This State of Neglect

[Throttle]

I have been thinking this for a long time, and am finally in a position where I can post about it without worrying about the ire and grudges that might follow. This post was the proverbial last straw, though it is in no way the only example of what I want to address. The issue I'm bringing up is that the game is in many regards suffering from a state of complete and utter neglect, with no hopes of even blatantly bugged skills even getting a looking at or possibly a band-aid fix, until 2.0. For all I know (and have come to expect) 2.0 could be another two years away, and the longer this artificially prolonged, stretched-thin state of end-of-the-world goes on, the more it stings to see that nothing is really being done to keep the game tidy in the meantime. I'm not talking about intangible plotlines, but the general janitor work that is necessary to keep a game playable in the long run when the players have to deal with such problems as bugged skills.

I understand just as well as the next guy that the staff is busy with the project, and I don't expect it not to show (if I still played), but I think it's a huge mistake to completely abandon anything not related to the few tired plotlines that serve as the last thing that glues the game together. Sanvean, this is one of a guild's main defining skills that is broken, it doesn't function, or as far as I could tell with my last character who was an assassin, the skill is at least bugged to an extent that it is virtually useless in some regards. It's no fun trying to poison someone and seeing the sixth succesfully thrown poison-knife fail to perform its purpose, and there are so many more examples of things that are either bugged and in need of repair or minor coded additions that could favorably be implemented into the game, some of which look like they take about an hour to write. The GDB has been teeming with fantastic ideas lately, and while I understand and respect that the majority of the staff's work is delegated to the Reborn project, it is such a shame to see that you've finally washed your hands of the current game's code and left it to fend for itself (which it evidently can't).

I know that I, if I still cared, would much rather wait an additional month or two for Reborn's release in return for a game that still enjoys some of the janitor work that it requires. Noone is demanding that huge coded systems are implemented, but when a skill is actually broken to the point of not working at all and you concede that it won't even be looked at in 1.0, you are sending a very negative message to your playerbase of which many are already very dissatisfied with the state of the game and the circumstances under which it is being run in its last era. People are still excited about Reborn, probably because there's nothing else to be excited about, but every day that excitement wanes and that process is only enhanced when they don't have an acceptable game to play in the meantime. Some are satisfied with what they have now - generally the ones who play in one of the few clans that are kept involved and alive - but others aren't even taking the game seriously anymore and have either quit or are just, well, screwing around. I speak not for everybody, but at least for myself and almost every single player I have had the pleasure of being in OOC contact with during my time here.

How long would it really take to have a quick look at the poison skill, and whatever else turns out to be a real hindrance to players' enjoyment, and at the very least see what's wrong and whether or not it can be fixed with very little work? Are you that busy? I'm asking not because I truly care about 1.0, but because I would like for 2.0 to still have a respectable playerbase once I return to check it out.

[Marauder Moe]

I like how you completely ignored all the bugs that WERE fixed in the last year or so (since the Arm 2 announcement).  No wait... I don't like that at all.

Complaining about broken poison code is one thing, but then extrapolating that the WHOLE GAME is suffering from "a state of complete and utter neglect" is a bit ridiculous.

[Aruven]

There has been alot of focus on the original game...

[X-D]

While I agree with Moe, I also partially agree with Throttle.

Most things are just taking much longer to fix.

But to be honest, I see things like fixing the echos to areas to remove kank and I cannot help but wonder why time was spent on that rather then fixing Bash....or poison/throw what have you.

None of us as players depends on wether or not a room echos somebody riding by on a kank.

But warriors, specialy certain races depend on Bash, Assassins depend on poison and throw, Rangers poison and archery and so much more.

Then to add insult to injury, these very same skills STILL work for the NPC.

When I've asked staff on the matter the answer was, We might look into it if somebody thinks it is important.

How can fixing an environmental echo be more important then fixing a PC/NPC skill?

[The7DeadlyVenomz]

Throttle does have points.

However, he also fails to pay attention to other portions of the reality.

There is a change in focus on this game. That is very obvious. But it's not even remotely close to as bad as Throttle likes to think of. I mean, let's be honest. The brewing skill has been outta whack for a decade. I am pretty sure Reborn was not in the picture at that time. Poisoning someone with a fucking thrown knife isn't really that broken. It'll be ok if it does not fix itself. Reborn needs attention as much as this game, if not more, since the point is to make a better game this time around. All I am concerned about is getting responses to my emails and wishs, so that I can continue to move forward in this game. And that was horrible for a bit, but it has improved greatly since, so that is no longer a real concern.

Relax, and let the Staff handle their business. As long as they answer emails promptly and manage to answer every 3rd wish, we will be ok. Seriously.

[The7DeadlyVenomz]

Eh, although I didn't think about the NPCs and their spam skills, and how nice it would be if that would get fixed - but still, it doesn't change the point that every nuance of this game does not have to be fixed in order for us to play it. We have been playing it for years this way ... we can survive a few more months.

[Mood]

we can survive a few more months.

I think Throttle's whole point is that we don't know if it's going to be a few months, or two years.

Edit: Not that I'm complaining - I'm more or less happy with things.

[Sanvean]

But to be honest, I see things like fixing the echos to areas to remove kank and I cannot help but wonder why time was spent on that rather then fixing Bash....or poison/throw what have you.

I did want to address this.  I did this because I -can- fix those echoes.  I -can't- fix bash or poison.  I fixed it because a full dozen people had bugged it, it was part of a plotline, and it didn't take a huge amount of time (thanks to Nessalin's webtools).  You are comparing two things that are not comparable.

Yes, I'd rather see coder time put into working out a good, solid, intuitive and elegant system for 2.0, starting from scratch, than banging their heads against patchworky, decades-old code that one person put in and then another person tweaked, and then someone else thought it would be cool if... and then person four had to take that out because it was breaking all the Xes in the game...and so forth. It's a much more efficient use of their time.

There is work going on in the current game. Coders fix crash bugs as they are discovered, for one. In the past six months, I see a number of fixes being made either because they have a lot of bang for the buck (by which I mean they have a substantial impact in proportion to the work required) or because they were necessary for play. There is also a very large amount of work going on driving plots, handling players, and so forth, and frankly, I'm insulted by the implication that the staff has "left the game to fend for itself."

I understand that it would be swell to be able to throw poisoned weapons at NPCs. I don't think the game is broken because one can't.

[Bebop]

I agree with Throttle in a lot of ways.

I do not enjoy the game as much as I once did.  And not just because the game is going down, but because the game seems to be of much lesser quality because effort is not being put into it as it once was for the sake of a new game that no one ever asked to replace the current past time we've all enjoyed over many years.

It isn't just poison, it's duplicate NPCs, bugged rooms, bugged NPCs a lack of building and availability which limits IG plotlines and promotes a stale sense of imminence hanging over the entire game.  It's like living in a house falling into disrepair.  I play now, I pass the time.  But do I care about or enjoy the game as I once did?  No.

Do I think we've somehow been able to maintain a decent amount of players for peak hours?  Yes.  Do I think we have as many seasoned players and the same quality as before.  Not by a long shot.  And this is sad, because this is what made Armageddon different.

I'm sure the new installment will be quiet good, but as Throttle said this could be years in the making for all we know, by then players who promised to come back probably won't and I just think that's a shame.  I think the players and staff we have now are trying and I've had good experiences with them.  But a lot of the staff and players are new to what they are doing.  I miss the other seasoned and dedicated staff and players we've lost in this process.  I think it's sad that as good as it is now the new players won't get to know how much better the game was before.  Hopefully we can say the second version will be just as good.  But you're trying to top a game that had over ten years behind it.  Logically, the code and shiny things will be improved but we've lost those seasoned RPers and staff that were so involved before like Halaster, Naiona and Tlaloc (who I know had a hand in totally revolutionizing Tuluki politics, if I can be epic for a moment).

I recently bowed out of a leadership role and during the process of it over a period of four and a half months I was constantly reporting bugs, code frustrations with rooms and ideas.  The bugs were some what fixed but not particularly addressed and the other ideas that I had presented among initially receiving the character I began to slowly realize would most likely -never- come to pass.  Where there used to be two - three IMMs covering clans, it seems to be one or two imms covering several clans and at the same time focusing their efforts on a second game.  This is part of the problem I think as well.

Ultimately, I guess my point is.  I think the current game as drooped in quality at the expense of a new version of itself.  But I too feel concerns that this is going to hit the overall quality of RP as we have lost seasoned staff and players and an interest in the current version of the game which is going to set the standard of RP for the second version.  As Sanvean said herself there has also been a huge rise in skill spamming etc.  Just makes me kind of sigh.

[jstorrie]

How are you sure that poison+throw wasn't purposefully nerfed? Should middling throw plus novice poison allow you to get guaranteed kills at room reach on anyone who doesn't know/doesn't have access to, say, the terradin cures? I don't consider it to be a very frustrating bug, and yes, I use both of those skills often in play currently.

I think things are going fine, actually. From what I can see, when some staff were moved over to dealing with 2.Arm, we just closed off certain clans. The clans that are still open seem to be, for the most part, getting good attention; the one(s) I'm in and interact with certainly are.

[The7DeadlyVenomz]

Now, they are. I assure you, however, that there was a long-ass point there when certian clans were getting no attention at all, and I mean this most literally.

Fortunately, that problem has been rectified, as far as I know.

[touringCompl3t3]

Strongly disagree with original post.

[rishenko]

But to be honest, I see things like fixing the echos to areas to remove kank and I cannot help but wonder why time was spent on that rather then fixing Bash....or poison/throw what have you.

I fixed it because a full dozen people had bugged it

I was one of those individuals.  Thank you.  It literally gave me cognitive dissonance.

There is also a very large amount of work going on driving plots, handling players, and so forth...

Again, thank you.  I and several others have seen the effort put into both plots and in trying to help us with our characters and various requests.

Is everything perfect?  No.  Are all of the bugs, even some of the more annoying ones, fixed?  No.  I have my own laundry list, as I'm sure everybody does, of shit that we wish would either be changed or fixed.

However, I understand that there needs to be a balance between coding for the next Armageddon and the present.  I would love to see the imms create either a weekly or monthly thread poll that would contain a list of potential fixes (no massive coding challenges here, just help, quick fixes they think they could make) that would affect either a large number of players or a well traveled section of the world.  Recognizing their limits in regards to time, the top one or two problems voted for in the poll would be fixed that week.  The next week/month, another poll would be created.  This way players would feel that the current game is receiving attention while giving staff room to breathe and only a short, bulleted list of issues to work on.

[X-D]

Actually Sanvean, I knew the reason at the time I posted it. It was just the first example that came into my head.  You have stated many times that you are not a coder.

My post was more about how it "feels" is all. As I said in the second line, Its just taking much longer to fix things.

Of course, since the mud is ending anyway, Things don't have to be true fixes either, but patches, Even a script is easy enough to add to fix the bash verses NPC problem.

I also would like to point out that As  7DV said, yes, we had what seemed like a 4 month lull in staff on arm1 But that seems to be pretty much over and I have seen a lot of cleaning of the game world and at least somebody responds to my emails (never really had a wish problem).

[Silverfaune]

Your world isn't perfect.. but whose is?  This is a fabulous world.  There are fabulous ideas here, and if you can't roleplay without a staff member to help your plot along, or if you are fed up because X doesn't work as it should, then you need to spend some time on other muds, where dedicated rpers manage to pull off some amazing stories without any of the benefits that you get on Armageddon.  If they can manage to roll with the punches then I think that people here, who thus far seem to be a really high caliber of roleplayer, can handle the odd bug or lack of staff involvement. 

There's a lot to be thankful for here that many people who have been here a long time take for granted, I think.  Here are my thanks:

• Thanks for making a world that doesn't crash every other day and lose everyones items.
• Thanks for a world that is run by a "staff" instead of "Gods", and that apparently a (relatively) sane staff that shares the goals of the players - to make a great place for writers and roleplayers and mudders.
  
• Thanks to Those in Power for not deleting everyones items randomly because you frustrated with your life.
  
• Thanks for pushing yourselves to make the mud better, and make an entirely new one after all this time
  
• 
  Thanks for giving me an opportunity to not only indulge my roleplaying needs but for giving me all these cool tools to do it with.
  
• 
  Thanks for giving people a chance to prove their quality through their rp and maturity - even if not every great scene or mature act can be witnessed - instead of rewarding people for "donating" money or winning an arm-wrestling contest at a player meet.
  
• 
  Thanks for being there to help move plots along at all, instead of working on making yourself a cool new area with great gear and not telling anyone about it until your PC has harvested it to death...
  
• 
  Thanks for having a staff that people want to have involved in their plots, rather than a staff that you sincerely hope won't do anything "creative" and screw around with the world history, geography or politics simply because "they had a cool idea".
  
• 
  Thanks for having a staff that doesn't allow their personal politics and/or religious views to actually affect what an individual is "allowed" to rp (to my knowledge).
  

And especially...

Thanks for not giving up or lashing out when you work at your real life and deal with that, and then work on this MUD when you'd rather just be able to sit back and play, and someone comes along and tells you you're not working hard enough.

[Dakurus]

Thanks to the players that have the patience and expend the effort in making this such a wonderful game for their fellow player with little expectation and no promise of a return on that investment.

Thanks to the players that see the positives and appreciate the work that goes into this world, both by fellow players and staff.

Thanks to the players that are creative but flexible, realizing that not everything can be as good as we all wish.

Thanks to the players that shoulder responsibility, be it IC and OOC to help out.

Thanks to the players that keep coming back and enjoy themselves.

Your world isn't perfect.. but whose is?  This is a fabulous world.  There are fabulous ideas here, and if you can't roleplay without a staff member to help your plot along, or if you are fed up because X doesn't work as it should, then you need to spend some time on other muds, where dedicated rpers manage to pull off some amazing stories without any of the benefits that you get on Armageddon.  If they can manage to roll with the punches then I think that people here, who thus far seem to be a really high caliber of roleplayer, can handle the odd bug or lack of staff involvement. 

There's a lot to be thankful for here that many people who have been here a long time take for granted, I think.  Here are my thanks:

• Thanks for making a world that doesn't crash every other day and lose everyones items.
• Thanks for a world that is run by a "staff" instead of "Gods", and that apparently a (relatively) sane staff that shares the goals of the players - to make a great place for writers and roleplayers and mudders.
  
• Thanks to Those in Power for not deleting everyones items randomly because you frustrated with your life.
  
• Thanks for pushing yourselves to make the mud better, and make an entirely new one after all this time
  
• 
  Thanks for giving me an opportunity to not only indulge my roleplaying needs but for giving me all these cool tools to do it with.
  
• 
  Thanks for giving people a chance to prove their quality through their rp and maturity - even if not every great scene or mature act can be witnessed - instead of rewarding people for "donating" money or winning an arm-wrestling contest at a player meet.
  
• 
  Thanks for being there to help move plots along at all, instead of working on making yourself a cool new area with great gear and not telling anyone about it until your PC has harvested it to death...
  
• 
  Thanks for having a staff that people want to have involved in their plots, rather than a staff that you sincerely hope won't do anything "creative" and screw around with the world history, geography or politics simply because "they had a cool idea".
  
• 
  Thanks for having a staff that doesn't allow their personal politics and/or religious views to actually affect what an individual is "allowed" to rp (to my knowledge).
  

And especially...

Thanks for not giving up or lashing out when you work at your real life and deal with that, and then work on this MUD when you'd rather just be able to sit back and play, and someone comes along and tells you you're not working hard enough.

[jstorrie]

I would have to say that rule #1 for enjoying Armageddon has less to do with immersion and ic/ooc separation than simply: assume good faith. Assume that other players are playing to have fun, too. Assume that staff are staffing to apply themselves in ways that interest them. Do not assume that any player or staff member or group thereof wants to dick you around.

I remember a few months back when there was a real dry spell in Tuluk and I had complaints about players and staff which I vented in all directions for a bit–but staff members (& Sanvean especially) did address my actual concerns politely and quickly. It's safe to assume that the staff of Armageddon wants people to have fun, so don't be too hard on them. Managing one great game and building another at the same time is tough, right?

Conversely I think that very blunt complaints such as the op's are perfectly tolerable, and we should assume he's not trying to dick us around, either–when quality drops in the game, it may be an honest mistake but it's also frustrating. So! Common ground? Productive discourse? Yeah? Pals?

[staggerlee]

That's crazy talk jstorrie!  But you're right.  I find that as I mature as a muder I've more and more learned that what you just described is the number one way to ensure I get a quality experience out of the mud.  It's honestly incredible the difference that attitude makes.

And I also wanted to agree with Silverfaune. As someone who hasn't been playing that long I've had amazing experiences in the game, met some great rpers and had good experiences with the staff.

I don't want to diminish from anyone's legitimate concerns, but I would suggest that taking them to the staff in a less public manner would get more positive results, rather than putting them on the defense in a public forum and generally displaying the game in a poor light for players old and new.

[Malken]

Sanvean is a Saint.

(I don't want to take anything away from the other Staffers!)

But there's always this feeling that "Everything will be alright" when I see Sanvean around often. (Like she is lately on the GDB.)

[X-D]

Grins.

For some reason or another once The matrix came out I always thought of Sanvean when seeing the oracle
Shoosh, it will be alright....Have a cookie.

[Bebop]

Your world isn't perfect.. but whose is?  This is a fabulous world.  There are fabulous ideas here, and if you can't roleplay without a staff member to help your plot along, or if you are fed up because X doesn't work as it should, then you need to spend some time on other muds, where dedicated rpers manage to pull off some amazing stories without any of the benefits that you get on Armageddon.  If they can manage to roll with the punches then I think that people here, who thus far seem to be a really high caliber of roleplayer, can handle the odd bug or lack of staff involvement. 

There's a lot to be thankful for here that many people who have been here a long time take for granted, I think.  Here are my thanks:

• Thanks for making a world that doesn't crash every other day and lose everyones items.
• Thanks for a world that is run by a "staff" instead of "Gods", and that apparently a (relatively) sane staff that shares the goals of the players - to make a great place for writers and roleplayers and mudders.
  
• Thanks to Those in Power for not deleting everyones items randomly because you frustrated with your life.
  
• Thanks for pushing yourselves to make the mud better, and make an entirely new one after all this time
  
• 
  Thanks for giving me an opportunity to not only indulge my roleplaying needs but for giving me all these cool tools to do it with.
  
• 
  Thanks for giving people a chance to prove their quality through their rp and maturity - even if not every great scene or mature act can be witnessed - instead of rewarding people for "donating" money or winning an arm-wrestling contest at a player meet.
  
• 
  Thanks for being there to help move plots along at all, instead of working on making yourself a cool new area with great gear and not telling anyone about it until your PC has harvested it to death...
  
• 
  Thanks for having a staff that people want to have involved in their plots, rather than a staff that you sincerely hope won't do anything "creative" and screw around with the world history, geography or politics simply because "they had a cool idea".
  
• 
  Thanks for having a staff that doesn't allow their personal politics and/or religious views to actually affect what an individual is "allowed" to rp (to my knowledge).
  

And especially...

Thanks for not giving up or lashing out when you work at your real life and deal with that, and then work on this MUD when you'd rather just be able to sit back and play, and someone comes along and tells you you're not working hard enough.

I know I for one am thankful for the staff.  But I think that issue here is that some of the players that have been here for a handful of years (and some way more than that) that were here before the game change announcement see the way the game was one way, and how the game is now.  We as players have spent a lot of time into this game and I think it's hard on some of us when we see what seems to be a visible decrease in attention to the current incarnation of the game.  The game is good now, but I guess some of us think it was better before and find it frustrating.  Maybe there were always these issues, but now that the game is going down we are attributing it to that but I don't think that's it, at least not entirely.  And I think we -have- lost some players, IMMs and policies that were assests to the game and that is hard for some of us to deal with.  It doesn't mean the game is not enjoyable or that people are ungrateful (though I suppose some are).  I think it's more of a feeling of frustration/helplessness/sadness.  I understand the staff is important but I don't think that people have the right to come down on players for expressing their feelings of frustration.  We devote a lot of time to this game too and I thought that Throttle's concerns were valid and civil.  I have a few books and games that I love, that have made a difference in my life.  If I was reading through 1984 and got to the end and suddenly the vocabulary become overly comprehensive, if there were typos towards the end and suddenly the protganist busts out and kills that one dood at the end with guns or something in an overly spammy way, that would ruin the entire story for me.  Think about that.  Think about how people are feeling about an ending to a story they have devoted many, MANY hours to over the progress of ten years.  You can say "it's just a game" but it is a big deal.  I for one have spent many an hour over the process of three years playing this game and at least Throttle (even though he says he doesn't) cares enough to come in and post his concerns.

The end can make or break the story.... and it's hard to see it ending like this.

[Rhyden]

Bebop pretty much sums up my thoughts.

It is sad to see the old game winding to an eventual end and it's probably true that Armageddon 1 isn't getting as much attention cause little baby Armageddon 2 was just introduced! I've noticed a few problems here and there, but nothing major that I've noticed is really interfering.

[Nyr]

Silverfaune, thanks for that post, especially:

Thanks for not giving up or lashing out when you work at your real life and deal with that, and then work on this MUD when you'd rather just be able to sit back and play, and someone comes along and tells you you're not working hard enough.

That gives me some perspective.  Thanks.  You rock.

[Only He Stands There]

Gotta jump on the "awesome staff" bandwagon. If you'd have posted this six or eight months ago, I would have agreed. At this point, though? I'm seeing some of the best staff interaction I've ever had, special thanks to my clan imms (you know who you are <3).

Kudos all around.

[th3kaiser]

Gotta jump on the "awesome staff" bandwagon. If you'd have posted this six or eight months ago, I would have agreed. At this point, though? I'm seeing some of the best staff interaction I've ever had, special thanks to my clan imms (you know who you are <3).

Kudos all around.

Concurrence.

[Yam]

I will never forgive Sanvean for disallowing the use of "breed", "boy", and "girl" as sDesc words.

Everyone else is cool though. Good job.

[Rindan]

I have only played sporadically due to RL issues taking higher priority (anyone need want to hire a chemical engineer in Boston or California?).  That said, when I was playing heavier my real complaint really wasn't in the code.  There are bugs in the game and there always have been.  The code is best it has ever been in my opinion.

What really bothers me when I play is the quality of RP and the coherence of the world.  I really am not pointing fingers because I don't know where to point.  I don't know if it is just that many old players have left and taken their b00t of justice with them, if there is a n00b influx, or if it is because the staff isn't handing out spankings as liberally as it used to.  My complaint is that the atmosphere has taken a sharp turn for the worst in the places I have played in.  Where there used to be strong culture and biases, everyone and their dog is an exception.  I feel like a total freak playing your average Amos biggot Allanaki at times.

I think what really struck it home for me was when I was pissing around the Gaj and a southern Byner started talking shit about northies.  The conversation was something to the extent of "yeah, maybe they are allies now, but they will backstab the first chance they get, they are barbarians, their nobles are low blooded scum who are not bowed to, etc".  Two things struck me about the scene.  First, I didn't realize how utterly rare such a scene was until I saw it.  I realized that I had not seen a fellow openly average Allanaki is ages.  Second, I was really annoyed that everyone else in the room seemed to find these statements somehow abhorrent.  I was waiting for someone to suggest that maybe Allanak needs a bill of rights and elections.

It isn't just this one scene, it is much of the game in general.  Hell, you see it on the boards when you have newer players saying they don't see it as odd or wrong that the game might be crawling with magikers.  There are a dozen little things I could point out from how nobles and templars are treated and treat others, to how other races are treated, to how magikers and foreigners are dealt with.  One their own, each of these little things wouldn't bother me.  The occasional 'mold break' has never been unusual in Armageddon.  What bothers me is when I see all these things together, and the people 'breaking the mold' are not rare, but the majority.  You see people occasionally fighting the tide trying to instill more "normal" behavior, but it is an uphill struggle being performed by too few people with apparently no results.

I don't know who to point the finger at, be it staff for not spanking more often or elder players getting slack and failing to set an example, but I personally find this the most disheartening part of the game.  I always loved the strong anti-D&D and anti-western liberalism themes of game.  Zalanthas was a place where you could experience cruel injustice, racism, violence, unreasoning bigotry, low fantasy, and nasty Templars looking to make you miserable for misery's sake.  I miss the socially brutal and harsh aspect of the game.  My two greatest fears is that this trend will continue in the current game and be dragged over into the second game.

I don't mean to knock the current game.  I love it, I have fun, and the staff has done some awesome stuff in the past couple of years in terms of coded improvements and acting like decent and fair humans.  That said, I think the game has lost a fair amount of its shine (or is it grim?) in the past year or so, and I really don't think it is just irrational nostalgia on my part.

[Dresan]

As i read these posts what i find sad is how the Arm community focus has shifted towards being more code centric and has become even more so since the Arm2 announcement. Its also because of that more and more  newer players are popping up who are more focused on what was always considered the weakest part of Armageddon MUD. 

Sparring is boring, killing NPC  or 'hunting' the is boring, sitting around craft then selling to npc is boring. All these are generally code centic activities and they are generally boring/tedious, other Muds will always do it better and yet its boring there too, no amount of code will change this and it won't change with Arm 2. 

Why, because Arm has never been about the code and never will...

Character development is interesting
Relationships are interesting/enjoyable
Reading room and character descriptions is wonderful
Watching your PC panick as you threaten to kill them is fun
Looting your corpse is real fun
Mudsexxing is fun
Chatting/interacting before and after a plot/death is fun
Plotting itself is alot of fun.

The best parts of the game require almost no code other then the diku basics. It doesn't matter if in Arm2  you'll be able to be a hunter/mage and kill  carru v.2 2X quicker but how your character feels,deals with it, how it effect how other look at him/her etc etc. Yes code sometimes benifits/encourages the RP and good code is always a plus but lets not forget that 80% of the time with exception to speaking and emoting we are rarely using the rest of the code, its just never been that important for this game and never really will.

That said, thank you staff for keeping the most important aspect of the game going as strong if not stronger then ever, esspecially now with all thats going on. I never thought i would see the day when kanks would die off, for those that don't understand, skill-wise it would be like warriors/rangers losing the ability to use swords, to me at least. And thank you Sanvean, for fixing that echo, not only does it reaffirm that kanks, a much loved theme/creature in the game, have truely become rare/extinct but as a player who enjoys walking around and taking a few minutes of to read room descs in what should be familar places to him by now, fixng something like that is just as important if not more so then fixing a piece of code i would probably ICly just shrug off as a failure.

--------------------

Now since the above is more of a derail/rant to the original topic, let me just say this, (esspecialy since everyone thinking in terms of code as opposed to RP) code wise if the poison+throw code were really working and effective then you can pretty much bet everyone and their mothers would be loaded with cures. Therefore wouldn't be the best method to kill a PC, NPC wise persistance will eventually bring it down in anyways. Nothing major is broken and if you think about it all the code needs upgrading and the best solution is to rebuild from scratch.

Personally i think the overall code is fine and think the new Arm2 world could just be built on top of it and thereby being able to play it quicker but true benifit of rebuilding the code is that i hopefully have the time to explore ever inch of the old world. 

[Fathi]

Gotta jump on the "awesome staff" bandwagon. If you'd have posted this six or eight months ago, I would have agreed. At this point, though? I'm seeing some of the best staff interaction I've ever had, special thanks to my clan imms (you know who you are <3).

Kudos all around.

Concurrence.

At least where I'm playing, the game is more special and dynamic and interesting than it has been since I started. I'd like to extend this thank-you to also include the PLAYERS that I play with on a regular basis (and even some I don't) who put so much effort into making things happen and keeping the game from getting stagnant.

I will agree that there have been sometimes I've been more than frustrated when, for a while, seemingly every proposal I made to my clan and every complaint I filed was met with "this is not a priority for Arm 1, but thanks for your concern." But since the new staff was indoctrinated, I've seen a lot less of it.

I do feel that some areas of the game have suffered, and I'll even say that some seem damn near irrevocably BROKEN, since the announcement. However, working our way past that is just as much the players' responsibility as it is the staff's. Administrators could run out and fix every bug, smooth over every problem, grant every request, accept every application... but as players, if we want things to get better, we should meet them halfway.

Granted, that doesn't apply to situations like bash/poison bugs or the code, but there are many instances (I wish I could offer examples, but I can't think of any that aren't quite current and revealing) where the things we see as "staff letting the world get stagnant" could be shaped and reshaped by us, the players. Sure, we can't make permanent changes to the game world's rooms and descs and we can't make new objects or NPCs, but that's the beautiful thing about Armageddon: if you're bound and determined to shake shit up, it's possible WITHOUT all of those resources.

And hell, this is something I've come to realise personally in the last month or so of the game: one of the best ways to draw staff attention (however unwelcome) is to just cause conflict with your character rather than emailing or requesting that they initiate things.

[Vanth]

But to be honest, I see things like fixing the echos to areas to remove kank and I cannot help but wonder why time was spent on that rather then fixing Bash....or poison/throw what have you.

[snip]

How can fixing an environmental echo be more important then fixing a PC/NPC skill?

It's not more important.  The difference is, fixing a room echo can be done by a ST with 1 day experience as a staff member, by typing about 3 commands. 

Fixing the code requires a coder with machine access who knows the right language (i.e. is it a scripting issue or is in in the hard code?).  This is a much smaller group of people who are (rightly, IMO) focused on bringing 2.0 to you in a timely fashion.

[Edit: Note To Self: Read Entire Thread Before Posting, Vanth.]

[Vanth]

What really bothers me when I play is the quality of RP and the coherence of the world.  I really am not pointing fingers because I don't know where to point.  I don't know if it is just that many old players have left and taken their b00t of justice with them, if there is a n00b influx, or if it is because the staff isn't handing out spankings as liberally as it used to.  My complaint is that the atmosphere has taken a sharp turn for the worst in the places I have played in.  Where there used to be strong culture and biases, everyone and their dog is an exception.  I feel like a total freak playing your average Amos biggot Allanaki at times.

In response to this and the other mentions of gaps in staff presence:

Yes, we had a lapse.  In the months following the announcement that we'd be creating Arm 2, we had a number of staff leave, some related to the announcement, others for the usual RL stuff that crops up.  It took some time for us to get back up to speed, and we thank you for being patient with us during that time.

But our presence is only a part of the situation you describe.  I think that staff are actually much more involved in the gameworld now than they were when I started playing this game.

I think the "everyone plays the exception, not the rule" situation is due in large part to the "omgz teh sky is falling" mentality of people wanting to play those far-out concepts that they always wanted to play -someday- and with the announcement that the game would be coming down, they decided that someday was today.

[Kalden]

I agree with those that say we need to step back and look at the long-term changes in the game. When I first started playing here there were more bugs and pretty much no code innovations. In recent times we've gotten the watch skill, hide/sneak has been strengthened greatly, and numerous code bugs and flaws have been fixed. I've just gotta say I love and appreciate the work that the current staff are doing.

I also agree with Rindan that some of the problems are not with code. They're with the RP environment, and the blame lies partly on players. But I also get the feeling that the staff isn't really thinking with the virtual world in mind, and instead they're distracted by uber hugeworld magick plots that don't make a ton of sense. Why did the gith invade Allanak, for example? Why did these silt giants take over Red Storm East? Sometimes it seems like it's just stuff happening for no reason, but if all these things could be tied together (and maybe they are), it would be much more interesting. And the virtual, macro effects of these events should be played up. As I mentioned in a thread earlier, if there's a famine and bread is in really tight supply, then people are either starving or not. I shouldn't have to waste valuable staff time coordinating an IC investigation into something that should be obvious. The staff also seem to be overly reluctant to animate avatars from key clans. Hopefully when they're less distracted building the new game we can have some staffers who just enjoy animating important and sometimes unimportant NPCs, sometimes to do stuff or to remind characters of certain facts.

Players grow up, graduate from school, and get full-time jobs and kids. Some of these players were outstanding roleplayers, and the loss of even a few great dedicated players can have a major impact. However, I'd still say that the RP quality is fairly solid. I've had a great time lately. Sometimes when you remember things, you remember them better than they actually were. I don't think Rindan is right: northerners and elves are still treated as harshly as I've ever seen in my years in Armageddon. I shouldn't point fingers maybe but there's always a certain sector of players who are worse than others in prejudice.

A lot of people talk about the magicker problem. Offhand, I agree that we should do something to tip the balance so that people play less magickers, although I'm not really seeing enough magickers right now to justify a ton of complaints. I took a year off so I probably missed the huge magicker population that was driving this anger.

[Barzalene]

I will never forgive Sanvean for disallowing the use of "breed", "boy", and "girl" as sDesc words.

Everyone else is cool though. Good job.

But allowing maiden! Ugh! I hate maiden!

[Folker]

What are you talking about? I recall seeing 'breeds' in game. And Sanvean's a twink, she stole all those chests while being eatherial. Muhahah! .

As for the original post. I dont know what the author's talking about. I know muds that you have to pay to play that got less attention then 1.Arm does from staff. Perhaps I'm simply not unaware of something, but if 'all' code development stopped for Arm.1, it would still be enough to last for a long time. Minus the bugs that affectively 'crush' the game.

[brytta.leofa]

But allowing maiden! Ugh! I hate maiden!

Yes!  How can you tell whether someone is a maiden just by looking(*) at her?

(*) Please, no helpful suggestions, Angela Christine.

[Silverfaune]

I will never forgive Sanvean for disallowing the use of "breed", "boy", and "girl" as sDesc words.

Everyone else is cool though. Good job.

But allowing maiden! Ugh! I hate maiden!

Why is boy and girl not allowed in sdesc anyways?  I was wondering that.  I tend to shy away from "maiden" since it doesn't, to me, seem a very oft-used (or appropriate) word in this world

[Marauder Moe]

Because boy and girl refer to children, and in Zalanthas a child is someone younger than ~13 years old (or racial equivalent), and we're not allowed to make characters less than 13 years old.

[Silverfaune]

Because boy and girl refer to children, and in Zalanthas a child is someone younger than ~13 years old (or racial equivalent), and we're not allowed to make characters less than 13 years old.

Thanks.. I suppose that makes sense.  To me it seems like it can describe the feminine form of "youth" just as much as "child". 

And I hated the sway towards "politically" correct rp on my previous muds and sadly I have been guilty of it here.. primarily because it seems that everyone I come across so far is pretty tolerant of magickers, foreigners or lower-class people.  I will strive to be far more provincial and ignorant and intolerant in my future rp   It's more fun that way anyways.  If we all get along where will we get the foils for our characters?  We can't always have a gith wander in to focus our conflicts on.

[Marauder Moe]

Well it's not so much about political correctness as it is there was a trend for characters described as "boy" or "girl" to act like spoiled Earth children/tweens.

[Sanvean]

What Moe said. We were having too many problems with people running impish moppets and the like -- tried to rein it in with feedback and board discussions about it, and finally just had to say okay, no more.

[Akaramu]

I'd guess the reason why some things, like the brew code, never got fixed is that they would require a much bigger code overhaul (like the crimcode) than many other fixes. With entirely new code in 2.0, it will be easier to adress those points. It could also be that bigger fixes depend on the motivation of some staff members who one day decide they really want to adress (insert problem here), knowing it will be very time consuming. Who was it again that invested so much effort into wagoncrafting? 

Also, listen to Moe, he's the man. 

[Yam]

What Moe said. We were having too many problems with people running impish moppets and the like -- tried to rein it in with feedback and board discussions about it, and finally just had to say okay, no more.

Will you reallow use of those keywords if I promise to kill any unrealistic teenager with extreme prejudice and lack of emoting?

[Sanvean]

It's tempting to let you become my personal Angel of Death, particularly because the thought of an Angel of Death named "Yam" is kinda awesome, but I must refrain.

The problem, to be fair, wasn't only the players running the adorable, tousle-haired cherubims, but other players interacting with them in the same manner.

[The7DeadlyVenomz]

You mean like:
The crusty old, greyed man touchs the lithe gold-haired boy indecently?

Yeh, I can understand erradicating those words.

[brytta.leofa]

Gesturing furtively towards the adorable, tousle-haired cherubim, you whisper to the dirty, scar-faced female, in rinthi-accented sirihish,
  "How long 's it been since we et stew, eh?"
Shaking her head slightly, the dirty, scar-faced female whispers to you, in rinthi-accented sirihish,
  "Make too much squawk.  Better we get us a rat an' two, ain't it."
Hissing vigorously, you whisper to the dirty, scar-faced female, in rinthi-accented sirihish,
  "En't he weigh more'n four tenners!  How much he *cain* squawk?"

[Lizzie]

Some thoughts:

1) The silt giants taking over RSE didn't happen "for no reason." Stuff happened, and the giants ended up on that end of the sea as a direct result of stuff happening.

2) I can't speak for other people, but I can speak for myself, having read documents about the city governments...my character is likely to keep his mouth shut about any complaints about northerners in the south, because the Templars have decreed that northerners are welcome in the south. Personally, in my character's humble opinion, it's probably not a good idea to question the judgement of a templar out loud, in public. Much healthier to either pretend you don't hear someone else complaining, or pretend to disagree and say "But the Templars say they're A-OK therefore they MUST be A-OK and you should just shut up about it you big meanie-head!"

3) Almost any instance of "going against the grain" when it comes to political situations is probably the result of "Fear of Templars." If you want to treat a gemmer badly while you're in Allanak, go ahead. But my character will probably not risk the ire of the Templarate - which in its collective wisdom not only allows them to exist, but has built them a damned good looking quarter for them to live in.

4) The gith didn't invade Allanak for no good reason. There was a pretty significant story behind all that. Or rather, a couple of stories that I know of, that seemed to overlap each other at times.

As for the primary thing in this thread, I can't complain too loudly because I just haven't been here long enough to see what it was like "before." I've played games with MUCH worse staff response, and I've played games with better. I've played games where there was more response, but the response usually ended up being "real soon now" which would result in uproarious laughter from the peanut gallery and the sound of heads pounding on brick walls in frustration.

In all, I don't think the Armageddon staff is doing bad at all with v-1, though I would like to see a couple of things addressed that I've noticed, and I've noticed no change on, since I started playing over a year ago.

[Simple]

What Moe said. We were having too many problems with people running impish moppets and the like -- tried to rein it in with feedback and board discussions about it, and finally just had to say okay, no more.

Will you reallow use of those keywords if I promise to kill any unrealistic teenager with extreme prejudice and lack of emoting?

You could play that new executioner guild.

[Cerelum]

Are you kidding me, there is a guild called executioner?  I need to read on the wiki

J-rod

[Simple]

Are you kidding me, there is a guild called executioner?  I need to read on the wiki

J-rod

http://www.zalanthas.org/gdb/index.php/topic,29335.0.html

[Southie]

Is it clear in some ways that the staff's attention is divided? Yes. But the game has also been more interesting to me, and more dynamic, than I have seen it in a long while. It certainly is not as if the staff is ignoring the game and leaving the players free to pervert it away from what it was. Instead, I see this as a transition into a new chapter (perhaps the last chapter) of Zalanthas, and that transition brings with it changes in some of the things we knew and took for granted. I'm glad the game can evolve and I embrace many of the culture changes and their consequences for what they are. As rosy as old memories are, keeping things static for too long gets old.

[Rindan]

2) I can't speak for other people, but I can speak for myself, having read documents about the city governments...my character is likely to keep his mouth shut about any complaints about northerners in the south, because the Templars have decreed that northerners are welcome in the south. Personally, in my character's humble opinion, it's probably not a good idea to question the judgement of a templar out loud, in public. Much healthier to either pretend you don't hear someone else complaining, or pretend to disagree and say "But the Templars say they're A-OK therefore they MUST be A-OK and you should just shut up about it you big meanie-head!"

3) Almost any instance of "going against the grain" when it comes to political situations is probably the result of "Fear of Templars." If you want to treat a gemmer badly while you're in Allanak, go ahead. But my character will probably not risk the ire of the Templarate - which in its collective wisdom not only allows them to exist, but has built them a damned good looking quarter for them to live in.

There is a vast gulf of difference between terror of templars and snuggling up with every single gemmed and northie you run across. 

First, I would prefer people to respond to the terror of Templars when they start instilling terror.  If Templars start decapitating people for getting into a bar fight with a northerner, great, it is time for an attitude adjustment.  On the other hand, if your city has been at war with Tuluk with 2000 fucking years, and been terrified by magikers for since the dawn of time, maybe instant tolerance and love isn't the proper response.

Second, there is a massive gulf of difference between "tolerance" and cuddly love.  Blacks were "tolerated" after the end of slavery.  Jews were "tolerated" in Germany in 1939.  Neo-Nazi's are "tolerated" in the US.  That didn't mean that it was socially okay to go be their friends.  You can be completely intolerant and still be hostile, or at the very least give off bad vibes.  Allanak still has social taboos, even if the Templars have stated that you can't stab northerners for fun and profit in the streets. 

Pissing away a few thousand years of violent hostility in a few years is is silly.  Hell,  half of the fun in Allanak and Tuluk uniting to go do whatever is the fact that the citizens of the respective city states hate each other with a burning passion and work together completely without trust or friendship.  There should a relationship that is fraught with tension and deep unease.  Now, I am not criticizing any plots.  I don't play any knowing part in any of them and so I have no idea what the back room politics is.  What I do see is the bar room politics of it, and it shouldn't be so damn fluffy, especially in Allanak.  In Tuluk you might justify some sort of subtle BS about not displaying too much, but not in Allanak.

Personally, I blame leaders, and to a lesser extent, everyone.  Everyone is responsible for maintaining an atmosphere other than a happy huggy liberal society.  Leaders in particular are responsible for making sure that their underlings don't act like asses in public and bring shame to their own name.  Staff is responsible for smacking people appropriately when things get really out of hand.  Templars are there to put the fear of God King in people.  All the other schmucks should be there to do their own best to keep the game gritty and away from some happy socially liberal democracy.

I personally think more spanking paddles are called for all around.

[Troicha]

2) I can't speak for other people, but I can speak for myself, having read documents about the city governments...my character is likely to keep his mouth shut about any complaints about northerners in the south, because the Templars have decreed that northerners are welcome in the south. Personally, in my character's humble opinion, it's probably not a good idea to question the judgement of a templar out loud, in public. Much healthier to either pretend you don't hear someone else complaining, or pretend to disagree and say "But the Templars say they're A-OK therefore they MUST be A-OK and you should just shut up about it you big meanie-head!"

3) Almost any instance of "going against the grain" when it comes to political situations is probably the result of "Fear of Templars." If you want to treat a gemmer badly while you're in Allanak, go ahead. But my character will probably not risk the ire of the Templarate - which in its collective wisdom not only allows them to exist, but has built them a damned good looking quarter for them to live in.

There is a vast gulf of difference between terror of templars and snuggling up with every single gemmed and northie you run across. 

First, I would prefer people to respond to the terror of Templars when they start instilling terror.  If Templars start decapitating people for getting into a bar fight with a northerner, great, it is time for an attitude adjustment.  On the other hand, if your city has been at war with Tuluk with 2000 fucking years, and been terrified by magikers for since the dawn of time, maybe instant tolerance and love isn't the proper response.

Second, there is a massive gulf of difference between "tolerance" and cuddly love.  Blacks were "tolerated" after the end of slavery.  Jews were "tolerated" in Germany in 1939.  Neo-Nazi's are "tolerated" in the US.  That didn't mean that it was socially okay to go be their friends.  You can be completely intolerant and still be hostile, or at the very least give off bad vibes.  Allanak still has social taboos, even if the Templars have stated that you can't stab northerners for fun and profit in the streets. 

Pissing away a few thousand years of violent hostility in a few years is is silly.  Hell,  half of the fun in Allanak and Tuluk uniting to go do whatever is the fact that the citizens of the respective city states hate each other with a burning passion and work together completely without trust or friendship.  There should a relationship that is fraught with tension and deep unease.  Now, I am not criticizing any plots.  I don't play any knowing part in any of them and so I have no idea what the back room politics is.  What I do see is the bar room politics of it, and it shouldn't be so damn fluffy, especially in Allanak.  In Tuluk you might justify some sort of subtle BS about not displaying too much, but not in Allanak.

Personally, I blame leaders, and to a lesser extent, everyone.  Everyone is responsible for maintaining an atmosphere other than a happy huggy liberal society.  Leaders in particular are responsible for making sure that their underlings don't act like asses in public and bring shame to their own name.  Staff is responsible for smacking people appropriately when things get really out of hand.  Templars are there to put the fear of God King in people.  All the other schmucks should be there to do their own best to keep the game gritty and away from some happy socially liberal democracy.

I personally think more spanking paddles are called for all around.

Rindan, thank you for this post.

[The7DeadlyVenomz]

Hell,  half of the fun in Allanak and Tuluk uniting to go do whatever is the fact that the citizens of the respective city states hate each other with a burning passion and work together completely without trust or friendship.  There should a relationship that is fraught with tension and deep unease. 

This is a very good point.

[Gimfalisette]

Personally, I blame leaders, and to a lesser extent, everyone.  Everyone is responsible for maintaining an atmosphere other than a happy huggy liberal society.  Leaders in particular are responsible for making sure that their underlings don't act like asses in public and bring shame to their own name.  Staff is responsible for smacking people appropriately when things get really out of hand.  Templars are there to put the fear of God King in people.  All the other schmucks should be there to do their own best to keep the game gritty and away from some happy socially liberal democracy.

I personally think more spanking paddles are called for all around.

Yes, AND. Leaders aren't always around to see their minions acting like asses. Tattling on people who are being stupid, to their bosses, is a perfectly valid Allanaki sport. So is spreading rumors that will get back to the leaders. Or heck, bribe a leader to make a public example of someone you don't like and/or you want people to be less tolerant of. (Maybe the leader will do so, or maybe you'll get a private explanation of the politics behind why that can't happen.) Sure, these are semi-political tools, but they work. Use them to correct behavior you don't like.

[Salt Merchant]

I don't believe the hatred between the populaces can be so virulent as some people describe. This piece of information must be well known enough to be postable here: there is a visible stream of Allanaki refugees moving into Tuluk, with no sign of the Tuluki doing any less than accepting them in.

[Dresan]

I think my feelings are clear code wise, plot-wise i think the staff has been working real hard, i take a peek at the IC boards and thats more then clear, good job in that regard imo. I think individual players still roleplays their character wonderfully, their emotes, the way they speak, the quality in that regular has never gone down at least to me. If i was a newbie, i could still sit in a bar and i'd be astonished at the roleplaying

However, i agree somewhat with Rindan, mostly in regards to how people should be treating specific groups or individuals but this has been slowly creeping up on to the game for a while and i think its slowly been getting worse.  I kinda started seeing it with the surge in half-elves, there were alot more in the taverns so some players began using this as an excuse to get friendly with them, shrugging off what the documents say about hating breeds. This wasn't as huge of deal to many, some threads and reminders from the staff popped up and eventually people forgot about it and moved on. However same happened when there was suddenly a surge of magickers running around. With alot of magickal character some people tried using this as an excuse to become friendlier with them and treat magick as a common thing. Not to get too off topic but the only problem that I had was not that there were too many magickers but that alot of them were just struting down the road or being very open about their abilities, i had no probelms with 'secret' magickers. Luckily that has cooled down and at least i don't see it often anymore but i find people are still talking about magickal occurances like everyday common things.

AmosA: "Hey, just came from a hunt, encounter not two but three magickal creatures X."
AmosB: "Oh yeah, hmm, so what you do?"
AmosA: "Meh nothing, just tried to smack them around a bit before i ran away, fuckin' magickers"
AmosB: "Not bad, but hey more importantly, did you check out the new waitress' ass?"

Still once again we had people using excuses (sometimes OOC and sometimes IC related) to try to circumvent the docs on how to feel about something, in the case above  magicks. It seems that Rindian posted another example of people trying to avoid document described conflict that should exsist in most characters regardless of most IC or OOC circumstances. I don't completely agree with Vanth, just because i don't feel people are thinking their characters -are- the exception when they act this way but more around the lines of; ' because this is the situation (again ICly or OOCly related) this is what the 'norm' should be because its much funner for me that way'.

Personally, I blame leaders, and to a lesser extent, everyone.  Everyone is responsible for maintaining an atmosphere other than a happy huggy liberal society.  Leaders in particular are responsible for making sure that their underlings don't act like asses in public and bring shame to their own name.  Staff is responsible for smacking people appropriately when things get really out of hand.  Templars are there to put the fear of God King in people.  All the other schmucks should be there to do their own best to keep the game gritty and away from some happy socially liberal democracy.

In general i think more and more people are less willing to cause conflicts of any kind esspecially ones that might end the life or in anyway hurt their characters , i think alot of people are still trying to keep their character healthy, safe and strong for the 'end of days' even though that could be years away . I still see one or two players trying to make the effort though, going out of their way in the happy-go lucky atmosphere to make conflict for the single southern/breed in a northern bar or vise versa. Its always refreshing to see and reminds you of what Arm really is, much kudos there...but it feels these are almost special events.

So who is to blame exactly? In my opinion everyone, not really the leaders in anyway but everyone is a bit to blame, from the staff to the players. The staff needs to make sure the feelings of the virtual masses be know all and the players who know better, need to do the right thing and stand up for the Spirit of Armageddon regardless of the IC consequences. Its unfortunately not always an easy thing to do though. 

I personally think more spanking paddles are called for all around.

Yes please.

In a southern tavern: 2 northern PCs+ 3 (northern loving) southern PC < 1 (northern hating) southern PC + the hating virtual masses.

[Tarx]

Just remember it's a lot more fun for everyone if you play a prejudiced character that is not the exception to the rule in social situations.

[Mood]

Just remember it's a lot more fun for everyone if you play a prejudiced character that is not the exception to the rule in social situations.

Until your entire clan starts giving you shit for starting bar fights, and being mean to the elves. Sure, the conflict might be fun for awhile... but then you just get tired of swimming upstream.

[Akaramu]

Remember, visible conflict is not the only way to adhere a bit more to the docs. Instead of beating the elf to a pulp, you could simply go sit at a different table with your friends, and then exchange dirty elf jokes. Whisper them if your friends are afraid of the little elfie. 

Or simply ignore anything that magicker says, if it gets too much, go somewhere else and complain about the damned magickers in your favourite bar as soon as it is safe to complain.

I still consider open, friendly socializing with outcasts as the only way to deal with the trend extremely silly.

[manonfire]

I don't really run into this problem too often, but if I -did-, I'd probably wish up to have the point reinforced by an immortal.

Code Select Expand

wish all There's a bit of undue gemmer love going on the the Gaj. My character responded accordingly, but for some reason, <so and so> is gushing love at <random elkrosian waxing about how awesome it is to roast a scrab with lightning bolts>.

The scruffy-ass bartender says to <elkrosian>, "Y'know we ain't keen on hearin' that nonsense here, boy. Best take your ass elswhere."


[Supreme Allah]

As per usual, Rindan has hit the nail on the head. 1.Arm has degenerated a bit, but in my opinion it has little or nothing to do with the staff's focus being turned upon 2.Arm.  If the playerbase truly wants to get Arm back to its previous state, then if you ask me it needs to take a long look in the mirror.

Over the past year or two I've noticed a steady decline in emotes and average Amoses, while a steady rise in magickers and "tell man Where's Jimmy at?" as opposed to "tell man (levelling an icy gaze upon !man, a hand resting coolly on the hilt of ~sword) Where's Jimmy at?" I've seen a steady rise in making an excuse to go out and kill something or crank those leet magick skillz and a steady decline in player-driven plotlines.

That's not to say that awesome roleplay's not out there anymore - I've seen plenty of evidence that it is - but it used to be everywhere in sight. You couldn't avoid it. Nowadays you have to go out and look for it, dodging pitfalls along the way. Leaderly PCs used to really set the tone and drive plots without the need of Imms to get overly involved at all - sometimes it felt like they were (with no complaints) simply reactive to what the world was doing on its own, because yes, the playerbase was THAT DAMN GOOD. The standard feels lower and I'm just hoping it'll return once 2.Arm comes around.

Yes, SOME of this may have to do with the end of the world coming, with people playing different guilds and such, and wanting to explore the code before it goes kaboom... but must flavorful, emotive roleplay be left at the wayside as a consequence? I don't think so. I think if someone played the hell out of their warrior and could make us envision his movements with every last swing of his coded sword, I think he could do the same as a Krathi calling up his coded burning death.

It just feels like he isn't anymore. It feels like he's spamwalking through town to get back to his temple and spamcast until an overworked, underappreciated Imm gives him something better to do. And when he walks through a tavern, there's no whispers or fear. People don't get up and leave when he sits in the next stool down. There's no stares or shouting when he whips his big flaming hammer of destruction out in plain sight somewhere.

I just hope the mystique, the bigotry, and the emotes come back soon, personally. Or in 2.Arm at least, if it's currently lost for good.

[Troicha]

Speaking as a middle-experience Arm player, let me just ask those who remember better times to please do one thing: show me.

No, I'm not ragging you with this, "Be the example," stuff. I seriously want to improve, especially if I'm part of the problem. So if you see me spamwalking or spamcasting or doing something elsewise stupid, show me better. I want to learn to be good enough to make the world come alive.

[Akaramu]

Speaking as a middle-experience Arm player, let me just ask those who remember better times to please do one thing: show me.

No, I'm not ragging you with this, "Be the example," stuff. I seriously want to improve, especially if I'm part of the problem. So if you see me spamwalking or spamcasting or doing something elsewise stupid, show me better. I want to learn to be good enough to make the world come alive.

Feel free to stick around my mundane PCs, they always die with shitty skills and lots of roleplay. 

With shitty I mean about 0-10skill practice sessions in 10 days playtime accumulared.

[Bebop]

I agree with Rindan too.

I HATE HATE HATE how acceptable magickers have become.  I know the Copper Wars changed a few folks mind in Allanak and even back three years ago when I started playing some leaders would rub elbows with them but even then behind closed doors it was obviously just for some political reason.  I remember helping kill a Whiran for a Tor, just because the Tor felt insulted.  I remember a Tor Warlord offering a bounty for a Krathi's head for going overboard on a cantrip in the Gaj.  I remember playing a character with a magicker mate who was constantly berrated, warned, gossiped about and ridiculed.  I want that kind of attitude back.

I remember having a half elf accused of pissing in the bakers flour by a Northern Noble.  Obviously there was no coded way possible to do this (I guess you could emote this) and off I was drug and berrated and fined.  I remember being made fun of in the Gaj by a unit of Byn for being a half elf, a half elf that would never speak out or defend themselves against "full blooded" people.

I MISS people using the docs for prejudice.  And acting like magickers are "no big deal" thing is getting on my nerves.

[Malken]

Why is there such a huge amount of people wanting more prejudice against magickers on the GDB and so few characters actually showing it in game? I don't understand that part... Is it because only 10% of the players actually read the GDB? Is it because a huge majority of the players just don't care much about the docs and prefer to have roleplaying partners where they are, no matter if they are elves/breeds/magickers?

This trend that has been going on about everyone agreeing that there should be more in your face prejudice in game and yet nothing much is changing in game, beside the one or two PCs that'll show up, do it, and quickly be pushed aside from the rest of the playerbase, just shows me that nothing will change unless the Staff comes down and starts giving us some real lessons and how it should be done via NPCs. You just can't trust the playerbase to change, in that way, anymore.

Like I said, I spent some time in Allanak a few weeks ago, maybe an hour or two, and I managed to see every docs being ignored in that small amount of time. Mundane guys hitting on a gemmer, some PC trying to 'save' and show love toward a 'rinthi scum, and some human girl fawning all over a breed (I would like to thank the gemmer, the 'rinthi scum and the breed for trying as hard as possible to play their roles properly, though, I see how hard it can be now when everyone is just ignoring what you truly are). All of this happened within -two- hours. Sure, you can all tell me an IC excuse for such behavior, and I won't have any choice but to accept it, but if everyone is the exception, and no one else wants to change, and, by the way, I don't think at this point that anyone will change in that way, I think it's time for the Staff, like I said a few months ago, to start teaching lessons on prejudice 101.

[staggerlee]

Speaking as a middle-experience Arm player, let me just ask those who remember better times to please do one thing: show me.

No, I'm not ragging you with this, "Be the example," stuff. I seriously want to improve, especially if I'm part of the problem. So if you see me spamwalking or spamcasting or doing something elsewise stupid, show me better. I want to learn to be good enough to make the world come alive.

I couldn't agree more.  Good rp feeds good rp, and I've been on both sides of that.
I've rped things and watched a few other people in the room suddenly start doing the same.  And I've also sat there letting something go totally over my head, and felt really embarrassed and stupid when someone else picked it up and went with it, then followed suit myself.

Reacting to the environment, playing with virtual npcs, fear of magickers, respect for nobility and any number of other things can be fixed by players, all it takes is you personally being willing to be the one to set a good example. I've seen numerous examples of that, and while people don't always pick up on it, like Troicha I'd really appreciate the heavy handed hints when I'm doing something wrong.

Everything I've learned about rp I learned from other players, and I've seen amazing changes in my own and other people's play when they had a good example to follow and learn from.

[Rarsh]

Speaking as a middle-experience Arm player, let me just ask those who remember better times to please do one thing: show me.

Speaking as a newbie Arm player, I couldn't agree more! If I weren't kinda obsessive and reading the GDB a lot, I'd have no clue that gemmers weren't almost totally acceptable in-game. The 'almost' being due to a well-played clan leader, who set a good example; but who also doesn't play much when I'm online. Also, I think this is tough for leaders sometime, because they're focused on results, and gemmers are wonderful tools to use to get those results. But I definitely feel I'm swimming upstream, so much so that, as a new player, I'm -still- not really sure what the common attitude is.

From what I've seen lately, gemmers are answerable to nobody except the highest authorities; they're more powerful than anyone but the highest authorities; and they're feared in much the same way that the highest authorities are. I kinda saw gemmers as inspiring as fear heavily tinged with disgust instead of templars, who inspire fear heavily tinged with awe, but that's a pretty fine distinction, and for a new player I often dunno how far to go. And often get smacked around IC if my PC is too much of a hater--or takes his own fear of the gemmed too far.

I seriously want to improve, especially if I'm part of the problem. So if you see me spamwalking or spamcasting or doing something elsewise stupid, show me better. I want to learn to be good enough to make the world come alive.

I also heartily agree with this part. It's really hard to stop being stupid when you aren't aware that's what you're doing! So if I'm screwing up, tell me. Or tell the staff to tell me, or however that works here.

Honestly, one great and memorable interaction (for me; I bet the leader already forgot!) with a clan leader early on helped more than any number of GDB posts.

[Supreme Allah]

I know it's easier to mimic when it's all going around you already, but if you know how it's supposed to be, try and be examples yourselves. The "standard" reaction to a gemmer sitting at the same bar you were at, back in the day, was something along the lines of:

l woman (casting a glance and a friendly smile aside)
pem brow rises a little as his eyes narrow on %woman gem, and he pulls a slight face, smile fading immediately.
stand (pointedly looking away from %woman)
em crosses the room toward ~table in a slightly hurried step
sit table
think Close one there.  Man, this place has really gone downhill... almost get yourself cursed just trying to have a drink nowadays. Why don't those freaks stay in their own quarter?

And often, those freaks DID learn to stay in their own quarter as a result.

[jstorrie]

It's difficult to treat gemmers like crap when the greater majority of them are being put to use by powerful clans. It's difficult to be constantly picking bar-fights over the north/south thing when you are a foreigner living abroad, or when there are foreigners stationed in your city that you run into every single night.

These are consequences of recent political changes in-game, and while I agree that people shouldn't be loving people they saw as mortal foes just last year, many PCs in play right now have IC reasons to be changing their opinions. Give their players the benefit of the doubt.

[Marauder Moe]

There's a difference between shunning a gemmer and insulting them. 

No gemmer is going to complain to his templar or Oash lord because he smiled at a pretty girl and she screamed and ran away (or something milder like a frown and scooting a few stools away).  However, if she spits on him and speculates about his reproductive dimensions then it's possible something bad might happen to her.

You can shun someone without insulting them and without getting in trouble.


There's also a difference between shunning someone and ignoring them.  I remember playing this one gemmer of mine where me and this other character spent like 15 minutes emoting subtle hurt/dirty/scared looks back and forth.  It was fun.


And one final secret... they key to shunning magickers isn't actually in the act of shunning magickers.  It's in the act of shunning/berating those who don't shun them.

[The7DeadlyVenomz]

It's difficult to treat gemmers like crap when the greater majority of them are being put to use by powerful clans. It's difficult to be constantly picking bar-fights over the north/south thing when you are a foreigner living abroad, or when there are foreigners stationed in your city that you run into every single night.

These are consequences of recent political changes in-game, and while I agree that people shouldn't be loving people they saw as mortal foes just last year, many PCs in play right now have IC reasons to be changing their opinions. Give their players the benefit of the doubt.

QFT.

[Rindan]

And one final secret... they key to shunning magickers isn't actually in the act of shunning magickers.  It's in the act of shunning/berating those who don't shun them.

I want to double and triple this sentiment.  My philosophy is to first show distrust of gemmers and pretty much flatly refuse to be civil to them.  That doesn't mean picking a fight, but it does mean responding to a "Hi!  How are you doing today!" with "emote glances at %gemmer dull black gem, grunts, and turns back to his drink with a look of disgust".  You can interact and ignore at the same time.

Perhaps even more importantly, as Marauder Moe points out, feel free to merrily tear into people who cuddle up with gemmers.  You might be too afraid of gemmers to do anything more than ignore and avoid, but you should feel free to be cruel to your fellow mundanes who are too friendly.  The most obvious thing you can do is express your suspicion that they themselves must be a vile deviant freak of nature if they are so friendly with one.  This can lead to all sorts of discussions around their sexual habits, their family, their friends, so and and so forth.

Now, annoyingly enough you will often run into ACLU civil rights lawyer when you are on this tact.  You just need to calmly repeat your claims that they are worthless criminal magiker deviants whose mother must have been a cheap 'rinth whore getting fucked by some Rukkian.  If they try and go off on the "but OMG I need to do business with them" tact, explain that even if they needed to conduct business (certainly no good business you can be sure) that only a magiker freak would think it is a good idea to conduct it in the presence of a few hundred Tek fearing citizens disgusted by such behavior.  If they give the "OMG, but u shuld be nice so they don't eat you" argument, calmly point out that everyone else in the tavern seems manage to get by without shoving licking some magikers boots.  If this fails, just start punching them.

[Salt Merchant]

And one final secret... they key to shunning magickers isn't actually in the act of shunning magickers.  It's in the act of shunning/berating those who don't shun them.

I want to double and triple this sentiment.  My philosophy is to first show distrust of gemmers and pretty much flatly refuse to be civil to them.  That doesn't mean picking a fight, but it does mean responding to a "Hi!  How are you doing today!" with "emote glances at %gemmer dull black gem, grunts, and turns back to his drink with a look of disgust".  You can interact and ignore at the same time.

Perhaps even more importantly, as Marauder Moe points out, feel free to merrily tear into people who cuddle up with gemmers.  You might be too afraid of gemmers to do anything more than ignore and avoid, but you should feel free to be cruel to your fellow mundanes who are too friendly.  The most obvious thing you can do is express your suspicion that they themselves must be a vile deviant freak of nature if they are so friendly with one.  This can lead to all sorts of discussions around their sexual habits, their family, their friends, so and and so forth.

Now, annoyingly enough you will often run into ACLU civil rights lawyer when you are on this tact.  You just need to calmly repeat your claims that they are worthless criminal magiker deviants whose mother must have been a cheap 'rinth whore getting fucked by some Rukkian.  If they try and go off on the "but OMG I need to do business with them" tact, explain that even if they needed to conduct business (certainly no good business you can be sure) that only a magiker freak would think it is a good idea to conduct it in the presence of a few hundred Tek fearing citizens disgusted by such behavior.  If they give the "OMG, but u shuld be nice so they don't eat you" argument, calmly point out that everyone else in the tavern seems manage to get by without shoving licking some magikers boots.  If this fails, just start punching them.

You keep delivering this message that magickers should be hated as rabidly in the south as they are in the north, with only the templarate standing between the two groups and a war of extermination. This just seems like an extension of "everyone hates sorcerers, northerns hate magickers" to "everyone hates magickers".

Show me one place that the documents claim gemmers are universally treated like shit on the bottom of someone's boot in Allanak, rather than just inspiring varying degrees of unease, fear and mistrust. If you can show me that, I'll withdraw my argument.

[Rindan]

Show me one place that the documents claim gemmers are universally treated like shit on the bottom of someone's boot in Allanak, rather than just inspiring varying degrees of unease, fear and mistrust. If you can show me that, I'll withdraw my argument.

The Elementalist Temples in Allanak
The Elementalist Temples in Allanak were built by the city as a way to deal with the elementalist population of Allanak. They were not built by the elementalists, or for the elementalists, or to attract elementalists to the city (although this has been an undesirable side effect).

By building the temples the city has created a place where elementalists can go and cast safely. This is in the belief that they're going to cast no matter what you do, so it might as well be somewhere safe, where you can keep an eye on them -- not to mention removed from the rest of the city into a quarter all their own.

The mentality of living in a city-state is that this is where you were born, this is where you will die, and spending your life anywhere else is almost unthinkable. Doubly so for elementalists, many of whom have probably never been away from the city far enough to lose sight of the gates. Life outside of the city, for them, is an almost unthinkably dangerous and barbaric fate.

The Elementalists of Allanak
Just because an elementalist in Allanak is treated poorly does not mean they have an overwhelming desire to leave the city. Even slaves in a city-state setting will not leave the city-state when given the opportunity, instead fleeing to the slums or possibly trying to pose as an artisan if they have the skills to do so.

One reason for doing this is a lack of knowledge on the conditions of life outside of the city walls. There are gaj, anakore, gith, and worse out in the desert, and what do they know of such things? The land is covered with people that don't even speak a civilized language like sirihish, how would they communicate with them? And what about good wine, music, and comfortable clothing? There are people who will endure the prejudice of a city-state in return for having access to the lifestyle and culture it makes available to them.

Another reason is the exact opposite, knowing exactly what life is like outside of the city walls. Possibly they've traveled, or are from another land, or have gone shadow walking if they're a drovian. They have seen life outside of the city state and don't care for the lawless nature of that life. Within the city-state at least the rules are known, and if observed with a great deal of humility, one can expect to live by them.

There are also undoubtably elementalists who are patriots of the city-state. For whatever reason they hold little or no animosity towards the social structure that brands them as nearly sub-human, and actually use their powers to aid it. These people might be somewhat rare, but they do exist and you will find them in any group of persecuted people.

[Salt Merchant]

There are also undoubtably elementalists who are patriots of the city-state. For whatever reason they hold little or no animosity towards the social structure that brands them as nearly sub-human, and actually use their powers to aid it. These people might be somewhat rare, but they do exist and you will find them in any group of persecuted people.

Alright, the other points were a bit dubious, but I guess this one carries enough weight to confirm your position, along with another document that says magickers are hated without a qualifier. Hated + sub-human sounds like shit on a boot to me.

So get off your butts everyone and shun those magickers!

[jhunter]

You might be too afraid of gemmers to do anything more than ignore and avoid, but you should feel free to be cruel to your fellow mundanes who are too friendly.

I can't stress this more. The point where people's attempts at shunning and hating magickers becomes unbelievable (irritatingly so to me) is when they foolishly direct it openly to the magickers themselves. The only people I can see realistically doing this are templars, (who have the power to crush them under their bootheels and have the might of a sorceror-king behind them) possibly some nobles, and fools with a deathwish.

[Rarsh]

The point where people's attempts at shunning and hating magickers becomes unbelievable (irritatingly so to me) is when they foolishly direct it openly to the magickers themselves.

I'm trying to figure this out for myself, without much luck. So I'm not disagreeing, just looking for clarification, when I say ... why is it foolish for people to openly shun/hate magickers themselves? Given Rindan's v.helpful post, this seems not only acceptable, but the default!

"Just because an elementalist in Allanak is treated poorly ..."
"There are people who will endure the prejudice of a city-state ..."
"Within the city-state at least the rules are known, and if observed with a great deal of humility ..."
"... the social structure that brands them as nearly sub-human ..."

So taken together, you have a social structure that brands them as nearly sub-human. They're treated poorly. They endure prejudice. And need to observe the rules with a great deal of humility.

That seems to say that my PC might direct a great amount of hostility to them personally, and openly. And that certainly that's the social default. Yes, they're super-powerful ... but they're -gemmed-, too. They're under the Highlord's control. So it's like tormenting a lion in a cage, or something.

I've asked the staff about the range of socially-appropriate treatment, but appear to be having trouble wording the question clearly. So any opinions are helpful ...

[The7DeadlyVenomz]

Caged?!?!

They have a collar with a little tag that says Fido. Where do you see a cage?

Maybe you could say they are leashed, like a lion with a length of sewing thread.

Now, of course, after they snap that thread and break your neck and eat your guts, they will be shot down by bullet or tranq dart, but ... yeh, not caged.

[Rarsh]

They have a collar with a little tag that says Fido. Where do you see a cage?

'Like.' This is called a simile. You don't think that the Highlord and templarate functions as a cage? They have a collar, but don't they -also- have an owner who will kill them if they use powers without permission? (And 'owner' is a metaphor; I'm not saying they're actually slaves.)

Why do they need a 'great deal' of humility if nobody but templars are willing to treat them poorly?

This part of the world is baffling me. You have people who the docs rather unambiguously say are treated poorly and branded as nearly sub-human ... but they're also super-powerful and feared. How do you reconcile those two things? If I just observed RP, and didn't read docs, I'd actually think that gemmers were treated more like nobles than commoners, for reasons too IC to mention. (And with the exception of a handful of characters who I'd think had strange personal grudges against gemmers, and were stupid enough to dare annoying them ...)

[Akaramu]

Rarsh... much love for giving this subject so much thought and consideration. 

[Southie]

So taken together, you have a social structure that brands them as nearly sub-human. They're treated poorly. They endure prejudice. And need to observe the rules with a great deal of humility.

That seems to say that my PC might direct a great amount of hostility to them personally, and openly. And that certainly that's the social default. Yes, they're super-powerful ... but they're -gemmed-, too. They're under the Highlord's control. So it's like tormenting a lion in a cage, or something.

The thing that would deter against open/blatant hostility against gemmed is that most people don't really know what gemmed are capable of. They know, yes, that the gem functions as some sort of control device to keep mages in line, and that's why krathi don't go around blowing up buildings like people say they can. But how well does that gem work? Would it stop a mage from cursing you to have rashes for a week? Would it stop the mage from claiming the souls of your unborn children? What if the mage can go home to his temple and make a voodoo doll of you?

Lots and lots and lots of magick is shrouded in mystery from your average common citizen. They really have no idea what gemmed mages are capable of, what the limitations and restrictions actually are. In general, that would make them very wary of being openly aggressive and hostile towards gemmed. Most would fear, many would hate, but few would really want to openly attract the ire of a gemmed mage themselves.

[Marauder Moe]

A cage prevents a lion from doing harm.

You have no assurances that a gem prevents a magicker from doing harm.

A gem simply means a magicker who does harm will almost certainly be reigned in by the templarate... but not necessarily before you are reduced to a pile of smoldering offal.

[Dalmeth]

You have no assurances that a gem prevents a magicker from doing harm.

A gem simply means a magicker who does harm will almost certainly be reigned in by the templarate... but not necessarily before you are reduced to a pile of smoldering offal.

To the contrary, you know that if they cast something on you, they will most likely be executed.  So what if they put a curse on you that makes your heart rot in a week?  The templarate knows everything, and they will know that this vile freak disobeyed the Highlord's laws.

Knowledge that there will be retribution against magickal retaliation is a fairly good motive to be a little brave in making things hostile for magickers.  Especially when you consider how just about  every commoner in the Known World thinks that bad things will happen to them if they even linger in the same area as a vile witch.  Fear of attracting attention can be overwhelmed by the fact that they don't know if things will be just as bad for being near them.

[Marauder Moe]

You have no assurances that a gem prevents a magicker from doing harm.

A gem simply means a magicker who does harm will almost certainly be reigned in by the templarate... but not necessarily before you are reduced to a pile of smoldering offal.

To the contrary, you know that if they cast something on you, they will most likely be executed.  So what if they put a curse on you that makes your heart rot in a week?  The templarate knows everything, and they will know that this vile freak disobeyed the Highlord's laws.

Yeah, but you'd still be dead.  How is that contrary?

[Rarsh]

Rarsh... much love for giving this subject so much thought and consideration. 

Thanks. My first few weeks, I didn't understand how gemmers weren't -worshiped-. You're on a desert planet. Water is life. And some people can create water from their bodies. That's ... big. But then a clan leader stomped on -that- idea (luckily before my poor PC ever expressed any gemmer-admiration!). So I re-read the docs and got -more- confused.

I'm pretty sure that either I'm not asking the question right, or for some reason I'm unable to hear the answer no matter how many times people explain to me, speaking very slowly and using small words ...

The thing that would deter against open/blatant hostility against gemmed is that most people don't really know what gemmed are capable of. ... In general, that would make them very wary of being openly aggressive and hostile towards gemmed. Most would fear, many would hate, but few would really want to openly attract the ire of a gemmed mage themselves.

So they're only treated poorly by the templarate? I'm not sure what the docs really mean, then. Templars treat -anyone- however they choose. Why do gemmers need to observe the rules not just with humility, but with a 'great deal of' humility? Who treats them so poorly that it's noted in the docs? From whom do they endure such widespread prejudice?

And a better analogy than the caged lion would be what? Someone with no social power, despised as almost subhuman in that social milieu. But with deadly force available. Say an armed African-American gangbanger ex-convict at an Aryan Nations party hosted by the town sheriff and his deputies. Yes, he's armed and could kill anyone--if he wants to die, himself. But is that going to keep them from heaping abuse, and worse, on him? No. They'd probably resent him more that he's armed, that they're scared of him, and that'd push them -further-. To prove that they're not scared of this person they despise.

But clearly I don't really understand the in-game reality. I'm gonna try Ask the Staff again!

[Dalmeth]

Yeah, but you'd still be dead.  How is that contrary?

The concept is that they are strongly deterred from using magickal retaliation.

Anybody in our society can murder someone over an insult or perceived hostility, which is the sort of attitude we are promoting against magickers.  The reason why people don't do it very often is likely because law enforcement officials would catch them and put them in jail for a very long time.  In some states, they would even be put to death.  Either way, if they ignore that deterrent, you're still dead.  It doesn't stop people from being assholes.  Get it?

Add in the fact that you don't know if you'll die just by letting them linger around you, and you'll get a good idea of what could embolden a commoner to be hostile to a magicker.

Commoners don't just fear magickers.  They fear magick in general for its awesome power and seeming unpredictability.  I mean, it causes mutants doesn't it?  What would it do to me if I lingered around a magicker for too long?

[Marauder Moe]

Yeah, but you'd still be dead.  How is that contrary?

The concept is that they are strongly deterred from using magickal retaliation.

I'm lost.  Did I say otherwise?

[staggerlee]

Yeah, but you'd still be dead.  How is that contrary?

The concept is that they are strongly deterred from using magickal retaliation.

Anybody in our society can murder someone over an insult or perceived hostility, which is the sort of attitude we are promoting against magickers.  The reason why people don't do it very often is likely because law enforcement officials would catch them and put them in jail for a very long time.  In some states, they would even be put to death.  Either way, if they ignore that deterrent, you're still dead.  It doesn't stop people from being assholes.  Get it?

Add in the fact that you don't know if you'll die just by letting them linger around you, and you'll get a good idea of what could embolden a commoner to be hostile to a magicker.

Commoners don't just fear magickers.  They fear magick in general for its awesome power and seeming unpredictability.  I mean, it causes mutants doesn't it?  What would it do to me if I lingered around a magicker for too long?

So play that ic, it'll sure help bring some mood to the game.  Represent it full tilt.
Just don't oocly judge other people for behaving differently, because they may have their reasons. Not saying you do, but I'm just using you as an example, I know some people do.

Obviously if something isn't being represented in the game our most powerful tool as players is our own rp.  Represent the world the way you feel it needs to be represented, and feel free to use the virtual world to your advantage.   I'd suggest making a personal example, and seeing how many other people catch on.  Argue with your friends, use some charisma and planning.  Make it work.   Submit rp logs of awesome scenes where magickers get shunned.   Work to get them blacklisted from the Gaj. Send Kudos when you see someone else doing a great job at hating. Do something.

Keep in mind though that there's more than one right way to react to magickers, there's an entire human range of emotion available to each and every individual unique character.  Not everyone has to react to them exactly the same way, so don't assume someone is oocly making a mistake based on what their character does ic. This debate's been going on for months, probably years?  Rehashing the same argument on the gdb isn't helping.  I'd say it's time for a new approach.  I'd like to see it move off the gdb and into the game

[Southie]

So they're only treated poorly by the templarate? I'm not sure what the docs really mean, then. Templars treat -anyone- however they choose. Why do gemmers need to observe the rules not just with humility, but with a 'great deal of' humility? Who treats them so poorly that it's noted in the docs? From whom do they endure such widespread prejudice?

They are most certainly not treated poorly only by the templarate. (In fact, sometimes, the templars might treat them better than anybody else does.)

Consider that nearly all the major employers in Allanak refuse to hire gemmed. Of the nine noble houses, only House Oash openly hires gemmed servants. Houses like Borsail and Fale vehemently refuse to be associated with gemmed in any way. In recent memory, Borsail even tried a Senate resolution to have all the gemmed mages expelled from the city. Gemmed mages are typically unwelcome in the nicer, more exclusive locations in the city that nobles frequent.

The merchant houses also do not directly employ gemmed mages for various reasons. They might sometimes contract them out for services, but most merchants would be wise not to do this openly for fear the association would damage their reputation. Even if a gemmed mage might be the best tailor/weaponcrafter/tentmaker in the universe, he almost certainly wouldn't find work with the merchant houses because of what it would do to their image.

To my knowledge, even groups like the Byn don't recruit gemmed mages. They choose to recruit elves and rinthis and even half-breeds, but you don't see gemmers in Byn abas. This is probably because many of the people giving the Byn contracts would be offended to work with a gemmer.

This is all very much out of prejudice and is an example of mages being treated poorly without outright, open hostility. It doesn't end there. A gemmer sitting down at a bar would more often than not find the next two seats to either side of him vacated quickly. Gemmers have to work very, very hard just to be accepted by each individual person they want to interact with. Gaining a commoner's trust would be a battle after that, and even then, the gemmer's friend might not openly acknowledge the relationship because of what the rest of society would think of him.

Defining "being treated poorly" as outright hostility and abuse is probably taking far too narrow a view (but many people seem to do this). Commoners in general do hate the mages, while simultaneously fearing what they can do. There's a sort of mob mentality. You're much more likely to shun, exclude, and be unfair to gemmers when you're part of a group and not singled out. You definitely don't want to give the mage a reason to single you personally out, though. You don't know what they might do to you in response, and is your character REALLY sure there's nothing the gemmed can do to get you back? Does he REALLY trust that the gem keeps the mages from doing anything harmful to him? If there's any uncertainty, is it really worth the risk to him? If he's sure he's safe or willing to take the risk, then go ahead and provoke the mage, but many commoners would probably rather play it safe.

Getting back to the topic at least a bit, I think the staff are being intentionally vague with your questions because there is really no one "right" answer as far as how gemmed should be treated. Some commoners might actually have legitimate IC reasons to associate with, befriend and even love mages. Others will certainly be afraid of they can do and avoid them at all cost. Others still will let that fear lead to anger, and anger to hate, in the immortal words of Master Yoda. But I think only the most brazen of commoners would go around openly confronting and abusing mages in most cases.

I don't think developments in the attitudes toward magick is an issue of staff neglect. I think it's an issue of general evolution based on events some characters have seen. There's one thing I'd like to end with, though, and that is that no matter what your current PC thinks of magick, your next one probably has never seen it at all. I didn't see anyone codedly cast a spell until I had been playing Armageddon for about a year, and it FREAKED MY CHARACTER OUT (and me, too). If we can recreate that awe and fear of magick with every new PC we all play, I think the game would be better off.

[The7DeadlyVenomz]

Magick is such a terribly powerful thing. Even characters who have been about it for some time and perhaps accepted it are still going to be ... concerned with somebody pops a powerful spell off. Shit, mages could be awed and scared of other mages' powers. It is likely that even PCs with a great deal of knowledge about magick have superstitions about it, or believe things about it at times that are ... just not true. And having misconceptions about the unknown is what makes fear so real.

I certianly think that some PCs that should not care about a magicker or want to be around a magicker have IC reasons for doing so, or being so. I do not choose to fault them for that. I am fairly certian that most players still manage to maintain the balance required, however, between utility and fear. Unless I just happened to play with the fifty most badass roleplayers in the game.

[Marauder Moe]

I've had mages that were afraid of their own power.  They do something and think "Holy shit, did I really just do that?" and then the cold realization of what horrors could happen if they really cut loose and unleashed their full power on, say, a large population.

[Rarsh]

Getting back to the topic at least a bit, I think the staff are being intentionally vague with your questions because there is really no one "right" answer as far as how gemmed should be treated. Some commoners might actually have legitimate IC reasons to associate with, befriend and even love mages. Others will certainly be afraid of they can do and avoid them at all cost. Others still will let that fear lead to anger, and anger to hate, in the immortal words of Master Yoda. But I think only the most brazen of commoners would go around openly confronting and abusing mages in most cases.

As you say, seems from Ask the Staff that there's no 'one right answer.' Seems that terrified silence, the cold shoulder, and openly abusing gemmers are all completely unexceptional IC reactions. (And that, of course, if a PC has reason to befriend or love a gemmers ... that's fine, too.)

I was confusing things by appearing to ask for the -one- attitude toward gemmers (like anything else was wrong and you'd have to be a bad RPer to even -think- of such a thing!), instead of making clear that I was trying to figure the range of unremarkable possibilities, which seems like a pretty broad spectrum from indifference to overt discrimination and abuse.

[Southie]

Just keep in mind the gemmers are free to respond with their own range of reactions as well. A PC can be overtly abusive or hostile at his own risk - the docs certainly don't say mages have to take it lying down.

And that's what fuels the fear. And if it doesn't scare a player, or at least a PC... heh. I think sooner or later they'll end up finding some "correction".

[Rindan]

I think when considering the range of responses to gemmed, you need to keep a few things in mind.

1)  Most commoners are probably absurdly paranoid about magikers and have developed countless superstitious about them.  Think of the silly superstitions that there used to be about Jews, now imagine Jews that can throw fire balls and summon demons and ponder what people might come up with.  For this reason, I think flat out avoidance would be an utterly common approach to a gemmer.  Gemmer coming your way?  Step around it.  It sits down next to you?  Get up and move a few stools down.  One puts down a half empty mug, whatever you do don't drink what is left.   Hell, don't even TOUCH that mug.  You might tear your own beating heart out before letting a magiker perform some evil so called "healing" ritual.  Fear and avoidance are totally reasonable.

2)  There is a very strong social drive to dislike magikers.  This drive comes not only from your fellow commoners, but from the nobility.  While the nobility has been a little distant of late, keep in mind that it would be no hidden secret that nearly all of the noble houses despise gemmed.  Nobility are who the commoners look up to.  Nobility are the embodiment of perfection and set the fashion and social trends for the rest of society.  Where Templars might terrify you with their awesome power, nobles awe you with their perfection (and also terrify you, but not as bad as Templars).  If the highest of Allanak's citizens despise the gemmed, it should be no surprise that the rest of the population follows as they do in all things.

3)  Fear is also balanced in very large part by the awe and the overwhelming belief in the divine powers of the Highlord and the Templars that do his will.  Magikers, while scary, are pocket change to the sort of terror that a pissed Templar should bring out in you.  A magiker is a deviant and a freak, but a Templar is the manifestation of the all powerful Highlord's will, and who could possibly doubt the power of the Highlord?  Just spend a moment gazing upon the largest and most powerful city in all of Zalanthas surrounded by wasteland that are all but certain death on all sides and rest assure that the Highlord is all powerful and that gemmers hardly rate as the smallest of little insects to His power.  In this regard, some commoners fear might be pushed down to allow hatred and prejudice to take over if they feel confidence enough in the Highlords protection to piss on of those collard wretches.  Think of it like the KKK.  You would never see a KKK member preaching his filth in the south side of Chicago for fear of being torn to shreds.  On the other hand, you will find a KKK member preaching in the middle of a liberal bastion if he is surrounded by police and feels confidence that the crowds can't harm him without being taken down by the police.  Sure, some hippie could pull out an AK-47 and blow him away, but he is confident that no one will.  A commoner might feel the same with a magiker.  You might not piss off one in the wastes, but in the Gaj with Templars and solders aplenty near by, you might feel a braver.  Also, don't forget that there are rewards for beating on a magiker.  Snuggling with a magiker is likely to get you spit on.  Bravely kicking the shit out of one is likely to get you a free drink.

So, in large part I think that there is a large range of "normal" reactions towards a gemmed that range from fear, avoidance, and hostility with people easily falling on and in-between this categories.

Finally, as much as I shit on gemmed and people being friendly with them, I don't want people to give the impression that all interaction with them is evil.  There is absolutely nothing wrong with a character who is filled with burning hatred for an enemy getting the guts to seek out a Drovian to place an evil curse on them.  I am just saying that such action would likely cause a terrible internal struggle for the character in question, there would probably be a large element of fear in the meeting, and you sure as shit would do everything possible to NOT be associated with the gemmer in public.  You are basically meeting with satanist to ask for favors during the Inquisition.  It can happen, but it should give you long pause.