This State of Neglect

[Rindan]

2) I can't speak for other people, but I can speak for myself, having read documents about the city governments...my character is likely to keep his mouth shut about any complaints about northerners in the south, because the Templars have decreed that northerners are welcome in the south. Personally, in my character's humble opinion, it's probably not a good idea to question the judgement of a templar out loud, in public. Much healthier to either pretend you don't hear someone else complaining, or pretend to disagree and say "But the Templars say they're A-OK therefore they MUST be A-OK and you should just shut up about it you big meanie-head!"

3) Almost any instance of "going against the grain" when it comes to political situations is probably the result of "Fear of Templars." If you want to treat a gemmer badly while you're in Allanak, go ahead. But my character will probably not risk the ire of the Templarate - which in its collective wisdom not only allows them to exist, but has built them a damned good looking quarter for them to live in.

There is a vast gulf of difference between terror of templars and snuggling up with every single gemmed and northie you run across. 

First, I would prefer people to respond to the terror of Templars when they start instilling terror.  If Templars start decapitating people for getting into a bar fight with a northerner, great, it is time for an attitude adjustment.  On the other hand, if your city has been at war with Tuluk with 2000 fucking years, and been terrified by magikers for since the dawn of time, maybe instant tolerance and love isn't the proper response.

Second, there is a massive gulf of difference between "tolerance" and cuddly love.  Blacks were "tolerated" after the end of slavery.  Jews were "tolerated" in Germany in 1939.  Neo-Nazi's are "tolerated" in the US.  That didn't mean that it was socially okay to go be their friends.  You can be completely intolerant and still be hostile, or at the very least give off bad vibes.  Allanak still has social taboos, even if the Templars have stated that you can't stab northerners for fun and profit in the streets. 

Pissing away a few thousand years of violent hostility in a few years is is silly.  Hell,  half of the fun in Allanak and Tuluk uniting to go do whatever is the fact that the citizens of the respective city states hate each other with a burning passion and work together completely without trust or friendship.  There should a relationship that is fraught with tension and deep unease.  Now, I am not criticizing any plots.  I don't play any knowing part in any of them and so I have no idea what the back room politics is.  What I do see is the bar room politics of it, and it shouldn't be so damn fluffy, especially in Allanak.  In Tuluk you might justify some sort of subtle BS about not displaying too much, but not in Allanak.

Personally, I blame leaders, and to a lesser extent, everyone.  Everyone is responsible for maintaining an atmosphere other than a happy huggy liberal society.  Leaders in particular are responsible for making sure that their underlings don't act like asses in public and bring shame to their own name.  Staff is responsible for smacking people appropriately when things get really out of hand.  Templars are there to put the fear of God King in people.  All the other schmucks should be there to do their own best to keep the game gritty and away from some happy socially liberal democracy.

I personally think more spanking paddles are called for all around.

[Troicha]

2) I can't speak for other people, but I can speak for myself, having read documents about the city governments...my character is likely to keep his mouth shut about any complaints about northerners in the south, because the Templars have decreed that northerners are welcome in the south. Personally, in my character's humble opinion, it's probably not a good idea to question the judgement of a templar out loud, in public. Much healthier to either pretend you don't hear someone else complaining, or pretend to disagree and say "But the Templars say they're A-OK therefore they MUST be A-OK and you should just shut up about it you big meanie-head!"

3) Almost any instance of "going against the grain" when it comes to political situations is probably the result of "Fear of Templars." If you want to treat a gemmer badly while you're in Allanak, go ahead. But my character will probably not risk the ire of the Templarate - which in its collective wisdom not only allows them to exist, but has built them a damned good looking quarter for them to live in.

There is a vast gulf of difference between terror of templars and snuggling up with every single gemmed and northie you run across. 

First, I would prefer people to respond to the terror of Templars when they start instilling terror.  If Templars start decapitating people for getting into a bar fight with a northerner, great, it is time for an attitude adjustment.  On the other hand, if your city has been at war with Tuluk with 2000 fucking years, and been terrified by magikers for since the dawn of time, maybe instant tolerance and love isn't the proper response.

Second, there is a massive gulf of difference between "tolerance" and cuddly love.  Blacks were "tolerated" after the end of slavery.  Jews were "tolerated" in Germany in 1939.  Neo-Nazi's are "tolerated" in the US.  That didn't mean that it was socially okay to go be their friends.  You can be completely intolerant and still be hostile, or at the very least give off bad vibes.  Allanak still has social taboos, even if the Templars have stated that you can't stab northerners for fun and profit in the streets. 

Pissing away a few thousand years of violent hostility in a few years is is silly.  Hell,  half of the fun in Allanak and Tuluk uniting to go do whatever is the fact that the citizens of the respective city states hate each other with a burning passion and work together completely without trust or friendship.  There should a relationship that is fraught with tension and deep unease.  Now, I am not criticizing any plots.  I don't play any knowing part in any of them and so I have no idea what the back room politics is.  What I do see is the bar room politics of it, and it shouldn't be so damn fluffy, especially in Allanak.  In Tuluk you might justify some sort of subtle BS about not displaying too much, but not in Allanak.

Personally, I blame leaders, and to a lesser extent, everyone.  Everyone is responsible for maintaining an atmosphere other than a happy huggy liberal society.  Leaders in particular are responsible for making sure that their underlings don't act like asses in public and bring shame to their own name.  Staff is responsible for smacking people appropriately when things get really out of hand.  Templars are there to put the fear of God King in people.  All the other schmucks should be there to do their own best to keep the game gritty and away from some happy socially liberal democracy.

I personally think more spanking paddles are called for all around.

Rindan, thank you for this post.

[The7DeadlyVenomz]

Hell,  half of the fun in Allanak and Tuluk uniting to go do whatever is the fact that the citizens of the respective city states hate each other with a burning passion and work together completely without trust or friendship.  There should a relationship that is fraught with tension and deep unease. 

This is a very good point.

[Gimfalisette]

Personally, I blame leaders, and to a lesser extent, everyone.  Everyone is responsible for maintaining an atmosphere other than a happy huggy liberal society.  Leaders in particular are responsible for making sure that their underlings don't act like asses in public and bring shame to their own name.  Staff is responsible for smacking people appropriately when things get really out of hand.  Templars are there to put the fear of God King in people.  All the other schmucks should be there to do their own best to keep the game gritty and away from some happy socially liberal democracy.

I personally think more spanking paddles are called for all around.

Yes, AND. Leaders aren't always around to see their minions acting like asses. Tattling on people who are being stupid, to their bosses, is a perfectly valid Allanaki sport. So is spreading rumors that will get back to the leaders. Or heck, bribe a leader to make a public example of someone you don't like and/or you want people to be less tolerant of. (Maybe the leader will do so, or maybe you'll get a private explanation of the politics behind why that can't happen.) Sure, these are semi-political tools, but they work. Use them to correct behavior you don't like.

[Salt Merchant]

I don't believe the hatred between the populaces can be so virulent as some people describe. This piece of information must be well known enough to be postable here: there is a visible stream of Allanaki refugees moving into Tuluk, with no sign of the Tuluki doing any less than accepting them in.

[Dresan]

I think my feelings are clear code wise, plot-wise i think the staff has been working real hard, i take a peek at the IC boards and thats more then clear, good job in that regard imo. I think individual players still roleplays their character wonderfully, their emotes, the way they speak, the quality in that regular has never gone down at least to me. If i was a newbie, i could still sit in a bar and i'd be astonished at the roleplaying

However, i agree somewhat with Rindan, mostly in regards to how people should be treating specific groups or individuals but this has been slowly creeping up on to the game for a while and i think its slowly been getting worse.  I kinda started seeing it with the surge in half-elves, there were alot more in the taverns so some players began using this as an excuse to get friendly with them, shrugging off what the documents say about hating breeds. This wasn't as huge of deal to many, some threads and reminders from the staff popped up and eventually people forgot about it and moved on. However same happened when there was suddenly a surge of magickers running around. With alot of magickal character some people tried using this as an excuse to become friendlier with them and treat magick as a common thing. Not to get too off topic but the only problem that I had was not that there were too many magickers but that alot of them were just struting down the road or being very open about their abilities, i had no probelms with 'secret' magickers. Luckily that has cooled down and at least i don't see it often anymore but i find people are still talking about magickal occurances like everyday common things.

AmosA: "Hey, just came from a hunt, encounter not two but three magickal creatures X."
AmosB: "Oh yeah, hmm, so what you do?"
AmosA: "Meh nothing, just tried to smack them around a bit before i ran away, fuckin' magickers"
AmosB: "Not bad, but hey more importantly, did you check out the new waitress' ass?"

Still once again we had people using excuses (sometimes OOC and sometimes IC related) to try to circumvent the docs on how to feel about something, in the case above  magicks. It seems that Rindian posted another example of people trying to avoid document described conflict that should exsist in most characters regardless of most IC or OOC circumstances. I don't completely agree with Vanth, just because i don't feel people are thinking their characters -are- the exception when they act this way but more around the lines of; ' because this is the situation (again ICly or OOCly related) this is what the 'norm' should be because its much funner for me that way'.

Personally, I blame leaders, and to a lesser extent, everyone.  Everyone is responsible for maintaining an atmosphere other than a happy huggy liberal society.  Leaders in particular are responsible for making sure that their underlings don't act like asses in public and bring shame to their own name.  Staff is responsible for smacking people appropriately when things get really out of hand.  Templars are there to put the fear of God King in people.  All the other schmucks should be there to do their own best to keep the game gritty and away from some happy socially liberal democracy.

In general i think more and more people are less willing to cause conflicts of any kind esspecially ones that might end the life or in anyway hurt their characters , i think alot of people are still trying to keep their character healthy, safe and strong for the 'end of days' even though that could be years away . I still see one or two players trying to make the effort though, going out of their way in the happy-go lucky atmosphere to make conflict for the single southern/breed in a northern bar or vise versa. Its always refreshing to see and reminds you of what Arm really is, much kudos there...but it feels these are almost special events.

So who is to blame exactly? In my opinion everyone, not really the leaders in anyway but everyone is a bit to blame, from the staff to the players. The staff needs to make sure the feelings of the virtual masses be know all and the players who know better, need to do the right thing and stand up for the Spirit of Armageddon regardless of the IC consequences. Its unfortunately not always an easy thing to do though. 

I personally think more spanking paddles are called for all around.

Yes please.

In a southern tavern: 2 northern PCs+ 3 (northern loving) southern PC < 1 (northern hating) southern PC + the hating virtual masses.

[Tarx]

Just remember it's a lot more fun for everyone if you play a prejudiced character that is not the exception to the rule in social situations.

[Mood]

Just remember it's a lot more fun for everyone if you play a prejudiced character that is not the exception to the rule in social situations.

Until your entire clan starts giving you shit for starting bar fights, and being mean to the elves. Sure, the conflict might be fun for awhile... but then you just get tired of swimming upstream.

[Akaramu]

Remember, visible conflict is not the only way to adhere a bit more to the docs. Instead of beating the elf to a pulp, you could simply go sit at a different table with your friends, and then exchange dirty elf jokes. Whisper them if your friends are afraid of the little elfie. 

Or simply ignore anything that magicker says, if it gets too much, go somewhere else and complain about the damned magickers in your favourite bar as soon as it is safe to complain.

I still consider open, friendly socializing with outcasts as the only way to deal with the trend extremely silly.

[manonfire]

I don't really run into this problem too often, but if I -did-, I'd probably wish up to have the point reinforced by an immortal.

Code Select Expand

wish all There's a bit of undue gemmer love going on the the Gaj. My character responded accordingly, but for some reason, <so and so> is gushing love at <random elkrosian waxing about how awesome it is to roast a scrab with lightning bolts>.

The scruffy-ass bartender says to <elkrosian>, "Y'know we ain't keen on hearin' that nonsense here, boy. Best take your ass elswhere."


[Supreme Allah]

As per usual, Rindan has hit the nail on the head. 1.Arm has degenerated a bit, but in my opinion it has little or nothing to do with the staff's focus being turned upon 2.Arm.  If the playerbase truly wants to get Arm back to its previous state, then if you ask me it needs to take a long look in the mirror.

Over the past year or two I've noticed a steady decline in emotes and average Amoses, while a steady rise in magickers and "tell man Where's Jimmy at?" as opposed to "tell man (levelling an icy gaze upon !man, a hand resting coolly on the hilt of ~sword) Where's Jimmy at?" I've seen a steady rise in making an excuse to go out and kill something or crank those leet magick skillz and a steady decline in player-driven plotlines.

That's not to say that awesome roleplay's not out there anymore - I've seen plenty of evidence that it is - but it used to be everywhere in sight. You couldn't avoid it. Nowadays you have to go out and look for it, dodging pitfalls along the way. Leaderly PCs used to really set the tone and drive plots without the need of Imms to get overly involved at all - sometimes it felt like they were (with no complaints) simply reactive to what the world was doing on its own, because yes, the playerbase was THAT DAMN GOOD. The standard feels lower and I'm just hoping it'll return once 2.Arm comes around.

Yes, SOME of this may have to do with the end of the world coming, with people playing different guilds and such, and wanting to explore the code before it goes kaboom... but must flavorful, emotive roleplay be left at the wayside as a consequence? I don't think so. I think if someone played the hell out of their warrior and could make us envision his movements with every last swing of his coded sword, I think he could do the same as a Krathi calling up his coded burning death.

It just feels like he isn't anymore. It feels like he's spamwalking through town to get back to his temple and spamcast until an overworked, underappreciated Imm gives him something better to do. And when he walks through a tavern, there's no whispers or fear. People don't get up and leave when he sits in the next stool down. There's no stares or shouting when he whips his big flaming hammer of destruction out in plain sight somewhere.

I just hope the mystique, the bigotry, and the emotes come back soon, personally. Or in 2.Arm at least, if it's currently lost for good.

[Troicha]

Speaking as a middle-experience Arm player, let me just ask those who remember better times to please do one thing: show me.

No, I'm not ragging you with this, "Be the example," stuff. I seriously want to improve, especially if I'm part of the problem. So if you see me spamwalking or spamcasting or doing something elsewise stupid, show me better. I want to learn to be good enough to make the world come alive.

[Akaramu]

Speaking as a middle-experience Arm player, let me just ask those who remember better times to please do one thing: show me.

No, I'm not ragging you with this, "Be the example," stuff. I seriously want to improve, especially if I'm part of the problem. So if you see me spamwalking or spamcasting or doing something elsewise stupid, show me better. I want to learn to be good enough to make the world come alive.

Feel free to stick around my mundane PCs, they always die with shitty skills and lots of roleplay. 

With shitty I mean about 0-10skill practice sessions in 10 days playtime accumulared.

[Bebop]

I agree with Rindan too.

I HATE HATE HATE how acceptable magickers have become.  I know the Copper Wars changed a few folks mind in Allanak and even back three years ago when I started playing some leaders would rub elbows with them but even then behind closed doors it was obviously just for some political reason.  I remember helping kill a Whiran for a Tor, just because the Tor felt insulted.  I remember a Tor Warlord offering a bounty for a Krathi's head for going overboard on a cantrip in the Gaj.  I remember playing a character with a magicker mate who was constantly berrated, warned, gossiped about and ridiculed.  I want that kind of attitude back.

I remember having a half elf accused of pissing in the bakers flour by a Northern Noble.  Obviously there was no coded way possible to do this (I guess you could emote this) and off I was drug and berrated and fined.  I remember being made fun of in the Gaj by a unit of Byn for being a half elf, a half elf that would never speak out or defend themselves against "full blooded" people.

I MISS people using the docs for prejudice.  And acting like magickers are "no big deal" thing is getting on my nerves.

[Malken]

Why is there such a huge amount of people wanting more prejudice against magickers on the GDB and so few characters actually showing it in game? I don't understand that part... Is it because only 10% of the players actually read the GDB? Is it because a huge majority of the players just don't care much about the docs and prefer to have roleplaying partners where they are, no matter if they are elves/breeds/magickers?

This trend that has been going on about everyone agreeing that there should be more in your face prejudice in game and yet nothing much is changing in game, beside the one or two PCs that'll show up, do it, and quickly be pushed aside from the rest of the playerbase, just shows me that nothing will change unless the Staff comes down and starts giving us some real lessons and how it should be done via NPCs. You just can't trust the playerbase to change, in that way, anymore.

Like I said, I spent some time in Allanak a few weeks ago, maybe an hour or two, and I managed to see every docs being ignored in that small amount of time. Mundane guys hitting on a gemmer, some PC trying to 'save' and show love toward a 'rinthi scum, and some human girl fawning all over a breed (I would like to thank the gemmer, the 'rinthi scum and the breed for trying as hard as possible to play their roles properly, though, I see how hard it can be now when everyone is just ignoring what you truly are). All of this happened within -two- hours. Sure, you can all tell me an IC excuse for such behavior, and I won't have any choice but to accept it, but if everyone is the exception, and no one else wants to change, and, by the way, I don't think at this point that anyone will change in that way, I think it's time for the Staff, like I said a few months ago, to start teaching lessons on prejudice 101.

[staggerlee]

Speaking as a middle-experience Arm player, let me just ask those who remember better times to please do one thing: show me.

No, I'm not ragging you with this, "Be the example," stuff. I seriously want to improve, especially if I'm part of the problem. So if you see me spamwalking or spamcasting or doing something elsewise stupid, show me better. I want to learn to be good enough to make the world come alive.

I couldn't agree more.  Good rp feeds good rp, and I've been on both sides of that.
I've rped things and watched a few other people in the room suddenly start doing the same.  And I've also sat there letting something go totally over my head, and felt really embarrassed and stupid when someone else picked it up and went with it, then followed suit myself.

Reacting to the environment, playing with virtual npcs, fear of magickers, respect for nobility and any number of other things can be fixed by players, all it takes is you personally being willing to be the one to set a good example. I've seen numerous examples of that, and while people don't always pick up on it, like Troicha I'd really appreciate the heavy handed hints when I'm doing something wrong.

Everything I've learned about rp I learned from other players, and I've seen amazing changes in my own and other people's play when they had a good example to follow and learn from.

[Rarsh]

Speaking as a middle-experience Arm player, let me just ask those who remember better times to please do one thing: show me.

Speaking as a newbie Arm player, I couldn't agree more! If I weren't kinda obsessive and reading the GDB a lot, I'd have no clue that gemmers weren't almost totally acceptable in-game. The 'almost' being due to a well-played clan leader, who set a good example; but who also doesn't play much when I'm online. Also, I think this is tough for leaders sometime, because they're focused on results, and gemmers are wonderful tools to use to get those results. But I definitely feel I'm swimming upstream, so much so that, as a new player, I'm -still- not really sure what the common attitude is.

From what I've seen lately, gemmers are answerable to nobody except the highest authorities; they're more powerful than anyone but the highest authorities; and they're feared in much the same way that the highest authorities are. I kinda saw gemmers as inspiring as fear heavily tinged with disgust instead of templars, who inspire fear heavily tinged with awe, but that's a pretty fine distinction, and for a new player I often dunno how far to go. And often get smacked around IC if my PC is too much of a hater--or takes his own fear of the gemmed too far.

I seriously want to improve, especially if I'm part of the problem. So if you see me spamwalking or spamcasting or doing something elsewise stupid, show me better. I want to learn to be good enough to make the world come alive.

I also heartily agree with this part. It's really hard to stop being stupid when you aren't aware that's what you're doing! So if I'm screwing up, tell me. Or tell the staff to tell me, or however that works here.

Honestly, one great and memorable interaction (for me; I bet the leader already forgot!) with a clan leader early on helped more than any number of GDB posts.

[Supreme Allah]

I know it's easier to mimic when it's all going around you already, but if you know how it's supposed to be, try and be examples yourselves. The "standard" reaction to a gemmer sitting at the same bar you were at, back in the day, was something along the lines of:

l woman (casting a glance and a friendly smile aside)
pem brow rises a little as his eyes narrow on %woman gem, and he pulls a slight face, smile fading immediately.
stand (pointedly looking away from %woman)
em crosses the room toward ~table in a slightly hurried step
sit table
think Close one there.  Man, this place has really gone downhill... almost get yourself cursed just trying to have a drink nowadays. Why don't those freaks stay in their own quarter?

And often, those freaks DID learn to stay in their own quarter as a result.

[jstorrie]

It's difficult to treat gemmers like crap when the greater majority of them are being put to use by powerful clans. It's difficult to be constantly picking bar-fights over the north/south thing when you are a foreigner living abroad, or when there are foreigners stationed in your city that you run into every single night.

These are consequences of recent political changes in-game, and while I agree that people shouldn't be loving people they saw as mortal foes just last year, many PCs in play right now have IC reasons to be changing their opinions. Give their players the benefit of the doubt.

[Marauder Moe]

There's a difference between shunning a gemmer and insulting them. 

No gemmer is going to complain to his templar or Oash lord because he smiled at a pretty girl and she screamed and ran away (or something milder like a frown and scooting a few stools away).  However, if she spits on him and speculates about his reproductive dimensions then it's possible something bad might happen to her.

You can shun someone without insulting them and without getting in trouble.


There's also a difference between shunning someone and ignoring them.  I remember playing this one gemmer of mine where me and this other character spent like 15 minutes emoting subtle hurt/dirty/scared looks back and forth.  It was fun.


And one final secret... they key to shunning magickers isn't actually in the act of shunning magickers.  It's in the act of shunning/berating those who don't shun them.

[The7DeadlyVenomz]

It's difficult to treat gemmers like crap when the greater majority of them are being put to use by powerful clans. It's difficult to be constantly picking bar-fights over the north/south thing when you are a foreigner living abroad, or when there are foreigners stationed in your city that you run into every single night.

These are consequences of recent political changes in-game, and while I agree that people shouldn't be loving people they saw as mortal foes just last year, many PCs in play right now have IC reasons to be changing their opinions. Give their players the benefit of the doubt.

QFT.

[Rindan]

And one final secret... they key to shunning magickers isn't actually in the act of shunning magickers.  It's in the act of shunning/berating those who don't shun them.

I want to double and triple this sentiment.  My philosophy is to first show distrust of gemmers and pretty much flatly refuse to be civil to them.  That doesn't mean picking a fight, but it does mean responding to a "Hi!  How are you doing today!" with "emote glances at %gemmer dull black gem, grunts, and turns back to his drink with a look of disgust".  You can interact and ignore at the same time.

Perhaps even more importantly, as Marauder Moe points out, feel free to merrily tear into people who cuddle up with gemmers.  You might be too afraid of gemmers to do anything more than ignore and avoid, but you should feel free to be cruel to your fellow mundanes who are too friendly.  The most obvious thing you can do is express your suspicion that they themselves must be a vile deviant freak of nature if they are so friendly with one.  This can lead to all sorts of discussions around their sexual habits, their family, their friends, so and and so forth.

Now, annoyingly enough you will often run into ACLU civil rights lawyer when you are on this tact.  You just need to calmly repeat your claims that they are worthless criminal magiker deviants whose mother must have been a cheap 'rinth whore getting fucked by some Rukkian.  If they try and go off on the "but OMG I need to do business with them" tact, explain that even if they needed to conduct business (certainly no good business you can be sure) that only a magiker freak would think it is a good idea to conduct it in the presence of a few hundred Tek fearing citizens disgusted by such behavior.  If they give the "OMG, but u shuld be nice so they don't eat you" argument, calmly point out that everyone else in the tavern seems manage to get by without shoving licking some magikers boots.  If this fails, just start punching them.

[Salt Merchant]

And one final secret... they key to shunning magickers isn't actually in the act of shunning magickers.  It's in the act of shunning/berating those who don't shun them.

I want to double and triple this sentiment.  My philosophy is to first show distrust of gemmers and pretty much flatly refuse to be civil to them.  That doesn't mean picking a fight, but it does mean responding to a "Hi!  How are you doing today!" with "emote glances at %gemmer dull black gem, grunts, and turns back to his drink with a look of disgust".  You can interact and ignore at the same time.

Perhaps even more importantly, as Marauder Moe points out, feel free to merrily tear into people who cuddle up with gemmers.  You might be too afraid of gemmers to do anything more than ignore and avoid, but you should feel free to be cruel to your fellow mundanes who are too friendly.  The most obvious thing you can do is express your suspicion that they themselves must be a vile deviant freak of nature if they are so friendly with one.  This can lead to all sorts of discussions around their sexual habits, their family, their friends, so and and so forth.

Now, annoyingly enough you will often run into ACLU civil rights lawyer when you are on this tact.  You just need to calmly repeat your claims that they are worthless criminal magiker deviants whose mother must have been a cheap 'rinth whore getting fucked by some Rukkian.  If they try and go off on the "but OMG I need to do business with them" tact, explain that even if they needed to conduct business (certainly no good business you can be sure) that only a magiker freak would think it is a good idea to conduct it in the presence of a few hundred Tek fearing citizens disgusted by such behavior.  If they give the "OMG, but u shuld be nice so they don't eat you" argument, calmly point out that everyone else in the tavern seems manage to get by without shoving licking some magikers boots.  If this fails, just start punching them.

You keep delivering this message that magickers should be hated as rabidly in the south as they are in the north, with only the templarate standing between the two groups and a war of extermination. This just seems like an extension of "everyone hates sorcerers, northerns hate magickers" to "everyone hates magickers".

Show me one place that the documents claim gemmers are universally treated like shit on the bottom of someone's boot in Allanak, rather than just inspiring varying degrees of unease, fear and mistrust. If you can show me that, I'll withdraw my argument.

[Rindan]

Show me one place that the documents claim gemmers are universally treated like shit on the bottom of someone's boot in Allanak, rather than just inspiring varying degrees of unease, fear and mistrust. If you can show me that, I'll withdraw my argument.

The Elementalist Temples in Allanak
The Elementalist Temples in Allanak were built by the city as a way to deal with the elementalist population of Allanak. They were not built by the elementalists, or for the elementalists, or to attract elementalists to the city (although this has been an undesirable side effect).

By building the temples the city has created a place where elementalists can go and cast safely. This is in the belief that they're going to cast no matter what you do, so it might as well be somewhere safe, where you can keep an eye on them -- not to mention removed from the rest of the city into a quarter all their own.

The mentality of living in a city-state is that this is where you were born, this is where you will die, and spending your life anywhere else is almost unthinkable. Doubly so for elementalists, many of whom have probably never been away from the city far enough to lose sight of the gates. Life outside of the city, for them, is an almost unthinkably dangerous and barbaric fate.

The Elementalists of Allanak
Just because an elementalist in Allanak is treated poorly does not mean they have an overwhelming desire to leave the city. Even slaves in a city-state setting will not leave the city-state when given the opportunity, instead fleeing to the slums or possibly trying to pose as an artisan if they have the skills to do so.

One reason for doing this is a lack of knowledge on the conditions of life outside of the city walls. There are gaj, anakore, gith, and worse out in the desert, and what do they know of such things? The land is covered with people that don't even speak a civilized language like sirihish, how would they communicate with them? And what about good wine, music, and comfortable clothing? There are people who will endure the prejudice of a city-state in return for having access to the lifestyle and culture it makes available to them.

Another reason is the exact opposite, knowing exactly what life is like outside of the city walls. Possibly they've traveled, or are from another land, or have gone shadow walking if they're a drovian. They have seen life outside of the city state and don't care for the lawless nature of that life. Within the city-state at least the rules are known, and if observed with a great deal of humility, one can expect to live by them.

There are also undoubtably elementalists who are patriots of the city-state. For whatever reason they hold little or no animosity towards the social structure that brands them as nearly sub-human, and actually use their powers to aid it. These people might be somewhat rare, but they do exist and you will find them in any group of persecuted people.

[Salt Merchant]

There are also undoubtably elementalists who are patriots of the city-state. For whatever reason they hold little or no animosity towards the social structure that brands them as nearly sub-human, and actually use their powers to aid it. These people might be somewhat rare, but they do exist and you will find them in any group of persecuted people.

Alright, the other points were a bit dubious, but I guess this one carries enough weight to confirm your position, along with another document that says magickers are hated without a qualifier. Hated + sub-human sounds like shit on a boot to me.

So get off your butts everyone and shun those magickers!