You are here, the world is there

[Sanvean]

There's a problem that Ness and I have discussed at length a couple of times, and I wanted to open it up for feedback from the players and see how you think we should go about solving it - or even if it needs to be solved.

Basically, players overlook the virtual world when estimating their place in it, and tend to assume themselves much more important than they are. They react accordingly, staff tries to step in to explain why the position is unreasonable, and hard feelings and accusations of being repressed by the staff ensue.

Examples that I've seen over the course of the years, none drawn from current play

Nobles assuming they speak for an entire house - when in actuality they're a Junior member with no input into the Senate vote
Nobles assuming they can enslave commoners willynilly
Merchants assuming that they can threaten another house with a boycott - when in actuality, there's a number of elder merchants who understand the intricacies of trade a bit better - and are unwilling to forego a substantial profit for the sake of a minor member's injured pride
Templars threatening to raise taxes - or exile an entire house from the city

It seems (to me, at least) that sometimes players get confused because they're the only person dealing with other players - and forget the vastness of the social structure in which they play.

How to remedy this, though? One person suggested having staff members play more NPCs, but that's not a tenable suggestion - if we took on enough staff to ensure that a clan be represented 24/7, we'd have no one left playing. Scripted atmospheres, similarly, take up a lot of time and effort.

Traditionally, this has been addressed by documentation - descriptions which try to convey to the players the size of the clan, and its place in the world. Should we be focusing on making those documents more thorough - or is there some better solution?

[The7DeadlyVenomz]

While the documentation can certianly be improved (after all, what cannot be improved), I think that many of the players that act this way may be suffering from an ego problem. Not an OOC one, mind you, but rather an IC one.

Egos and indeed temper have historically been the downfall of many. Many a leader of a division or country has overstepped their power. Many a small business employee as acted as though he were in charge when he is not. I in fact also do this, IRL (Of course, I am in charge).

There is really no reason to change anything, from where I stand. If I am misreading this, please correct me. Bitchslap the PC IC, explain again to him, IC, where he is really in the world, maybe kill the fool for getting out of place, and go on. Quite seriously, there is no huge problem in my opinion.

Perhaps this time could be spent on changing the BS code instead, or adding scripts to the world and NPCs, or doing the skull idea.

[Fedaykin]

Personally, I do believe more thorough documents can combat that problem.  Some of the clan documents I've seen in the past have been rather vauge, particularly in the areas of numbers, which is something I think is rather important.

That Junior Merchant isn't going to make a problem or think he is as important if he realizes that he is one of a hundred or so of them.

That being said, there are times I do/would like to see players holding extremely powerful roles instead of everyone with tremendous power being an imm run NPC.  There are definetly instances of PC's achieving those ranks at times, but those times seem to be very few and far between.  Not to get off on a sidetrack here, but typically there seems to be a PC glass ceiling in powerful organizations simply for the purpose of keeping at least a few imm run characters above a player run character so they can't have complete freedom.

Maybe I'm wrong, but thats the way I have percieved things over the years.  If you even look in certain organizations, there seem to be NPC or VNPC characters who always hold the top position and don't seem to age.

To use Kadius as an example, as its in the clan information section of the webpage, it states: "Currently the head agent in Allanak is Tabitha Kadius."  Now, anyone who has been around a good number of years will probably have noticed that Tabitha Kadius has been the head agent for a long, long time.  Although out of Kadius is also the only example I remember of a minorly important character who was clearly old (Welen) being retired.  Perhaps every now and then such old characters need to be retired or die off, and player characters could have the chance to fill those roles, or at least new NPC/VNPC characters could replace them.  Again, thats totally a side issue to the one orginally presented though.

To sum up, I believe that enhanced documentation can solve some of the problems of people believing they are more important than they are, and on a side note, I would like to see there be more opportunities for player run characters to get the chance to become that important, given enough of a life span.

[Lazloth]

Additionally, I would think it important for clan imms to physically inhabit PCs' superiors on a regular basis (at least in the beginning of the House/clan tenure) to establish some level of propriety.  This has been the case for my clanned PCs -- the point being that the boss-employee relationship PC 'heads' cultivate with other PCs should extend upwards:  perhaps infrequent slip-ups with depositing house funds that necessitate interaction, special tasks for the month, yada yada.

[Lirs]

This is where I think the role of the clan imm is of great importance.

While I don't think it is necessary to inhabit clan superiors on a week to week basis I do believe that some interaction is necessary so the player doesn't feel they are acting in isolation.  In my own experience a brief meeting or a way message can do wonders to help enforce the pcs perception of their place in the house.  

Guidance from the clan imm and the documents is vital.  I think that perhaps some of the clan documents might need a little fleshing out.  It's hard to visualise your place in the scheme of things unless you know the hierarchy of your organisation, names of senior npcs and the duties of various house members.

-Lirael-

[Moe]

I think the answer is really documentation, better detailing what posistions a person in a house/organization/clan's actual Duties, Rights, and Powers are.  I think a lot of the problem is that most of it is vague and then the player doesn't know how thier pc should react to some situations.

I dont' think imms need to 'play' the higher up NPC's so much, as to occasionally switch into them and give the players a little more direction as to where they are confused, which they do do.

Another reason why most of the clan 'higher ups' are NPC's is because PC's die, and thus don't move up in the position in a house to the 'high up' positions that can take a lifetime of a char... I'm purely speculating here, but I would guess the average life of the playerbase is somewhere around 10-15 days playing time which equates to roughly 200 or 300 zalanthan days.. not even a year in Zalanthas. If you think about it thats really not that much at all. (I do understand that 10-15 days playing time equals a lot less then the actual time passed while the char played, but I think my point is still valid)

Another solution, could be to let players start in a higher position in a house, with a very clearly laid out role, detailing what thier duties/power/rights are.. could greatly benefit this.

-Moe the Schmoe
:evil:  :twisted:

[Master Z]

I think a document on how to play privileged roles in general might be nifty, even if a brief list of dos and don'ts. I think there was some talk of doing this in the past, and I still think it's a great idea. If something like this has already been completed, please correct me (and give me the link, heh). Also, a document that gives guesswork on the general size of organizations would be neat, again, if it doesn't exist already. Such a document might also give estimates for the population of each level of the organizations heirarchy.

As for people in "unprivileged" roles (if you will), well, learning your place is a part of learning what Arm is all about, and I think the current documentation and the whole learning the game process handles the situation as well as it can.

[Impska]

Some sort of doc relating to how to play a merchant/family member of a major merchant house might be useful - but since they all have their differences, it might be easier to just draw them up seperately for each house. I think most merchant houses have some sort of guidelines relating to this, however.

If you want to reinforce an awareness of rank, I've found it useful to have hierarchies mapped out for people. That way, you know exactly who's above you and can give them names.

Besides that, I would say that insightful feedback about the play of such characters is the best way to go. Although this could lead to cookie-cutter type merchants. Snobby/abrasive merchants and nobles make things interesting, and I'd hate to see all of the uniqueness of each character driven out in favor of "the ideal".

As mentioned by previous posters - a "Dos and Don'ts" list would be useless, as well as one detailing exactly what one's rights, priviledges and power consist of.

In the manner of contact with higher ups in the house, it would sometimes be nice for players to be given an awareness of what their house is up to, once in awhile. Sure, most nobles don't impact how the Senate votes, but they would know how their house voted on the latest resolution, know what their house stands for, no if their house is trying to push any new resolutions, etc. House gossip - who got promoted/demoted/were married/born/or died that year. That sort of thing would give a better impression of an organization that's "bigger than you". I know that's just more work for clan imms, but it's just an idea.

[Hoodwink]

I can't say this is a suggestion necessarily, but I've always felt it noteworthy that players are able to play in upper noble houses but not lesser.  Would a Borsail -- perhaps the highest standing form of nobility in the known world -- truly even want to sit in the same chair a commoner may have at the Trader's Inn?  Would someone that high really mingle with commoners on a regular basis?  I can perceive lesser nobles mingling a lot more freely with commoners than I can high nobility.  I've had the privelage of noticing that some noble estates aren't even coded, such as House Jal; these estates have a gateway that leads to nowhere.  I'm not sure I would exactly suggest we open lesser nobles to players and close all upper nobles, keeping them for NPCs, but it sure seems to make a lot more sense to me if this were the case.  Especially when you consider things like: players thinking they possess more power than they really do.

Just a thought.

[EvilRoeSlade]

Quite simply, I think that any Noble or Templar PC should have a detailed talk with their clan immortal in order to help define that character in the place of things.  My best guess, and I'm obviously not in the know on any particular situation, is that the failure of a noble or templar to play their part correctly can be directly related to the failure of whatever staff member who is responsible for the player to explain his or her role.  

I've never asked to play a Noble or Templar as of yet, and the reason is because it would be playing a character with a completely different viewpoint on the world (compared to a half-giant), who has completely different responsibilities (than a half-giant) and totally different goals and motivations (as opposed to a half-giant).  If I didn't have a staff member to figuratively hold my hand, at least at first, then I'd almost certainly fail just because I need some help getting my bearings and figuring out what I'm expected to do.  What kind of favors should I expect from a templar?  What should I do if the templar snubs me?  Suppose I had an idea for the advancement of my House?  Who should I take it to?  How would I gain support for the idea?  As a non spice-smoking templar, why the hell do I need to maintain relations with House Kurac?

[John]

This is a problem that plagues a lot of areas of Armageddon. And the players have been working pretty hard to stop it (such as having people stop bowing to Templars whenever they see them) and a lot more can be done.

As for the clan problem, I can only think of one other thing that hasn't been said. Instead of inhabiting senior NPCs on a regular basis (which would be a lot of work) play out the V/NPCs virtually. What I mean is..

• the Senate meets on a regular basis if IIRC so have a board that only nobles can access and put up what the Senate decided (if it's something other nobles would know about).
  
• If a clan's structure changes then have a senior Noble say why it happened on the message board.
  
• Have a Senior Noble want something done (such as wanting wine's from House Oash) and have him palm the job off onto a Junior Noble.
  
• Make the Senior Noble become threatened of a Junior Noble that's becoming quite powerful and react accordingly (perhaps by fabricating a difficult situation hoping for the PC Noble to handle it badly so the Senior Noble can demote the PC Noble and raise another PC Noble in his place who'll hopefully not be as ambitious). Although this one takes more time.
  
• Have Virtual Junior Nobles do something foolhardy and then have servants talk about how they heard the Senior Noble berating him, and now he's been demoted to being in charge of village X.

Just some ideas for making Virtual Nobles seem more active for a minimum amount of effort.

[Angela Christine]

I'd also like to see suggestions for things to do when you are bored.  You have a set of official duties, but chances are that they don't occupy all your time.  With a new character you can kill a lot of time finding the clothes you want, but after that . . . in can be hard to think of non-virtual goals.  Sure, you are supposed to work on raising the esteem of your house, and your position within the house, but what does that mean?

I think noble PCs sometimes turn to harrassing commoners or hanging out with commoners because they have nothing better to do.  For the majority of nobles and templars going hunting is unacceptable, as are most forms of crafting.  Unless you are in charge of a troop of actual PCs, the only thing to do is sit around in a tavern waiting, or sit around the estate wating.

Merchants have it a little better, they usually have a staff or are trying to hire one, a merchant can interact with people of any rank, and they often have some coded crafting skills.  If things get dull, they can always pack up the wagon and head to another city.  But they still seem to spend a great deal of time sitting in taverns waiting for customers and underlings.  

Just a thought.

AC

[The Lonely Hunter]

I didnt read every reply so forgive me if this has been said already.

Perhaps extra docs to go along with the clan docs that actually outline the basics of their actual 'power' and what is not appropriate along with some examples? Given each and every situation can't be listed but if you can offer some I'm sure they can base their choices off of those.

[Anonymous]

Basically, players overlook the virtual world when estimating their place in it, and tend to assume themselves much more important than they are. They react accordingly, staff tries to step in to explain why the position is unreasonable, and hard feelings and accusations of being repressed by the staff ensue.

Maybe if a player can't take a criticism or a suggestion from the staff and act upon it, then you are allowing the wrong people to play merchants, nobles, and templars.  Idunno.

[Bestatte]

Couple of tips for playing in a Merchant House:

1) Just because you're the only active PC merchant in that house, doesn't mean you're the only Merchant in that house. The houses are families, designated by their last names. ALL Houses are families. You are not the only member of that family. You have cousins and parents (dead or alive) and possibly siblings and aunts and uncles and neices and nephews. Each house is represented in the Senate - by its own Senator. That means there is ALSO a senator in your house, somewhere. There are also your Seniors/Elders, who you answer to when you fuck up.

2) Just because you are a crafter in a Merchant house doesn't mean you have the authority to speak on your boss's behalf - unless he tells you specifically that you may. Regardless of your relationship with the Family member, you are still nothing more than a crafter commoner. If you pretend to be anything more than that, expect a chat with the Senior member of that house.

3) Remember at all times that you are a Junior Merchant, or Merchant, and that a Senior Aide of a Noble house is technically higher ranking than you. This doesn't mean you have to fawn over the Senior Aide, but it does mean you would probably not want to piss him/her off without risking the ire of HIS boss - the Noble. This is a very difficult concept to accept, because without the Merchant houses, the Nobles would have no means to equip their guards, or acquire fancy clothes, or get decent-quality spice, or keep their 'sids secure in a bank.

Nobles and Templars rely on the Merchant houses for their livelihoods. But it's a very careful reliability. Merchants rely on customers to pay for their goods and services. Most people who have enough 'sids to keep Merchants eating well and living in gorgeous estates are either nobles and templars, or aides of nobles and templars, or secondary employees of nobles and templars. So you need to play nice, at least out in the open. Any plotting and scheming should probably be done behind the scenes and out of sight of the general public.

Merchants should put on a pretense of getting along in front of others. And probably in front of each other as well. There is nothing more unsettling than the merchant houses at odds with each other. Makes the rest of the citizens wonder if their new baobob desk is gonna actually be dlivered, or if the apartment the desk goes to won't suddenly be unavailable for delivery to the merchant who makes the desk.

Again, plot and scheme to your heart's content, but it probably isn't a good idea for anyone outside your own family to know about it.

[Anonymous]

Wasn't there a doc listing social standings?  I would think something like this could be further expanded to list the relative power of each step on the social ladder.

So not only would a noble family member know they are on an even footing, more or less, with a Blue robe, but they would also know what that entails and just roughly how much of their weight they can throw around without looking stupid.

[marko]

For players to know their place in the overall world (the big picture if you will) they need to be aware of it from the inception of the character and reminded of it as they play their character.

Clan PC leaders - they need to have access to communication with their elders and not be left stranded for any length of time.  Whether this communication is done ICly (by imms animating the higher ranked NPCs) or via email or messages on the board sdoes not matter - the communication must occur so the player is aware of their place.  Otherwise players will make the assumption that they speak for the House because, for all intents and purposes, to the other players they do.  

So long as the clan leaders are aware of the situation it will be passed along to the entire clan and then the entire population base.  

More documention is always good but PCs need the reinforcing that only communication can give them.  Communication is key - if only to remind players that they are still on the lowest rung of the noble heirarchy or that they are 'merely' a junior merchant (and to do so _before_ any event occurs where the player has possibly erred in the view of the immortals).  

Each clan could have a document listing the 'standard' responsibilities of each rank.  The problem with this is that many PCs tend to sit in multiple roles of the lowest rank - which by action makes them of greater importance than the standard.

Now, I am currently blessed by being in a clan that has an amazing immortal directly involved with it and another who sits 'higher up' so to speak.  I've also heard many good things about some other House imms from the  few people I speak with OOCly,  so I'm not certain how pertinant this is; but they are my thoughts all the same.

[zanthalandreams]

Basically, players overlook the virtual world when estimating their place in it, and tend to assume themselves much more important than they are. They react accordingly, staff tries to step in to explain why the position is unreasonable, and hard feelings and accusations of being repressed by the staff ensue.

I quoted it because after reading so many replies, I had to go back and look again at the original question.  

"assume themselves much more important than they are."  I like that line because I have not only been guilty of that, but I've been annoyed when other people in my clan have been guilty of it.  Here are a few causes that I feel add to the problem:

1)  One of the causes of is the practice of purely OOC motivated promotions.   For instance, the warrior who has been in a House for less than two IC years is all of a sudden the new Commander General of the House Lee Golden Dragons Elite Commando Squad.   I make the accusation of these promotions being purely OOC motivated because, while understandable, they are.  The OOC motivation is that the clan imm doesn't have the time or energy to inhabit every level of authority for every PC in a clan (who might have up to four different command structures, depending).   Get a PC who looks like they'll stay, give them the Gold and Steel Epaulettes and send them off to recruit and lead.   In theory I can agree with this.   In practice it tends to inflate the player's concept of self-importance in the grand scheme of things.   It isn't all that common, but it is common enough that I've seen plenty of Commanders du' Jour.

2)  At the risk of contradicting my first point, I think another cause would be a complete lack of reasonable promotions.   Either due to immortal and untouchable NPCS inhabiting certain levels of command or due to PCs who are, in effect, "camping out" in their ranks by never logging in, never doing much.  Having been in that position, feelings of repression are natural and so a player is much more inclined to act drastically.

3)  Lack of communication from Clan Imm is another cause.  Praise Whira that my clan has an amazing, active, and authoritative Imm.  But I've been through 3 clan Imms and the periods between when there was none and when your PC in a leadership role has no road-map of acceptable goals from the Higher Ups. . . then the feeling of "Do something, even if it might be wrong" is pretty strong.   When your only contact or communication from your Clan Imm is to point out how you screwed up something, it can cause resentment.   Not that this is always the case. . . but miscommunication often breeds confusion.

4)  Unclear or conflicting documentation.   I'll add to this mis-interpretation of clan documentation.  I have had cases where my interpretation of a certain passage was just different enough from a clan leader's interpretation to cause problems which then got the clan imm involved who, at the time, had a different interpretation than either of us.  



--------------
Now, the ideas on how to remedy or prevent this?   I don't think I can add anything to the ideas I've read so far.   I like them and though of some of them myself.  One of the things that has worked very well in the clan I am currently in is that our clan Imm (who is, I mean. . sorry guys, but we got the best) will inhabit the NPCs directly superior to the current PC leader and take reports, give instructions, outline goals.   This keeps the PC leader in line, makes that PC remember that while they may be A top dog, they aren't THE top dog, and it clearly communicates expectations / disappointments / and praise in a much less intimidating way than getting an angry email from a staff member.

Phew.. okay, I've said enough.

[Twilight]

Lets say a player comes along and joins something like the Tor guards.  Their sources of information would be room descriptions, NPCs, other PCs and Imms (this includes documentation).  Somewhere, in those four categories, they need to find all the information to figure out their position.  A lot of their relative position has to due with how many  VNPCs are out there...but those VNPCs aren't doing anything for the player unless one of the four above things, that the player has access to, mentions them, and the player takes note of it.

Room descriptions are great.  In Clan X's compound, they can mention how many people are milling about.  They could give information on the varying ranks one would expect to find in various places.  The first I will admit I've seen a bit of, the second I can't remember off the top of my head a place like that.

If you give your NPCs the same distribution of relative importance as VNPCs, its a -big- help.  Suddenly a player has a reference.  If a player wanders around their clan's compound, and just because they are a captain or whatever, and all the NPCs are lower rank, and all the VNPCs mentioned in the room descriptions are lower rank...it is no wonder they think themselves high in rank.

PCs in the clan, especially in authority positions, have to pass on the right information, and put people in their place once in awhile.  And, important here, you have to pass on -history- people.  Its a big, big plus in being able to place your importance, but I've been in several situations where my superior couldn't even pass on the history of their clan.  The more you operate in a void in terms of previous PC interactions and actions, the more you are going to misjudge.  Also, PCs in roles of responsibility need to take it seriously.  I had a character, long, long ago, who was given guild leader codewise by another player and told he was now the dokhar, after being in the clan about a week and a half real life.  Nothing else, no docs, no in-game support for my role.  A bit of a drastic example, but it happened and I basically fell down flat on my face trying to be a clan leader.

Documentation has always been a help, when I have seen it.  Problem is, whatever the documentation says, players tend to judge the overall social structure based on the PC social structure.  I don't know how to get around this, really, beyond what others have already suggested.

[LoD]

I think there are three key factors toward keeping these things in check.  These are in addition to being careful about whom you recruit to handle the diplomatic job of being a House Merchant or Agent.

Documentation

I believe that you need to have sufficient documentation and communication with your clan to be successful.  Each Clan should have at least one active Imm that watches over the most basic operations and is available for questions and clarification when needed.  The documentation should also give the agent a clear goal on what they are expected to do, what they will be paid and how they will be paid.

Even a welcome letter may be of use, something along the lines of:

It is Waleuk, the 17th day of the Descending Sun,
In the Year of Ruk's Agitation, year 70 of the 20th Age.

Welcome to House Ju.

Your training with the House has just begun and many fellow merchants and men mingle about the estate with varied expressions of excitement, awe and interest.  Your are joining a long line of successful and wealthy merchants whom handle business for one of the Great Merchant Houses of the Known World.

House Ju deals primarily in leather, and while there are several other aspects of its sales that will involve your attention, the primary focus of your business ventures should be the buying and selling of leather to clients.  Life as a merchant is both demanding and rewarding.  There are a great many things you will have to learn to distinguish yourself from the many other agents in service today.

There are approximately 50 Junior Agents in each of the city-states.  Each Agent branches to make contacts with other merchants and commoners in the effort to move the products of House Ju.  There are even times when Junior Agents may have the chance to deal with and negotiate with representatives of Noble Houses and the templarate when called upon, while these are usually the province of the Senior Agents.

As a Junior Agent, there are a few things you should know:

-You report to a Senior Agent, who is in charge of a large amount of agents all coordinating sales and contracts.
-You have the right to negotiate for the sales of House products as well as recruit a small amount of hunters, guards and craftsmen to further your business.
-You are responsible for your actions and the actions of your men.  If you anger the local government or disrupt friendly relationships with long-standing clients, your position will be terminated immediately.
-If there is a problem with an employee, templar or House - please inform the Senior Agent immediately.  All matters of major diplomacy will be decided by the Family and your role relayed to you at a later date.
-You will have access to a portion of House Ju's bank account.  If you go above this portion, you will be terminated.  These funds will be replaced every year to satisfy your needs to hire the appropriate men and women to serve.

Goals

As a player, I think goals are very important to the success of a clan and its members.  Setting forth a list of expectations and reasonable goals will help players have a better grasp of what they're expected to do.  When coupled with the potential for advancement or special 'bonuses' - this can be an extremely effective motivational tool.  It also reinforces the existance of a 'superior power' within the House that is monitoring their work.

Such goals may be:

-Bring in 5000 'sid profit in one year.
-Bring in 5000 'sid profit in one month.
-Maintain a House Guard of 5 men for 2 years.
-Develop a new product for next year.
-Find a local supplier for red sandstone.

When the player completes the goal - give them the reward.  Perhaps it is a small token that would show that they meet goals on time.  Perhaps it would be a nifty outfit.  Maybe enough of them would be the use of a wagon.  Or perhaps you could have set goals for each Agent so they could work toward their goals to be able to get things they want.

Goals 1-5 = Use of 1 NPC guard
Goals 5-10 = Use of the House Wagon
Goals 11-15 = Extra 20% on Annual Spending Allowance for Guards

Something along that line.

Interaction

I think there still needs to be -some- interaction between the Agents and the higher-ups that the need to report to.  In the T'zai-Byn there was an annual graduation of the base recruits where the Commander would show up and give a small speech.  This was really good because it gave all of the people in the clan a chance to see who was in charge and was sort of a special moment.  I would suggest more hands-on sort of moments like this, even if they are just once a month.  Get all the people in the clan together that you can, show up with a higher-up, talk about how business has been going, commend a few people, maybe give out some promotions and go about your way.

Even if they are not played often at all, I still think it is very important to have an NPC or two that are authority figures in each estate.  This will at least let PC's interact, report ICly and refer to someone above them when they have a question or something.

My thoughts.

-LoD

[aeshyw]

I should preface this with saying I've been guilty more then once of making this very error, and of having it made by others about my character.  So, I suppose any opinion I have could either be taken as having arisen from experience, or dismissed as coming from someone who stumbles into the very trap being discussed.

In any case, my responses would be:

Documentation: What LoD said.  I really don't have much to add to that, except that  I would like to see a little more history revolving around PCs in the Clan Docs.  Perhaps longer-lived characters could be allowed to add a short 'oral' history of things that might get passed down among family and servants to the website upon their death. (assuming of course, nothing involving current events is given away)

Goals:I don't think this can be stressed -enough-.  While some Commoner PCs, particuarly in military organizations, may get promoted to soon, the opportunity for nobles to progress is almost non-existant.  I would love to see more levels of authority within the noble houses, more jockeying for position and more accountability for actions not just to one's self, but to the house in general. I can't really go further into explanation about that without revealing IC info, but I have seen many nobles do things that would almost seem to hurt their families, just for some whim or other.  If they were held to task for it, things might be more interesting.  Mostly, I just see such actions ignored entirely.  I would also like to see actions taken by nobles within the house that -do- help rewarded generously.  I've not seen much occur when they've accomplished their tasks yet.

NPCs and IC Interaction:I know that IMMs are busy people.  I know they have real lives.  But I sure wish that more of this type of interaction could occur. It brings a clan and the game world utterly to life when the senior level NPCs start to supervise things a little more closely. Matter of fact, if I can toss in a quick plug - even though I'm not currently in his clan, Cerebus did this amazingly well.  He really has a knack for drawing you into the entire 'feel' of a setting with his emoting and rp'd NPCs.  NPCs aren't just to pass down the rules, IMHO; they make the clan seem much bigger then its PC population.

I'd love to see multiple IMMs assigned to various bigger clans.  Perhaps one senior level IMM who would be in charge of consistancy and policy, and another who might either be a junior staff member or run another clan as the senior and who would have a couple clan NPCs and would help tend to minor requests when the senior is busy.  I've seen a lot of good players do stupid things just because they lack the direction and discipline that an occasional kick in the rear from an NPC can give.

[God]

I think another major issue is that the only people who can manipulate the world are PCs. Although time passes by rapidly, you never hear anything about what the rest of the world is doing. Apparently they are static, there are no upheavals, no major events. Maybe I'm wrong, but if PCs  hadn't pushed for Tuluk's liberation, it wouldn't have happened. With time passing this rapdily, there should be tons of stuff happening.

Give some OOC notes(Maybe on the GDB?) telling some regular events that are happening for each region. If you live in the 'rinth, news about new gangs, money, badasses. For a noble, news about what's happening in the Senate. Ect, ect.

Also, consider having an IC census or two. One in Allanak and one in Tuluk, detailing population, % of different races, number of people in certain professions. On one MUSH I played they had polls about common issues, but that probably wouldn't work on here.

Gotta run.

[SailorMars]

A few months ago, as an Arm n00b, I found the documentation very deep and useful. It was enough for me to work with starting out... however, as I got playing, many questions came up that required OOC conversations to understand (simply because I couldn't find an IC info source).

Another option I'm hearing is more imms playing PCs. Viable, but I'm guessing most imms code, and to add heavy play time on top might be difficult.

I'd suggest scoring some internet chat software and setting up themed OOC chats that happen maybe twice a month, or whatever the administration can handle. Ideally, these would fall on Saturday during maintenance, so people could still get their crack fix while the MUD was down.

Perhaps set up a mailing list where players can suggest subjects that they could benefit from learning more about. Pick whichever subject gets the most votes first, the next one second, etc. Hold the chat for an hour or whatever is reasonable for the host(s). This way players could either be instructed, or do Q & A real time with Those In The Know. Keep everything on an OOC level.

This could work wonders to fill in the blanks on "presumed knowledge" your character should have, but you as a person might not. Perhaps log the chat, and extract some of the better points as addendum to the online documentation... or start a new website section of chat logs.

Just a thought...

Edit: Typo fixes.

[Swordsman]

Sanvean: "Basically, players overlook the virtual world when estimating their place in it, and tend to assume themselves much more important than they are. They react accordingly, staff tries to step in to explain why the position is unreasonable, and hard feelings and accusations of being repressed by the staff ensue."

IMO, I think the main problem is with people new to a role not being inducted into it thoroughly ... so one good solution might be to revise this (for each role/clan as appropriate). Although the examples given were mostly of merchants and templars, which are special roles, I think the same goes for a lot of general roles, too. I can think of many situations where new military recruits were grossly disrespectful or disobedient to veteran leaders (even ones not played by me, heh) where basically the situation became so unrealistic that it was ludicrous.

Here's the problem: inducting someone takes a lot of effort, no matter which way you look at it. If you do it mainly through docs, you've got to put a lot of work into the docs and often I suspect the people writing the docs are people who 'know too much' (like 'the programmer is the worst person to write the manual because he/she knows it all already' or 'never proofread your own essays, always get someone else to help do it'). And it gets even tougher if you try and do it by ICly playing it out, particularly if it's left to the same leaders time after time. Worse is when some leaders do it and some don't, and you end up with a pretty obvious (IMO) disparity between recruits who were inducted thoroughly and those who weren't. (The former tend to act more realistically and the latter pretty casually.)

I've never played a special merchant/noble/templar role myself, but I'd be willing to guess (and this is no criticism of anyone, since I am just guessing) that there could be an attitude of 'well, he/she's an experienced player, I'm sure he/she'll work him/herself out just fine' by the imms. After all, why not? If you've just picked someone to play a really trusted role, chances are they have some RL intelligence to them. But intelligence can't always make up for the lack of a good, thorough induction. As I said, this is all just a guess on my part and I could be completely wrong. I usually stay with fighter types myself, where the basic principle's 'obey or die' ... nice and simple.

As a veteran recruiter, I always try to make sure that someone new into a group I lead or help with gets a serious talking-through about the situation. They are new. They are at the bottom. It doesn't mean that they have to take rubbish from everyone else, but it does mean they don't dare give out any themselves. It means they toe the line. They are here to work/serve/whatever, not to be served. Etc. To balance all this out, I think it's good to point out what they're getting, too. I've seen some recruiters basically say 'oh yeah, and by the way you get free food and water and a bed while you're with us.' That's a poor way to go about it IMO. Use that opportunity to stress just how valuable free food, water, and lodgings are. If you the recruiter treat the benefits as being nothing special, the recruit will pick up on this attitude and so you can't expect him/her to play out a grateful new recruit very well. Yes, not all leaders are the same, not all recruits are the same, personalities differ ... I'm just talking generally.

Inducting someone new is probably something a lot of leaders see as boring. I know, I've been there. When you go through several PC recruits each month, month after month, it does get tiresome. I don't know if there's any good solution for this, other than the obvious 'train up more leaders' and such. But one thing you might try and do, as a leader, is try to spice up the induction process. Instead of always lecturing in the same room, try changing location, style (ask the recruit questions, which will make him/her think about the answers), and maybe order of points that you go through. That way you keep it vaguely fresh for you, and when you approach it fresher, chances are it'll be more interesting for the person you're inducting. If you've got more than a couple of leaders doing inducting, try to standardise a lot, so that you don't get wild variations between leader A who took a recruit through the works and leader B who just points the recruits to the barracks and that's it. Not a criticism of anyone particularly, just some hopefully constructive criticism.

To what zalanthandreams said about people being promoted more for OOC reasons, I agree with the sentiment. When someone who's obviously ICly inappropriate (too ICly inexperienced, too ICly immature, wrong IC personality, etc.) gets promoted, it just basically brings the OOC morale of everyone else in the clan down IMO. Better not to have someone officially in leadership, and temporarily delegate authority to someone else, rather than officially promote someone and end up with a clown in charge. If this happens, it basically gives the message that 'the imms don't care' (whether rightly or wrongly). And if the imms don't care, why should you?

Basically, the main aim of getting inducted into a clan (in this game) should IMO be to thoroughly get the player out of an OOC mindset and into an IC mindset. And this takes work. Lots of it.

All IMO.

Swordsman

[Callisto]

I've always thought that more frequent player-staff meetings would go a long way in solving problems like this.

Maybe one per month, each one having its own theme. One month it could be a discussion about ways to improve the combat code, another could be a discussion about leadership roles, etc.

Its fine to discuss things on a message board, but I find people are more creative and receptive when its more of a group discussion, rather then a post-by-post reply system.

Just a thought.