The Non-Sexist Society

[NoteworthyFellow]

It has long been stated that Zalanthas, as a whole, is a non-sexist society.  I don't debate this; what I'm curious about, however, is whether Zalanthas takes this so far as to have no concept of gender.

I'll explain.  Anthropologists, at least, hold gender as something completely separate from sex: sex is biological, gender is purely cultural.  As such, because sexual discrimination is supposed to not exist on Zalanthas, and such discrimination in real life is mostly based on perceived gender roles, would there be no real concept of gender on Zalanthas?  Obviously, procreation can only result from the mating of a male and a female, but beyond that, there is little need for anything to be stereotypically "masculine" or "feminine".

So, in your eyes, is there a concept of the masculine or the feminine on Zalanthas?  Should there be?  How far does the non-sexism go?  If gender is nonexistent on Zalanthas, what is the prevalent view towards homosexuality?

[Only He Stands There]

There's no way that a completely non-sexist society that treats men and women as equals can exist, because men and women aren't equals.

I'm not saying "men > women" or "women > men", I'm saying "there are physiological difference, such as the fact that women get pregnant and men don't."

Unless one of the races in 2.Arm is asexual, there's no way a non-sexist society can really, truly exist. There are numerous things in 1.Arm that propagate sexism (in much more subtle forms, and generally not 'bad' forms), such as merchant house marriage contracts.

[Only He Stands There]

I completely missed the topic altogether, too - I apologize.

On that subject, yes - most sociologists and some psychologists view sex and gender to be two completely different things, one physiological and one social. I can't remember which is which, because I always confused the two.

One is what you're born with - a penis or a vagina, male or female.

The other is what society attaches to that - femininity/masculinity, the need to wear dresses and makeup/"manly" clothing, the need for emotional attachment/the need to procreate rampantly, so on and so forth.

Zalanthas has these gender roles, don't get me wrong - a guy wearing a dress is probably going to get made fun of - but not because he's "faggy" or anything. Nearly all of my PCs, male and female, have been bisexual, and only one has been called a "queer" once (in the recent slang sense). I've seen a lot of "babying" toward women PCs, but I've seen a fair amount toward male PCs recently, too.

A lot of times, it goes beyond "man wearing lots of silk = lol homo fag" or "woman in position in power must have fucked her way up there." A lot of times, it's "man wearing lots of silk = useless do-nothing" or "woman in position in power actually does fuck a lot of people but may not have slept her way to the top, and a man in the same position would have gotten the same jeer."

Sometimes, though, the blatant, overt sexism leaks in.

[staggerlee]

Here, this probably says more than I can:

http://www.zalanthas.org/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=11427

[Barzalene]

What I've observed is this: There are some types of characters that seem to divide down gender lines, however, I think that the world of Zalanthas sees a bit less of this than the real world.

Either it's cyclical or evolving, because I'm seeing less of the sort of attitude referenced in staggerlee's  link now, than I was when I started. I perceive an improvement, but then, I'm not everywhere all the time.

Also, I suppose improvement could be subjective. I think it's improvement, and I think current attitudes are more in line with the docs.

[Fnord]

So, in your eyes, is there a concept of the masculine or the feminine on Zalanthas?  Should there be?  How far does the non-sexism go?  If gender is nonexistent on Zalanthas, what is the prevalent view towards homosexuality?

I see gender equality as a totally different animal than masculinity and femininity.

[Winterless]

So, in your eyes, is there a concept of the masculine or the feminine on Zalanthas?  Should there be?  How far does the non-sexism go?  If gender is nonexistent on Zalanthas, what is the prevalent view towards homosexuality?

I see gender equality as a totally different animal than masculinity and femininity.

/agree

[NoteworthyFellow]

So, in your eyes, is there a concept of the masculine or the feminine on Zalanthas?  Should there be?  How far does the non-sexism go?  If gender is nonexistent on Zalanthas, what is the prevalent view towards homosexuality?

I see gender equality as a totally different animal than masculinity and femininity.

It is; however, "gender," as a concept, is, in the vast majority of Western societies, composed of traits that are considered "masculine" or "feminine."  Sex, of course, is purely biological: one is either male or female, in the overwhelming majority of cases.  There is plenty of debate as to whether gender is purely cultural/psychological, or whether it has biological roots as well, but regardless, what we call a "gender" is a role that a person plays in society in regard to what is stereotypically "male" or "female"--masculine or feminine.  Gender has very little to do with reproduction at all; that's what sex (both the category and the action) is for.  For a good example of this, look up societies that have third and even fourth genders.

For perfect gender equality, one would have to remove the ideas of masculinity and femininity from a society--it would have to be a gender-less society, in other words.  A (biological) man would have to be able to wear what our society now considered feminine clothing without it being considered out of the ordinary, and vice-versa.  Homosexuality would be a non-issue, in such a society; by that, I don't mean that it wouldn't exist, but that nobody would so much as bat an eye at it and would hold no opinion of it, positive or negative, as it would simply be part of life.  Such a society is, I think, an ideal, as sex--something that one cannot fully control, no matter what surgery one undergoes--would no longer determine anything about a person's life except what role they play in procreation.

My question largely had to do with Zalanthas in regards to that gender-less ideal: does sex only determine what role one plays in procreation on Zalanthas?  If not, where does the differentiation stop between the sexes?

[Gimfalisette]

My question largely had to do with Zalanthas in regards to that gender-less ideal: does sex only determine what role one plays in procreation on Zalanthas?

Yes.

Edited to add: Well, there are some small facets of society where physical sex determines role. The Orders of the Faithful in Tuluk, for example, and some noble houses where you can only get to the #1 spot if you're a particular sex.

But other than those small facets, sex has nothing to do with role.

[Troicha]

Just to chime in - there needn't be a complete erasure of the concept of gender in society to avoid sex-based discrimination. Rather, those roles just need to be completely divorced from sex. That is, there can be a division of roles, without a division of sex.

cf berdaches.

[LoD]

My question largely had to do with Zalanthas in regards to that gender-less ideal: does sex only determine what role one plays in procreation on Zalanthas?  If not, where does the differentiation stop between the sexes?

I don't know that you will find a definitive answer to this question.  The lack of sexism in Armageddon is largely an OOC construct designed so that players aren't forced to create a male character in order to enjoy the role of leader, bread winner, provider, protector, and any other gender roles commonly associated with the male in many Earth cultures.

Gender roles would develop due to several natural and biological factors, but an adherence to those roles would foster, and likely validate, sexist behavior.  And since it's been decided that sexism doesn't exist on Armageddon, you are left with an imperfect answer to your question.  There is no IC explanation as to why gender roles wouldn't have developed in Zalanthan society to the degree where cultural or social prejudices could be formed toward the male or female.  We, as a group of players, simply agree not to pursue the expression or integration of those sexist views into our RP.

-LoD

[staggerlee]

I think that to a large degree Zalanthan ideas of gender and sexuality probably end up mirroring North Americas.  They aren't supposed to and a lot of people are good about the way they rp it, bu they inevitably seem to.

From my very limited experience there are two genders on Zalanthas and the cultural expectations placed on those roles are much the same as North America.  

American society still hasn't gotten over it's love affair with John Wayne.  A good man is independent, strong, honorable and rugged and honest, perhaps to a fault.  A good woman is intelligent, pretty and useful.

I mean, take a random sample from a Zalanthas bar and tell me that's not the case, I see beautiful women and rugged men, rarely the other way around even if their gear and actions imply otherwise.  You can hold any job, but you're expected to still have your gender's appropriate characteristics.  Actually that's a lot easier to do on a mud too since "the porcelain skinned beauty" can spend her days hunting scrab without becoming all rugged and manly.

[staggerlee]

My question largely had to do with Zalanthas in regards to that gender-less ideal: does sex only determine what role one plays in procreation on Zalanthas?  If not, where does the differentiation stop between the sexes?

I don't know that you will find a definitive answer to this question.  The lack of sexism in Armageddon is largely an OOC construct designed so that players aren't forced to create a male character in order to enjoy the role of leader, bread winner, provider, protector, and any other gender roles commonly associated with the male in many Earth cultures.

Gender roles would develop due to several natural and biological factors, but an adherence to those roles would foster, and likely validate, sexist behavior.  And since it's been decided that sexism doesn't exist on Armageddon, you are left with an imperfect answer to your question.  There is no IC explanation as to why gender roles wouldn't have developed in Zalanthan society to the degree where cultural or social prejudices could be formed toward the male or female.  We, as a group of players, simply agree not to pursue the expression or integration of those sexist views into our RP.

-LoD

I think that's about the truth of it.  And it doesn't go far beyond choice of career unfortunately, it's hard for people to leave all their cultural baggage at the door.

If you want a good example of our cultural artifacts showing up in the mud I'd bet money that you could find one bisexual man for every fifty bisexual woman in the game.  

Actually a demographic study of gender in the mud compared to the stats from America would be really interesting, if someone had the time and data.

[Gimfalisette]

From my experience there are two genders on Zalanthas and the cultural expectations placed on those roles are much the same as North America.  

American society still hasn't gotten over it's love affair with John Wayne.  A good man is independent, strong, honorable and rugged and honest, perhaps to a fault.  A good woman is intelligent, pretty and useful.

I mean, take a random sample from a Zalanthas bar and tell me that's not the case, I see beautiful women and rugged men, rarely the other way around even if their gear and actions imply otherwise.  You can hold any job, but you're expected to still have your gender's appropriate characteristics.  Actually that's a lot easier to do on a mud too since "the porcelain skinned beauty" can spend her days hunting scrab without becoming all rugged and manly.

To be honest, having played a variety of female characters, I mostly disagree with you about how the playerbase as a whole ICly sees masculine and feminine qualities and desirability. Once upon a time, before playing more than one tough, kickass, no-nonsense woman, I thought that this type of character would be rejected or not treated well, just based on the fact that I wasn't seeing tough women being played. However, I have since found out through my own play and watching other female characters, we ARMers love a woman who kicks ass, curses, doesn't look perfect, and is far removed from the stereotypical white-skinned, unscarred, curvaceous, helpless beauty queen.

The "good woman" in ARM has pretty much the same qualities that the "good man" does: Strong, tough, intelligent, loyal, honest, hard-working, independent, direct. This is the ethic of Zalanthas, where survival is the highest priority.

Sure, I've seen some leakage of RL sexism into Zalanthas, sometimes really crazily blatant stuff which just makes me laugh. But overall, I think the playerbase does a really good job of keeping it out.

[Gimfalisette]

If you want a good example of our cultural artifacts showing up in the mud I'd bet money that you could find one bisexual man for every fifty bisexual woman in the game.  

Actually a demographic study of gender in the mud compared to the stats from America would be really interesting, if someone had the time and data.

Actually I currently know of more bisexual and homosexual male PCs in the MUD than bisexual or homosexual female PCs. Racking my brain...don't have my data with me while I'm at work ...but I'm thinking of 5 male PCs and like maybe 2 female PCs.

And what kind of demographic study did you have in mind?

[staggerlee]

Cool, I'd love to believe I'm wrong about that.  And since that's pure conjecture and not based up by fact, or even experience... odds are I am  wrong.  In that case I'm again forced to admit that the quality of rp in this game is really kind of incredible.


As for demographic data... look at who handles child rearing, how many openly gay or bisexual and women men there are, look at monogamous relationships, and so forth, and compare it to real world stats.   Oh christ I'm a geek.

[Gimfalisette]

As for demographic data... look at who handles child rearing, how many openly gay or bisexual and women men there are, look at monogamous relationships, and so forth, and compare it to real world stats.   Oh christ I'm a geek.

You are a geek, but you are also an atheist, so shouldn't you be saying something more like, "Oh science I'm a geek" or "Oh D&D I'm a geek" or, you know, not "christ"? Pray to your own gods, buddy

Anyways. I am pretty sure that any demographic survey done from data collected by me (or anyone) through the perspective of the PC they are playing would be badly skewed, because my PC and I don't know all those details about every character I meet. Maybe someone should special-app a "Tek's Designated Census Taker" character and go around asking the populace these questions.

Oh crap...now I want to PLAY that character...

[Marauder Moe]

Maybe someone should special-app a "Tek's Designated Census Taker" character and go around asking the populace these questions.

Oh crap...now I want to PLAY that character...

You were born for that role.

:wink:

[staggerlee]

I was raised christian in what remains a fairly euro-centric christian society, my speech patterns are a victim of that. HA

And yeah.  Basically this thread has just made me want to stop making wild uneducated guesses at how the mud works and go play a series of radically different personalities to see how people react to them.  That's probably more entertaining for everyone involved.

[Gimfalisette]

You were born for that role.

:wink:

Like I was just saying to a friend, I think I will also see if I can get the role expanded to include tavern-inspector:

Code Select Expand

The spindly, rat-faced man walks slowly around the tavern, glaring at various things and then scribbling in his notebook.

Forcefully closing his notebook with an emphatic, irritated-sounding *snap*, the spindly, rat-faced man turns and walks stiffly over toward the tall, amber-eyed bartender.

His voice high, nasal, and demanding as he fixes her with a beady gaze, the spindly, rat-faced man asks the tall, amber-eyed bartender, in sirihish:
     "Are you aware that you have no fewer than forty-six serious code violations in your tavern at this VERY MOMENT, miss?"

(Obviously a special-special app, with the literacy and all that.)

Basically this thread has just made me want to stop making wild uneducated guesses at how the mud works and go play a series of radically different personalities to see how people react to them.

You should definitely do that. I've been really surprised by the various ways that people have reacted to my different characters. I played my first tough chick over a year ago, put her in the Byn, and was sure no one would hit on her. I was very, very wrong  :shock:  Playing different character types and seeing how people react is a lot of fun.

[Rindan]

My completely unofficial view is this; men are still likely to be sexual aggressors simply because the cost to knocking someone up is nothing.  People are more likely to be heterosexual simply due to the fact that it is probably a good trait to have in a species that wants to keep reproducing.  

Other than that, you have a society that is generally equal do to a lack of physical strength difference.  The equality is more or less enforced at the point of a spear.  Tell your wife to get in the kitchen and cook you diner, and she is as likely to give you a black eye.  I imagine there would be much fuzzier gender roles in the real world if woman were just a big and strong as men.  In Zalanthas, there is no hundreds of thousands of years cultural and genetic evolution to enforce much in the way of gender role separations if woman have roughly the same physical strength.  Woman in the real world are more likely to find themselves in a subserviant role due to the fact that men are physically much bigger and stronger.  Try and enforce sexism against a group that is 50% of the population and your equal in martial contests, and you are likely to be in deep trouble very quickly.

As far as sexuality goes, in a world that is relatively gender blind, it isn't hard to picture a world that is homophobic free.  Hell, in human societies with ironclad gender roles you have plenty of instances where homosexuality and bisexuality are the norm through history.  It doesn't take a great leap of faith to imagine a world where gender is already relegated to the back burner having developed as much stigma to homosexual sex as your average American ascribes to oral sex (which is to say practically none). That doesn't mean that you are a freak for declining homosexual sex, just that it is a preference.  Think of view of homosexual relationships not one of taboo and revulsion, but more like how you might view having sex with an ugly person.  You don't decline sex with an ugly person of your sexual preference because it is taboo, but because you just don't find them attractive.

[Shiroi Tsuki]

Because I'm fascinated by these questions (sex/gender and leadership and sexuality), I've created a survey.  It doesn't contain any IC specific information, just general information.  Feel free to take it!  I'll post the results here in a couple of days.

http://freeonlinesurveys.com/rendersurvey.asp?sid=b9xjz6pq0nuvbsl352611

[Only He Stands There]

I think I took it twice. Whoops.

Needs a confirmation page instead of an ad page, heh.

[staggerlee]

That made me think about my character more than I expected.
You should post the results when your survey is "done".

Edit: I should learn to read, I guess you said you would post it already.

[Barzalene]

No options for female heterosexuals to choose children, or not choose children or not choose. That will skew the results I think.