This State of Neglect

[Throttle]

I have been thinking this for a long time, and am finally in a position where I can post about it without worrying about the ire and grudges that might follow. This post was the proverbial last straw, though it is in no way the only example of what I want to address. The issue I'm bringing up is that the game is in many regards suffering from a state of complete and utter neglect, with no hopes of even blatantly bugged skills even getting a looking at or possibly a band-aid fix, until 2.0. For all I know (and have come to expect) 2.0 could be another two years away, and the longer this artificially prolonged, stretched-thin state of end-of-the-world goes on, the more it stings to see that nothing is really being done to keep the game tidy in the meantime. I'm not talking about intangible plotlines, but the general janitor work that is necessary to keep a game playable in the long run when the players have to deal with such problems as bugged skills.

I understand just as well as the next guy that the staff is busy with the project, and I don't expect it not to show (if I still played), but I think it's a huge mistake to completely abandon anything not related to the few tired plotlines that serve as the last thing that glues the game together. Sanvean, this is one of a guild's main defining skills that is broken, it doesn't function, or as far as I could tell with my last character who was an assassin, the skill is at least bugged to an extent that it is virtually useless in some regards. It's no fun trying to poison someone and seeing the sixth succesfully thrown poison-knife fail to perform its purpose, and there are so many more examples of things that are either bugged and in need of repair or minor coded additions that could favorably be implemented into the game, some of which look like they take about an hour to write. The GDB has been teeming with fantastic ideas lately, and while I understand and respect that the majority of the staff's work is delegated to the Reborn project, it is such a shame to see that you've finally washed your hands of the current game's code and left it to fend for itself (which it evidently can't).

I know that I, if I still cared, would much rather wait an additional month or two for Reborn's release in return for a game that still enjoys some of the janitor work that it requires. Noone is demanding that huge coded systems are implemented, but when a skill is actually broken to the point of not working at all and you concede that it won't even be looked at in 1.0, you are sending a very negative message to your playerbase of which many are already very dissatisfied with the state of the game and the circumstances under which it is being run in its last era. People are still excited about Reborn, probably because there's nothing else to be excited about, but every day that excitement wanes and that process is only enhanced when they don't have an acceptable game to play in the meantime. Some are satisfied with what they have now - generally the ones who play in one of the few clans that are kept involved and alive - but others aren't even taking the game seriously anymore and have either quit or are just, well, screwing around. I speak not for everybody, but at least for myself and almost every single player I have had the pleasure of being in OOC contact with during my time here.

How long would it really take to have a quick look at the poison skill, and whatever else turns out to be a real hindrance to players' enjoyment, and at the very least see what's wrong and whether or not it can be fixed with very little work? Are you that busy? I'm asking not because I truly care about 1.0, but because I would like for 2.0 to still have a respectable playerbase once I return to check it out.

[Marauder Moe]

I like how you completely ignored all the bugs that WERE fixed in the last year or so (since the Arm 2 announcement).  No wait... I don't like that at all.

Complaining about broken poison code is one thing, but then extrapolating that the WHOLE GAME is suffering from "a state of complete and utter neglect" is a bit ridiculous.

[Aruven]

There has been alot of focus on the original game...

[X-D]

While I agree with Moe, I also partially agree with Throttle.

Most things are just taking much longer to fix.

But to be honest, I see things like fixing the echos to areas to remove kank and I cannot help but wonder why time was spent on that rather then fixing Bash....or poison/throw what have you.

None of us as players depends on wether or not a room echos somebody riding by on a kank.

But warriors, specialy certain races depend on Bash, Assassins depend on poison and throw, Rangers poison and archery and so much more.

Then to add insult to injury, these very same skills STILL work for the NPC.

When I've asked staff on the matter the answer was, We might look into it if somebody thinks it is important.

How can fixing an environmental echo be more important then fixing a PC/NPC skill?

[The7DeadlyVenomz]

Throttle does have points.

However, he also fails to pay attention to other portions of the reality.

There is a change in focus on this game. That is very obvious. But it's not even remotely close to as bad as Throttle likes to think of. I mean, let's be honest. The brewing skill has been outta whack for a decade. I am pretty sure Reborn was not in the picture at that time. Poisoning someone with a fucking thrown knife isn't really that broken. It'll be ok if it does not fix itself. Reborn needs attention as much as this game, if not more, since the point is to make a better game this time around. All I am concerned about is getting responses to my emails and wishs, so that I can continue to move forward in this game. And that was horrible for a bit, but it has improved greatly since, so that is no longer a real concern.

Relax, and let the Staff handle their business. As long as they answer emails promptly and manage to answer every 3rd wish, we will be ok. Seriously.

[The7DeadlyVenomz]

Eh, although I didn't think about the NPCs and their spam skills, and how nice it would be if that would get fixed - but still, it doesn't change the point that every nuance of this game does not have to be fixed in order for us to play it. We have been playing it for years this way ... we can survive a few more months.

[Mood]

we can survive a few more months.

I think Throttle's whole point is that we don't know if it's going to be a few months, or two years.

Edit: Not that I'm complaining - I'm more or less happy with things.

[Sanvean]

But to be honest, I see things like fixing the echos to areas to remove kank and I cannot help but wonder why time was spent on that rather then fixing Bash....or poison/throw what have you.

I did want to address this.  I did this because I -can- fix those echoes.  I -can't- fix bash or poison.  I fixed it because a full dozen people had bugged it, it was part of a plotline, and it didn't take a huge amount of time (thanks to Nessalin's webtools).  You are comparing two things that are not comparable.

Yes, I'd rather see coder time put into working out a good, solid, intuitive and elegant system for 2.0, starting from scratch, than banging their heads against patchworky, decades-old code that one person put in and then another person tweaked, and then someone else thought it would be cool if... and then person four had to take that out because it was breaking all the Xes in the game...and so forth. It's a much more efficient use of their time.

There is work going on in the current game. Coders fix crash bugs as they are discovered, for one. In the past six months, I see a number of fixes being made either because they have a lot of bang for the buck (by which I mean they have a substantial impact in proportion to the work required) or because they were necessary for play. There is also a very large amount of work going on driving plots, handling players, and so forth, and frankly, I'm insulted by the implication that the staff has "left the game to fend for itself."

I understand that it would be swell to be able to throw poisoned weapons at NPCs. I don't think the game is broken because one can't.

[Bebop]

I agree with Throttle in a lot of ways.

I do not enjoy the game as much as I once did.  And not just because the game is going down, but because the game seems to be of much lesser quality because effort is not being put into it as it once was for the sake of a new game that no one ever asked to replace the current past time we've all enjoyed over many years.

It isn't just poison, it's duplicate NPCs, bugged rooms, bugged NPCs a lack of building and availability which limits IG plotlines and promotes a stale sense of imminence hanging over the entire game.  It's like living in a house falling into disrepair.  I play now, I pass the time.  But do I care about or enjoy the game as I once did?  No.

Do I think we've somehow been able to maintain a decent amount of players for peak hours?  Yes.  Do I think we have as many seasoned players and the same quality as before.  Not by a long shot.  And this is sad, because this is what made Armageddon different.

I'm sure the new installment will be quiet good, but as Throttle said this could be years in the making for all we know, by then players who promised to come back probably won't and I just think that's a shame.  I think the players and staff we have now are trying and I've had good experiences with them.  But a lot of the staff and players are new to what they are doing.  I miss the other seasoned and dedicated staff and players we've lost in this process.  I think it's sad that as good as it is now the new players won't get to know how much better the game was before.  Hopefully we can say the second version will be just as good.  But you're trying to top a game that had over ten years behind it.  Logically, the code and shiny things will be improved but we've lost those seasoned RPers and staff that were so involved before like Halaster, Naiona and Tlaloc (who I know had a hand in totally revolutionizing Tuluki politics, if I can be epic for a moment).

I recently bowed out of a leadership role and during the process of it over a period of four and a half months I was constantly reporting bugs, code frustrations with rooms and ideas.  The bugs were some what fixed but not particularly addressed and the other ideas that I had presented among initially receiving the character I began to slowly realize would most likely -never- come to pass.  Where there used to be two - three IMMs covering clans, it seems to be one or two imms covering several clans and at the same time focusing their efforts on a second game.  This is part of the problem I think as well.

Ultimately, I guess my point is.  I think the current game as drooped in quality at the expense of a new version of itself.  But I too feel concerns that this is going to hit the overall quality of RP as we have lost seasoned staff and players and an interest in the current version of the game which is going to set the standard of RP for the second version.  As Sanvean said herself there has also been a huge rise in skill spamming etc.  Just makes me kind of sigh.

[jstorrie]

How are you sure that poison+throw wasn't purposefully nerfed? Should middling throw plus novice poison allow you to get guaranteed kills at room reach on anyone who doesn't know/doesn't have access to, say, the terradin cures? I don't consider it to be a very frustrating bug, and yes, I use both of those skills often in play currently.

I think things are going fine, actually. From what I can see, when some staff were moved over to dealing with 2.Arm, we just closed off certain clans. The clans that are still open seem to be, for the most part, getting good attention; the one(s) I'm in and interact with certainly are.

[The7DeadlyVenomz]

Now, they are. I assure you, however, that there was a long-ass point there when certian clans were getting no attention at all, and I mean this most literally.

Fortunately, that problem has been rectified, as far as I know.

[touringCompl3t3]

Strongly disagree with original post.

[rishenko]

But to be honest, I see things like fixing the echos to areas to remove kank and I cannot help but wonder why time was spent on that rather then fixing Bash....or poison/throw what have you.

I fixed it because a full dozen people had bugged it

I was one of those individuals.  Thank you.  It literally gave me cognitive dissonance.

There is also a very large amount of work going on driving plots, handling players, and so forth...

Again, thank you.  I and several others have seen the effort put into both plots and in trying to help us with our characters and various requests.

Is everything perfect?  No.  Are all of the bugs, even some of the more annoying ones, fixed?  No.  I have my own laundry list, as I'm sure everybody does, of shit that we wish would either be changed or fixed.

However, I understand that there needs to be a balance between coding for the next Armageddon and the present.  I would love to see the imms create either a weekly or monthly thread poll that would contain a list of potential fixes (no massive coding challenges here, just help, quick fixes they think they could make) that would affect either a large number of players or a well traveled section of the world.  Recognizing their limits in regards to time, the top one or two problems voted for in the poll would be fixed that week.  The next week/month, another poll would be created.  This way players would feel that the current game is receiving attention while giving staff room to breathe and only a short, bulleted list of issues to work on.

[X-D]

Actually Sanvean, I knew the reason at the time I posted it. It was just the first example that came into my head.  You have stated many times that you are not a coder.

My post was more about how it "feels" is all. As I said in the second line, Its just taking much longer to fix things.

Of course, since the mud is ending anyway, Things don't have to be true fixes either, but patches, Even a script is easy enough to add to fix the bash verses NPC problem.

I also would like to point out that As  7DV said, yes, we had what seemed like a 4 month lull in staff on arm1 But that seems to be pretty much over and I have seen a lot of cleaning of the game world and at least somebody responds to my emails (never really had a wish problem).

[Silverfaune]

Your world isn't perfect.. but whose is?  This is a fabulous world.  There are fabulous ideas here, and if you can't roleplay without a staff member to help your plot along, or if you are fed up because X doesn't work as it should, then you need to spend some time on other muds, where dedicated rpers manage to pull off some amazing stories without any of the benefits that you get on Armageddon.  If they can manage to roll with the punches then I think that people here, who thus far seem to be a really high caliber of roleplayer, can handle the odd bug or lack of staff involvement. 

There's a lot to be thankful for here that many people who have been here a long time take for granted, I think.  Here are my thanks:

• Thanks for making a world that doesn't crash every other day and lose everyones items.
• Thanks for a world that is run by a "staff" instead of "Gods", and that apparently a (relatively) sane staff that shares the goals of the players - to make a great place for writers and roleplayers and mudders.
  
• Thanks to Those in Power for not deleting everyones items randomly because you frustrated with your life.
  
• Thanks for pushing yourselves to make the mud better, and make an entirely new one after all this time
  
• 
  Thanks for giving me an opportunity to not only indulge my roleplaying needs but for giving me all these cool tools to do it with.
  
• 
  Thanks for giving people a chance to prove their quality through their rp and maturity - even if not every great scene or mature act can be witnessed - instead of rewarding people for "donating" money or winning an arm-wrestling contest at a player meet.
  
• 
  Thanks for being there to help move plots along at all, instead of working on making yourself a cool new area with great gear and not telling anyone about it until your PC has harvested it to death...
  
• 
  Thanks for having a staff that people want to have involved in their plots, rather than a staff that you sincerely hope won't do anything "creative" and screw around with the world history, geography or politics simply because "they had a cool idea".
  
• 
  Thanks for having a staff that doesn't allow their personal politics and/or religious views to actually affect what an individual is "allowed" to rp (to my knowledge).
  

And especially...

Thanks for not giving up or lashing out when you work at your real life and deal with that, and then work on this MUD when you'd rather just be able to sit back and play, and someone comes along and tells you you're not working hard enough.

[Dakurus]

Thanks to the players that have the patience and expend the effort in making this such a wonderful game for their fellow player with little expectation and no promise of a return on that investment.

Thanks to the players that see the positives and appreciate the work that goes into this world, both by fellow players and staff.

Thanks to the players that are creative but flexible, realizing that not everything can be as good as we all wish.

Thanks to the players that shoulder responsibility, be it IC and OOC to help out.

Thanks to the players that keep coming back and enjoy themselves.

Your world isn't perfect.. but whose is?  This is a fabulous world.  There are fabulous ideas here, and if you can't roleplay without a staff member to help your plot along, or if you are fed up because X doesn't work as it should, then you need to spend some time on other muds, where dedicated rpers manage to pull off some amazing stories without any of the benefits that you get on Armageddon.  If they can manage to roll with the punches then I think that people here, who thus far seem to be a really high caliber of roleplayer, can handle the odd bug or lack of staff involvement. 

There's a lot to be thankful for here that many people who have been here a long time take for granted, I think.  Here are my thanks:

• Thanks for making a world that doesn't crash every other day and lose everyones items.
• Thanks for a world that is run by a "staff" instead of "Gods", and that apparently a (relatively) sane staff that shares the goals of the players - to make a great place for writers and roleplayers and mudders.
  
• Thanks to Those in Power for not deleting everyones items randomly because you frustrated with your life.
  
• Thanks for pushing yourselves to make the mud better, and make an entirely new one after all this time
  
• 
  Thanks for giving me an opportunity to not only indulge my roleplaying needs but for giving me all these cool tools to do it with.
  
• 
  Thanks for giving people a chance to prove their quality through their rp and maturity - even if not every great scene or mature act can be witnessed - instead of rewarding people for "donating" money or winning an arm-wrestling contest at a player meet.
  
• 
  Thanks for being there to help move plots along at all, instead of working on making yourself a cool new area with great gear and not telling anyone about it until your PC has harvested it to death...
  
• 
  Thanks for having a staff that people want to have involved in their plots, rather than a staff that you sincerely hope won't do anything "creative" and screw around with the world history, geography or politics simply because "they had a cool idea".
  
• 
  Thanks for having a staff that doesn't allow their personal politics and/or religious views to actually affect what an individual is "allowed" to rp (to my knowledge).
  

And especially...

Thanks for not giving up or lashing out when you work at your real life and deal with that, and then work on this MUD when you'd rather just be able to sit back and play, and someone comes along and tells you you're not working hard enough.

[jstorrie]

I would have to say that rule #1 for enjoying Armageddon has less to do with immersion and ic/ooc separation than simply: assume good faith. Assume that other players are playing to have fun, too. Assume that staff are staffing to apply themselves in ways that interest them. Do not assume that any player or staff member or group thereof wants to dick you around.

I remember a few months back when there was a real dry spell in Tuluk and I had complaints about players and staff which I vented in all directions for a bit–but staff members (& Sanvean especially) did address my actual concerns politely and quickly. It's safe to assume that the staff of Armageddon wants people to have fun, so don't be too hard on them. Managing one great game and building another at the same time is tough, right?

Conversely I think that very blunt complaints such as the op's are perfectly tolerable, and we should assume he's not trying to dick us around, either–when quality drops in the game, it may be an honest mistake but it's also frustrating. So! Common ground? Productive discourse? Yeah? Pals?

[staggerlee]

That's crazy talk jstorrie!  But you're right.  I find that as I mature as a muder I've more and more learned that what you just described is the number one way to ensure I get a quality experience out of the mud.  It's honestly incredible the difference that attitude makes.

And I also wanted to agree with Silverfaune. As someone who hasn't been playing that long I've had amazing experiences in the game, met some great rpers and had good experiences with the staff.

I don't want to diminish from anyone's legitimate concerns, but I would suggest that taking them to the staff in a less public manner would get more positive results, rather than putting them on the defense in a public forum and generally displaying the game in a poor light for players old and new.

[Malken]

Sanvean is a Saint.

(I don't want to take anything away from the other Staffers!)

But there's always this feeling that "Everything will be alright" when I see Sanvean around often. (Like she is lately on the GDB.)

[X-D]

Grins.

For some reason or another once The matrix came out I always thought of Sanvean when seeing the oracle
Shoosh, it will be alright....Have a cookie.

[Bebop]

Your world isn't perfect.. but whose is?  This is a fabulous world.  There are fabulous ideas here, and if you can't roleplay without a staff member to help your plot along, or if you are fed up because X doesn't work as it should, then you need to spend some time on other muds, where dedicated rpers manage to pull off some amazing stories without any of the benefits that you get on Armageddon.  If they can manage to roll with the punches then I think that people here, who thus far seem to be a really high caliber of roleplayer, can handle the odd bug or lack of staff involvement. 

There's a lot to be thankful for here that many people who have been here a long time take for granted, I think.  Here are my thanks:

• Thanks for making a world that doesn't crash every other day and lose everyones items.
• Thanks for a world that is run by a "staff" instead of "Gods", and that apparently a (relatively) sane staff that shares the goals of the players - to make a great place for writers and roleplayers and mudders.
  
• Thanks to Those in Power for not deleting everyones items randomly because you frustrated with your life.
  
• Thanks for pushing yourselves to make the mud better, and make an entirely new one after all this time
  
• 
  Thanks for giving me an opportunity to not only indulge my roleplaying needs but for giving me all these cool tools to do it with.
  
• 
  Thanks for giving people a chance to prove their quality through their rp and maturity - even if not every great scene or mature act can be witnessed - instead of rewarding people for "donating" money or winning an arm-wrestling contest at a player meet.
  
• 
  Thanks for being there to help move plots along at all, instead of working on making yourself a cool new area with great gear and not telling anyone about it until your PC has harvested it to death...
  
• 
  Thanks for having a staff that people want to have involved in their plots, rather than a staff that you sincerely hope won't do anything "creative" and screw around with the world history, geography or politics simply because "they had a cool idea".
  
• 
  Thanks for having a staff that doesn't allow their personal politics and/or religious views to actually affect what an individual is "allowed" to rp (to my knowledge).
  

And especially...

Thanks for not giving up or lashing out when you work at your real life and deal with that, and then work on this MUD when you'd rather just be able to sit back and play, and someone comes along and tells you you're not working hard enough.

I know I for one am thankful for the staff.  But I think that issue here is that some of the players that have been here for a handful of years (and some way more than that) that were here before the game change announcement see the way the game was one way, and how the game is now.  We as players have spent a lot of time into this game and I think it's hard on some of us when we see what seems to be a visible decrease in attention to the current incarnation of the game.  The game is good now, but I guess some of us think it was better before and find it frustrating.  Maybe there were always these issues, but now that the game is going down we are attributing it to that but I don't think that's it, at least not entirely.  And I think we -have- lost some players, IMMs and policies that were assests to the game and that is hard for some of us to deal with.  It doesn't mean the game is not enjoyable or that people are ungrateful (though I suppose some are).  I think it's more of a feeling of frustration/helplessness/sadness.  I understand the staff is important but I don't think that people have the right to come down on players for expressing their feelings of frustration.  We devote a lot of time to this game too and I thought that Throttle's concerns were valid and civil.  I have a few books and games that I love, that have made a difference in my life.  If I was reading through 1984 and got to the end and suddenly the vocabulary become overly comprehensive, if there were typos towards the end and suddenly the protganist busts out and kills that one dood at the end with guns or something in an overly spammy way, that would ruin the entire story for me.  Think about that.  Think about how people are feeling about an ending to a story they have devoted many, MANY hours to over the progress of ten years.  You can say "it's just a game" but it is a big deal.  I for one have spent many an hour over the process of three years playing this game and at least Throttle (even though he says he doesn't) cares enough to come in and post his concerns.

The end can make or break the story.... and it's hard to see it ending like this.

[Rhyden]

Bebop pretty much sums up my thoughts.

It is sad to see the old game winding to an eventual end and it's probably true that Armageddon 1 isn't getting as much attention cause little baby Armageddon 2 was just introduced! I've noticed a few problems here and there, but nothing major that I've noticed is really interfering.

[Nyr]

Silverfaune, thanks for that post, especially:

Thanks for not giving up or lashing out when you work at your real life and deal with that, and then work on this MUD when you'd rather just be able to sit back and play, and someone comes along and tells you you're not working hard enough.

That gives me some perspective.  Thanks.  You rock.

[Only He Stands There]

Gotta jump on the "awesome staff" bandwagon. If you'd have posted this six or eight months ago, I would have agreed. At this point, though? I'm seeing some of the best staff interaction I've ever had, special thanks to my clan imms (you know who you are <3).

Kudos all around.

[th3kaiser]

Gotta jump on the "awesome staff" bandwagon. If you'd have posted this six or eight months ago, I would have agreed. At this point, though? I'm seeing some of the best staff interaction I've ever had, special thanks to my clan imms (you know who you are <3).

Kudos all around.

Concurrence.