Support

[Raesanos]

A pattern I've noticed is that staff who spend a lot of time managing request tool requests or account mail a lot of the time end up getting burnt out and take time away from those kinds of duties or even away from the game in general.  We really like providing a lot of individual support and deal with things a lot of MUDs don't do.  We've amassed a pretty large staff to do this: looking at some data we often will have a 5:1 player/staff ratio logged into the game.

I have done a lot of work improving processes by making them more automated or more streamlined.  I appreciate it when people are good sports about meeting us half way: I know the request tool is more of a pain than writing an email but it really helps us out.  There are other things I'd like to do too: allowing players to store their own characters is something I've been thinking about lately.

I'd like to involve you guys in the process more though, since it obviously effects everybody.  Here are some questions I'd like to open up a discussion on to see how you all feel.

What are things we don't do that we should do?
Is there anything we do that you feel is unnecessary?
What things do you need a staff member to help you with that think you should be able to do yourself?
How do you think staff support will change in the new structures (such as clans, cities) in Arm2?  How should they?  Shouldn't they?  Is this a good thing?
Super general question: What do you think is the ultimate goal of staff support in a MUD?  Are we achieving it? :)

Most important, with any suggested change, suggestions on how to do it are great, since thats what could really end up resulting in changes.

[Mood]

Since the keyboard I'm on sucks pretty badly, I'll just answer...

What things do you need a staff member to help you with that think you should be able to do yourself?

The one thing I'd really like to see (in Arm1, as well as Arm2, if it's at all possible), is, as you said in your post, the ability to store a character by yourself, without having to go through the process of filing a request.

I'll edit the post to answer more questions when I'm on a better keyboard.

[Cutthroat]

What are things we don't do that we should do?

Please, please, please keep the playerbase informed on the Armageddon blog. Your last entry (Gluing maps together) was a good read because you showed the RMBT is getting faster. Small and large steps alike should be noted in the blog, and seeing new updates daily or every other day would be optimal. A quick few sentences is all that's needed, really - the rest could be discussed on the GDB.

Is there anything we do that you feel is unnecessary?

Hmm, can't think of anything here.

What things do you need a staff member to help you with that think you should be able to do yourself?

Ideally, players should be able to shape the world themselves without a lot of staff help. Granted, the process players would have to take would be hard ICly, but if all the IC work can be done (or is already done) getting staff to coordinate with you should be a cinch. An important thing to remember is that the staff should work with the player, but not necessarily work with the -character-. The amount of challenge a staff member can create for a player that wants to change the world is great.

Also, as Mood said, please favorably consider allowing us to store our own characters. That being said, staff should ask questions if a player stores a leader or plot-specific character. But storing immediately is a lot better than taking a swim in the Silt Sea, and requesting storage from staff is a strain on players (we need to wait until the storage is complete before jumping into another role) and probably the staff (another request to handle).

How do you think staff support will change in the new structures (such as clans, cities) in Arm2? How should they? Shouldn't they? Is this a good thing?

I think a lot of the staff should start PCs in Arm2 as leaders of groups that would have already been established, so as to get plots rolling along. As players start to take the staff's places, the staff should begin to step back and largely let the playerbase control things, doing things the staff normally does now.

Super general question: What do you think is the ultimate goal of staff support in a MUD? Are we achieving it?

The ultimate goal of staff support in any MUD is to essentially support the playerbase. Right now it's done with wishing and the request tool. This can even be fun for the staff if they use their own PCs to move plots along, support new players, etc. That being said, yes, the staff does achieve it, but I think in Arm2 it can be achieved with different methods.

[Lizzie]

Only one thing I would love to see that comes to mind immediately. It has to do with all the cloned NPCs that show up after a game reset. The first time I wished up about that in the past few months, someone 'sent' me a message telling me that NPCs don't dupe during game resets. Perhaps they don't. But they do dupe.  Some, often. Some of them seem to clump together too instead of walking around like I think they are meant to do. Like, they'll be walking, then walk to the same room as a couple others, and they all just end up sitting there indefinitely, the whole bunch of them, never moving again.

So you end up with 4 "green-eyed hag elves loitering on the side of the road" and two of them are standing together, next to the exact identical twin of the "blue-haired little boy playing ball" as the blue haired little boy playing ball 6 blocks away, who looks suspiciously like a blue haired little boy playing ball 4 blocks in the other direction. Of course between all those hags and ball-playing boys, are 8 Soldiers of Tektolnes, standing in the middle of the road, doing absolutely nothing, in the same spot that two RL days ago there were only two. And yesterday there were only four. It's like they duplicated themselves by groups. 2, 4, 8...if you wait long enough you wonder if you'll see 16 tomorrow.

I'd love the code to prevent that. Or, for whatever IMMs are around, to take turns checking areas that are known problems for duped NPCs, just to break up the groups or delete the dupes. There aren't that many areas like that, that I've seen. Maybe a dozen between the two major cities combined. I bug them, but even if someone breaks them up/deletes the dupes, they're back usually a day or two later.

[The7DeadlyVenomz]

That's actually just  an error with resets, or, the game not understanding that the other NPC is there. Technically, the game won't dupe NPCs, but right now, we're seeing a bit of a bug, I think.

[Lizzie]

It isn't a recent thing though. It's just that IC circumstances have placed more NPCs into the public view so there are more to dupe now than before. This dates back to 2006 when Vanth did something that caused dupes, posted an announcement about it, and asked people to typo them when it happened. It never -stopped- happening after that, and no one ever said to stop typoing them, so I've just been typoing them. I just find myself doing that more often. But it definitely isn't something new.

[Southie]

I would love an automated tool that could let players submit objects/NPCs/tattooes/etc online instead of by email. This way you could go ahead and write things up as you got inspiration and have them stored there in some nice easy format for staff to look over.

I would love a way to be able to look at our account notes more easily. I understand that editing notes is a time-consuming process for staff, since some notes aren't meant to be seen by players; maybe starting with the new game, notes could be separated into "visible" and "invisible" categories, and players could request and recieve an automatically generated list of their "visible" notes on demand?

Overall, I think staff support is great. The goal should be that player requests are documented and responded to in a reasonable time period (like within 24 hours for apps, within 48 or 72 hours for urgent things, a week for most other issues and longer for nonessential things like special apps.) For the most part I think the staff does this. What I think would be really great is if every email going in to the staff could get a reply, even if it's just a "Got this, thanks for sending" for stuff like clan reports. Responsiveness, timeliness and communcation should be the focus, and again, you guys do a good job at that already.

[Malken]

I also agree that keeping the Arm 2.0 blog updated as much as possible is very important to keep the "buzz" going, to keep us interested in it all. Even if you might think it's not worth a blog, we're all REALLY starving for any infos on the new game

I would also suggest adding the many clans that are not available in the Request tool, I can think of many northern clans that are not available to choose from in the Add Forum list, and that is why I had to send an email requesting to be added to the clan. Then I was told to use the Request tool but the clan I wanted to join wasn't available. (Most newish noble clans aren't there I believe).

Automatic storing is also fine, SoI does it and if you abuse it, they don't think twice about removing your option to store your characters. Easily done and undone for those who abuses of it.

[Gimfalisette]

When I look at the things that I have requested from the staff, I see:

-- Kudos. These probably can't be automated. But maybe they could be more automated than they are now, by adding fields with for "Character Name" and "sdesc" and etc.; whatever would help the staff field these more quickly.

-- Reimbursements.  If the game never crashed, or if there was an automated way to get things reimbursed, then these could be wiped out totally. (Automated as in: What if the game -knew- what items I should have in my possession, and if there wasn't a current item of that type in the game that was tagged for me, then the game would allow me to spawn one? I dunno.)

-- Questions. These are always things that need a staff answer.

-- Interaction from staff on story points. This stuff can't be automated, but I suspect it's also the kind of stuff that staff would love to be spending their time on, for the most part.

-- Interaction from my clan imms on OOC minutia like adding storage space for me, or making sure someone's job for the clan is set correctly, etc. With player-run clans and the right tools in game, a lot of this work for staff could be eliminated.

Overall I think you guys do an awesome job. I just wish there was more automation to provide players control over many of the little niggly things, so y'all had more time for really being storytellers.

[The7DeadlyVenomz]

I certainly would say that the answering of my emails would be at the top of my list. When I'm in a clan, I'm always tryna get things going right. When I'm leading the clan, it's even more important.

[RogueGunslinger]

I think it's funny that I -know- it can take up to three weeks for someone to check on my special app and send me a reply email. But I still check it every few hours.

I can't help it. I'm so interested in getting reply back from you guys. Also an email I sent out for information on something has me eagerly waiting, checking my inbox. So I have to agree with T7DV here.

I also just want to thank all the immense amount of effort the IMM's put into this game, and also how much they seem to want to know how we feel about things.

[Mood]

I think it's funny that I -know- it can take up to three weeks for someone to check on my special app and send me a reply email. But I still check it every few hours.

I can't help it. I'm so interested in getting reply back from you guys. Also an email I sent out for information on something has me eagerly waiting, checking my inbox. So I have to agree with T7DV here.

I also just want to thank all the immense amount of effort the IMM's put into this game, and also how much they seem to want to know how we feel about things.

Same here... I often excitedly jump to Gmail when Gmail Notifier pops up, hoping it's from the imms about a pending request... I'm usually disappointed by spam.

[manonfire]

As far as PC leaders of merchant-type organizations go, I'd love to able to access the master list of loadable inventory available to that organization, and be able to actually load it. I'm sure loading items is a massive chore for you guys.

I'm sleepy and stuffed with turkey, pie, and beer. That's all I got.

[Only He Stands There]

As far as PC leaders of merchant-type organizations go, I'd love to able to access the master list of loadable inventory available to that organization, and be able to actually load it. I'm sure loading items is a massive chore for you guys.

I'm sleepy and stuffed with turkey, pie, and beer. That's all I got.

This is something I thought on, too. Loading objects is a pain for GMH and similar clan leader immortals that they really don't need to have to go through. If there was a way to access a list of objects and load them onto the stockpile NPCs, where they could then be purchased for their base cost -- even if this took a 48 hour timer, or whatever -- we could take loads off our clan immortals' backs.

[brytta.leofa]

This is more work, not less...but it would be nice to get some feedback for every email / request, just so I know someone's alive up there. ;-)

Code Select Expand

All right, got it.

Code Select Expand

The code doesn't support players taming halflings as pets...sorry.

Code Select Expand

You have been issued trouble ticket #9232. We'll look into it.
The staff/player ratio makes it a necessity, I suppose, but it's disappointing when things seem to just disappear into the black hole of the mud account.

I know you guys already put a tremendous amount of your time into the game...thank you.

[Agent_137]

i've always thought that staff shouldn't be focused on running their own plots for us but instead on making the world real for players trying to do their own plots.

Or for characters just walking along in the desert.

The staff plots I've seen have scented of being forced.

I'm not complaining, i'm just proposing a shift in focus.

i don't have a lot of inside information, so maybe they're aready there.

[staggerlee]

This may be a bit off topic, but I absolutely love the request tool, particularly the player/staff kudos bit.  It's brilliant.

I don't know if it's feasible code wise, but automating the kudos system system is the best idea I have to take some burden off of the staff.

I've had great experiences since I started, and I like being able to interact with the staff, but I also realize that every email/request is one more on top of an enormous pile.  So rather than suggest things the staff could be doing I think it's in our interest to take work away, so that you have more time to do other things.

There's obviously something to be said for giving players more control of clans and related things in the next incarnation of the game, since that should take some burden away.  Hopefully once the world flows a bit more organically the staff can tweak it and give stimulus, instead of trying to micromanage.

I realize that wasn't particularly insightful or new, I just dumped my brain out onto the forum in a big gooey mess.  But I've been impressed.

[Barzalene]

I'd like the ability to change your own mdesc. Maybe this should be reserved for those with a certain amount of player play time, or karma, to reduce the possibility of abuse, but  don't want to have to write in and bother someone because I typoed or what have you.

[X-D]

Something I dislike in the current incarnation of the game is when staff steps in, for any reason on PC VS. PC action...UNLESS it is a situation where NPC/VNPC SHOULD step in. Too often I see the (as Mansa says) Uber powerful NPC with abilities NO PC could ever get step in and save some PC. Sure, that PC may be important to a plot line. BUT, the PCs attempting to kill said PC may be trying to advance their own plotline by ending the other. And for a staffer to step in, most likley protecting their own plotline SUCKS.

Next, Sadly there is no way to say for sure if it is abuse or just being absent minded, but when a staffer uses staff gained knowledge in a plot when they shouldn't. I do not know how this can be stopped or proven from a player side. Sadly it has ruined many plots for me and others...FAR more I think then the use of OOC comunications has from player side. Again, this I think is part of the "npc/vnpc with powers no PC could have deal" I as a player cannot call a staffer on such cheating (IMO it is cheating) Because they can just turn around and argue that some unheard of superubermindbendersorcdragonundeadvampireof DOOM overheard this carefully planned plot where EVERY step was taken to make sure it was NOT overheard and often by players and PCs that KNOW every single way that a PC could overhear such a plot.

So...in Arm2 I would love to see a Highlord whos only real job is to, without the calling of the players, make sure that all staff keeps everything IC and on the up and up. To prevent like has happened with the Muark/kurac favoritism in the past from happening again
To stop staff from protecting plots with unrealistic means when the players basicly have that plot beat. Meh...sorry if it seems like a rant...and happily most the staff who I would have accused of such deeds have long since been fired or retired...but still...it happens too much IMO.

So...I am hoping more is put in to stop such things from ever starting.

/rant

[Shara]

Super general question: What do you think is the ultimate goal of staff support in a MUD? Are we achieving it?

To create an original game, with endless amounts of playability and on going plots in a way that is comprehensive and enjoyable.  I think the staff pulled it off on Armageddon's current version.  I think what Tlaloc and I'm assuming Vanth at the time did for Tuluk was an incredibly positive jump.

What are things we don't do that we should do?

Right now I do not feel like the GDB is taken seriously.  There was a period staff did not answer ask the staff questions that I noticed, or some are answered some are just completely ignored.  There is really not much of a moderation system in progress.  And as mansa mentioned, just asking the players to moderate themselves does not seem feasable.

The website, I think it needs some flash, I think it needs some flare.  As well I think it would be neat if people on the GDB could have avatars and some other little whistles and bells.

I think that characters in leadership positions should be obliged a response weekly if they are required to send an update weekly.  It's only fair and it will keep leaders with proper guidance.  But not only for the leaders but for all of the players to allow them to help keep plotlines going.  Sometimes I can't tell what is more important coding etc or keeping plotlines going.  I don't really know why this isn't done, the only thing I've been able to think of suggesting is more IMMs.

Is there anything we do that you feel is unnecessary?

Require IMM approval to store your character.

Require IMMs to load items for merchants in merchant Houses.

I think that several NPCs classified into various types:  shoes, tops, bottoms, hair, handware, furniture, accessories (bags, incense, perfume, books, pens) A seperate NPC to redeem tickets (see above)

That would be Kadius for example and the inventory would be available for the Kadian.  It would be the equivilent of the merchant going to the warehouse or the crafter and requesting they make something.  For rarer or larger items the crafter would give you a ticket (like the tailor) which you could reimburse once the item was complete.  It could take a day to a week to a month for the rarest, largest items.  Gone are the days a merchant is e-mailing constantly HOPING an IMM will upload the correct thing in a timely manner and gone are the days the IMMs are constantly going back and searching the inventory etc.  No more two year waits for say a pair of shoes.

What things do you need a staff member to help you with that think you should be able to do yourself?

See above.

How do you think staff support will change in the new structures (such as clans, cities) in Arm2? How should they? Shouldn't they? Is this a good thing?

I really do not know what the current problem is when I do not receive but a one sentance response after a month of updates is.  And I'm not trying to point fingers, I have had more than one character in a leadership position and it seems sometimes an IMM will forget about you all together for weeks on end at times.  I think the request tool has really assisted non-clanned or non-leader characters.  But I am not the only one that I know of that as a leader has wondered why they are not receive responses and then PCs in the game are left hanging for various reasons.  I think my suggestion above would REALLY help out with the merchants.

[Mood]

Something I dislike in the current incarnation of the game is when staff steps in, for any reason on PC VS. PC action...UNLESS it is a situation where NPC/VNPC SHOULD step in. Too often I see the (as Mansa says) Uber powerful NPC with abilities NO PC could ever get step in and save some PC. Sure, that PC may be important to a plot line. BUT, the PCs attempting to kill said PC may be trying to advance their own plotline by ending the other. And for a staffer to step in, most likley protecting their own plotline SUCKS.

Next, Sadly there is no way to say for sure if it is abuse or just being absent minded, but when a staffer uses staff gained knowledge in a plot when they shouldn't. I do not know how this can be stopped or proven from a player side. Sadly it has ruined many plots for me and others...FAR more I think then the use of OOC comunications has from player side. Again, this I think is part of the "npc/vnpc with powers no PC could have deal" I as a player cannot call a staffer on such cheating (IMO it is cheating) Because they can just turn around and argue that some unheard of superubermindbendersorcdragonundeadvampireof DOOM overheard this carefully planned plot where EVERY step was taken to make sure it was NOT overheard and often by players and PCs that KNOW every single way that a PC could overhear such a plot.

So...in Arm2 I would love to see a Highlord whos only real job is to, without the calling of the players, make sure that all staff keeps everything IC and on the up and up. To prevent like has happened with the Muark/kurac favoritism in the past from happening again
To stop staff from protecting plots with unrealistic means when the players basicly have that plot beat. Meh...sorry if it seems like a rant...and happily most the staff who I would have accused of such deeds have long since been fired or retired...but still...it happens too much IMO.

So...I am hoping more is put in to stop such things from ever starting.

/rant

Agree with pretty much everything here.

[mansa]

I believe the there is a boundary, and a US vs Them mentality that exists between Players and Staff that harms the game.

I believe the focus of the game should be reassessed from an Macro Level.  What is the game about?  What is trying to be produced?   I think the game focus has lost itself.



As I've grown up in the game, I've shifted the reasons why I play the game.  You could call it maturity, or you could call it something else.  This is what I think needs to change:

#1
A focus towards storytelling of characters within a game world.

What does this mean?
-It means that the players and staff of the game should compile their stories and publish them on the website when they are complete.
-It means these stories should be able to be sold to the general public.
-It means that characters who die because of silly typos or "forget to log out and die of starvation within their own barracks" should be able to get a 'rez' because the point of the game is to tell the stories of the characters lives, and not to type everything correctly.
-It means that characters should be able to change their backgrounds and bio entries while external to the game.
-It means that the characters themselves are more important than what they accomplish within the game world.
-It means that the NPCs should remember old characters, and react accordingly.
-It means that NPCs should grow old and die, and new NPCs should exist.
-It means that NPCs should keep a record of all their interactions with the players, if they ever get inhabited by an Immortal.

#2
A focus towards "hands off" clan creation / maintenance.

What does this mean?
-It means that the staff don't control the clans themselves, or have a say with how their politics deal.
-It means that players will have to amass everything and pay for NPCs and vNPCs.
-It means that players should be able to promote and become a 'leader' of a clan without having to wish up.
-It means that there should be clan options to change external to the game.
-It means that clans will have more flux than anything else within the game, and will live and die based on the characters lives.


#3
Magick should be mysterious and dangerous, and NPCs should react to every type of magick effect violently.
-It means that if you're invisible in a bar, and you say something, all the NPCs should clear out.
-It means that if you walk into a bar with a ball of life floating, either the NPCs will clear out or attack you.


#4
Players should have easy access to create new content, and be able to have it 'submitted for approval'.
-This includes NPCs, Rooms, and Items.


#5
Staff Interactions should be focused solely on keeping the world live and fresh and new and interactive, while strictly keeping the role-play quality up high.


#6
Bi-Annual Player-Staff meetings to discuss whatever the playerbase thinks needs a change.


#7
There should be Players who are Moderators on the GDB.  Moderator Moe, you got my vote.
Why?
-This creates a new level into the politics of Armageddon, and the gap between Immortal and Player smaller.


#8
More promoting player input and creativity - with More Artwork, Songs, Poetry, and other aspects that the community enjoys.



Sorry for just spewing out information.

[Jherlen]

I am in complete agreement with mansa.

[staggerlee]

This post is pretty pointless... but yeah Mansa strikes some very good points there.

Basically what you'd be doing is shifting the staff off of administrative details and getting them back to helping the world and the players in it tell stories.

I like it.

[Raesanos]

I like a lot of these ideas.  I'm definitely going to work on some of these things, and I'd like to hear more!

Some of the ideas I've seen (while very good) are kind of ways to improve the game overall, and are not focused on support.  But I realized I didn't really define support very clearly so here is a shot at it.

By support I mean this: Armageddon is the result of what we do, we code, we build, you play PCs, we animate NPCs, we run plots, etc.  Sometimes, as a player of Armageddon, you end up with a problem that can't be solved in the Armageddon "system."  You need a human being to help you solve this problem outside of the typical Armageddon goings-on.  Thats what I mean by support.  Generally, this involves a wish, an email, or a request, explaining your problem, and a staff member to provide the support you need.

There are two goals.  First, we don't want you guys to have problems! We know you don't like having problems.  Second, we want to spend our time building, coding, etc. rather than fixing problems.

So basically, ways to reach those 2 goals are what I want to focus on.

[Dalmeth]

i've always thought that staff shouldn't be focused on running their own plots for us but instead on making the world real for players trying to do their own plots.

Or for characters just walking along in the desert.

The staff plots I've seen have scented of being forced.

To be honest, I've had several instances over various characters where staff have done just that.  Sometimes, it was forced, but I still enjoyed it.  The forced feeling won't go away just because the staff is serving your wants instead of theirs.  It's a game with limited code, and I can live with that.  So long as the staff is providing good fun, I don't mind where exactly they decide to spend the bulk of their efforts.

[glasswright]

As far as PC leaders of merchant-type organizations go, I'd love to able to access the master list of loadable inventory available to that organization, and be able to actually load it. I'm sure loading items is a massive chore for you guys.

Yes, please.

[Bebop]

I am in complete agreement with mansa.

Especially about the clans.  I want to see clans live and die by what the PCS do.

[mansa]

I really like the 'Request Tool'.  It's probably one of the best additions to the game.

I really like the bio command.



I wish when I use the 'wish' command, it saves whatever I said in a log file so that Immortals can check up on it later.  Much like a 'request'.  In fact, if you could incorporate the two into one, that would be awesome.


I wish that there was an OOC bio entry for each character, where we can enter information about what we want to accomplish, and problems that we are currently having.
i.e. Expand the 'objective' to be a bigger file.  And multiple entries.
Wishing up would automatically make a new entry about this in our 'ooc file' as well.  We could edit it and make it more than just 255 characters in length, to help immortals realize what our problems are.



Personally, I'll use the OOC Bio Entry to send in my weekly reports, since I hate email.
If I could add to the OOC Bio Entry from the website, you'll be able to send the weekly reports in there, for people like Gimf who doesn't like/no time to do 'accounting' things inside the game.

This removes more email from your immortal inboxes.

Mansa is so smart this idea rocks!

[Reiloth]

1. I think the ultimate goal of staff support in a MUD, in general, is to make sure all the cogs are greased. That code wise, not so much 'game world' wise, everything is moving smoothly IE: fixing bugs, adding new code, removing old code, making sure code for new characters is functioning, etc. Secondly, I think it is the staff's goal to make sure there is a progressive storyline, over a massive amount of time. This is to say, that characters SHOULD be moving this storyline forward, over many generations, but in the short term, should be in control of ALL plots. I do not believe there should be any short-term IMM run plots, ever, or if there are, they are started and encouraged by PCs.

2. Things you don't do and shouldn't do: X-D's post, as I have seen this many times. To be specific yet vague, almost every assassination attempt I have made, or seen other PC's make, is instantly found out by NPC's around the area, and assumed that my character or another PC's character are responsible, even after clothes are changed, blood is not on the character, and weapons are ditched. As X-D said, I understand that a person might be important to THEIR(Immortals) plots, but that character dying might be important to OUR(Players) plots. It is discouraging enough that I have not decided to make an assassin until recently, and with the advent of the game closing, do not really care if NPC-Uber-Sorceror-of-Doom / Templar-of-omnipresence finds me and kills me because I killed some pet project of <insert fanatical IMM name here>. I believe that if someone is Assassinated, skillfully at least, it should fly RIGHT under the radar. Who cares if your Clan's NPC mindbender saw it? Does it really itch you that much to kill this Assassin PC who might -further- game conflict, as opposed to keeping it simple and smooth?

3. Things that are unnecessary: Making the game more player friendly. Through IMM run plots, (Although also PC plots, admittantly), I have seen this MUD through the last year turn from a harsh, desert planet to a friendly, air-conditioned, hand-holding love fest. It is not so much that people are holding hands; it is that they are AFRAID to cause conflict between Noble Houses and merchant Houses, because an IMM might step in and squash them, and their entire house, for screwing with them. I -won't- go further into that, as I will divulge IC information, but several players that I know are privy to knowledge that SHOULD get at least two IMMs off staff, PURELY because of this.

Also unneccesary: manifesting powers in PC's just because they are in your clan, and it'd be cool if they got <insert cool power here>. If they didn't do anything to recieve that power, or put in over a RL year's worth of time into discovering it and training it, I think you are twinking.

Ignoring the checks and balances between Houses, and Templars. When I see a Noble House / Merchant House go "Oh, yeah, we found out you're a <crazy class you shouldn't be>, but we're just going to let you go and live a happy life.", when the docs say if anyone ANYONe anyone finds out you are this <crazy class you shouldn't be>, they would fucking rip you apart, and a mob would pee on you. I mean, either change the docs, or expect players to become irritated when this kind of situation happens.

4. Things a staff member do that I think I should be able to do myself:

Start a clan, codedly, without any IMM support. If I make a gang in the 'rinth, I want to be able to create it, invite people into it, stake out a territory that is my 'gangs', and start a bank account with Nenyuk for a fee.

Blow up a building.

Rob a bank.

Rob a store.

5. How staff should support clans: Let Player do whatever they want. Sure, have some NPC's around to animate, maybe even ones that are above PC's. But ENCOURAGE PC's PROJECTS. If some Sallari wants to make a gladiator pit to test new weapons and armor in, that people can get paid like 20 coins to wear certain armor and weapons to test durability and effectiveness, LET THEM. IF there is the money to do it, and they have it in hand, LET THEM DO IT! The only thing staff can do that players cannot is CREATE in Arm 1.0. We cannot build a building, we cannot tear it down, we cannot do anything that the hard-code does not let us do. So I ask that the staff is hands-on in making PC's projects become a reality, and not nix them because it isn't in THEIR vision of the clan.

Encourage Player to PLayer conflict. Let Kadius assassinate that Kuraci Agent. Let that guy from the Shallows of Basal blow up the water-trade building. LET US STIR SHIT UP! It makes the world go round. Thank you.

I'd also prefer players do not respond to this thread, as it is aimed at Staff, though that probably won't stop any of you. Flame on.

[Gimfalisette]

If I could add to the OOC Bio Entry from the website, you'll be able to send the weekly reports in there, for people like Gimf who doesn't like/no time to do 'accounting' things inside the game.

This removes more email from your immortal inboxes.

Mansa is so smart this idea rocks!

I really want that. I think my characters deserve bios, but I just loathe taking the time to properly enter and format bio entries in game. I still think it would be necessary to send reports by email, though; email serves as a reminder that there's something to pay attention to. Well, also, email is an out-of-game tool that I can be working in while still playing the game. (Yeah, I multi-task when all y'all players are being slow to respond!)

[Rindan]

1)  I think the request tool could use an 'other' option.  I try and stuff my requests into some category, but sometimes there is none.  To make it a little easier to sift through the "other" option you could perhaps put a "high", "low", and "normal" urgencies on the "other" category.  Some times a request is a low urgency request or FYI, other times it is an "OMFG I n33d a r3z!11!!!".

2)  An in game "alert" tool might be nice to have to alert staff of events happening now or about to happen.  Let the alert tool be used liberally.  Two Byners getting ready to fist fight in the street would be worthy of an alert.  A gemmer threatening to toast a mundane fellow in the Gaj would be worthy of an alert.  Any event that might be quasi-important at that moment, especially a public event, could be alerted.  This way, people can let you know about things that are happening without touching the ever so intimidating wish line, and staff members can filter out alerts if they don't want to hear them.  Have the alert tell the staff who and where the alert was sent from in case they don't provide enough information.  I imagine the command to work something like this.

>alert OMG, these two Bynners are totally about to start throwing fists in the Gaj.
>alert I am about to make an assassination attempt on the Amos for stiffing me a few 'sid the other week.
>alert I am being raided by Blackmoon raiders.
>alert Fred the gemmer keeps saying loudly declaring he is going to burn down the bar.
>alert Me and Malik are about to have a secret meeting to set a price for Lord Inbreed's head.

3)  I really think the world could use more atmosphere reinforcement.  There are times when people do things that I personally think should come close to starting a riot.  Now, I can emote VNPCs, but I think it is generally bad form to emote VNPCs reacting in a negative way against other PCs, no matter how strongly I think that they should.  I would mind seeing a little more gentle enforcement of cultural values through imm controlled NPCs and VNPCs.  You don't have to beat someone with a stick of d00m.  An NPC jeering and laughing at the human merchant Amos for professing his love to a 'rinth elf would be enough.

4)  I wouldn't mind seeing staffers throw in a slightly more active hand in helping n00bs and bored players.  I don't think that the staff even needs to take all that active of a hand, they just need to give vets an excuse to help n00bs.  Something as simple as a Templar storming into the Gaj, pointing to a vet and a n00b (at random of course), telling them that they are hereby recruited into the Templars service, and that the two of them will travel to Red Storm to get Lady Crosseyed a cask of spiced ale on the double or be summarily executed, would work fine.  It is a good excuse to get a vet to show a n00b the ropes, and a good excuse for Lady Crosseyed to approach and recruit a dumb n00b to fulfill her n00b training quota (if she is willing).  You could even let players flag themselves as willing to do such work and even provide a context with an objective like command for how their character could be made to do it.

>change n00bhelper My character has made it known to the Templerate that he will rehabilitate criminals (n00bs caught trying to get exp off gate guards) by recruiting them for mining work.
>change n00bhelper If my character overheard that a n00b criminal was snagged by the militia, he would probably approach the n00b to see about terming up.
>change n00bhelper I am a Byn sergeant, I eat n00bs.  Give them tah meh!!!!
>change n00bhelper I would be willing to help a n00b if it made sense for my character.

5)  In 2.Arm, I would like to see a good pondering over staff responsibility.  Even if all the clans are "player run", they will still need some support.  Regional support staff is a start, but if a clan gets particularly large and stable, dedicated staff support isn't a bad idea either.  It would be nice if as a clan leader in 2.Arm there was always one or two staff members you report to.  Regional staff members could serve to facilitate communication between other staff working in their area, deal with small clans/independents in their region, and act as the overseer to keep clan favoritism from cropping up.  This way, even if a staff member gets too caught up in the clan he is supporting, there is still a regional staff member to apply the breaks.

[flurry]

One area that comes to mind is around being recruited or promoted in clans.  Right now it feels like it involves support from the staff more than maybe it should. Here are a couple particular examples.

Scenario 1:  Amos gets hired by House Malik.  Player of Amos wants to create a new handle for House Malik's clan forum.  PoA emails staff (or uses request tool) to get new handle approved.  PoA uses request tool to get new handle added to House Malik's clan forum.  PoA uses request tool to request access to House Malik's documentation.

Possible Solution: Better integration between game accounts and gdb accounts.  Maybe newly clanned characters could automatically get the option to add themselves (possibly using an alias) to the appropriate clan forum.

Scenario 2: Amos gets promoted to Assistant Stablehand in House Malik.  But player promoting Amos forgets to give Amos the appropriate coded 'jobs'.  Amos's player rarely sees PC boss and eventually wishes up to get jobs added.

Possible Solution: Coded jobs are packaged with certain positions, so it doesn't require further coded action (or possible staff support) beyond the initial promotion.

A couple other areas come to mind.

GDB Moderation:  Some minimal moderation is probably a necessary evil.  If there were some kind of alert flag on posts that players could use for egregious ic-info posts, for instance, it might help with this.

Account Notes:  What if account notes were organized in a way so that it were divided into a part for player eyes and a part for staff eyes?  That would prevent staff from the need to go through and clean up the file before sending it to the player.

[Adiadochokinesis]

1)  I think the request tool could use an 'other' option.  I try and stuff my requests into some category, but sometimes there is none.  To make it a little easier to sift through the "other" option you could perhaps put a "high", "low", and "normal" urgencies on the "other" category.  Some times a request is a low urgency request or FYI, other times it is an "OMFG I n33d a r3z!11!!!".

2)  An in game "alert" tool might be nice to have to alert staff of events happening now or about to happen.  Let the alert tool be used liberally.  Two Byners getting ready to fist fight in the street would be worthy of an alert.  A gemmer threatening to toast a mundane fellow in the Gaj would be worthy of an alert.  Any event that might be quasi-important at that moment, especially a public event, could be alerted.  This way, people can let you know about things that are happening without touching the ever so intimidating wish line, and staff members can filter out alerts if they don't want to hear them.  Have the alert tell the staff who and where the alert was sent from in case they don't provide enough information.  I imagine the command to work something like this.

>alert OMG, these two Bynners are totally about to start throwing fists in the Gaj.
>alert I am about to make an assassination attempt on the Amos for stiffing me a few 'sid the other week.
>alert I am being raided by Blackmoon raiders.
>alert Fred the gemmer keeps saying loudly declaring he is going to burn down the bar.
>alert Me and Malik are about to have a secret meeting to set a price for Lord Inbreed's head.

Best. Idea. Ever.

[brytta.leofa]

>alert OMG, these two Bynners are totally about to start throwing fists in the Gaj.
>alert I am about to make an assassination attempt on the Amos for stiffing me a few 'sid the other week.
>alert I am being raided by Blackmoon raiders.
>alert Fred the gemmer keeps saying loudly declaring he is going to burn down the bar.
>alert Me and Malik are about to have a secret meeting to set a price for Lord Inbreed's head.

Good things, but isn't this the same as "wish all"?

[Agent_137]

the idea is in the differentiation between the two, brytta.

[mansa]

Agent_137 wrote:
the idea is in the differentiation between the two, brytta.


Why have two commands that do the same thing?

-- I guess if you were an immortal, you wouldn't want to have alerts every moment. So some immortals would 'ignore alerts'. You would need to have two commands for that aspect.


However, The idea behind the command is that - the players are telling the immortals what is up, rather than the players asking the immortals what is up.

It's a fundamental shift of the whole command and aspect of how players interact with the Armageddon staff.

Personally, I'd rather go with my idea as to how to keep the immortals informed at what we, the players, are doing. My idea is here:
http://www.zalanthas.org/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?p=306785#306785

[Raesanos]

I actually really like the OOC biography idea.  There is a lot that could be done with that.  People put so much thought into their characters and a lot of that information is ultimately lost.  Not only would this record it, but we could on the staff side have better dissemination of that information with things like a clan OOC bio page where all staff can see all recent updates for a clan on one page, rather than it being limited to the inboxes of the staff who received the updates.

[staggerlee]

I think that idea is absolutely brilliant.

I feel bad about how far behind I am on my bios, but once I'm in game I usually get caught up in playing.  I'd love to be able to work on them and read them from work instead of posting on the gdb all day.

[Gimfalisette]

I actually really like the OOC biography idea.  There is a lot that could be done with that.  People put so much thought into their characters and a lot of that information is ultimately lost.  Not only would this record it, but we could on the staff side have better dissemination of that information with things like a clan OOC bio page where all staff can see all recent updates for a clan on one page, rather than it being limited to the inboxes of the staff who received the updates.

I would swoon with joy if there was a way to input biography entries via the website rather than having to do it in game. My character deserves biography entries, and I haven't done a single one because of two issues:

-- I absolutely cannot afford to use up my in-game time, idling, in the text editor, while I struggle with it.
-- I hate, hate, hate, hate the text editor with a burning passion.

[brytta.leofa]

I actually really like the OOC biography idea.  There is a lot that could be done with that.  People put so much thought into their characters and a lot of that information is ultimately lost.

I...put OOC stuff in my bio entries, anyway. 

And I, too, would love a way to enter these from the web.  Though I'd settle for vi-embedded-in-Arm.

[Southie]

I add OOC snippets to my bio now and then, but it'd be nice to be able to organise better.

The ".x" commands in the text editor let me sort of keep on roleplaying while I'm editing stuff. The one huge problem I have with the text editor is that it blocks incoming psi messages. For some reason, if you're in the editor, the code acts like you're barriered and no one can psi you, but they can still contact you. Several times I've had people think my characters were unconcious or something and get really worried, when all I was doing was writing a bio entry.

[Gimfalisette]

For some reason, if you're in the editor, the code acts like you're barriered and no one can psi you, but they can still contact you. Several times I've had people think my characters were unconcious or something and get really worried, when all I was doing was writing a bio entry.

Exactly. This drives me insane, because I am not able to just get in / get out with the text editor due to my very complicated hate-hate relationship with it, and I just don't see being able to take half an hour of peak time play to wrestle a bio entry to the ground, while people are freaking out over the possible unconsciousness issue. This is probably largely my own mental challenge here. But this is how it works for me.

[staggerlee]

The ones I've done I wrote ahead of time in wordpad, and formated so that I could cut and paste it line by line into the editor.  I then do it in the first five minutes of logging in, and if it's all prepared it doesn't take long.  That's the best I've got for a work around.

I agree though, it'd be great to have it added to the request tool or something.

[Fathi]

I want the rules to apply to everybody.

[spawnloser]

Please, don't use your biography as a notepad with OOC notes to yourself.  Sanvean said it wasn't supposed to be used for this.

[Southie]

I don't think it's being used for OOC notes to ourselves, but instead for OOC notes about the character to the staff.

Also, spawnloser, you aren't the bio police. I'm sure if the staff had a problem with somebody's biography practices, they'd tell them so.

[spawnloser]

I know I'm not.  I'm just saying that the staff said not to use bio as an in game notepad.

However, that aside, there are other reasons that you should not put OOC notes in your bio entries even if they are simply to staff.  It is NOT an OOC tool.  The request tool and email are sufficient ways to reach the staff.  Your bio should be things that your character knows/experienced/etc.  It is your character's biography, and in that way only a way to communicate to staff.  It is not an in game way to write notes to the staff.

[spawnloser]

I could have sworn that I replied to that... so I'll make it short and sweet...

I never said I was the bio police and couldn't care less.  No more are you the 'how people treat/think of gemmers' police, but look at the post you made.

There are reasons both OOC and IC for not using the bio in this way, and if you don't know them, I'll not tell you, as some of it is IC sensitive.  Ask the staff if you should use the bio as a way to send them notes instead of use it for its intended purpose, for keeping track of your character's past so that those that can read it know how your character has grown from the initial background.

[Shalooonsh]

Staff Stance:

^quoteI don't think it's being used for OOC notes to ourselves, but instead for OOC notes about the character to the staff.

Also, spawnloser, you aren't the bio police. I'm sure if the staff had a problem with somebody's biography practices, they'd tell them so._{end quote}

Please do not use the bio command for OOC comments to yourself.  Use notepad on your computer.

Please try to refrain from using the bio command for OOC comments to staff, from yourself, or at least be careful about what you say.  We would greatly prefer you use email to cover this sort of thing, but there are certain instances in which an OOC notation is absolutely necessary.

Oh, hey, there's the quote icon:

I like you.

Be nice, or I'll start letting fly with my views on you.  Southie's response was completely appropriate, and useful.  Yours was a jab.

[manonfire]

Feel free to PM me with a complete breakdown of your views on me.

I promise, Shal, you won't hurt my feelings.

[Southie]

I could have sworn that I replied to that... so I'll make it short and sweet...

I never said I was the bio police and couldn't care less.  No more are you the 'how people treat/think of gemmers' police, but look at the post you made.

There are reasons both OOC and IC for not using the bio in this way, and if you don't know them, I'll not tell you, as some of it is IC sensitive.  Ask the staff if you should use the bio as a way to send them notes instead of use it for its intended purpose, for keeping track of your character's past so that those that can read it know how your character has grown from the initial background.

Shalooonsh addressed the topic (thanks), and now we all know. If I came off as suggesting bio could be a substitute for emails, or the request tool or something, I was just being unclear. Bio should be used to record things about the character's personality and story; and my point was there are some things that from an OOC perspective that might be valid for that purpose. Sometimes something can't really be expressed in IC terms, but still gives an helpful insight on a character to the eyes of somebody reading the bio. I figure that's fine to include, and if something was out of line, staff would flag you over it.

With that said, the post I made in the other forum about gemmers was intended to open up discussion about an IC topic that I felt could use discussing. It was never about policing anyone as much as having people consider a different viewpoint about the world. I think, in the World Discussion forum, that's a perfectly valid thing to do. In contrast, your post derailed a thread (which I am now fueling and am sorry), and was about a topic that really doesn't have any basis in player-to-player discussion. Using biography incorrectly is something staff should address, because they're the ones in position to do so. It's not for a player to tell another player how to write their biographies any more than it is to tell them how to write a background, or an mdesc, or an email, or a request.

It isn't very classy, in my opinion, when players start assuming the role of telling other players what to do as if they were staff.

[spawnloser]

Yes, Shalooonsh did weigh in on it, and no I wasn't trying to act as if staff.  I was simply reminding people what staff had said about something... just like I've already said... in the first post I made... and every one since.  Don't shoot the messenger.

[Shalooonsh]

O hai, made dis 4 u.

Back.

On.

Topic.

[mansa]

I want an OOC tool in the game so that I can write things that all immortals can read and understand at their own leisure.

I want an OOC tool in the game where I can add things I want to do, the people I know, the personal quests I am on with my character.

Please?  Please?

Even more, I want it synced up with the Wish Command.  So that all my Wishes get automatically entered into my OOC tool inside the game.  I want to have the record of Player and Staff interaction to be recorded into this OOC tool.  I want a setting to make certain OOC tool inputs more 'important' or 'emergency issues' than just a blank state.

I want to know which immortal is interacting with me.

[Troicha]

Loonsh, love your ava. Please don't take this as sucking up or a derail, which is why I made it so small.

Back on Topic.

What's the staff's position on the proper sort of OOC stuff to go into bios? A few examples follow, pick among them if it helps.

Code Select Expand


Amosina is becoming increasingly suspicious of Malik, because he spends so much time locked up in his apartment with Barani, that girl he met in the Grey a few weeks ago.

What Amosina doesn't know yet is that Malik is a rogue Elkrosi, and he's really using Barani to fuel an arcane ritual to summon his Ultimate Electric Guitar. I know this from stumbling over Malik two characters ago. Amosina may develop in the direction of finding out.

Code Select Expand

Zho hates Amos with a passion, and will probably be attempting to kill him soon, all because of that incident where Amos left Zho stranded with three horny kanks. (I don't really want to PK Amos, so I'll see if I can steer away from that.)

Code Select Expand


Fayden reported to his superiors about losing the mul slave to a rutting mekillot on their recent trip to the Salt Flats, and is really, really relieved that they aren't going to kill him or throw him out of House Voryek. (He was lying; what really happened was he pushed the mul into the Silt Sea because he hated being treated equal to it.)

Did you have something else in mind that I missed?

[flurry]

spawnloser,

When you say that there's some IC info that pertains to the topic, but you can't talk about it, it can be a lot more revealing than if you just didn't talk about it at all.  This seems to come up often.

Very annoyedly yours.

flurry

[mansa]

What's the staff's position on the proper sort of OOC stuff to go into bios?


Did you have something else in mind that I missed?

None.  The Bio command is specifically an IC tool to tell the story of your character - which is why I want an additional OOC bio command.

[Lizzie]

Yeah agreed with Flurry on that. I learned quite a few things because Spawnloser said it was IC info that he couldn't talk about, and I had just assumed certain things were code issues.

Basically - if you can't say anything, then please don't.

[spawnloser]

Troicha, did you get staff officially saying that these were appropriate?

Amosina is becoming increasingly suspicious of Malik, because he spends so much time locked up in his apartment with Barani, that girl he met in the Grey a few weeks ago.

What Amosina doesn't know yet is that Malik is a rogue Elkrosi, and he's really using Barani to fuel an arcane ritual to summon his Ultimate Electric Guitar. I know this from stumbling over Malik two characters ago. Amosina may develop in the direction of finding out.

Including that you found something out two characters ago and that you're planning on having this character figure it out?  I find this inappropriate, actually.

Zho hates Amos with a passion, and will probably be attempting to kill him soon, all because of that incident where Amos left Zho stranded with three horny kanks. (I don't really want to PK Amos, so I'll see if I can steer away from that.)

Your, the player that is, motives and desires are not part of your character's background.

Fayden reported to his superiors about losing the mul slave to a rutting mekillot on their recent trip to the Salt Flats, and is really, really relieved that they aren't going to kill him or throw him out of House Voryek. (He was lying; what really happened was he pushed the mul into the Silt Sea because he hated being treated equal to it.)

This one, I have no problem with.  These are things that happened in character.  "Amos said he did this, but he was lying and actually did this."  These are things that could have been observed by someone in game.

The rule that I follow is simply that.  If a mindbender/whiran/nilazi/templar could have observed it all happening, including my character's thoughts and motivations, it can go into the background.  Otherwise it is YOU the player and not the character's history/background/motivations.

What mansa has suggested, though, an OOC bio command so that you can comment on your character for the staff and the staff alone to see?  That would be a wonderful thing and a way to keep this inclusion of OOC in something that should remain IC, your character and your character's background.

My response to flurry will be sent via PM as her response to me should have been.  Oh, and Lizzie, you learned nothing.  You guessed.

[Malken]

I only use the Bio command to keep track of my daily IRL grocery list.

[Jherlen]

What about simple OOC things in a bio, like saying, "I imagine my character talks like Antonio Banderas", or "This character's personality was based on Jabba the Hutt", or "If Armageddon used alignments, this character would be Chaotic Evil". I think that's what people were getting at. Also,

When you say that there's some IC info that pertains to the topic, but you can't talk about it, it can be a lot more revealing than if you just didn't talk about it at all.  This seems to come up often.

QFT. And,

I was simply reminding people what staff had said about something... just like I've already said... in the first post I made... and every one since.  Don't shoot the messenger.

I think you were doing more than "simply reminding", you were indeed policing. I think Southie's point was that you should not BE the messenger.

[flurry]

If the staff say the bio command should only be used a certain way, that should be enough explanation.  There's really no reason for non-staff to say anything more about the reasons for that policy, since it's a staff policy.

[Troicha]

To mansa and spawnloser:

form of a question.

[mansa]

What about simple OOC things in a bio, like saying, "I imagine my character talks like Antonio Banderas", or "This character's personality was based on Jabba the Hutt", or "If Armageddon used alignments, this character would be Chaotic Evil". I think that's what people were getting at.

Until there's a seperate command for IC and OOC stuff - I imagine things like that are perfectly fine, Jherlen.  I'd do it.  You got the mansa support.

[Adhira]

Unfortunately mansa support doesn't count for anything.

The bio command, as it stands right now, is for IC information. It is not an OOC tool, a suggestion has been made that having one in the future would be nice so we'll add that to the suggestions, thanks.

For now. Use bio for IC info. Don't use it to comment on OOC things, even if it's regarding character information etc. Imagine that bio is like the movie of your characters life. If you want staff to know about motivations, why your character talks in a certain way, something you observed with a past pc - all that kind of thing, email it in.

[Ghost]

Uhmm.. I think this is the best thread to post suggest or ideas on web?

I would like to have "Monotype Corsiva" (or anything that will look like an elegant handwriting) font added to the submission page.

[Goldberry]

One thing I would like staff to do is this...after I wish up, if an Imm has heard my request and intends to respond to it at any point in the near future, I would like for someone to say, "I heard you, I'll get back to you on that."  Usually, I re-wish every 30 minutes or so.   I don't want to be a pest, but I don't know if anyone is aware until someone responds somehow.

[Lizzie]

One thing I would like staff to do is this...after I wish up, if an Imm has heard my request and intends to respond to it at any point in the near future, I would like for someone to say, "I heard you, I'll get back to you on that."  Usually, I re-wish every 30 minutes or so.   I don't want to be a pest, but I don't know if anyone is aware until someone responds somehow.

Seconded and thirded, and I'll add something constructive, a suggestion for a "wish answering system"

We all know sometimes there just isn't an IMM available to handle a specific issue. There could be 10 imms around and listening, but none of them are in your clan and you need a clan NPC animated for something. But -we- won't know that there isn't one available. All we know is no one is answering. Maybe they're ignoring us. Maybe we -are- that pest that they just avoid. Maybe there aren't -any- IMMS logged in at all that moment. Maybe there's a clan imm, but he's just too busy to help right now. We have no way of knowing what the silence means.

So how about this.
The wish gets sent up to IMMland. The "appropriate" IMM has 60 seconds to send -something- to the player, whether it's "send amos not now" or "pkill amos" or whatever the response is.

If the game doesn't ackonwledge some sort of response within 60 seconds, it beeps whatever active overlord or highlord is logged in, just in case it's an emergency (help my character is subdued by an NPC who won't let go and won't kill her and now she's getting thirsty and I can't log out and can't use the way to get rescued and this is a remote location where no one passes by). 60 seconds later, if there's no acknolwedged response by the game of a highlord or overlord responding to the wish, the player gets an AUTOSEND:

"We're sorry, there is no one available to help you right now. We might be logged in, we just can't answer your request at the moment. Please try back no sooner than 20 minutes. Thanks."

[RogueGunslinger]

I honestly don't care if I get a response. Because if i didn't get a response, i didn't get it. Why should I care -why- I didn't get one? I have no problem re-wishing a question or re-wishing that someone need logged out Either an IMM sees it and helps me, they don't see it, or they see it and cant help me. I understand it can be frustrating not to get an answer, but I just go and play my PC and stay IC, and if the problem still persists after a while I re-wish.

[mansa]

I honestly don't care if I get a response. Because if i didn't get a response, i didn't get it. Why should I care -why- I didn't get one? I have no problem re-wishing a question or re-wishing that someone need logged out Either an IMM sees it and helps me, they don't see it, or they see it and cant help me. I understand it can be frustrating not to get an answer, but I just go and play my PC and stay IC, and if the problem still persists after a while I re-wish.

I believe that every wish should create a support ticket that the immortals should go through and answer.

I believe that every input the player has into the game should be answered in some form - whether it be Yes, No, We'll be with you in a Bit.

I believe that ignoring a playerbase from the administrator staff is a terrible thing

[Dusky]

I believe that every wish should create a support ticket that the immortals should go through and answer.

What might be interesting (and a problem with wishing as I understand it - which may well be incorrect) is that wishes are dynamic - like says and tells.  You wish it - it floats up to heaven and if an immortal is busy, not logged in or whatever, s/he'll miss it.

Now imagine wishes that did just that AND also autoposted to an Immortal "wish board" that could be checked now and again.  And imagine immortals could (as necessary) set themselves a flag that would let them know how many open wishes were on the board or when wishes reached a critical threshold.

That would be cool from a staff perspective (if your goal was to better handle wishes).

[My 2 sids]

I think it'd be nice if there was a "character creation" request tool.   A player could send a message saying what type of character they'd like to play "Military, high-ranking clan leader, shady type, etc" and then staff could respond with something like "I'm creating a plot that needs... a poision making-rinith-bard" or even "city X is in need of a good tailor".  I guess what I'm saying is, IMMs get to see the big picture and I'd like to see them using that info to help dirrect players who are looking for roles.

One fear I have about Arm.2 is that all us players are going to be plopped down, brand-spankin-new, into situations and that we're all going to have to look to IMMs to provide everything: plots, information, employment, training, etc.  ....>  thus, creating what we have in Arm.1 (an IMM driven game).   I'd like the IMMs to consider (if they haven't already) choosing some players who will have boosted stats and a bit of OOC knowedge  so that we will have muilti-level PC leaders in the city.

A second fear of mine is, like others have stated, there will still be this "us vs them" maintality.  There will be no way to sustain a PC-driven game if the players still feel IMMs don't take player's requests and observations seriously.  That includes PC interactions suddenly messed up by random NPC encounters.  If there isn't a problem, if there isn't a request for interaction... than stay out of the situation.

[mansa]

I believe that every wish should create a support ticket that the immortals should go through and answer.

What might be interesting (and a problem with wishing as I understand it - which may well be incorrect) is that wishes are dynamic - like says and tells.  You wish it - it floats up to heaven and if an immortal is busy, not logged in or whatever, s/he'll miss it.

Now imagine wishes that did just that AND also autoposted to an Immortal "wish board" that could be checked now and again.  And imagine immortals could (as necessary) set themselves a flag that would let them know how many open wishes were on the board or when wishes reached a critical threshold.

That would be cool from a staff perspective (if your goal was to better handle wishes).

Wishes are definitely Dynamic.  But, why do people wish up?

Because they have a question about something, and aren't sure of the answer.

When an Immortal answers a wish, they should also try and make the answer to the question freely available to everybody else in the future - thus trying to eliminate another wish up of the same question.

What would be great would be a knowledge base, perhaps.

However, the other thing to know is that the whole game is Dynamic itself - that what might be true for the rules in '05 might be totally wrong in '08.

And we can't have immortals -only- working on a knowledge base of the game and the structures within the game, because that does take a lot of energy and time.

What if everybody with 4 karma or more could have access to write entries into a knowledge base, based upon approval of the article?

What if everybody with 8 karma or more could "approve" or "edit" the entries that the people with 4 karma or more have written?


That way, if someone wishes up, you can first request them to check out the knowledge base, and see if the answer is in there, and if it isn't to write it themselves, or request an article written about it - and then get an answer from an Immortal.

If only you could check the knowledge base within the game itself...

[The7DeadlyVenomz]

I believe that there will be players chosen from among the base with a good history of being useful, who will end up being the first leaders of the world. It's logical, and it only falls in line with the rest of what's been going on. They are obviously aware that some players will be needed to get a PC run game off the ground.

Furthermore, I don't think anyone should be terrified of the Imms giving us a foot up at the start. I'm confident that they have the ability to step in and step right back out.

[RogueGunslinger]

I honestly don't care if I get a response. Because if i didn't get a response, i didn't get it. Why should I care -why- I didn't get one? I have no problem re-wishing a question or re-wishing that someone need logged out Either an IMM sees it and helps me, they don't see it, or they see it and cant help me. I understand it can be frustrating not to get an answer, but I just go and play my PC and stay IC, and if the problem still persists after a while I re-wish.

I believe that every wish should create a support ticket that the immortals should go through and answer.

I believe that every input the player has into the game should be answered in some form - whether it be Yes, No, We'll be with you in a Bit.

I believe that ignoring a playerbase from the administrator staff is a terrible thing

And I agree with you 100%. I don't want the staff to ignore us, but that doesn't mean I have to have an answer to believe that they aren't.

[Goldberry]

Such blind faith is admirable. 

[RogueGunslinger]

Such blind faith is admirable. 

I'm a glass half-full kind of guy.

[My 2 sids]

Half-full or not, I think we should look at patterns.  Specifically, if there tends to be high-karma, long-term players who continue to question the leadership ability of the staff, question if their being heard, and create indep. characters outside the IMM-ran clans...  I think that suggests an over all "bad taste" left in the mouths of players who have had decent interaction with Staff.

Further, nothing... nothing is more frustrating than for a seasoned player to get a responce from staff which A) doesn't fully address the comment/question and B) would be a canned responce staff would send to some newbie player.   

[a strange shadow]

Improvements can always be made, but ArmageddonMUD's volunteer staff does a far better job than most other games, even pay-for-play. If you want real examples of backbiting and favoritism, I could point you toward other MUDS to try. Here, I've had a couple bad experiences and I've had many good ones, and I'm one of said "high-karma, long-term" players. I expect your experience with the staff also depends on how you as a player approach things just as much as it depends on how they deal with it. Politeness, directness, and honesty go a long way, and passive-aggressive bitching generally gets a negative response.

[My 2 sids]

Improvements can always be made, but ArmageddonMUD's volunteer staff does a far better job than most other games, even pay-for-play. If you want real examples of backbiting and favoritism, I could point you toward other MUDS to try. Here, I've had a couple bad experiences and I've had many good ones, and I'm one of said "high-karma, long-term" players. I expect your experience with the staff also depends on how you as a player approach things just as much as it depends on how they deal with it. Politeness, directness, and honesty go a long way, and passive-aggressive bitching generally gets a negative response.

No one's saying they are doing a poor job.  However, there are always areas in need of improvement (which I was under the impression this thread was about).

Secondly, the fact this is volunteer and not other games has little relivence.  The IMMs are good on their own account, not simply because they are volunteers or in comparason to other sub-standard games.

[Dusky]

Eh.  In the old days the staff was bad.
Today's staff is far more professional.
It helps when we remove our expectations - you expect them to meet your standards, but really they need to meet their own.  Our own internal standards are not something that the staff (or anyone else) should concern themselves with - and why should they? What are our expectations but something we've made up in our heads.

The staff does a good job for a bunch of underpaid mud-addicts at running the game and answering questions.  Are they perfect. Then again, I bet they are better staffers than most players are players.

I say this having been (in the old days) the one benefiting from favoritism (no clue how - guess I knew someone who knew someone) and having it do nothing but piss me off.  When I outted the folks doing it, my character was deleted.

Things are far better now and the game, as a system in all its complexity, deserves every bit of praise that it gets.

Before we level complaints that sound like sour grapes (and no offense, this is what I hear in Mansa's posts) we need to take a hard look at ourselves and ask ourselves why we expect others to do as we prefer them to.  I, for one, would not hold myself to your standards.  I hold myself to my own.

[My 2 sids]

Eh.  In the old days the staff was bad.
Today's staff is far more professional.

And maybe that's just it.  It could be some who have been around for a long time don't know the new staff and are simply going by what they knew.   Reguardless, I'm thinking Arm.2 could bring back a few old players... if that's the case then they need resurance that anything which may have driven them off before is being addressed now.

[X-D]

You know what I want to see in Arm2.

Stricter rules to account notes.
Like a rule of "Please refrain from adding personal opinion unless you know the FULL context of the situation."

Noting an account with "So and so appears to be ignoring  "something game world" and is doing this"
Or, even worse, and something seen just as often, "So and so is ignoring  "something game world" and is doing this"
Sets a bias that may well be uncalled for. This thing being done may very well be long planned, or whatever.
But even with thinks, feels, BIO etc,  there is little chance that the PC has been watched enough for things to be in context.
Going along with that, I think Arm2 needs a freeze/suspend/pause command that works on EVERYTHING in a given area and defined from a single PC, to room, to span of rooms, to zone to world. So a staffer could type say "freeze room 10555" and EVERYTHING cept for wishes and OOC stops in that room, nothing can enter it but staff, not even an arrow or kankfly. And staff should be allowed to question actions or get clarifications at that time instead of simply reacting or forming an opinion after the fact.
Or even to be able to go "OOC Hold on a moment, I need time to make the world in the area react in a realistic manner to your actions."
And for the player to help staff on questions as well. "OOC Sure, also you might want to check my PCs bio entries #3,6,21,22 and 30."


Also, Would it be possible to give NPCs a memory buffer, or at least some of them?
Currently if a staffer wants to see what happened someplace they have to check the room logs, which I've heard is a major pain in the ass.
Reason I think that would help is WAY TOO often when I've played leaders, on asking an NPC whos JOB is to watch an area, I get some answer like "What, you think I have time to pay attention?" When the NPCs job is to do exactly that..
Its a Door guards JOB to know EXACTLY who goes through that door, Maybe not what people are talking about around him, so, give him a memery flag that only remembers  sdesc of people coming through the door. The guard in the store room on the other hand might not remember who came and went, but would maybe know who got what from what containers. The barracks guard should remember who went to sleep, who woke up (quit/entered game)  and any fights  and such. The serving wench might have listen, and not remember who came and went, but remember things heard and emotes.  It would take a few memory flags of course to do it, and each entry would need a time stamp in RL minutes so a staffer could more easily query the memory.  So typing query npc 120-10 would get 120 minutes ago to 10 minutes ago. Then a staffer would be able to more easily and realisticly get the npc to react. Even if they only entered the game 5 minutes ago. Hell, some NPCs would have longer memories then others as well.  So being able to set it from say 100 entries to say 5000 entries.

And, its something that could also be automated for PC use as well. No reason why somebody playing a templar should not be able to  query his soldiers. Or some NPCs might make a living  from information. Like the traders Inn begger and have set bribery fees, Say 100 coins per RL minute  for 1000 coins he might tell you who came and went for the last hour,.

Such ideas should not only reduce the number of requests on staff somewhat, but make it much easier and faster to respond if needed.

[Dusky]

X-D, that's some great ideas - new thread worthy I think.

I like the idea of "Time Stop" (used in MUSHES for other reasons, right) for staff clarification. 

But then - using it to control flow of combat would be great as well - it would make combat far more realistic but far less adrenaline pumping, I think.  It would give us more time to emote, to describe what our characters are doing - to write the story.

[Fnord]

You know what I want to see in Arm2.

Stricter rules to account notes.
Like a rule of "Please refrain from adding personal opinion unless you know the FULL context of the situation."

[rishenko]

I think Arm2 needs a freeze/suspend/pause command that works on EVERYTHING in a given area and defined from a single PC, to room, to span of rooms, to zone to world. So a staffer could type say "freeze room 10555" and EVERYTHING cept for wishes and OOC stops in that room, nothing can enter it but staff, not even an arrow or kankfly. And staff should be allowed to question actions or get clarifications at that time instead of simply reacting or forming an opinion after the fact.
Or even to be able to go "OOC Hold on a moment, I need time to make the world in the area react in a realistic manner to your actions."
And for the player to help staff on questions as well. "OOC Sure, also you might want to check my PCs bio entries #3,6,21,22 and 30."

Yes, please.  I know imms try to understand, but sometimes I know that they wonder what the fuck a char is up to.  This could help in rather sticky situations.

[The7DeadlyVenomz]

Going along with that, I think Arm2 needs a freeze/suspend/pause command that works on EVERYTHING in a given area and defined from a single PC, to room, to span of rooms, to zone to world. So a staffer could type say "freeze room 10555" and EVERYTHING cept for wishes and OOC stops in that room, nothing can enter it but staff, not even an arrow or kankfly. And staff should be allowed to question actions or get clarifications at that time instead of simply reacting or forming an opinion after the fact.
Or even to be able to go "OOC Hold on a moment, I need time to make the world in the area react in a realistic manner to your actions."
And for the player to help staff on questions as well. "OOC Sure, also you might want to check my PCs bio entries #3,6,21,22 and 30."

This is an excellent idea.

Also, Would it be possible to give NPCs a memory buffer, or at least some of them?
Currently if a staffer wants to see what happened someplace they have to check the room logs, which I've heard is a major pain in the ass.
Reason I think that would help is WAY TOO often when I've played leaders, on asking an NPC whos JOB is to watch an area, I get some answer like "What, you think I have time to pay attention?" When the NPCs job is to do exactly that..
Its a Door guards JOB to know EXACTLY who goes through that door, Maybe not what people are talking about around him, so, give him a memery flag that only remembers  sdesc of people coming through the door. The guard in the store room on the other hand might not remember who came and went, but would maybe know who got what from what containers. The barracks guard should remember who went to sleep, who woke up (quit/entered game)  and any fights  and such. The serving wench might have listen, and not remember who came and went, but remember things heard and emotes.  It would take a few memory flags of course to do it, and each entry would need a time stamp in RL minutes so a staffer could more easily query the memory.  So typing query npc 120-10 would get 120 minutes ago to 10 minutes ago. Then a staffer would be able to more easily and realisticly get the npc to react. Even if they only entered the game 5 minutes ago. Hell, some NPCs would have longer memories then others as well.  So being able to set it from say 100 entries to say 5000 entries.

And, its something that could also be automated for PC use as well. No reason why somebody playing a templar should not be able to  query his soldiers. Or some NPCs might make a living  from information. Like the traders Inn begger and have set bribery fees, Say 100 coins per RL minute  for 1000 coins he might tell you who came and went for the last hour,.

Such ideas should not only reduce the number of requests on staff somewhat, but make it much easier and faster to respond if needed.

I love this idea too.

[Only He Stands There]

Also, Would it be possible to give NPCs a memory buffer, or at least some of them?
Currently if a staffer wants to see what happened someplace they have to check the room logs, which I've heard is a major pain in the ass.
Reason I think that would help is WAY TOO often when I've played leaders, on asking an NPC whos JOB is to watch an area, I get some answer like "What, you think I have time to pay attention?" When the NPCs job is to do exactly that..
Its a Door guards JOB to know EXACTLY who goes through that door, Maybe not what people are talking about around him, so, give him a memery flag that only remembers  sdesc of people coming through the door. The guard in the store room on the other hand might not remember who came and went, but would maybe know who got what from what containers. The barracks guard should remember who went to sleep, who woke up (quit/entered game)  and any fights  and such. The serving wench might have listen, and not remember who came and went, but remember things heard and emotes.  It would take a few memory flags of course to do it, and each entry would need a time stamp in RL minutes so a staffer could more easily query the memory.  So typing query npc 120-10 would get 120 minutes ago to 10 minutes ago. Then a staffer would be able to more easily and realisticly get the npc to react. Even if they only entered the game 5 minutes ago. Hell, some NPCs would have longer memories then others as well.  So being able to set it from say 100 entries to say 5000 entries.

Going along with that, I'd love to be able to check your OWN scrollback, as well. Nothing's worse than losing link and logging back in 5 minutes later in a crowded tavern with everyone looking to you to react to something... if you could "query 10" and show the last five minutes of scrollback echoed to your PC, that'd be awesome.

[Dalmeth]

Also, Would it be possible to give NPCs a memory buffer, or at least some of them?

A better idea would be to make the room log easier to sort according to specific criteria.  For instance, the ability to sort out what movement commands were made within a room could help narrow down a specific time frame to examine.  Also the ability to sort out actions made by PCs of certain clans, races, or whatever denomination you choose could also be of help.

The most simplistic way of doing this would be adding tags to whatever is put in the log.  Also a good idea might be to view these logs without certain tags or tags at all for the sake of easy reading.

So, it would all come together something like this :

Code Select Expand


What your average PC in the room would see:

The blood red cendi walks north.

What is input into the log :

(18:01:23.034 :: 2301, 146, 2)The blood red cendi (cendi) (Clan:23) (PC : 1002) walks north (walk :: 2301, 147, 2)


That way you can narrow down what you're looking for by the time it occurred, where, who did it, the clan they were in, and any particular action that occurred.

[X-D]

Though that would be nice for some things Dalmeth. It gives too much information and still makes it so the staffer has to decide what the npc actually might have noticed.

Thats not the point to the idea. The point to it is to give the staff an easy to use tool with no guesswork involved. AND to possibly give PCs tools later as well so that they need bother the staff less. They are still human, the staff that is, and it is not uncommon now for information to slip that the npc should NOT have.

I'm not saying that room logs should not be easier, they should. But for a tool to be put in place so that certain npcs can be animated in a realistic fashion according to the job they might have, again, no guessing involved, no need to stat the npc and check its backround to find out if its a guard and what it watches and if it might have noticed this.

Its already there.

[Bebop]

With the current version I understand it is going down but what is with the clan imms?

Previously there were like two imms to a clan or so, I've noticed one -new- IMM running three major clans, one clan of which is actually multiple clans.  How can we fix this, or are we all just going to have to do without until the new game is up and running?  Which honestly I think most of us are anticipating at least another six months or -more- of this.

[Kalden]

Please, please, please keep the playerbase informed on the Armageddon blog. Your last entry (Gluing maps together) was a good read because you showed the RMBT is getting faster. Small and large steps alike should be noted in the blog, and seeing new updates daily or every other day would be optimal. A quick few sentences is all that's needed, really - the rest could be discussed on the GDB.

Yeah but these need to categorized (labeled with tags or whatever) for them to be useful. I want to learn about this project, but I've been away for a while. I shouldn't have to dig deep into all these forum topics to find out what the staff has proposed, and I shouldn't have to scroll through the blog to find out what the staff has said about races or specialization of characters. So tagging updates and such is good.

One thing that I would love to see is more of an openness to letting players help build the world for their character. You want to buy a house? Sure, you produce the coin, build the room (a staffer will screen it), and then RP out a scene with a Nenyuki banker, and you can have a house. You want an NPC slave? Same thing. You run a clan and you want to expand operations somewhere, or start some new business? Sure, you write the descriptions, have us screen them, and we'll work on it.

Players should be able to change the world. It will reduce staff load enormously and help create a more dynamic world. You want to burn down (or explode) a buildingr? Sure, let us know first so we can prepare, then maybe submit a draft description that a staffer can edit.

[Cerelum]

I read through the last page of this topic and am going to summarize what I feel I read.

"If I have a lot of karma, you should pay more attention to me and give me better service then you would to a newbie asking a question."

I disagree, though the people who have lots of karma tend to be the trustworthy and older players, if anything they should be more flexible with staff, having been here the longest.  At newbie who is brand new to the gritty and ruthless world of Zalanthas should be treated with the same level of respect and importance of even you dusty old people.  If anything, the newbies should be given a bit more attention then the older players to make sure that they enjoy their experience and understand what's going on around them, this way they are more apt to play and you old folks will have people to Kill/lead/mindbend/magick and all the other stuff.

[RogueGunslinger]

Wow, really grabbed that out of context, didn't you?

[mansa]

I read through the last page of this topic and am going to summarize what I feel I read.

"If I have a lot of karma, you should pay more attention to me and give me better service then you would to a newbie asking a question."

I disagree, though the people who have lots of karma tend to be the trustworthy and older players, if anything they should be more flexible with staff, having been here the longest.  At newbie who is brand new to the gritty and ruthless world of Zalanthas should be treated with the same level of respect and importance of even you dusty old people.  If anything, the newbies should be given a bit more attention then the older players to make sure that they enjoy their experience and understand what's going on around them, this way they are more apt to play and you old folks will have people to Kill/lead/mindbend/magick and all the other stuff.

I totally disagree.

Immortals should be setting up the world that we play in, and allowing the players to change the world.

Players should be the ones who teach other players what to do.  Players should be the ones who create items, rooms, npcs.  Players should be the ones that cause the world to change.  Players should be the people who take aside someone and teach them about the differences between the say and tell command.  The Players should be able to do anything.  The Players should have most of the responsibility of the game.   We are the ones that populate it.  We keep the Roleplay consistent and of high regard.  The Players should be able to help people.


Immortals should be setting up the world and fitting all the pieces that the Players have created into the correct slots of the World.


Newbies should be getting attention from older players instead of the immortals.  The older players should be able to do more things in this game if they want to.  There's some players who won't want to be an Immortal, ever, but who want to just help the new ones.   There's some players who all they want to do is group up with other players and go fight some beast in the waste, and don't want to create anything in the game.  There's some players who LOVE to create objects more than playing their own characters.

The focus of the game shouldn't be to become an Immortal - but to create a story within the game.

[LoD]

Immortals should be setting up the world that we play in, and allowing the players to change the world.

This is already done and possible in Arm 1.0, and I'm sure planned to continue in Arm 2.0.

Players should be the ones who teach other players what to do.  Players should be the ones who create items, rooms, npcs.  Players should be the ones that cause the world to change.  Players should be the people who take aside someone and teach them about the differences between the say and tell command.  The Players should be able to do anything.  The Players should have most of the responsibility of the game.   We are the ones that populate it.  We keep the Roleplay consistent and of high regard.  The Players should be able to help people.

There are parts of this I agree with, but much of which I do not.  The "Players" label encompasses far too wide and varied a group to depart so many responsibilities.  Many would have to small a view of the game world and all its components, not nearly enough to make command decisions about what, where, and when permanent structures, unique objects, and especially NPC's are brought into the game.  These things need to be carefully planned, screened, written, proofread, and implemented in a way that both makes sense ICly and sense with the rest of the community as it's been developed by the Imm Staff.

Players shouldn't be policing other players.  Players who aren't helpers shouldn't be communicating OOCly with other players on a regular basis in an attempt to "teach" them the game.  That already happens far too frequently and is largely responsible for much of the lack of "mystery" in the current game.  Players should be allowed a degree of responsibility related to the depth and effort of their character; players should expect to put in some time and overcome some obstacles to realize goals that introduce permanent or semi-permanent changes to the game.

Players can already help people by being helpers outside of the game, and helping OOCly where appropriate inside of the game.  We can already create semi-permanent and permanent changes to the game world.  We already have a good deal of power if we choose to pursue it.  It just isn't all hard coded and easy.  And I really don't think that it should be.  I know some people want to be able to do more than they currently can -- to build a structure somewhere in the city, to write up an object in game and quickly have it implemented, to submit NPC's for their clans or characters -- but all of this takes work not only to approve, edit, and create, but to ensure that the submissions are appropriate for the PC, the NPC's, and the VNPC's that inhabit that area.  There is work required to appropriately display the construction phases of the building and/or items dependent upon their size and complexity.

And any of us know how fast special app objects got approved when we played merchant characters, even after we wrote the desc and sdesc ourselves.  It got to the point where there were so many submissions, they had to stop special item orders for all but a previous few master craftsmen who were given a limit of one every RL month.

I agree that the Players need to have more say in how the world develops from a game play aspect.  Clans should be easy to form, they should have automated code that allow them to function with minimal Immortal support to address needs of real estate, guards, stores, warehouses, wagons, etc...but I believe the facilities should largely be designed and provided by the Imms rather than designed and created by the players, so that the space is used correctly and appropriately.  The Imms have already mentioned that players will be playing a larger role in the day-to-day plot developments and story lines in Armageddon 2.0. 

I AM for the hard coded ability to create temporary structures such as tents, trenches, holes, lean-to's, crude shacks, barricades, and makeshift portals (e.g. doors) that can both constructed and destroyed fairly easily and don't greatly affect the flow of game play for VNPC's, NPC's, and PC's through a particular room or area.  But I'd rather leave the implementation, construction, and introduction of large semi-permanent and permanent structure changes to the Imms which results in a fairly consistent and dependable environment for new and old players alike.

-LoD