Newer players, realise that getting a "find out IC" answer does NOT mean you're screwing up or you tried to break the rules. Don't take it as though you're being scolded.

[Maybe42or54]

Well, for the most part Gimf, I agree. However, if some questions aren't asked, and ideas that -sound- like they'd be in the game, aren't in the game, then they will never be implemented.

For example: The recent ride update. I always thought terrain, mount, speed, etc affected if your mount moved or not, but up until that post, and Morgenes' actions, it wasn't. I remember asking IG when I was newbie if it was easier to ride on the north road than the wastes, and was told that, yes, it was easier. It -sounds- like it'd be easier, but up until Morg, it wasn't.

Rarsh brought up the idea it would be cool if shields could block arrows, and he was told to find out IC and yes, you could. Oddly enough, I was told the same thing OOC when I was newer. Eight months after being told, I witnessed it, did I say "Knew that was going to happen.. Bleh." No... I'm like "Mother fucker! holy shit! Look at that guy, practically just walking through the wall of arrows! He is a bonafide badass." It still amazes me when that happens. More questions = More ideas

Another problem, I completely agree with, that you said, is that players need to know when to take Information their character would know and -not- use it IG. That is a player responsibility that is heavily lacking. I see this all the time, "I knew this, that, and thet character, they were badass." "And your character, GDB_name, was fucking sweet also." That IMHO, happens way too much. When that happens, I've noticed you'll see the same group of people in the same clans on different occasions, or their PCs will be in the same social circle. Since the players know each other, the players don't want to do anything IC that would totally ruin the other character, even if it is IC. That is one of my biggest peeves.

[Seeker]

Archive quality, Gimf.


Seeker

[Tisiphone]

Well, for the most part Gimf, I agree. However, if some questions aren't asked, and ideas that -sound- like they'd be in the game, aren't in the game, then they will never be implemented.

For example: The recent ride update. I always thought terrain, mount, speed, etc affected if your mount moved or not, but up until that post, and Morgenes' actions, it wasn't.

Rarsh brought up the idea it would be cool if shields could block arrows.

Let me recast these examples in a different light.

Morgenes implemented the ride code completely on the staff end, and I didn't see a thread regarding whether or not ride had modifiers. However, your post isn't about specifics, it merely uses them, so past here I will address it in that light. If we don't -know- how the ride code works, we can suggest improvements, even if we don't know whether or not those improvements have been implemented. Threads like this used to exist all over the place; go back to the code discussion backlog and you'll see them. In fact, your mistake in thinking that this code already existed was due to the OOC spread of IC info - it just happened to be misinformation in that case.

As for the idea that 'twould be cool if shields could block arrows, the thread spiralled down from there into the sharing of IC info. Here's how it could have gone instead.

Rarsh: Hey, I don't know if this can be done, but the ability to block arrows would be really cool.
7DV (used simply as a name that came to mind, as are all the names below): Yeah, you're right. But how would we implement that? Obviously, smaller shields should have a smaller chance to block, and break more easily
OHST: Hmm. I like this idea. I think shield material should affect chance and damage reduction too, since arrows are more likely to penetrate soft wood than chitin or bone.
Gimf: I disagree with you guys. I think shields should have a flat modifier according mostly to skill, because Zalanthans don't use shield tactics and we're talking about single arrows.

while Fathi, who knows in fact that shields can already block arrows, doesn't post.

[X-D]

A long time ago. the most common answer to a question was not Find out IC.

But something a bit longer.

That was, If you think it should, it probobly does, you will have to find out on your own.

If it doesn't, mail the staff on the matter or bug/idea it IG.

Now some things though have been bugged/idea's hundreds of times and still not fixed. Then you email staff several times and get no reply.

After all that, Meh, you have no real choice but to either ignore it or take it to the GDB. An amazing amount of stuff gets fixed or added from GDB discussions actually.

I could put in much more, but its more my opinion, because what might wow you does not..nor did it ever wow me. The first time I saw somebody parry an arrow with a a big ass shield the OOC reaction was, Meh, thats shit is broken.
And, it is, though if I say why it is here, everybody will scream IC info or revealing code!!!!

Problem is, there is no hard and fast rule on this stuff. Some people read the docs, some people read ALL of the docs then read them again. Some people only read enough to get by. There is no way for me to know who those people are, and I really don't think I should even be expected to care. I'm more on the side of, "if you don't want to possibly be exposed to minor IC /code issues, don't read the GDB." I didn't myself for many years.

[Gimfalisette]

I will tell a story that illustrates my hopes for all newbs to ARM, and indeed, for all of us who don't know everything already.

Once upon a time, I played a bard girl in Tuluk. She had made friends with a soldier of the Legions. They were kind of fond of each other. Well, the bard girl got a task from her patron, that she didn't know how to complete: She was supposed to go to Under Tuluk and do something. She had no idea where Under Tuluk was or how to get there, and -I- had no idea. So the bard girl's soldier friend showed her, because he did know.

Now, this may seem like a very simple, small secret. And indeed, the knowledge of where Under Tuluk is and how to get there seems rudimentary to -me- now.

But at the time, I OOCly felt like this: "Oh wow, a game secret! Oh this is so neat! I must be kind of special and important, if this other player is willing to share this with me! Wow wow wow! Finding out IC really works!"

Dalmeth could probably kill my future characters like 10 times, and I'd still have a warm place in my heart for him, for showing me my first game secret.

[brytta.leofa]

I agree when it comes to aspects of the world that don't have a direct real-world parallel...magick, psionics, specifics of geography (Under Tuluk I grant you, Gim), culture, and politics that are not generally known.  I disagree when it comes to the simulation of mundane skills.  Nobody should be particularly surprised to learn that shields can be used to stop arrows, whether he's seen Braveheart or not.

As a player, I generally do want to know whether the code takes things into account like you'd hope it does.  It's a simulated world, and some parts are always going to be illogical.  Not knowing what those parts are causes sadness and stupid death.

The grizzled sergeant says, beetling brows at you,
  "You gotta et them pills in the order I told you!"
You ask the grizzled sergeant,
  "But why? They both ends up in mah belly, ain't they?"
The grizzled sergeant says, cryptically,
  "Tain't coded like that, runner."

[Tisiphone]

A long time ago. the most common answer to a question was not Find out IC.

But something a bit longer.

That was, If you think it should, it probably does, you will have to find out on your own.

If it doesn't, mail the staff on the matter or bug/idea it IG.

This is a very good answer.

Now some things though have been bugged/idea's hundreds of times and still not fixed. Then you email staff several times and get no reply.

Probably because the staff, knowing more than you, disagree, think that the benefit/cost ratio is extremely unfavourable, or are currently overworked. Despite submitting numerous bug reports and emailing staff, I have never had a problem with code resolution.

After all that, meh, you have no real choice but to either ignore it or take it to the GDB.

This is specifically against the posting rules and official staff position.

An amazing amount of stuff gets fixed or added from GDB discussions actually.

I would want to see proof that not only do things get fixed after GDB discussions more often than without them, but also that the GDB discussions somehow contribute to that solution, to avoid making a propter hoc error.

[staggerlee]

I will tell a story that illustrates my hopes for all newbs to ARM, and indeed, for all of us who don't know everything already.

Once upon a time, I played a bard girl in Tuluk. She had made friends with a soldier of the Legions. They were kind of fond of each other. Well, the bard girl got a task from her patron, that she didn't know how to complete: She was supposed to go to Under Tuluk and do something. She had no idea where Under Tuluk was or how to get there, and -I- had no idea. So the bard girl's soldier friend showed her, because he did know.

Now, this may seem like a very simple, small secret. And indeed, the knowledge of where Under Tuluk is and how to get there seems rudimentary to -me- now.

But at the time, I OOCly felt like this: "Oh wow, a game secret! Oh this is so neat! I must be kind of special and important, if this other player is willing to share this with me! Wow wow wow! Finding out IC really works!"

Dalmeth could probably kill my future characters like 10 times, and I'd still have a warm place in my heart for him, for showing me my first game secret.

Meanwhile he got to interact with someone and explain something ic, thus making his character look more seasoned by comparison and giving you both interaction.  Rather than opening that map file, n n w e u e d d n complete task, turn in for reward

That's a really good example.  Tiny little things encouraging interaction and rp, and leaving at least one person totally happy and excited about it.

Could we please, both sides of this, exercise some restraint and not see this thread turn into flames? Just try to stay on topic.  Start another thread to argue the philosophy of ic/ooc boundaries.

[Lizzie]

I like everything I've read so far. To touch a little on what Fathi said though, there's also a matter of going too far with the whole "find out IC" issue. I've been told that twice that I'm aware of, only to discover what I was asking about was actually a snippet of buggy code and NOT an IC situation at all. I've also asked a few times about things I couldn't find in the help files, and was told to find out IC, and then I discovered after the fact, that I was trying to do a "search" for the wrong words. The help files were there, and very explicit, and very helpful. They just weren't intuitive so it took me awhile to find them.

So mostly what I'm saying is, to veterans - if someone asks you something, and you are about to tell them "find out IC," please make sure it really IS an IC thing, before saying that. Because if I find out a month later that I struggled for days about something, becoming frustrated, spending countless hours trying to do something IC, that turned out not to be an IC thing at all, it will certainly indicate which veterans to stop trusting for help, and who to stop recommending that new players go to.

[Tisiphone]

I agree when it comes to aspects of the world that don't have a direct real-world parallel...magick, psionics, specifics of geography (Under Tuluk I grant you, Gim), culture, and politics that are not generally known.  I disagree when it comes to the simulation of mundane skills.  Nobody should be particularly surprised to learn that shields can be used to stop arrows, whether he's seen Braveheart or not.

As a player, I generally do want to know whether the code takes things into account like you'd hope it does.  It's a simulated world, and some parts are always going to be illogical.  Not knowing what those parts are causes sadness and stupid death.

The grizzled sergeant says, beetling brows at you,
  "You gotta et them pills in the order I told you!"
You ask the grizzled sergeant,
  "But why? They both ends up in mah belly, ain't they?"
The grizzled sergeant says, cryptically,
  "Tain't coded like that, runner."

This is a tempting stance to take, but I must respectfully disagree for reasons I believe I've stated above, but will attempt to tailour into a response here. Firstly, most of the things that we assume work like real life generally do. Secondly, those parts that don't may not be broken. Here are at least three possibilities that come to mind to the contrary:

- there may be playability issues. For example, you can't easily one-shot someone in combat even as a mul (note: I don't know that this is true, so don't take it as truth!) because ending characters that brutally and easily isn't favourable to a game atmosphere.

- you may not have as good an understanding of how real-life works as the person who attempted to code how something works. Lots of things I see posted are going off of 'common sense' viz. a vague understanding of pop culture physics and sociology.

- you may not be taking all of the game-world's variables into account. Take especial note of the virtual ones, and give people the benefit of the doubt.

Finally, and importantly to what I think the heart of this thread is, oftentimes even the well-intentioned spread of IC info does more harm to the game than good.

[X-D]

Now some things though have been bugged/idea's hundreds of times and still not fixed. Then you email staff several times and get no reply.


Probably because the staff, knowing more than you, disagree, think that the benefit/cost ratio is extremely unfavourable, or are currently overworked. Despite submitting numerous bug reports and emailing staff, I have never had a problem with code resolution

There, I bolded the key point there, which makes your response null.

An amazing amount of stuff gets fixed or added from GDB discussions actually.


I would want to see proof that not only do things get fixed after GDB discussions more often than without them, but also that the GDB discussions somehow contribute to that solution, to avoid making a propter hoc error.

To this point, I'm not going to go back and search through 3 GDB and 15 years worth of archives, Sorry.

But to name a few. Being able to eat a tablet even when you are full
Having weight changed to  be able to go lower then 1 stone.
Watch command.
Feel
mood
ride tweaks
poison tweaks
more skills using stam
hemote
semote
command emotes
and there are MANY more.

True, this could all have come about by bugging or emails. But oddly, in EVERY case it did not happen untill AFTER being talked about on GDB. Coincidence? I think not.

[Gimfalisette]

Some people will probably not have seen this before, so I thought I'd re-post it. Behold the story of what can happen to the game when IC information is spread OOCly.

From the old old archives at http://www.armageddon.org/HyperNews/get/general-archive1996/7.html :

Many times, I've heard players say they'd like to be able to see behind the scenes of Armageddon. That they'd like to be able to find out what the whole story is.

This will be a chance to see one small part of the world, that you probably haven't seen before. I'm going to tell you about a quest, some of the motivations behind it, and the actions that transpired. Why am I going to do this?

Because some people were talking on isca, and spread some OOC info. I could continue the quest even with people knowing what they've heard there, but it just won't be that much fun for anyone involved, myself included. Those players spreading OOC info effectively killed the quest.

I hope that you take the time to read this, and that the next time that you are in a situation where you might feel like telling someone something that happened In Character, that you will think about how you may be ruining someone else's fun.

There was a dwarf, a defiler, named Freil. He used his magick to put people to sleep and rob them, while he slowly grew in power. For over 5 months his attacks in Tuluk and Allanak had people hunting for the sorcerer, although none knew what he looked like. Freil had his own motivations for his actions, most of which was to extend his life, as the old dwarf was nearing the end of his days. I would give you his whole life history, but this post will be too lengthy already.

Finally, Freil got overly greedy, and set upon a group of 4 Jkarr who were outside of the city. One was able to see the invisible dwarf, and Freil fled, angry that after several years of robberies, his description was now going to get out. He tried to talk the Jkarr into saying that he'd killed Freil, in exchange for money and help, but the Jkarr refused. At this point, probably 15 or more players were involved in the quest, either hunting Freil, or having been targets of his.

It is at this point, that the first player who engaged in the OOC talk that ultimitely ruined the quest, became involved. PC1 walked widely through the streets of Tuluk, asking people if they wished to go "hunting defilers", and one of Freil's spies heard him, and reported it to the dwarf. PC1 was ambushed on the road, and his backpack stolen while he slept a magickal sleep. Several more encounters between the two took place, Freil managing to stay a step ahead of PC1. Freil again, tried to bribe PC1 into telling others Freil was dead, but PC1 refused, and boasted of killing other sorcerers, and what he'd do to Freil. At this point, Freil grew so angry at PC1, that he dedicated his focus to ruining PC1's life.

Freil, in searching to extend his life, developed a new magick. He gained the ability to create an image of PC1, though the cost was great. It would only last for a short time, but Freil was able to control the fake-PC1 while his body lay dormant, for periods up to an hour or two.

Several times, the fake PC1 went forth, insulting friends, and causing trouble. Freil's goal was to eventually make things so bad for PC1, that his own friends would kill him.

Freil also never gave PC1 rest, and several times tried to drag PC1 away from his friends, put him to sleep, then defile the land until he could create the fake-PC1, and send him back in.

It was soon after this, that PC1 and PC2, out hunting for Freil, were attacked by undead from an entirely different source. PC2 sent out a message to a third person (PC3), telling him that they were probably going to die, and to pass on some final words to a loved one of his if they didn't make it out.

They made it out, although PC 3 was not around at the time to know it. PC1 and PC2 went on to have several very high-profile adventures over the next few real life days. PC1 and PC2 though, went out exploring some more, and managed to get themselves killed. No one knew where they had gone, or that they were dead.

I, as an immortal, knew they had died. However, Freil had no way of knowing, and so he continued using the fake-PC1 to set the character up. I was very gratified to see the puzzled reactions of some of PC1's friends as he told them he'd struck an agreement with the defiler, but that they couldn't talk about it until he said it was safe (so that they wouldn't mention it again to the real PC1).

I planned to continue like this, and saw many possibilities for if Freil and the fake-PC. I guesstimate that over 20 characters had been involved in the quest to this point, and if I played the fake-PC well, I could probably involve a lot of players in the game.

Until... I log in, and hear people talking about how both of these characters are dead. PC3, who had been told the two were dying, had heard OOC that they'd died. Because of this, he never bothered to ask around to see if they were still alive. He instead just started telling people they were dead. If the players of the 2 dead PC's had not spread the word on ISCA they had died, PC3, who heard of the other adventures these 2 had had after their close call, would have inquired as to the timing, and found out they had been seen for IC weeks after he'd received the contact. Indeed, soon after their death, the fake-PC1 showed up and was seen by at least 10 players.

Well, now that everyone knows they are really dead, it really does make it hard me to run the quest. Those people who were directly interacting with the fake-PC1, would have had a lot of fun, I think, as they gradually figured out their friend wasn't what they thought he was. But now they know he is really dead, even OOCly, they were robbed of the chance to figure it all out on their own by the OOC actions of all 3 players.

That is why I'm posting this. That is why I'm taking the time to tell you the whole story. When you talk OOC, you are screwing over your fellow players. Even seemingly insignificant things like this, hurt the game, and ruin other people's fun.

The next time you find yourself in a situation where you want to tell a friend something that happened on the mud, please remember this story. We all love Armageddon, and it is natural to want to talk about it. But maybe you can reminesce about a character who is long dead instead, and save that new tale for somewhere down the road.

- Thanas

[staggerlee]

Just for good measure and because I think it rather concisely describes what several people have tried to say:

2. Do NOT post information that is IC-sensitive. While debates over definitions of this term have raged in the past on the discussion boards, one fact has emerged: some people really prefer to experience things in the game, rather than inadvertently have the experience spoiled for them from reading this board. Therefore, when asking yourself whether or not what you're posting is too IC-sensitive, err on the side of caution.

http://www.zalanthas.org/gdb/index.php/topic,28823.0.html

[Seeker]

That story is worth remembering.  It would have been an -awesome- plot, and everyone missed out on it.

To the point of discussing code, I think we all agree (with X-D) that discussing how we think the code should work is absolutely fine.  Many improvements have been made from suggestions like this.  The problem comes in when players begin to describe how the current codes does work. Or to explain the deficiencies in the current code in defense of their suggestions.

Take the example of riding.  Instead of anyone giving up any details about how the current code is reflected IG (which is against GDB forum policy), focusing on how it might work better got great results for everyone.  There really are dozens of examples like that.

Sometimes, I imagine, the staff just sits back chuckling, knowing that the current code it operating even better than what was suggested on the GDB.  Other times, the underlying code has been improved by staff with suggestions and the game just got better for everyone and no secrets or misinformation were revealed.

Suggestions of how code should work = good.
Explanations of any kind of how the current code does work = bad.


Seeker

[The7DeadlyVenomz]

Suggestions of how code should work = good.
Explanations of any kind of how the current code does work = bad.

See, this is really my pet peeve about people saying find out OOC.

I absolutely agree concerning plot related stuff. That stuff should be kept IG. But code? It is really no different than buying a D&D manual and learning how to play D&D. If you think about it, actually, we are playing D&D. The code has no effect on how awesome your D&D experience is. That falls in the realm of Dungeon Master storytelling.

Why should a newbie not know that one day he will block water ballons? Or that one day, he can take the feat, block water ballons? Such a stance is actually putting an emphasis on code, something that the same players decry so often.

For the sake of those people, I will watch my responses, but I really think that minor shit about the code should not rip such a angered response from people that are more concerned about the story anyway. I mean, no matter how many little things the staff tucks into the code, it really is just a couple of dice in the end, anyway.

[Seeker]

I don't believe reading the GDB should be the way to learn the mechanics, strengths, tricks and shortcomings of the code. The staff policy seems clear that it is not.

The help files, e-mailing the Mud Account, the use of Helpers and IC experiences (even including the proper use, if necessary, of the OOC command) are all wonderfully designed to handle that.  I am not suggesting hiding syntax or short-changing anyone's understanding of how to move and interact in the world.  I am just suggesting that the GDB is not the place to exchange such information or to pull aside the curtain and reveal the machinery's construction.


Seeker

[Apocalyptic_Cow]

Now some things though have been bugged/idea's hundreds of times and still not fixed. Then you email staff several times and get no reply.

After all that, Meh, you have no real choice but to either ignore it or take it to the GDB. An amazing amount of stuff gets fixed or added from GDB discussions actually.

To me, this sounds like you are demanding that a specific area of a game of your personal concern gets immediate attention, otherwise you are going to stomp on the fun of other players to get what you want. To me, this sounds like a very unfair expectation, and frankly, it isn't a very respectful way to treat other players. Staff are busy, I'm sure they get tons of emails regarding things like clan updates and plots they are running regularly that have prioritized attention. Sometimes your emails likely get overlooked -- but come on, do what you would like to have done to you if you were in their shoes: send a polite reminder later. If you don't get a response, send again after a fair amount of time. Then again. If you are cool about it, I'm sure they will eventually notice or remember the issue you are trying to raise, and it will get taken care of just the same.

Sometimes I don't think people realize that staff are volunteers, meaning they are unpaid, which means this is not their job and they have a limited amount of time to deal with certain issues every so often. Add to that that only certain staff can fix certain issues like code. Now, if say, Morgenes, is feeling particularly inspired one day to hop on and hammer out a section of Arm Reborn code that he just had a good idea about, I don't want your 'taking things to the GDB' to throw him off at that instant because you demand your issue gets attention before what he considers its priority to really be in the greater scheme of the game. I don't want a clan's RPT to be less vivid because, at that moment, something else needed to get attention because someone was talking about it loudly on the GDB.

I just think that revealing IC info on the GDB is a lousy way of motivating staff to get things done, or motivating them in general. We're a community of eccentric people who like to play an on-line text-based roleplaying game. There is a lot more in common between us all than I think most of us assume. I think a lot of the IC info stuff comes down to just being cool with people, respect that people may -not- want to know things. Nobody is saying that you and your best friend can't talk about the game, but in a room full of crowded people, just try not to shout out things that might bother others.

[mansa]

I blame ShaLeah and the growing popularity of ArmageddonMUD in 2001.

[X-D]

It seems to you because maybe you think that way.

Again, the key words to that post are "No Reply".

I don't even care if somebody comes up with an automatic form letter that replies, "Mail read"

As long as you KNOW it has not been lost in the shuffle, Which staff admits does happen from time to time then you also know that it is being looked into or that staff has seen it and decided to Not look into it, either of which is fine and up to them.

I know staff is busy, but for this reason and many others, reply email is important.

Nobody is saying OMG THEY ARE NOT FIXING IT RIGHT NOW GO LAY EVERYTHING OUT ON THE GDB!!!!!

Also, many things I think SHOULD be talked about on the GDB before they go in...True, I know that if staff wants it, no amount of complaining by the players is going to change that. But discussing it helps as well. And its not like you can talk about code IG really.

Hell, we even have a code discussion forum.

BTW, staff has been quite on the ball IG, I typo'd something today and it was fixed like 2 minutes later. Grins.

I really do understand, and to some extent agree with those that are worried about IG information on an OOC forum. I just do not agree where many of the same people think this line is. Or, even when I do I think you take it WAY to far.

Should I ask about where the stables are in the super sekrit smurf village...No, and even if I do, should somebody answer it...no. And of course you should be pissed off that I gave out the information of the super sekrit smurf village.

But if Amos asks where the stables are in allanak, thats not nearly so bad, sure, you might not know allanak has a stable and be annoyed that the person asked, but at the same time, its not IC info. Now, should somebody answer that question here...again, maybe not. The answer should of course be, wish up, ask IG or email or ask a helper.

But when it comes to code, if its in a general help file that any body can and IMO SHOULD have read. Leave it alone.


Meh, I'm rambling.

[jstorrie]

I just think that revealing IC info on the GDB is a lousy way of motivating staff to get things done, or motivating them in general.

Yes. Agreed. But a code problem–say, the recent 'poisons don't work with throw' bug, which was just fixed–is not an IC issue. It's not reasonable for your character to 'know' that 'something has changed in the laws of physics and poisoned blades no longer deliver poison properly when thrown.' But conversely it could be very important for you, as a player, to know that that ability of your PC is currently bugged and nonfunctional. Ditto with typos, desc change requests, reimbursements, crashes, etc. These are not in-character issues.

[Rarsh]

I'm a bit hesitant to jump in, because I'm starting to think that my contribution to the GDB conversation has been, shall we say, more of a withdrawal. If anyone feels that's the case, and wants to PM me with a 'yeah, you might wanna lay off the GDB for a week or two,' please feel free.

But it also strikes me that we're conflating different kinds of OOC information. Off the top of my head:

OOC role-playing information available to certain PCs and not other PCs. (Like quests, locations of secret places, etc.). Anyone who shares that sorta thing does damage to the game and other players' enjoyment. I don't think anyone disagrees on that.

OOC role-playing information available to certain players and not other players, regardless of PC. Your Allanaki PC who visited the Labyrinth twice may well know his way around better than my rinthi who lived there for decades, because you played a long-lived rinth-rat last year. This is a different level of OOC information as the above, and one about which I think there can be some disagreement.

OOC code information available to certain players and not to other players. As a newbie, I often don't know what's possible, in the code. The shield vs. arrows things is a pretty good example. My PC is absolutely -certain- that shields block arrows, for the same reason he knows that he can't walk through a wall. But I, being new, have no clue if that's the case in the coded environment. Another example: some players understand how to wear a belt so that a sword can be sheathed in it. Some don't. I asked OOC for help with this. Perhaps I should have found out IC, asked a character and paid some coins or whatever and we could've role-played a belt-tying lesson. But that struck me as the sort of OOC code information that's available on the level of the player, not the character. Maybe I'm wrong about that, far as this game goes. I dunno.

Ah. And I got a PM before I even posted this! So I'm gonna set aside the board for a bit ...

[Rindan]

I think you just have to use your good judgment when it comes to talking about the code.  Some times the code just behaves dumb and people will never know unless you tell them. For instance, the fact that type eq kills your hide makes absolutely zero sense and is not documented.  There is no point in hiding this from players.  When the code doesn't follow reality, it is okay IMO, to explain that it is a little flawed in a certain area.  It is also a-okay to confirm that code DOES work like it is supposed to.  Telling players that shields block arrows isn't letting some big IC piece of information out of the bag.  It is just confirming that, yeah, the code works the way you would expect it, have no fear.

My large pet peeve is people telling who their characters are and spewing crap about plots in game.  Even long dead plots should be left buried.  It is one thing to share that your favorite character was a Kuraci soldier six years ago.  It is another to tell everyone that he is the one that found the defiler sword of d00m.  You are making the really bad assumption that the sword of d00m is gone just because it is six years later.  I know I had a character that is something like 6-8 years dead involved in a plot around an item that showed up years later.  Stuff sticks around and has roots in the past.  Leave those roots be.  Telling about a cool time 5 years ago that you went hunting with this awesome RPer who made everything come alive is one thing.  Telling about the super awesome waterslides owned by Tan Muark that you found is another.  That waterslide could very well still be there (and I hope this isn't too IC and you can just delete it if it is, but that waterslide is actually still is there).

I know personally that I have learned way the hell to much about the Tuluki rebellion from totally OOC sources from people who couldn't keep their mouthes shut about all the bubbly secrets they know.  I am forever tainted with knowledge that I didn't want to know just because someone felt that they need to prove how big their prick is and how much the staff love him to let him be apart of such a plot.

Don't hint at the stuff you know.  Don't tell or even hint at who your character is, if he died, or how he died.  Don't tell me about magiker spells.  Don't tell me the inner workings of an area or a clan.  There are lots of good things to talk about that are open to free discussion like the other thread about the social order of gemmed in Allanak.  We don't need to spew IC information in other ones.

[X-D]

Yet again, I have to agree with Rindan.

I have many PCs all over a year old, many over 5 years, 10 years and more, And even then, cept for I think one maybe two points, I keep the things they knew IC a complete secret...just in case.

I've played, at one time or another every class in the game....would I admit to any of them having any skill not plainly in the docs...Nope.

Hell, I even make new GDB accounts for any PC I have that is clanned...I did not do so 1 time and I regret it to this day.

[Dalmeth]

Don't hint at the stuff you know.  Don't tell or even hint at who your character is, if he died, or how he died.  Don't tell me about magiker spells.  Don't tell me the inner workings of an area or a clan.  There are lots of good things to talk about that are open to free discussion like the other thread about the social order of gemmed in Allanak.  We don't need to spew IC information in other ones.

As an addendum : if it's so supersecret that you have to hint at it to avoid revealing sensitive information, guess what, you're revealing sensitive information!  Don't do it.

[Myrdryn]

I just want to post my agreement with most of what others have already said.

Most of the fun about this game is discovering the 'secrets'.  When I first started, I tried to find out everything I could about everything. I feasted on every little tidbit I could get (I imagine it is probably like that for a lot of players).

When you 'learn things the hard way' (fiding out ICly) it's much more fun than reading about on the forums, hearing about it in a chatroom/IM/APM/some other OOC means.

Just always remember, it's about the journey, not so much the destination.  Enjoy the ride, because once you get there, there is no going back.

[Ourla]

I completely agree with the OP.  For example, I've avoided the temptation of playing a magicker during my year and a half in Armageddon simply because it's too much fun to play characters in awe of magickers.  And it's fun because I don't know jack about the magick system.  Every time one of those wigglers does something, it's new to me ICly and OOCly, and it makes my character's reactions much more realistic.

Flex your willpower muscles.  Just Say No to OOC Info.

As for the argument about your average character knowing or not knowing what's in the helpfiles, I always thought they were there to provide a framework for what a normal Zalanthan's working knowledge of their world would be like.  The more common animals and herbs would logically be common knowledge, if you were from Allanak or Tuluk, just like kids these days -- or even back at the turn of century -- knew what a panda or a pine tree was.

[Simple]

Edit: Ignore this.

[Gimfalisette]

Bumping this because in light of recent conversation on these forums, I think people need a general reminder about the dangers of OOC information-sharing and communication.

[fourTwenty]

<3 Gimf

[musashi]

I was looking at the other thread, and have to save I basically agree with Gimf and fourtwenty.

I think it's ok to use an off-game chat to share random thoughts with someone or chat about OOC stuff while you play; but the instant you start talking about IG things (any IG things, in my opinion ... except perhaps basic command syntax questions) I think you're crossing the line.

The off-line templar example was a very good one. Seems harmless to IM a templar's player and ask them to log on because something is going down ... except that maybe the criminal in question has a gang of buddies that would normally have his back too, but he isn't IM'ing them all and asking them to log in. That case seems like a very cut and dry example of someone using OOC means to gain an IC advantage over someone to me. 

The only way I could see the above example being ok is perhaps if you went OOC for a moment and just asked: Hey, I know a templar player who's on AIM right now, would it be ok if I asked him to log in? And they said sure!

But you know honestly, even then I think I'd only be ok with it if you were asking the person whose character is going to be negatively affected (and we don't always have a chance to do that).

I mean to say ... asking a guy who got something stolen from him if it's ok to call your templar friend ooc'ly ... not ok, you should be asking the guy who stole since that's probably who the templar is going to log in and fry.

Just my 2 sids on the topic.

[The7DeadlyVenomz]

More people need to idle more instead of logging out. Respond to ways and such things, idle in private so nobody sees you idling. If you are at your keyboard, and if you would respond to a IM saying 'You oughta log in', then idle, and forgo the IM.

Then folks can reach you, staff can get hold of you, and lots of things can happen. I can't count the number of times when idling allowed me to be involved in some cool things.

Just don't idle where anyone can notice you are idling. We have apartments, rooftops, barracks, offices, estates ... idle there.

[Thunkkin]

More people need to idle more instead of logging out. Respond to ways and such things, idle in private so nobody sees you idling. If you are at your keyboard, and if you would respond to a IM saying 'You oughta log in', then idle, and forgo the IM.

Then folks can reach you, staff can get hold of you, and lots of things can happen. I can't count the number of times when idling allowed me to be involved in some cool things.

Just don't idle where anyone can notice you are idling. We have apartments, rooftops, barracks, offices, estates ... idle there.

Not to derail too much, but ...

I always feel vaguely guilty idling and I assumed that idling would staff since when I'm idling, I'm not out doing the tasks and duties that my character would normally do.  Maybe it's just the clan that I'm in, but I'm definitely supposed to be at point A or doing B at most times of the day and so idling has never struck me as an option.  The info page on karma talks about how characters are supposed to adhere (unless they have a valid reason) to their clan rules and idling always seemed like breaking the rules to me.  Am I wrong on this?

[Tisiphone]

More people need to idle more instead of logging out. Respond to ways and such things, idle in private so nobody sees you idling. If you are at your keyboard, and if you would respond to a IM saying 'You oughta log in', then idle, and forgo the IM.

Then folks can reach you, staff can get hold of you, and lots of things can happen. I can't count the number of times when idling allowed me to be involved in some cool things.

Just don't idle where anyone can notice you are idling. We have apartments, rooftops, barracks, offices, estates ... idle there.

Not to derail too much, but ...

I always feel vaguely guilty idling and I assumed that idling would staff since when I'm idling, I'm not out doing the tasks and duties that my character would normally do.  Maybe it's just the clan that I'm in, but I'm definitely supposed to be at point A or doing B at most times of the day and so idling has never struck me as an option.  The info page on karma talks about how characters are supposed to adhere (unless they have a valid reason) to their clan rules and idling always seemed like breaking the rules to me.  Am I wrong on this?

It totally depends on your IC situation.

[staggerlee]

I'm fairly sure staff policy is that idling is fine.
If I was your sergeant I might bust your ass for sleeping when you should be in training or some such though.

Personally I find it distasteful... a lot more can be done by an active player staying busy and interacting with the world than a player watching a movie with the game minimized. Either play or don't.

Besides, it's damn unfortunate to stealthily follow someone home and find out that as soon as they're alone they shut down like a robot, it breaks immersion and kills all kinds of potential rp opportunities.

[The7DeadlyVenomz]

It depends, but if you are a leader, more than likely, you don't really have a schedule you have to follow, and therefore, you have the ability to idle a bit. At least, it's seemed that way in my cases.

I can't recommend anything, frankly, but it's worked out for me. Idling, IF YOU ARE ALERT, frees you from having to be at your keyboard every moment, yet can alert you to events you could be part of, hires you could do, contacts trying to reach you, etc, etc. I can't say that I am telling you to do it, officially, but it helps move things along, and helps PCs not miss you so much, and helps staff move plots along because you are actually there.

[Malken]

I often idle 80% of my work time during the day, if you think I'm going to be active and playing Armageddon 100% of the time I'm supposed to be working, you're quite wrong.

If you contact me via the way while I'm supposed to be working and require my attention for a few minutes, then chances are that I'll be more than happy to meet you somewhere.

Huh, I don't know what this thread is about, sorry.

[The7DeadlyVenomz]

...it's damn unfortunate to stealthily follow someone home and find out that as soon as they're alone they shut down like a robot, it breaks immersion and kills all kinds of potential rp opportunities.

I frankly find the concept of a mundane following a PC into a room that is private distasteful, too .. but let's not go into that. I can't help everyone. I'm around my computer. Feel free to do something. If my bar flashes, I'll be there to 'interact' with you.

My point is that there's no need to miss something because you were not online, and there is no need to be alerted OOC, because you are in the game. Just don't do it if you are not paying attention. Idling because you are playing a video game in the next room's a bad idea. Idling because you're working on your school paper on the computer is not.

[Malken]

Besides, it's damn unfortunate to stealthily follow someone home and find out that as soon as they're alone they shut down like a robot, it breaks immersion and kills all kinds of potential rp opportunities.

And the fact that you can't find my character's mind for three days in a row because I'm not logged in, even though my character would be there and available, ICly, doesn't break your 'immersion'?

[musashi]

Maybe Staggerlee means going AFK for a prolonged period of time is distasteful?

I don't like that either personally, but in my opinion, so long as you're at your computer, why not check your email/surf the net/watch a movie with the game minimized if nothing interesting is going on?

You're still there to hop back onto the mud screen if your icon bar flashes so it's not like you're acting like an unanimated mob or anything. Also as a tip ... we can change our ldesc so ... if you're going to idle in your PC's office for a bit ... so long as you change your description to something like "the funny little man sits at his desk, filling out some paperwork." then I, as a stealthy PC that for whatever reason followed you into your office, would not perceive you as shutting down like a robot behind closed doors.

Again though, that's contingient on me being able to jump out and say Boo, and have you react. If you're going to be AFK ... and it's not going to be forever, then "the funny little man sits at his desk, filling out some paperwork. (AFK)" suits me just fine.

Just my opinion though.

And I vastly prefer that ... to logging out and relying on people IM'ing you when something interesting happens.

[Tisiphone]

Hey guys. That wonder and mystery sure takes a hit when you idle around.

Just to reiterate some of what was said earlier in the thread, we (all of us) need to be careful with IC info. On the boards, and off. I'm as guilty of this as the next person, but the whole experiment frays at the edges just a little bit when I make a new character who remembers the information I gained with my last one, or when I post on the GDB giving an oblique hint to how magickers get their powers. Even something so simple as, for example, mentioning that magickers need their hands free to cast spells (don't take that for granted, by the way!).

Seems harmless, doesn't it? But maybe someone else hadn't actually seen it in action, or thought it all the way through, and now they've been hit in the face with something they didn't need to know from me. Even IC, this can be jarring when the propagation of knowledge is wide and constant enough. Even if plausible in individual cases, does everyone in the Known World -really- know, say, the difference between the kinds of spice? That sort of information creep can break the game.

Now, that's not to say that sometimes it shouldn't happen. We were all newbies once, not even knowing how well we'd stand up against a scrab, or what a tembo was. As time progressed, we players got a little more knowledge of the game world, and our characters became both broader and more believable as denizens of this place where they've lived all their lives. There is a limit, though. We need to find that limit and stick to it, be aware of it, and conscious of how we measure up to it, for every single character, because every single character is different. The only advice I can give is, the further away from the docs and the mundane, the more wary you should be of transporting that knowledge across characters. Who knows? After a long enough time, you might forget it, and then the joy of rediscovery can come back.

This all goes double for spreading wrong information. I've noticed that there are quite a lot of "facts" about this game in the noosphere that are subtly (or not so subtly) off. This is almost worse than if they were correct, because in almost every single circumstance, these mistaken perceptions limit the game's capabilities in the minds of the players quite a bit more than the game is actually limited, and many go unquestioned. Examples include (but are not limited to) thinking that race/group X is all NPCs and so therefore any conflict with them is flat characterization or motivation-wise, ideas about what magickers can do, and assumptions about the history or structure of the game-world.

These are even more harmful when propagated (especially OOCly, and oftentimes unthinkingly - when a debate about magickers comes up, everyone seems to have an idea how how magick works and the theory behind it) because they lead to players being jaded. I've carried many around myself, in fact, thinking, "Oh, I know how that works, so that's in its little box inside my head and can be safely avoided/countermanded by doing XYZ, unless the imms jump in to spice things up - and how likely is that to happen on a daily basis?" and when I have the game-world structured so inside my head, I can lose sight of the bigger picture, or be blind to the things I can't see. This directly leads to the death of mystery we're desirous to avoid; not because there's no more to find out, but because I've convinced myself to stop looking.

[musashi]

I agree with the majority of what you wrote Tis, I was just waiting for you to connect it with you very first sentence

Hey guys. That wonder and mystery sure takes a hit when you idle around.

and never saw the connection. Maybe I missed it, but it didn't seem like being idle when you're logged in was ever touched on again.

[Tisiphone]

I agree with the majority of what you wrote Tis, I was just waiting for you to connect it with you very first sentence

Hey guys. That wonder and mystery sure takes a hit when you idle around.

and never saw the connection. Maybe I missed it, but it didn't seem like being idle when you're logged in was ever touched on again.

That sentence was just to move us off of what we were talking about back to the main thrust of the thread.

[staggerlee]

I agree with the majority of what you wrote Tis, I was just waiting for you to connect it with you very first sentence

Hey guys. That wonder and mystery sure takes a hit when you idle around.

and never saw the connection. Maybe I missed it, but it didn't seem like being idle when you're logged in was ever touched on again.

That sentence was just to move us off of what we were talking about back to the main thrust of the thread.

For me it does though... the world feels fake, and immersion feels broken when pcs turn into objects.

Maybe Staggerlee means going AFK for a prolonged period of time is distasteful?

However... this is a fair point. If I never know you're idling, then it's not so much an issue.  I'm not entirely satisfied with the assumption inherent in it though, as there are more than a few ways to observe without being observed.  If we're supposed to shut off when we're not observed, why is there a think command?  Or hemote? Or feel?

I'm loathe to disagree with 7DV, he's a pretty kick ass player and well accustomed to playing clan leaders... being online even when you're not really playing shows a lot of responsibility.  Good on you, I think that even idling like that would kill immersion for me, but some obviously consider it to be a  necessary evil.

On the topic of knowledge:  I learned about poisons ic, when they were explained to me by a clan leader. At the time I was delighted, and as it had never occured to me to type 'help poison' I hadn't realized everything I was learning was documented. I felt like my rp had been enormously productive and that I'd walked away with a secret.  It was all around satisfying and provided rp opportunities.  Part of the trick I suspect is remembering to keep that ic and ooc knowledge separate, even though I now know about poison, asking future clan leaders on future characters to explain it to me could turn into an rp opportunity, and while it may never be as exciting again, separating that knowledge does help keep the world alive.

And that is why I'm upset that I learned that @#&(*&(*&@ existed as a race, that #(*))*()(* can $(*)*())(*)(* and any number of other little things I picked up on the gdb.

[fourTwenty]

OOC cliques exist in Arm. OOC communications happen and the players that do it don't care. OOC bullshit DOES affect IG actions.

This is the kinda shit that drove me away from the last RPI I enjoyed and I'm rapidly becoming disenchanted with this one.

I really like the reason this thread was started, but I mean there are even people defending their OOC communication habits. Last I checked you weren't even really suppose to know who the player behind the PC is(or at least be mature enough to ignore it).

Far from even preserving wonder and mystery I would like to see the sanctity of the game preserved.

From what I've gleaned this has been a problem before long in the past. (Before my time)

I already know some GREAT players, actual RP'ers, not just people who give it lip service, that have left due to OOC bullshit. This sucks.

I can only speak for myself but I'm starting to get that sick feeling that "OOC Bull"(for lack of a better term) is on the upturn.

I kept this post intentionally short and concise because I don't want it to be a rant. I feel these points are important.

I am sad.

[The7DeadlyVenomz]

I am sad.

I'm sad too, mainly because people severely over-estimate the number of cliques. I'd never argue about OOC communication being an issue, but the OOC clique bit is nearly entirely the conception of paranoid players who feel that anyone aligned against them are in a clique. WHo feel that everyone who plays Desert Elves are in an OOC clique, etc, etc.

I wish they were not so paranoid that they cared.

Also, Staggerlee, I appreciate the fact that you think I'm an okay leader, but you don't have to agree with me. Heh. We've all got different views.

[fourTwenty]

I am sad.

I'm sad too, mainly because people severely over-estimate the number of cliques.... but the OOC clique bit is nearly entirely the conception of paranoid players who feel that anyone aligned against them are in a clique.

Has nothing to do with being paranoid. I've -seen- it. And even 1 is to many.

I see this all the time, "I knew this, that, and thet character, they were badass." "And your character, GDB_name, was fucking sweet also." That IMHO, happens way too much. When that happens, I've noticed you'll see the same group of people in the same clans on different occasions, or their PCs will be in the same social circle. Since the players know each other, the players don't want to do anything IC that would totally ruin the other character, even if it is IC. That is one of my biggest peeves.

[The7DeadlyVenomz]

Oh well. Worrying about everyone else is not going to help you make yourself better. Seriously. That's the point I am trying to make. I understand the concern, but when other people's 'cliques' and 'ooc communication' makes you stop playing the game, I just can't sympathize. Avoid those people and do something else somewhere else in the game.

That's what I do, and I've managed to have a pretty damned great RP experience over my 10 years.

[a strange shadow]

7DV, I had fun being your minion while you played a certain stern old white-skinned asskicker.

Don't be too hard on yourself.

[The7DeadlyVenomz]

Thanks.

Odd you haven't joined my 'clique'.

*grin*

I'm sorry, 420. I had to do that. I had to.

[fourTwenty]

Quite alright, 7DV, I thought it was funny as well.

[Malken]

Sometimes I feel like you need to have your own OOC clique to 'protect' yourself against other OOC cliques.

I'm not going to talk more about AIM and chatting with other players, though, because I feel like you're all waiting for someone to admit he or she's chatting with others to gang up on him in this thread,
even if I'm willing to bet that at least 80% of the players on Arm is in contact with at least another one in one way or another.

This is the feel good thread of 2008.

[musashi]

Maybe I'm playing in the wrong (or right) areas.

I've never really experienced the OOC social circles thing.

[Malken]

I think some big deal is being made about it.. It's not a matter of where you play or whatever.. Some people just enjoy playing together, it doesn't mean you'll snob anyone else that comes along.

It becomes a problem when you start using your AIM contacts to assassinate others or cheat the game, but again, I don't encounter that very often myself.

If you want someone guilty of having friends on Arm who I like to talk with about the game and things that totally don't matter in the grand scheme of things, then take your shot at me, I'll be that victim.

Then the rest of the playerbase can all pretend that they don't talk to each others outside the game and the mob shall be satisfied.

[Lizzie]

I have a couple of players on my buddy list, but I didn't even -have- a buddy list til a few months ago and I've been playing for a few years now. And sure, sometimes we talk about stuff - but I'm not the one complaining about the ooc cliques ruining anything for anyone either, or about being tired of the same old same old and not experiencing the "rush" of a newbie or the danger and excitement we all felt before we started adding names to our contact lists, or played a dozen characters and learned every square inch of the wastes.

I have "access" to the same information everyone else has access to, and I have knowledge of various aspects of the game that plenty of veterans have...and I STILL find it a rush to pass the same spots over and over again, with every single one of my characters. Even though I know *exactly* what to expect when I get there.

[musashi]

Seriously, I think that it's silly to expect Arm players to never talk to one another outside of the game, when we encourage Arm players to meet with one another via APM's and what have you. I don't have problem with people having other Arm players in their IM contact lists and chatting them up. That's totally cool! Really 

I just hope that people have the control to refrain from IM'ing something like: Oh man hurry up and log in! My guy fell in a whole and I think these desert elves are gonna kill him! I'm seven rooms west of the big statue!

We can probably all agree that is pretty twinkish and an abuse of OOC communication right? It's probably STILL twinkish even if the person just IM's: Hey log in real quick!

And /then/ proceeds to say the rest of that over the Way, right?

So, to reference back to the discussion that was going on in the Random Arm Thoughts thread, I think that IM'ing something like: Hey, can you log your Templar in?

Is basically the same thing, and just as bad. Because as soon as the templar logs in, the player is going to way them, and spill the beans about whatever.

Not doing things like that goes towards preserving the wonder of the game, to me.

[Malken]

There's probably a shitload more IC infos being passed around in -1- APM after everyone had a few drinks than an entire year of AIM gossips amongst the entire playerbase.

[The7DeadlyVenomz]

Ha.

Actually, having been to an APM, I disagree with -that- particular thought. Of course the game was spoken about, but for the most part, we didn't talk about the game. I was shocked at the number of things we talked about other than the game.

[Malken]

Ha.

Actually, having been to an APM, I disagree with -that- particular thought. Of course the game was spoken about, but for the most part, we didn't talk about the game. I was shocked at the number of things we talked about other than the game.

The Dragoncon ones don't count, they're being 'chaperoned' by the presence of Staff 

[The7DeadlyVenomz]

Oh. Eh. I really doubt that had anything to do with it. I never once considered any of the staff there as ... well, staff. They were just people. They contributed to the chatter as much as everyone else did.

[Riev]

I think there may be different types of OOC information, just like different types of IC information.

[fourTwenty]

Seriously, I think that it's silly to expect Arm players to never talk to one another outside of the game, when we encourage Arm players to meet with one another via APM's and what have you. I don't have problem with people having other Arm players in their IM contact lists and chatting them up. That's totally cool! Really 

I just hope that people have the control to refrain from IM'ing something like: Oh man hurry up and log in! My guy fell in a whole and I think these desert elves are gonna kill him! I'm seven rooms west of the big statue!

We can sprobably all agree that is pretty twinkish and an outright abuse of OOC communication right? It's probably STILL twinkishabuse even if the person just IM's: Hey log in real quick!

And /then/ proceeds to say the rest of that over the Way, right?

So, to reference back to the discussion that was going on in the Random Arm Thoughts thread, I think that IM'ing something like: Hey, can you log your Templar in?

Is basically the same thing, and just as bad. Because as soon as the templar logs in, the player is going to way them, and spill the beans about whatever.

Not doing things like that goes towards preserving the wonder of the game, to me.

This is what I'm trying to say. I don't think you shouldn't make friends and talk about how much you like the game. But not while you're playing the game. I think people should still follow the one year thing. I really don't trust the playerbase this much anymore. I used to. I might could again. But shit happens, and has happened, that makes me think everybody's got the "It's them not me, what I'm doing is okay" attitude.

[Fathi]

I am sad.

I'm sad too, mainly because people severely over-estimate the number of cliques.... but the OOC clique bit is nearly entirely the conception of paranoid players who feel that anyone aligned against them are in a clique.

Has nothing to do with being paranoid. I've -seen- it. And even 1 is to many.

I see this all the time, "I knew this, that, and thet character, they were badass." "And your character, GDB_name, was fucking sweet also." That IMHO, happens way too much. When that happens, I've noticed you'll see the same group of people in the same clans on different occasions, or their PCs will be in the same social circle. Since the players know each other, the players don't want to do anything IC that would totally ruin the other character, even if it is IC. That is one of my biggest peeves.

The problem with the bolded part is that, in my opinion, it's an unfair assumption made on a player's part to automatically decide that people who play together often are doing it because they all know each other out of character and are intentionally trying to stick together as a group.

There are a lot of situations I've encountered where I've ended up playing with the same people (one guy in three clans in a row, even) when they're somebody I've never spoken to and don't 'know' at all. As an off-peak player, I am of the opinion that a lot of it is playtimes and availability--if there are only five or six people logged in during most of the time that you play, chances are you're going to run into the same people on multiple characters and multiple characters of theirs just because it's a lot harder to avoid it.

You also have to take PC longevity into account: Bill the templar and Ted the soldier played together in Kadius a bit ago, okay. The probability that Bill will hire one of Ted's characters goes up the longer Bill lives and the more characters Ted goes through, provided Ted has an interest in playing in a militia. Then somebody else who was in Kadius recently enough to have seen their forum posts joins the AoD and sees both Bill and Ted on the roll-call thread.

I'm not saying that this excuses every single instance of people playing together or that OOC groups don't exist, but with a playerbase as small as ours, random encounters happen a -lot- more than you'd think. Thinking that OOC collusion is rampant enough to destroy your interest in the game is your  own business, but if you imagine it's happening that much, I think you're assuming a lot of unfair things about a lot of innocent players.

[tortall]

Ok, this is, no, it's NOT good to go around telling people stuff oocly that they should learn icly.

But, given that, if someone DOES tell you something, and you're not smart enough to keep it OUT OF YOUR CHARACTERS KNOWLEDGE, then how the heck do you expect to keep what you learned ICLY from a previous character, out of the mind of your currently character? If you can't do the former, then the latter is also a problem. Since people died on Arm ALL THE TIME, you will continue to have said problem.

[AmandaGreathouse]

Ok, this is, no, it's NOT good to go around telling people stuff oocly that they should learn icly.

But, given that, if someone DOES tell you something, and you're not smart enough to keep it OUT OF YOUR CHARACTERS KNOWLEDGE, then how the heck do you expect to keep what you learned ICLY from a previous character, out of the mind of your currently character? If you can't do the former, then the latter is also a problem. Since people died on Arm ALL THE TIME, you will continue to have said problem.

This.... -all-.... day.... long. Both ways!

[FantasyWriter]

Ok, this is, no, it's NOT good to go around telling people stuff oocly that they should learn icly.

But, given that, if someone DOES tell you something, and you're not smart enough to keep it OUT OF YOUR CHARACTERS KNOWLEDGE, then how the heck do you expect to keep what you learned ICLY from a previous character, out of the mind of your currently character? If you can't do the former, then the latter is also a problem. Since people died on Arm ALL THE TIME, you will continue to have said problem.

This.... -all-.... day.... long. Both ways!

Agreed, we can argue about IC knowledge all day, but we have an 'abusive' amount of IC knowledge every time we roll up another character.
What we do or do not choose for out character to know is up to us as the player.


A. (IC knowledge from yourself):
I have found at least three places in the wild, that made me so witless I couldn't even put together a coherent though for my PC to think about it for over ten minutes.
None of which have i visited again, except for one that I was led to buy another player during a clan RPT.
I have had dirty IC secrets about PCs that I leaned from a previous PC that I could have exploited to take advantage of them of even gotten them killed.
I have seen PCs that killed one of my previous PCs, and knew I could take them.

I can honestly say that I never exploited IC knowledge from one PC to the next. (other than world knowledge that i wrote into the background)

B. (IC knowledge from one player to another):
Have I told people I trusted about something super-spectacular that I saw or experience before? Yes.
Have I been told things like this by people who trusted me? Yes.
Did we ask the other persons consent before telling them any thing? Yes.
Was the game or playerbase hurt by this in anyway? No.. If so, I don't see how.

C. PCs played by staff members:
They have access (AFAIK) to almost all available information about the game world, and I have no knowledge of them abusing this information through their PCs in the recent past. (since I have been playing, at least)

I honestly don't see the difference between the three.

[tortall]

Awesome stuff.

Exactly. So, is there still a problem?

[The7DeadlyVenomz]

Awesome stuff.

Exactly. So, is there still a problem?

Some people will never be happy. I frankly believe that people are not as evil as we like to think they are. Everybody in this game knows something they shouldn't. It's impossible in a game where you live multiple lives not to. And yet somehow, we all manage to produce pretty good results.

I'd advise less worry and more play. Nobody will ever be constantly happy, but I'll bet they could be happier.

[Malken]

The only difference between those who uses AIM and those who don't is the amount of drama and bs you'll have to put up with in the end 

[Riev]

The only difference between those who uses AIM and those who don't is the amount of drama and bs you'll have to put up with in the end 

Well, if you -do- use AIM, then a lot of plots going on around the world might be sort of "Oh, I've seen that before, I know whats going on." I suppose.

I use AIM as my own personal APM. Hearing stories of old characters, hearing about cool things they did or said. Sometimes it spills into current characters. For instance, [Character] totally went the wrong way in [Place] and had to fight like six [Creature] and -lived- to tell people back in [city] about it.

[KIA]

I'm enjoying speaking to neither immortals nor other players (as much as that is possible). I used to chat on IRC a little, as Cleric of Nilaz, or on the GDB as Yang or even IMs, and I've built some very strong RL friendships because of Armageddon. These friendships and interactions usually only enriched the game for me. But now, nearly 15 years after beginning to play (I was only 14 then, now going on 29!) I am at last able to find enjoyment in this game in the spirit it was meant to be.

My knowledge of the game is not even remotely complete, even after all that time, so there is still plenty of wonder and mystery. The best part of that is though, I can sometimes play characters who perpetuate that wonder and mystery and bring the game world to life for other players and their beautiful characters, without really needing to reveal my identity or exploits at all. It's very much 'the zone' and I'm thankful for this amazing multiplayer world to escape into when the wonder and mystery of real life isn't so appealing.

KIA

[The7DeadlyVenomz]

I'm enjoying speaking to neither immortals nor other players (as much as that is possible). I used to chat on IRC a little, as Cleric of Nilaz, or on the GDB as Yang or even IMs, and I've built some very strong RL friendships because of Armageddon. These friendships and interactions usually only enriched the game for me. But now, nearly 15 years after beginning to play (I was only 14 then, now going on 29!) I am at last able to find enjoyment in this game in the spirit it was meant to be.

My knowledge of the game is not even remotely complete, even after all that time, so there is still plenty of wonder and mystery. The best part of that is though, I can sometimes play characters who perpetuate that wonder and mystery and bring the game world to life for other players and their beautiful characters, without really needing to reveal my identity or exploits at all. It's very much 'the zone' and I'm thankful for this amazing multiplayer world to escape into when the wonder and mystery of real life isn't so appealing.

KIA

Nothing wrong with that at all.

[Reiloth]

I'm enjoying speaking to neither immortals nor other players (as much as that is possible). I used to chat on IRC a little, as Cleric of Nilaz, or on the GDB as Yang or even IMs, and I've built some very strong RL friendships because of Armageddon. These friendships and interactions usually only enriched the game for me. But now, nearly 15 years after beginning to play (I was only 14 then, now going on 29!) I am at last able to find enjoyment in this game in the spirit it was meant to be.

My knowledge of the game is not even remotely complete, even after all that time, so there is still plenty of wonder and mystery. The best part of that is though, I can sometimes play characters who perpetuate that wonder and mystery and bring the game world to life for other players and their beautiful characters, without really needing to reveal my identity or exploits at all. It's very much 'the zone' and I'm thankful for this amazing multiplayer world to escape into when the wonder and mystery of real life isn't so appealing.

KIA

Hey man.

Glad you're still playing.