The Non-Sexist Society

[NoteworthyFellow]

It has long been stated that Zalanthas, as a whole, is a non-sexist society.  I don't debate this; what I'm curious about, however, is whether Zalanthas takes this so far as to have no concept of gender.

I'll explain.  Anthropologists, at least, hold gender as something completely separate from sex: sex is biological, gender is purely cultural.  As such, because sexual discrimination is supposed to not exist on Zalanthas, and such discrimination in real life is mostly based on perceived gender roles, would there be no real concept of gender on Zalanthas?  Obviously, procreation can only result from the mating of a male and a female, but beyond that, there is little need for anything to be stereotypically "masculine" or "feminine".

So, in your eyes, is there a concept of the masculine or the feminine on Zalanthas?  Should there be?  How far does the non-sexism go?  If gender is nonexistent on Zalanthas, what is the prevalent view towards homosexuality?

[Only He Stands There]

There's no way that a completely non-sexist society that treats men and women as equals can exist, because men and women aren't equals.

I'm not saying "men > women" or "women > men", I'm saying "there are physiological difference, such as the fact that women get pregnant and men don't."

Unless one of the races in 2.Arm is asexual, there's no way a non-sexist society can really, truly exist. There are numerous things in 1.Arm that propagate sexism (in much more subtle forms, and generally not 'bad' forms), such as merchant house marriage contracts.

[Only He Stands There]

I completely missed the topic altogether, too - I apologize.

On that subject, yes - most sociologists and some psychologists view sex and gender to be two completely different things, one physiological and one social. I can't remember which is which, because I always confused the two.

One is what you're born with - a penis or a vagina, male or female.

The other is what society attaches to that - femininity/masculinity, the need to wear dresses and makeup/"manly" clothing, the need for emotional attachment/the need to procreate rampantly, so on and so forth.

Zalanthas has these gender roles, don't get me wrong - a guy wearing a dress is probably going to get made fun of - but not because he's "faggy" or anything. Nearly all of my PCs, male and female, have been bisexual, and only one has been called a "queer" once (in the recent slang sense). I've seen a lot of "babying" toward women PCs, but I've seen a fair amount toward male PCs recently, too.

A lot of times, it goes beyond "man wearing lots of silk = lol homo fag" or "woman in position in power must have fucked her way up there." A lot of times, it's "man wearing lots of silk = useless do-nothing" or "woman in position in power actually does fuck a lot of people but may not have slept her way to the top, and a man in the same position would have gotten the same jeer."

Sometimes, though, the blatant, overt sexism leaks in.

[staggerlee]

Here, this probably says more than I can:

http://www.zalanthas.org/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=11427

[Barzalene]

What I've observed is this: There are some types of characters that seem to divide down gender lines, however, I think that the world of Zalanthas sees a bit less of this than the real world.

Either it's cyclical or evolving, because I'm seeing less of the sort of attitude referenced in staggerlee's  link now, than I was when I started. I perceive an improvement, but then, I'm not everywhere all the time.

Also, I suppose improvement could be subjective. I think it's improvement, and I think current attitudes are more in line with the docs.

[Fnord]

So, in your eyes, is there a concept of the masculine or the feminine on Zalanthas?  Should there be?  How far does the non-sexism go?  If gender is nonexistent on Zalanthas, what is the prevalent view towards homosexuality?

I see gender equality as a totally different animal than masculinity and femininity.

[Winterless]

So, in your eyes, is there a concept of the masculine or the feminine on Zalanthas?  Should there be?  How far does the non-sexism go?  If gender is nonexistent on Zalanthas, what is the prevalent view towards homosexuality?

I see gender equality as a totally different animal than masculinity and femininity.

/agree

[NoteworthyFellow]

So, in your eyes, is there a concept of the masculine or the feminine on Zalanthas?  Should there be?  How far does the non-sexism go?  If gender is nonexistent on Zalanthas, what is the prevalent view towards homosexuality?

I see gender equality as a totally different animal than masculinity and femininity.

It is; however, "gender," as a concept, is, in the vast majority of Western societies, composed of traits that are considered "masculine" or "feminine."  Sex, of course, is purely biological: one is either male or female, in the overwhelming majority of cases.  There is plenty of debate as to whether gender is purely cultural/psychological, or whether it has biological roots as well, but regardless, what we call a "gender" is a role that a person plays in society in regard to what is stereotypically "male" or "female"--masculine or feminine.  Gender has very little to do with reproduction at all; that's what sex (both the category and the action) is for.  For a good example of this, look up societies that have third and even fourth genders.

For perfect gender equality, one would have to remove the ideas of masculinity and femininity from a society--it would have to be a gender-less society, in other words.  A (biological) man would have to be able to wear what our society now considered feminine clothing without it being considered out of the ordinary, and vice-versa.  Homosexuality would be a non-issue, in such a society; by that, I don't mean that it wouldn't exist, but that nobody would so much as bat an eye at it and would hold no opinion of it, positive or negative, as it would simply be part of life.  Such a society is, I think, an ideal, as sex--something that one cannot fully control, no matter what surgery one undergoes--would no longer determine anything about a person's life except what role they play in procreation.

My question largely had to do with Zalanthas in regards to that gender-less ideal: does sex only determine what role one plays in procreation on Zalanthas?  If not, where does the differentiation stop between the sexes?

[Gimfalisette]

My question largely had to do with Zalanthas in regards to that gender-less ideal: does sex only determine what role one plays in procreation on Zalanthas?

Yes.

Edited to add: Well, there are some small facets of society where physical sex determines role. The Orders of the Faithful in Tuluk, for example, and some noble houses where you can only get to the #1 spot if you're a particular sex.

But other than those small facets, sex has nothing to do with role.

[Troicha]

Just to chime in - there needn't be a complete erasure of the concept of gender in society to avoid sex-based discrimination. Rather, those roles just need to be completely divorced from sex. That is, there can be a division of roles, without a division of sex.

cf berdaches.

[LoD]

My question largely had to do with Zalanthas in regards to that gender-less ideal: does sex only determine what role one plays in procreation on Zalanthas?  If not, where does the differentiation stop between the sexes?

I don't know that you will find a definitive answer to this question.  The lack of sexism in Armageddon is largely an OOC construct designed so that players aren't forced to create a male character in order to enjoy the role of leader, bread winner, provider, protector, and any other gender roles commonly associated with the male in many Earth cultures.

Gender roles would develop due to several natural and biological factors, but an adherence to those roles would foster, and likely validate, sexist behavior.  And since it's been decided that sexism doesn't exist on Armageddon, you are left with an imperfect answer to your question.  There is no IC explanation as to why gender roles wouldn't have developed in Zalanthan society to the degree where cultural or social prejudices could be formed toward the male or female.  We, as a group of players, simply agree not to pursue the expression or integration of those sexist views into our RP.

-LoD

[staggerlee]

I think that to a large degree Zalanthan ideas of gender and sexuality probably end up mirroring North Americas.  They aren't supposed to and a lot of people are good about the way they rp it, bu they inevitably seem to.

From my very limited experience there are two genders on Zalanthas and the cultural expectations placed on those roles are much the same as North America.  

American society still hasn't gotten over it's love affair with John Wayne.  A good man is independent, strong, honorable and rugged and honest, perhaps to a fault.  A good woman is intelligent, pretty and useful.

I mean, take a random sample from a Zalanthas bar and tell me that's not the case, I see beautiful women and rugged men, rarely the other way around even if their gear and actions imply otherwise.  You can hold any job, but you're expected to still have your gender's appropriate characteristics.  Actually that's a lot easier to do on a mud too since "the porcelain skinned beauty" can spend her days hunting scrab without becoming all rugged and manly.

[staggerlee]

My question largely had to do with Zalanthas in regards to that gender-less ideal: does sex only determine what role one plays in procreation on Zalanthas?  If not, where does the differentiation stop between the sexes?

I don't know that you will find a definitive answer to this question.  The lack of sexism in Armageddon is largely an OOC construct designed so that players aren't forced to create a male character in order to enjoy the role of leader, bread winner, provider, protector, and any other gender roles commonly associated with the male in many Earth cultures.

Gender roles would develop due to several natural and biological factors, but an adherence to those roles would foster, and likely validate, sexist behavior.  And since it's been decided that sexism doesn't exist on Armageddon, you are left with an imperfect answer to your question.  There is no IC explanation as to why gender roles wouldn't have developed in Zalanthan society to the degree where cultural or social prejudices could be formed toward the male or female.  We, as a group of players, simply agree not to pursue the expression or integration of those sexist views into our RP.

-LoD

I think that's about the truth of it.  And it doesn't go far beyond choice of career unfortunately, it's hard for people to leave all their cultural baggage at the door.

If you want a good example of our cultural artifacts showing up in the mud I'd bet money that you could find one bisexual man for every fifty bisexual woman in the game.  

Actually a demographic study of gender in the mud compared to the stats from America would be really interesting, if someone had the time and data.

[Gimfalisette]

From my experience there are two genders on Zalanthas and the cultural expectations placed on those roles are much the same as North America.  

American society still hasn't gotten over it's love affair with John Wayne.  A good man is independent, strong, honorable and rugged and honest, perhaps to a fault.  A good woman is intelligent, pretty and useful.

I mean, take a random sample from a Zalanthas bar and tell me that's not the case, I see beautiful women and rugged men, rarely the other way around even if their gear and actions imply otherwise.  You can hold any job, but you're expected to still have your gender's appropriate characteristics.  Actually that's a lot easier to do on a mud too since "the porcelain skinned beauty" can spend her days hunting scrab without becoming all rugged and manly.

To be honest, having played a variety of female characters, I mostly disagree with you about how the playerbase as a whole ICly sees masculine and feminine qualities and desirability. Once upon a time, before playing more than one tough, kickass, no-nonsense woman, I thought that this type of character would be rejected or not treated well, just based on the fact that I wasn't seeing tough women being played. However, I have since found out through my own play and watching other female characters, we ARMers love a woman who kicks ass, curses, doesn't look perfect, and is far removed from the stereotypical white-skinned, unscarred, curvaceous, helpless beauty queen.

The "good woman" in ARM has pretty much the same qualities that the "good man" does: Strong, tough, intelligent, loyal, honest, hard-working, independent, direct. This is the ethic of Zalanthas, where survival is the highest priority.

Sure, I've seen some leakage of RL sexism into Zalanthas, sometimes really crazily blatant stuff which just makes me laugh. But overall, I think the playerbase does a really good job of keeping it out.

[Gimfalisette]

If you want a good example of our cultural artifacts showing up in the mud I'd bet money that you could find one bisexual man for every fifty bisexual woman in the game.  

Actually a demographic study of gender in the mud compared to the stats from America would be really interesting, if someone had the time and data.

Actually I currently know of more bisexual and homosexual male PCs in the MUD than bisexual or homosexual female PCs. Racking my brain...don't have my data with me while I'm at work ...but I'm thinking of 5 male PCs and like maybe 2 female PCs.

And what kind of demographic study did you have in mind?

[staggerlee]

Cool, I'd love to believe I'm wrong about that.  And since that's pure conjecture and not based up by fact, or even experience... odds are I am  wrong.  In that case I'm again forced to admit that the quality of rp in this game is really kind of incredible.


As for demographic data... look at who handles child rearing, how many openly gay or bisexual and women men there are, look at monogamous relationships, and so forth, and compare it to real world stats.   Oh christ I'm a geek.

[Gimfalisette]

As for demographic data... look at who handles child rearing, how many openly gay or bisexual and women men there are, look at monogamous relationships, and so forth, and compare it to real world stats.   Oh christ I'm a geek.

You are a geek, but you are also an atheist, so shouldn't you be saying something more like, "Oh science I'm a geek" or "Oh D&D I'm a geek" or, you know, not "christ"? Pray to your own gods, buddy

Anyways. I am pretty sure that any demographic survey done from data collected by me (or anyone) through the perspective of the PC they are playing would be badly skewed, because my PC and I don't know all those details about every character I meet. Maybe someone should special-app a "Tek's Designated Census Taker" character and go around asking the populace these questions.

Oh crap...now I want to PLAY that character...

[Marauder Moe]

Maybe someone should special-app a "Tek's Designated Census Taker" character and go around asking the populace these questions.

Oh crap...now I want to PLAY that character...

You were born for that role.

:wink:

[staggerlee]

I was raised christian in what remains a fairly euro-centric christian society, my speech patterns are a victim of that. HA

And yeah.  Basically this thread has just made me want to stop making wild uneducated guesses at how the mud works and go play a series of radically different personalities to see how people react to them.  That's probably more entertaining for everyone involved.

[Gimfalisette]

You were born for that role.

:wink:

Like I was just saying to a friend, I think I will also see if I can get the role expanded to include tavern-inspector:

Code Select Expand

The spindly, rat-faced man walks slowly around the tavern, glaring at various things and then scribbling in his notebook.

Forcefully closing his notebook with an emphatic, irritated-sounding *snap*, the spindly, rat-faced man turns and walks stiffly over toward the tall, amber-eyed bartender.

His voice high, nasal, and demanding as he fixes her with a beady gaze, the spindly, rat-faced man asks the tall, amber-eyed bartender, in sirihish:
     "Are you aware that you have no fewer than forty-six serious code violations in your tavern at this VERY MOMENT, miss?"

(Obviously a special-special app, with the literacy and all that.)

Basically this thread has just made me want to stop making wild uneducated guesses at how the mud works and go play a series of radically different personalities to see how people react to them.

You should definitely do that. I've been really surprised by the various ways that people have reacted to my different characters. I played my first tough chick over a year ago, put her in the Byn, and was sure no one would hit on her. I was very, very wrong  :shock:  Playing different character types and seeing how people react is a lot of fun.

[Rindan]

My completely unofficial view is this; men are still likely to be sexual aggressors simply because the cost to knocking someone up is nothing.  People are more likely to be heterosexual simply due to the fact that it is probably a good trait to have in a species that wants to keep reproducing.  

Other than that, you have a society that is generally equal do to a lack of physical strength difference.  The equality is more or less enforced at the point of a spear.  Tell your wife to get in the kitchen and cook you diner, and she is as likely to give you a black eye.  I imagine there would be much fuzzier gender roles in the real world if woman were just a big and strong as men.  In Zalanthas, there is no hundreds of thousands of years cultural and genetic evolution to enforce much in the way of gender role separations if woman have roughly the same physical strength.  Woman in the real world are more likely to find themselves in a subserviant role due to the fact that men are physically much bigger and stronger.  Try and enforce sexism against a group that is 50% of the population and your equal in martial contests, and you are likely to be in deep trouble very quickly.

As far as sexuality goes, in a world that is relatively gender blind, it isn't hard to picture a world that is homophobic free.  Hell, in human societies with ironclad gender roles you have plenty of instances where homosexuality and bisexuality are the norm through history.  It doesn't take a great leap of faith to imagine a world where gender is already relegated to the back burner having developed as much stigma to homosexual sex as your average American ascribes to oral sex (which is to say practically none). That doesn't mean that you are a freak for declining homosexual sex, just that it is a preference.  Think of view of homosexual relationships not one of taboo and revulsion, but more like how you might view having sex with an ugly person.  You don't decline sex with an ugly person of your sexual preference because it is taboo, but because you just don't find them attractive.

[Shiroi Tsuki]

Because I'm fascinated by these questions (sex/gender and leadership and sexuality), I've created a survey.  It doesn't contain any IC specific information, just general information.  Feel free to take it!  I'll post the results here in a couple of days.

http://freeonlinesurveys.com/rendersurvey.asp?sid=b9xjz6pq0nuvbsl352611

[Only He Stands There]

I think I took it twice. Whoops.

Needs a confirmation page instead of an ad page, heh.

[staggerlee]

That made me think about my character more than I expected.
You should post the results when your survey is "done".

Edit: I should learn to read, I guess you said you would post it already.

[Barzalene]

No options for female heterosexuals to choose children, or not choose children or not choose. That will skew the results I think.

[Shiroi Tsuki]

Yeah, that would have been a typographical error since I made the thing at 4am.  The second line of 'male heterosexual blah blah blah' should be 'female', as I think most people have figured out.  Judging by my PMs

[Shiroi Tsuki]

Oh, and the downside of using a free service is that you get the ad page instead of a 'thank you' page =p  I could pay twenty bucks to upgrade, but... ... no.

[Shiroi Tsuki]

37 responses so far.  I'd really like 50.  Poke some friends and have them take it?

Regardless, I'll post results here tomorrow.

[Marauder Moe]

We getting results?  I don't really have any hypothesis about the figures, but I'm curious anyway.

[Eternal]

I don't know that you will find a definitive answer to this question.  The lack of sexism in Armageddon is largely an OOC construct designed so that players aren't forced to create a male character in order to enjoy the role of leader, bread winner, provider, protector, and any other gender roles commonly associated with the male in many Earth cultures.

In some native american cultures the leader, bread winner, provider, protector and other gender roles were occupied by females.  The males were keepers of the homes and hunting was not a matter of brute strength but cunning and speed + dexterity.  Men raised the children and wore baubles (mainly bone piercings through various cartilage based parts of their bodies... and reproductive organs).

Sexism is a facet of social evolution in patriarchal societies, which are historically not a universal concept.  Matriarchal societies are far more prevalent in tribal cultures such as Aboriginal African and Native American.  

The differences in body makeup may have lead to and been reinforced by a form of social natural selection due to those men with greater strength have been more able to find mates under the patriarchal banner, though this is believed to be changing in industrialized nations as many 'weaker' men can make more money and status.  George Clooney and Van Damme are weaklings, but I doubt you have the social chances they now enjoy.  Schwartzenegger is far weaker than Tank Abbott, but again, physical strength only truly matters if you are hunting beasts that you cannot fight through more intelligent means (i.e. trapping, domestication, etc.).

Current sexism can be attributed in many ways to serfdom, where the more powerful the serf/slave, the more land they could till.  In the non-serf ranks, the more powerful the sword arm, the better he could combat others fighting -in the same fashion-. Not that many players choose the farmer role in ArmageddonMUD and sword arms might not prevail against magicks and asymmetrical combat, thus physical strength might not matter.  Also, there has been the discussion that female and male physiologies (especially those that have become naturally selected by patriarchal societies) could easily be dissimilar from those found in modern-day earth.  You do not currently have the physique of your Neanderthal ancestors, do you?

Besides all the cultural anthropology, there is, as you have noted, the play issues.  I don't want to be discrimated against in game because I am a black human instead of a tan one, nor would I wish to be discriminated against for having female sexual organs.  That is the kind of real-world ooc baggage that could turn Armageddon into less of a game, and more of a Second Life Text.  *shudder*  Sexism is a state of mind, it may currently be an accepted social norm, but not all cling to it to enforce their own sense of masculinity.

Our game allows for all sorts of discrimination that does not cater to those of a 'hate' mindset irl, allowing exploration on a more intelligent level.  It allows for the true purpose of most fantasy works: to gain insight into our own world through entertaining use of various masks and identities.

The snot-nosed, little brat says, in sirihish:
"Moooom!  Go back in the kitchen and make me some travel cakes!"

[staggerlee]

To build on what Eternal just said, out of pure interest, it's worth pointing out the role of industrialization in gender differentiation.  

In a cottage industry situation a family could conceivably live in one house, work together, sell/trade their product and subsist with relatively undifferentiated gender roles.  Around the time the industrial revolution hit people were forced out of their home for ridiculously long work days.  A lot of the time the whole family ends up at work, children included as they could crawl into the machinery while it was running and had small hands.   Small children were often swaddled and hung by the door, with laudenum or something rubbed on their teeth to keep them sedate.

Some time and bloodshed later, it becomes uncouth to drag babies to work, and women become increasingly relegated to home care and men to work.  Women get stuck with carrying for children, supplementing income with work around the home and carrying for the home.

There's a wide range of reasons that men wound up at work and not women... but the point is that the Armageddon economy -isn't- really industrially based and the differentiation of the sexes wouldn't be as big a deal.  

For the most part Allanak's family unit -looks- like a bunch of independent people in relationships that'd either fall into serial monogamy or polygamy, without anything to really encourage either sex to be the primary bread winner, or stay home, or a family unit that would support that kind of thing anyway.  

Really for either sex to handle the home life you need an economy that encourages/allows one person to make enough money to support the family and be too busy to do anything else.  Not to mention the stability offered by straight up monogamous relationships.

In short? It kind of makes sense that gender roles are loose.

[Shiroi Tsuki]

Top numbers are percentages, bottom numbers are real numbers.  Not everyone answered every question.

Total Responses Received: 40

Want to track who has or hasn't taken your survey? - click here for information

1) Are you (the player) male or female?
male      
60.0
24
female      
40.0
16

2) What is the sex (physical plumbing) of your current character?
male      
55.0
22
female      
45.0
18

3) What is the dominant gender (characteristic behavior) of your current character?
masculine      
40.0
16
feminine      
12.5
5
masculine with feminine leanings      
22.5
9
feminine with masculine leanings      
17.5
7
neutral      
7.5
3

4) Your character is a...
Male leader      
17.5
7
Male subordinate      
17.5
7
Male loner      
20.0
8
Female leader      
17.5
7
Female subordinate      
17.5
7
Female loner      
10.0
4

5) Your character is a...    Chart Wizard
Masculine leader      
25.0
10
Masculine subordinate      
15.0
6
Masculine loner      
20.0
8
Feminine leader      
10.0
4
Feminine subordinate      
17.5
7
Feminine loner      
12.5
5

6) Your character is predominantly a...
(For the purpose of this survey, bisexual means a character who enjoys both sexes more or less equally.  If your character is a male who predominantly prefers women and does not think about men sexually, but wouldn't turn down a man if a man jumped in his lap naked, consider your character heterosexual.  I realize this may generate argument about what is 'true heterosexual' blah blah blah, but some sort of definition is needed.)
Male heterosexual      
35.0
14
Male bisexual      
7.5
3
Male homosexual      
5.0
2
Male not interested in sex      
7.5
3
Female heterosexual      
17.5
7
Female bisexual      
12.5
5
Female homosexual      
0.0
0
Female not interested in sex      
15.0
6

7) What type of relationship(s) is your character currently in?
Heterosexual      
30.0
12
Relationships with both sexes      
12.5
5
Homosexual      
5.0
2
No relationships      
52.5
21

Total responses:   
40

How does your current character feel about children?
Male heterosexual who wants children      
10.8
4
Male heterosexual who does not want children      
10.8
4
Male heterosexual who does not care      
21.6
8
Male bisexual who wants children      
5.4
2
Male bisexual who does not want children      
0.0
0
Male bisexual who does not care      
2.7
1
Male homosexual who wants children      
5.4
2
Male homosexual who does not want children      
0.0
0
Male homosexual who does not care      
0.0
0
Female heterosexual who wants children      
2.7
1
Female heterosexual who does not want children      
8.1
3
Female heterosexual who does not care      
10.8
4
Female bisexual who wants children      
10.8
4
Female bisexual who does not want children      
2.7
1
Female bisexual who does not care      
5.4
2
Female homosexual who wants children      
0.0
0
Female homosexual who does not want children      
0.0
0
Female homosexual who does not care      
2.7
1

9) Your character is...
monogamous      
28.9
11
polygamous      
71.1
27

[staggerlee]

Okay, so today I learned that I'm a freak and a deviant.

In the game too!

[Marauder Moe]

What about the question about personality types?

[Shiroi Tsuki]

I only had a couple people answer it with anything other than 'I don't know' so I decided not to waste the time editing it.

[Marauder Moe]

Well let's see... what conclusions can we draw?

Well from what I can see it seems that perhaps playing both genders as equals means more female characters have masculine personalities.

It also appears that there is a relationship between leadership and masculinity (and subservience with femininity).  Hard to say if that's because masculine character seek out leadership roles or players feel they must exhibit masculine characteristics to lead.  Or maybe that leadership is itself considered a masculine characteristic.  The terms 'masculine' and 'feminine' are rather subjective, though, or at least very cultural.

[Morrolan]

Around the time the industrial revolution hit people were forced out of their home for ridiculously long work days.

Actually, it was the agricultural revolution.  The invention of the plow, specifically.  That was when it becamse more econimically beneficial for women to stay home and have lots of kids.  Which, sadly, left women out of control of their own means of production.

[staggerlee]

Yeah you've got a good point. But that was still the height of cottage industry.  The family was still together and split the labor somewhat, it was still a bit more organic as to who did what.

Technically that might've just meant women had to work even harder... but yeah.

I'd say that you're right, we can get the beginning there, but that it all became set in stone with industrialization.

I think it's kind of interesting that as feminism allows women into the work place, it also gets harder and harder for the majority of north americans to sustain a family on a single income.  I can't speculate on the causality there, but it's kind of disturbing either way I look at it.

[alger]

I hypothesize that in games, especially in text-based games, females are usually seen by their male counterparts as attractive beings no matter how repulsive they are.

This is mainly due to several factors like a lack of imagination, rl deprivation, laziness to read descriptions.

So actually saying that men ig are actually attracted to ugly women who have strong characteristics can be faulty if just based on numbers alone.  If it happens there is still a big chance it is because the partner doesn't really know how ugly the person is.

[Marauder Moe]

I've theorized that in text-based games people are attracted to personality (and/or roleplaying skill) over character descriptions.  Save perhaps in the case of individuals who are very good at visualizing (or maybe players who are very good at writing evocative descriptions), character descriptions simple don't trigger the primal, subconscious reaction humans experience when they look at attractive people.  I don't believe this phenomenon is limited to either gender, though some might say that it's more common for women to be attracted to personality over looks in real life anyway.

[Elgiva]

Hm. This survey made me to look what "Enneagram personality type" -is-. Then I could had no resist the urge to fill a test of such personality type for my current char. Quite amusing.

[Mood]

I hypothesize that in games, especially in text-based games, females are usually seen by their male counterparts as attractive beings no matter how repulsive they are.

This is mainly due to several factors like a lack of imagination, rl deprivation, laziness to read descriptions.

So actually saying that men ig are actually attracted to ugly women who have strong characteristics can be faulty if just based on numbers alone.  If it happens there is still a big chance it is because the partner doesn't really know how ugly the person is.

Or, the PCs just have no standards. My current PC is like this. I'd go so far as to say that the majority of commoners in Zalanthas would be like this... after all, Zalanthas is a hard place, and attractive folks (by Earth standards, at least) aren't easy to come by (this isn't exactly well represented by PCs). You try keeping soft, porcelain skin when you're getting blasted by hot sand whenever you take a step outside.

[staggerlee]

I've always felt that people in rp situations overlook ugliness an awful lot.  I've had characters of both genders get hit on more than I'd expect having written their description, I think that bearing and personality go a long way.

And they'll react to the description, so they obviously read it.

I don't think low standards entirely covers it, although sometimes I'm sure it does.

[Stroker]

Actually, it was the agricultural revolution. The invention of the plow, specifically. That was when it becamse more econimically beneficial for women to stay home and have lots of kids. Which, sadly, left women out of control of their own means of production.

What he was referring to is the X amount of hours worked far away leading to X amount of hours of sleep (occurring in one block). This happened during the industrial revolution. This may not be pertinent to the discussion, but the development of this 'irregular' sleep schedule occurred with Industrial Revolution.