Preserving the Wonder and Mystery

[mansa]

I blame ShaLeah and the growing popularity of ArmageddonMUD in 2001.

[X-D]

It seems to you because maybe you think that way.

Again, the key words to that post are "No Reply".

I don't even care if somebody comes up with an automatic form letter that replies, "Mail read"

As long as you KNOW it has not been lost in the shuffle, Which staff admits does happen from time to time then you also know that it is being looked into or that staff has seen it and decided to Not look into it, either of which is fine and up to them.

I know staff is busy, but for this reason and many others, reply email is important.

Nobody is saying OMG THEY ARE NOT FIXING IT RIGHT NOW GO LAY EVERYTHING OUT ON THE GDB!!!!!

Also, many things I think SHOULD be talked about on the GDB before they go in...True, I know that if staff wants it, no amount of complaining by the players is going to change that. But discussing it helps as well. And its not like you can talk about code IG really.

Hell, we even have a code discussion forum.

BTW, staff has been quite on the ball IG, I typo'd something today and it was fixed like 2 minutes later. Grins.

I really do understand, and to some extent agree with those that are worried about IG information on an OOC forum. I just do not agree where many of the same people think this line is. Or, even when I do I think you take it WAY to far.

Should I ask about where the stables are in the super sekrit smurf village...No, and even if I do, should somebody answer it...no. And of course you should be pissed off that I gave out the information of the super sekrit smurf village.

But if Amos asks where the stables are in allanak, thats not nearly so bad, sure, you might not know allanak has a stable and be annoyed that the person asked, but at the same time, its not IC info. Now, should somebody answer that question here...again, maybe not. The answer should of course be, wish up, ask IG or email or ask a helper.

But when it comes to code, if its in a general help file that any body can and IMO SHOULD have read. Leave it alone.


Meh, I'm rambling.

[jstorrie]

I just think that revealing IC info on the GDB is a lousy way of motivating staff to get things done, or motivating them in general.

Yes. Agreed. But a code problem–say, the recent 'poisons don't work with throw' bug, which was just fixed–is not an IC issue. It's not reasonable for your character to 'know' that 'something has changed in the laws of physics and poisoned blades no longer deliver poison properly when thrown.' But conversely it could be very important for you, as a player, to know that that ability of your PC is currently bugged and nonfunctional. Ditto with typos, desc change requests, reimbursements, crashes, etc. These are not in-character issues.

[Rarsh]

I'm a bit hesitant to jump in, because I'm starting to think that my contribution to the GDB conversation has been, shall we say, more of a withdrawal. If anyone feels that's the case, and wants to PM me with a 'yeah, you might wanna lay off the GDB for a week or two,' please feel free.

But it also strikes me that we're conflating different kinds of OOC information. Off the top of my head:

OOC role-playing information available to certain PCs and not other PCs. (Like quests, locations of secret places, etc.). Anyone who shares that sorta thing does damage to the game and other players' enjoyment. I don't think anyone disagrees on that.

OOC role-playing information available to certain players and not other players, regardless of PC. Your Allanaki PC who visited the Labyrinth twice may well know his way around better than my rinthi who lived there for decades, because you played a long-lived rinth-rat last year. This is a different level of OOC information as the above, and one about which I think there can be some disagreement.

OOC code information available to certain players and not to other players. As a newbie, I often don't know what's possible, in the code. The shield vs. arrows things is a pretty good example. My PC is absolutely -certain- that shields block arrows, for the same reason he knows that he can't walk through a wall. But I, being new, have no clue if that's the case in the coded environment. Another example: some players understand how to wear a belt so that a sword can be sheathed in it. Some don't. I asked OOC for help with this. Perhaps I should have found out IC, asked a character and paid some coins or whatever and we could've role-played a belt-tying lesson. But that struck me as the sort of OOC code information that's available on the level of the player, not the character. Maybe I'm wrong about that, far as this game goes. I dunno.

Ah. And I got a PM before I even posted this! So I'm gonna set aside the board for a bit ...

[Rindan]

I think you just have to use your good judgment when it comes to talking about the code.  Some times the code just behaves dumb and people will never know unless you tell them. For instance, the fact that type eq kills your hide makes absolutely zero sense and is not documented.  There is no point in hiding this from players.  When the code doesn't follow reality, it is okay IMO, to explain that it is a little flawed in a certain area.  It is also a-okay to confirm that code DOES work like it is supposed to.  Telling players that shields block arrows isn't letting some big IC piece of information out of the bag.  It is just confirming that, yeah, the code works the way you would expect it, have no fear.

My large pet peeve is people telling who their characters are and spewing crap about plots in game.  Even long dead plots should be left buried.  It is one thing to share that your favorite character was a Kuraci soldier six years ago.  It is another to tell everyone that he is the one that found the defiler sword of d00m.  You are making the really bad assumption that the sword of d00m is gone just because it is six years later.  I know I had a character that is something like 6-8 years dead involved in a plot around an item that showed up years later.  Stuff sticks around and has roots in the past.  Leave those roots be.  Telling about a cool time 5 years ago that you went hunting with this awesome RPer who made everything come alive is one thing.  Telling about the super awesome waterslides owned by Tan Muark that you found is another.  That waterslide could very well still be there (and I hope this isn't too IC and you can just delete it if it is, but that waterslide is actually still is there).

I know personally that I have learned way the hell to much about the Tuluki rebellion from totally OOC sources from people who couldn't keep their mouthes shut about all the bubbly secrets they know.  I am forever tainted with knowledge that I didn't want to know just because someone felt that they need to prove how big their prick is and how much the staff love him to let him be apart of such a plot.

Don't hint at the stuff you know.  Don't tell or even hint at who your character is, if he died, or how he died.  Don't tell me about magiker spells.  Don't tell me the inner workings of an area or a clan.  There are lots of good things to talk about that are open to free discussion like the other thread about the social order of gemmed in Allanak.  We don't need to spew IC information in other ones.

[X-D]

Yet again, I have to agree with Rindan.

I have many PCs all over a year old, many over 5 years, 10 years and more, And even then, cept for I think one maybe two points, I keep the things they knew IC a complete secret...just in case.

I've played, at one time or another every class in the game....would I admit to any of them having any skill not plainly in the docs...Nope.

Hell, I even make new GDB accounts for any PC I have that is clanned...I did not do so 1 time and I regret it to this day.

[Dalmeth]

Don't hint at the stuff you know.  Don't tell or even hint at who your character is, if he died, or how he died.  Don't tell me about magiker spells.  Don't tell me the inner workings of an area or a clan.  There are lots of good things to talk about that are open to free discussion like the other thread about the social order of gemmed in Allanak.  We don't need to spew IC information in other ones.

As an addendum : if it's so supersecret that you have to hint at it to avoid revealing sensitive information, guess what, you're revealing sensitive information!  Don't do it.

[Myrdryn]

I just want to post my agreement with most of what others have already said.

Most of the fun about this game is discovering the 'secrets'.  When I first started, I tried to find out everything I could about everything. I feasted on every little tidbit I could get (I imagine it is probably like that for a lot of players).

When you 'learn things the hard way' (fiding out ICly) it's much more fun than reading about on the forums, hearing about it in a chatroom/IM/APM/some other OOC means.

Just always remember, it's about the journey, not so much the destination.  Enjoy the ride, because once you get there, there is no going back.

[Ourla]

I completely agree with the OP.  For example, I've avoided the temptation of playing a magicker during my year and a half in Armageddon simply because it's too much fun to play characters in awe of magickers.  And it's fun because I don't know jack about the magick system.  Every time one of those wigglers does something, it's new to me ICly and OOCly, and it makes my character's reactions much more realistic.

Flex your willpower muscles.  Just Say No to OOC Info.

As for the argument about your average character knowing or not knowing what's in the helpfiles, I always thought they were there to provide a framework for what a normal Zalanthan's working knowledge of their world would be like.  The more common animals and herbs would logically be common knowledge, if you were from Allanak or Tuluk, just like kids these days -- or even back at the turn of century -- knew what a panda or a pine tree was.

[Simple]

Edit: Ignore this.

[Gimfalisette]

Bumping this because in light of recent conversation on these forums, I think people need a general reminder about the dangers of OOC information-sharing and communication.

[fourTwenty]

<3 Gimf

[musashi]

I was looking at the other thread, and have to save I basically agree with Gimf and fourtwenty.

I think it's ok to use an off-game chat to share random thoughts with someone or chat about OOC stuff while you play; but the instant you start talking about IG things (any IG things, in my opinion ... except perhaps basic command syntax questions) I think you're crossing the line.

The off-line templar example was a very good one. Seems harmless to IM a templar's player and ask them to log on because something is going down ... except that maybe the criminal in question has a gang of buddies that would normally have his back too, but he isn't IM'ing them all and asking them to log in. That case seems like a very cut and dry example of someone using OOC means to gain an IC advantage over someone to me. 

The only way I could see the above example being ok is perhaps if you went OOC for a moment and just asked: Hey, I know a templar player who's on AIM right now, would it be ok if I asked him to log in? And they said sure!

But you know honestly, even then I think I'd only be ok with it if you were asking the person whose character is going to be negatively affected (and we don't always have a chance to do that).

I mean to say ... asking a guy who got something stolen from him if it's ok to call your templar friend ooc'ly ... not ok, you should be asking the guy who stole since that's probably who the templar is going to log in and fry.

Just my 2 sids on the topic.

[The7DeadlyVenomz]

More people need to idle more instead of logging out. Respond to ways and such things, idle in private so nobody sees you idling. If you are at your keyboard, and if you would respond to a IM saying 'You oughta log in', then idle, and forgo the IM.

Then folks can reach you, staff can get hold of you, and lots of things can happen. I can't count the number of times when idling allowed me to be involved in some cool things.

Just don't idle where anyone can notice you are idling. We have apartments, rooftops, barracks, offices, estates ... idle there.

[Thunkkin]

More people need to idle more instead of logging out. Respond to ways and such things, idle in private so nobody sees you idling. If you are at your keyboard, and if you would respond to a IM saying 'You oughta log in', then idle, and forgo the IM.

Then folks can reach you, staff can get hold of you, and lots of things can happen. I can't count the number of times when idling allowed me to be involved in some cool things.

Just don't idle where anyone can notice you are idling. We have apartments, rooftops, barracks, offices, estates ... idle there.

Not to derail too much, but ...

I always feel vaguely guilty idling and I assumed that idling would staff since when I'm idling, I'm not out doing the tasks and duties that my character would normally do.  Maybe it's just the clan that I'm in, but I'm definitely supposed to be at point A or doing B at most times of the day and so idling has never struck me as an option.  The info page on karma talks about how characters are supposed to adhere (unless they have a valid reason) to their clan rules and idling always seemed like breaking the rules to me.  Am I wrong on this?

[Tisiphone]

More people need to idle more instead of logging out. Respond to ways and such things, idle in private so nobody sees you idling. If you are at your keyboard, and if you would respond to a IM saying 'You oughta log in', then idle, and forgo the IM.

Then folks can reach you, staff can get hold of you, and lots of things can happen. I can't count the number of times when idling allowed me to be involved in some cool things.

Just don't idle where anyone can notice you are idling. We have apartments, rooftops, barracks, offices, estates ... idle there.

Not to derail too much, but ...

I always feel vaguely guilty idling and I assumed that idling would staff since when I'm idling, I'm not out doing the tasks and duties that my character would normally do.  Maybe it's just the clan that I'm in, but I'm definitely supposed to be at point A or doing B at most times of the day and so idling has never struck me as an option.  The info page on karma talks about how characters are supposed to adhere (unless they have a valid reason) to their clan rules and idling always seemed like breaking the rules to me.  Am I wrong on this?

It totally depends on your IC situation.

[staggerlee]

I'm fairly sure staff policy is that idling is fine.
If I was your sergeant I might bust your ass for sleeping when you should be in training or some such though.

Personally I find it distasteful... a lot more can be done by an active player staying busy and interacting with the world than a player watching a movie with the game minimized. Either play or don't.

Besides, it's damn unfortunate to stealthily follow someone home and find out that as soon as they're alone they shut down like a robot, it breaks immersion and kills all kinds of potential rp opportunities.

[The7DeadlyVenomz]

It depends, but if you are a leader, more than likely, you don't really have a schedule you have to follow, and therefore, you have the ability to idle a bit. At least, it's seemed that way in my cases.

I can't recommend anything, frankly, but it's worked out for me. Idling, IF YOU ARE ALERT, frees you from having to be at your keyboard every moment, yet can alert you to events you could be part of, hires you could do, contacts trying to reach you, etc, etc. I can't say that I am telling you to do it, officially, but it helps move things along, and helps PCs not miss you so much, and helps staff move plots along because you are actually there.

[Malken]

I often idle 80% of my work time during the day, if you think I'm going to be active and playing Armageddon 100% of the time I'm supposed to be working, you're quite wrong.

If you contact me via the way while I'm supposed to be working and require my attention for a few minutes, then chances are that I'll be more than happy to meet you somewhere.

Huh, I don't know what this thread is about, sorry.

[The7DeadlyVenomz]

...it's damn unfortunate to stealthily follow someone home and find out that as soon as they're alone they shut down like a robot, it breaks immersion and kills all kinds of potential rp opportunities.

I frankly find the concept of a mundane following a PC into a room that is private distasteful, too .. but let's not go into that. I can't help everyone. I'm around my computer. Feel free to do something. If my bar flashes, I'll be there to 'interact' with you.

My point is that there's no need to miss something because you were not online, and there is no need to be alerted OOC, because you are in the game. Just don't do it if you are not paying attention. Idling because you are playing a video game in the next room's a bad idea. Idling because you're working on your school paper on the computer is not.

[Malken]

Besides, it's damn unfortunate to stealthily follow someone home and find out that as soon as they're alone they shut down like a robot, it breaks immersion and kills all kinds of potential rp opportunities.

And the fact that you can't find my character's mind for three days in a row because I'm not logged in, even though my character would be there and available, ICly, doesn't break your 'immersion'?

[musashi]

Maybe Staggerlee means going AFK for a prolonged period of time is distasteful?

I don't like that either personally, but in my opinion, so long as you're at your computer, why not check your email/surf the net/watch a movie with the game minimized if nothing interesting is going on?

You're still there to hop back onto the mud screen if your icon bar flashes so it's not like you're acting like an unanimated mob or anything. Also as a tip ... we can change our ldesc so ... if you're going to idle in your PC's office for a bit ... so long as you change your description to something like "the funny little man sits at his desk, filling out some paperwork." then I, as a stealthy PC that for whatever reason followed you into your office, would not perceive you as shutting down like a robot behind closed doors.

Again though, that's contingient on me being able to jump out and say Boo, and have you react. If you're going to be AFK ... and it's not going to be forever, then "the funny little man sits at his desk, filling out some paperwork. (AFK)" suits me just fine.

Just my opinion though.

And I vastly prefer that ... to logging out and relying on people IM'ing you when something interesting happens.

[Tisiphone]

Hey guys. That wonder and mystery sure takes a hit when you idle around.

Just to reiterate some of what was said earlier in the thread, we (all of us) need to be careful with IC info. On the boards, and off. I'm as guilty of this as the next person, but the whole experiment frays at the edges just a little bit when I make a new character who remembers the information I gained with my last one, or when I post on the GDB giving an oblique hint to how magickers get their powers. Even something so simple as, for example, mentioning that magickers need their hands free to cast spells (don't take that for granted, by the way!).

Seems harmless, doesn't it? But maybe someone else hadn't actually seen it in action, or thought it all the way through, and now they've been hit in the face with something they didn't need to know from me. Even IC, this can be jarring when the propagation of knowledge is wide and constant enough. Even if plausible in individual cases, does everyone in the Known World -really- know, say, the difference between the kinds of spice? That sort of information creep can break the game.

Now, that's not to say that sometimes it shouldn't happen. We were all newbies once, not even knowing how well we'd stand up against a scrab, or what a tembo was. As time progressed, we players got a little more knowledge of the game world, and our characters became both broader and more believable as denizens of this place where they've lived all their lives. There is a limit, though. We need to find that limit and stick to it, be aware of it, and conscious of how we measure up to it, for every single character, because every single character is different. The only advice I can give is, the further away from the docs and the mundane, the more wary you should be of transporting that knowledge across characters. Who knows? After a long enough time, you might forget it, and then the joy of rediscovery can come back.

This all goes double for spreading wrong information. I've noticed that there are quite a lot of "facts" about this game in the noosphere that are subtly (or not so subtly) off. This is almost worse than if they were correct, because in almost every single circumstance, these mistaken perceptions limit the game's capabilities in the minds of the players quite a bit more than the game is actually limited, and many go unquestioned. Examples include (but are not limited to) thinking that race/group X is all NPCs and so therefore any conflict with them is flat characterization or motivation-wise, ideas about what magickers can do, and assumptions about the history or structure of the game-world.

These are even more harmful when propagated (especially OOCly, and oftentimes unthinkingly - when a debate about magickers comes up, everyone seems to have an idea how how magick works and the theory behind it) because they lead to players being jaded. I've carried many around myself, in fact, thinking, "Oh, I know how that works, so that's in its little box inside my head and can be safely avoided/countermanded by doing XYZ, unless the imms jump in to spice things up - and how likely is that to happen on a daily basis?" and when I have the game-world structured so inside my head, I can lose sight of the bigger picture, or be blind to the things I can't see. This directly leads to the death of mystery we're desirous to avoid; not because there's no more to find out, but because I've convinced myself to stop looking.

[musashi]

I agree with the majority of what you wrote Tis, I was just waiting for you to connect it with you very first sentence

Hey guys. That wonder and mystery sure takes a hit when you idle around.

and never saw the connection. Maybe I missed it, but it didn't seem like being idle when you're logged in was ever touched on again.

[Tisiphone]

I agree with the majority of what you wrote Tis, I was just waiting for you to connect it with you very first sentence

Hey guys. That wonder and mystery sure takes a hit when you idle around.

and never saw the connection. Maybe I missed it, but it didn't seem like being idle when you're logged in was ever touched on again.

That sentence was just to move us off of what we were talking about back to the main thrust of the thread.