You are here, the world is there

[Sanvean]

There's a problem that Ness and I have discussed at length a couple of times, and I wanted to open it up for feedback from the players and see how you think we should go about solving it - or even if it needs to be solved.

Basically, players overlook the virtual world when estimating their place in it, and tend to assume themselves much more important than they are. They react accordingly, staff tries to step in to explain why the position is unreasonable, and hard feelings and accusations of being repressed by the staff ensue.

Examples that I've seen over the course of the years, none drawn from current play

Nobles assuming they speak for an entire house - when in actuality they're a Junior member with no input into the Senate vote
Nobles assuming they can enslave commoners willynilly
Merchants assuming that they can threaten another house with a boycott - when in actuality, there's a number of elder merchants who understand the intricacies of trade a bit better - and are unwilling to forego a substantial profit for the sake of a minor member's injured pride
Templars threatening to raise taxes - or exile an entire house from the city

It seems (to me, at least) that sometimes players get confused because they're the only person dealing with other players - and forget the vastness of the social structure in which they play.

How to remedy this, though? One person suggested having staff members play more NPCs, but that's not a tenable suggestion - if we took on enough staff to ensure that a clan be represented 24/7, we'd have no one left playing. Scripted atmospheres, similarly, take up a lot of time and effort.

Traditionally, this has been addressed by documentation - descriptions which try to convey to the players the size of the clan, and its place in the world. Should we be focusing on making those documents more thorough - or is there some better solution?

[The7DeadlyVenomz]

While the documentation can certianly be improved (after all, what cannot be improved), I think that many of the players that act this way may be suffering from an ego problem. Not an OOC one, mind you, but rather an IC one.

Egos and indeed temper have historically been the downfall of many. Many a leader of a division or country has overstepped their power. Many a small business employee as acted as though he were in charge when he is not. I in fact also do this, IRL (Of course, I am in charge).

There is really no reason to change anything, from where I stand. If I am misreading this, please correct me. Bitchslap the PC IC, explain again to him, IC, where he is really in the world, maybe kill the fool for getting out of place, and go on. Quite seriously, there is no huge problem in my opinion.

Perhaps this time could be spent on changing the BS code instead, or adding scripts to the world and NPCs, or doing the skull idea.

[Fedaykin]

Personally, I do believe more thorough documents can combat that problem.  Some of the clan documents I've seen in the past have been rather vauge, particularly in the areas of numbers, which is something I think is rather important.

That Junior Merchant isn't going to make a problem or think he is as important if he realizes that he is one of a hundred or so of them.

That being said, there are times I do/would like to see players holding extremely powerful roles instead of everyone with tremendous power being an imm run NPC.  There are definetly instances of PC's achieving those ranks at times, but those times seem to be very few and far between.  Not to get off on a sidetrack here, but typically there seems to be a PC glass ceiling in powerful organizations simply for the purpose of keeping at least a few imm run characters above a player run character so they can't have complete freedom.

Maybe I'm wrong, but thats the way I have percieved things over the years.  If you even look in certain organizations, there seem to be NPC or VNPC characters who always hold the top position and don't seem to age.

To use Kadius as an example, as its in the clan information section of the webpage, it states: "Currently the head agent in Allanak is Tabitha Kadius."  Now, anyone who has been around a good number of years will probably have noticed that Tabitha Kadius has been the head agent for a long, long time.  Although out of Kadius is also the only example I remember of a minorly important character who was clearly old (Welen) being retired.  Perhaps every now and then such old characters need to be retired or die off, and player characters could have the chance to fill those roles, or at least new NPC/VNPC characters could replace them.  Again, thats totally a side issue to the one orginally presented though.

To sum up, I believe that enhanced documentation can solve some of the problems of people believing they are more important than they are, and on a side note, I would like to see there be more opportunities for player run characters to get the chance to become that important, given enough of a life span.

[Lazloth]

Additionally, I would think it important for clan imms to physically inhabit PCs' superiors on a regular basis (at least in the beginning of the House/clan tenure) to establish some level of propriety.  This has been the case for my clanned PCs -- the point being that the boss-employee relationship PC 'heads' cultivate with other PCs should extend upwards:  perhaps infrequent slip-ups with depositing house funds that necessitate interaction, special tasks for the month, yada yada.

[Lirs]

This is where I think the role of the clan imm is of great importance.

While I don't think it is necessary to inhabit clan superiors on a week to week basis I do believe that some interaction is necessary so the player doesn't feel they are acting in isolation.  In my own experience a brief meeting or a way message can do wonders to help enforce the pcs perception of their place in the house.  

Guidance from the clan imm and the documents is vital.  I think that perhaps some of the clan documents might need a little fleshing out.  It's hard to visualise your place in the scheme of things unless you know the hierarchy of your organisation, names of senior npcs and the duties of various house members.

-Lirael-

[Moe]

I think the answer is really documentation, better detailing what posistions a person in a house/organization/clan's actual Duties, Rights, and Powers are.  I think a lot of the problem is that most of it is vague and then the player doesn't know how thier pc should react to some situations.

I dont' think imms need to 'play' the higher up NPC's so much, as to occasionally switch into them and give the players a little more direction as to where they are confused, which they do do.

Another reason why most of the clan 'higher ups' are NPC's is because PC's die, and thus don't move up in the position in a house to the 'high up' positions that can take a lifetime of a char... I'm purely speculating here, but I would guess the average life of the playerbase is somewhere around 10-15 days playing time which equates to roughly 200 or 300 zalanthan days.. not even a year in Zalanthas. If you think about it thats really not that much at all. (I do understand that 10-15 days playing time equals a lot less then the actual time passed while the char played, but I think my point is still valid)

Another solution, could be to let players start in a higher position in a house, with a very clearly laid out role, detailing what thier duties/power/rights are.. could greatly benefit this.

-Moe the Schmoe
:evil:  :twisted:

[Master Z]

I think a document on how to play privileged roles in general might be nifty, even if a brief list of dos and don'ts. I think there was some talk of doing this in the past, and I still think it's a great idea. If something like this has already been completed, please correct me (and give me the link, heh). Also, a document that gives guesswork on the general size of organizations would be neat, again, if it doesn't exist already. Such a document might also give estimates for the population of each level of the organizations heirarchy.

As for people in "unprivileged" roles (if you will), well, learning your place is a part of learning what Arm is all about, and I think the current documentation and the whole learning the game process handles the situation as well as it can.

[Impska]

Some sort of doc relating to how to play a merchant/family member of a major merchant house might be useful - but since they all have their differences, it might be easier to just draw them up seperately for each house. I think most merchant houses have some sort of guidelines relating to this, however.

If you want to reinforce an awareness of rank, I've found it useful to have hierarchies mapped out for people. That way, you know exactly who's above you and can give them names.

Besides that, I would say that insightful feedback about the play of such characters is the best way to go. Although this could lead to cookie-cutter type merchants. Snobby/abrasive merchants and nobles make things interesting, and I'd hate to see all of the uniqueness of each character driven out in favor of "the ideal".

As mentioned by previous posters - a "Dos and Don'ts" list would be useless, as well as one detailing exactly what one's rights, priviledges and power consist of.

In the manner of contact with higher ups in the house, it would sometimes be nice for players to be given an awareness of what their house is up to, once in awhile. Sure, most nobles don't impact how the Senate votes, but they would know how their house voted on the latest resolution, know what their house stands for, no if their house is trying to push any new resolutions, etc. House gossip - who got promoted/demoted/were married/born/or died that year. That sort of thing would give a better impression of an organization that's "bigger than you". I know that's just more work for clan imms, but it's just an idea.

[Hoodwink]

I can't say this is a suggestion necessarily, but I've always felt it noteworthy that players are able to play in upper noble houses but not lesser.  Would a Borsail -- perhaps the highest standing form of nobility in the known world -- truly even want to sit in the same chair a commoner may have at the Trader's Inn?  Would someone that high really mingle with commoners on a regular basis?  I can perceive lesser nobles mingling a lot more freely with commoners than I can high nobility.  I've had the privelage of noticing that some noble estates aren't even coded, such as House Jal; these estates have a gateway that leads to nowhere.  I'm not sure I would exactly suggest we open lesser nobles to players and close all upper nobles, keeping them for NPCs, but it sure seems to make a lot more sense to me if this were the case.  Especially when you consider things like: players thinking they possess more power than they really do.

Just a thought.

[EvilRoeSlade]

Quite simply, I think that any Noble or Templar PC should have a detailed talk with their clan immortal in order to help define that character in the place of things.  My best guess, and I'm obviously not in the know on any particular situation, is that the failure of a noble or templar to play their part correctly can be directly related to the failure of whatever staff member who is responsible for the player to explain his or her role.  

I've never asked to play a Noble or Templar as of yet, and the reason is because it would be playing a character with a completely different viewpoint on the world (compared to a half-giant), who has completely different responsibilities (than a half-giant) and totally different goals and motivations (as opposed to a half-giant).  If I didn't have a staff member to figuratively hold my hand, at least at first, then I'd almost certainly fail just because I need some help getting my bearings and figuring out what I'm expected to do.  What kind of favors should I expect from a templar?  What should I do if the templar snubs me?  Suppose I had an idea for the advancement of my House?  Who should I take it to?  How would I gain support for the idea?  As a non spice-smoking templar, why the hell do I need to maintain relations with House Kurac?

[John]

This is a problem that plagues a lot of areas of Armageddon. And the players have been working pretty hard to stop it (such as having people stop bowing to Templars whenever they see them) and a lot more can be done.

As for the clan problem, I can only think of one other thing that hasn't been said. Instead of inhabiting senior NPCs on a regular basis (which would be a lot of work) play out the V/NPCs virtually. What I mean is..

• the Senate meets on a regular basis if IIRC so have a board that only nobles can access and put up what the Senate decided (if it's something other nobles would know about).
  
• If a clan's structure changes then have a senior Noble say why it happened on the message board.
  
• Have a Senior Noble want something done (such as wanting wine's from House Oash) and have him palm the job off onto a Junior Noble.
  
• Make the Senior Noble become threatened of a Junior Noble that's becoming quite powerful and react accordingly (perhaps by fabricating a difficult situation hoping for the PC Noble to handle it badly so the Senior Noble can demote the PC Noble and raise another PC Noble in his place who'll hopefully not be as ambitious). Although this one takes more time.
  
• Have Virtual Junior Nobles do something foolhardy and then have servants talk about how they heard the Senior Noble berating him, and now he's been demoted to being in charge of village X.

Just some ideas for making Virtual Nobles seem more active for a minimum amount of effort.

[Angela Christine]

I'd also like to see suggestions for things to do when you are bored.  You have a set of official duties, but chances are that they don't occupy all your time.  With a new character you can kill a lot of time finding the clothes you want, but after that . . . in can be hard to think of non-virtual goals.  Sure, you are supposed to work on raising the esteem of your house, and your position within the house, but what does that mean?

I think noble PCs sometimes turn to harrassing commoners or hanging out with commoners because they have nothing better to do.  For the majority of nobles and templars going hunting is unacceptable, as are most forms of crafting.  Unless you are in charge of a troop of actual PCs, the only thing to do is sit around in a tavern waiting, or sit around the estate wating.

Merchants have it a little better, they usually have a staff or are trying to hire one, a merchant can interact with people of any rank, and they often have some coded crafting skills.  If things get dull, they can always pack up the wagon and head to another city.  But they still seem to spend a great deal of time sitting in taverns waiting for customers and underlings.  

Just a thought.

AC

[The Lonely Hunter]

I didnt read every reply so forgive me if this has been said already.

Perhaps extra docs to go along with the clan docs that actually outline the basics of their actual 'power' and what is not appropriate along with some examples? Given each and every situation can't be listed but if you can offer some I'm sure they can base their choices off of those.

[Anonymous]

Basically, players overlook the virtual world when estimating their place in it, and tend to assume themselves much more important than they are. They react accordingly, staff tries to step in to explain why the position is unreasonable, and hard feelings and accusations of being repressed by the staff ensue.

Maybe if a player can't take a criticism or a suggestion from the staff and act upon it, then you are allowing the wrong people to play merchants, nobles, and templars.  Idunno.

[Bestatte]

Couple of tips for playing in a Merchant House:

1) Just because you're the only active PC merchant in that house, doesn't mean you're the only Merchant in that house. The houses are families, designated by their last names. ALL Houses are families. You are not the only member of that family. You have cousins and parents (dead or alive) and possibly siblings and aunts and uncles and neices and nephews. Each house is represented in the Senate - by its own Senator. That means there is ALSO a senator in your house, somewhere. There are also your Seniors/Elders, who you answer to when you fuck up.

2) Just because you are a crafter in a Merchant house doesn't mean you have the authority to speak on your boss's behalf - unless he tells you specifically that you may. Regardless of your relationship with the Family member, you are still nothing more than a crafter commoner. If you pretend to be anything more than that, expect a chat with the Senior member of that house.

3) Remember at all times that you are a Junior Merchant, or Merchant, and that a Senior Aide of a Noble house is technically higher ranking than you. This doesn't mean you have to fawn over the Senior Aide, but it does mean you would probably not want to piss him/her off without risking the ire of HIS boss - the Noble. This is a very difficult concept to accept, because without the Merchant houses, the Nobles would have no means to equip their guards, or acquire fancy clothes, or get decent-quality spice, or keep their 'sids secure in a bank.

Nobles and Templars rely on the Merchant houses for their livelihoods. But it's a very careful reliability. Merchants rely on customers to pay for their goods and services. Most people who have enough 'sids to keep Merchants eating well and living in gorgeous estates are either nobles and templars, or aides of nobles and templars, or secondary employees of nobles and templars. So you need to play nice, at least out in the open. Any plotting and scheming should probably be done behind the scenes and out of sight of the general public.

Merchants should put on a pretense of getting along in front of others. And probably in front of each other as well. There is nothing more unsettling than the merchant houses at odds with each other. Makes the rest of the citizens wonder if their new baobob desk is gonna actually be dlivered, or if the apartment the desk goes to won't suddenly be unavailable for delivery to the merchant who makes the desk.

Again, plot and scheme to your heart's content, but it probably isn't a good idea for anyone outside your own family to know about it.

[Anonymous]

Wasn't there a doc listing social standings?  I would think something like this could be further expanded to list the relative power of each step on the social ladder.

So not only would a noble family member know they are on an even footing, more or less, with a Blue robe, but they would also know what that entails and just roughly how much of their weight they can throw around without looking stupid.

[marko]

For players to know their place in the overall world (the big picture if you will) they need to be aware of it from the inception of the character and reminded of it as they play their character.

Clan PC leaders - they need to have access to communication with their elders and not be left stranded for any length of time.  Whether this communication is done ICly (by imms animating the higher ranked NPCs) or via email or messages on the board sdoes not matter - the communication must occur so the player is aware of their place.  Otherwise players will make the assumption that they speak for the House because, for all intents and purposes, to the other players they do.  

So long as the clan leaders are aware of the situation it will be passed along to the entire clan and then the entire population base.  

More documention is always good but PCs need the reinforcing that only communication can give them.  Communication is key - if only to remind players that they are still on the lowest rung of the noble heirarchy or that they are 'merely' a junior merchant (and to do so _before_ any event occurs where the player has possibly erred in the view of the immortals).  

Each clan could have a document listing the 'standard' responsibilities of each rank.  The problem with this is that many PCs tend to sit in multiple roles of the lowest rank - which by action makes them of greater importance than the standard.

Now, I am currently blessed by being in a clan that has an amazing immortal directly involved with it and another who sits 'higher up' so to speak.  I've also heard many good things about some other House imms from the  few people I speak with OOCly,  so I'm not certain how pertinant this is; but they are my thoughts all the same.

[zanthalandreams]

Basically, players overlook the virtual world when estimating their place in it, and tend to assume themselves much more important than they are. They react accordingly, staff tries to step in to explain why the position is unreasonable, and hard feelings and accusations of being repressed by the staff ensue.

I quoted it because after reading so many replies, I had to go back and look again at the original question.  

"assume themselves much more important than they are."  I like that line because I have not only been guilty of that, but I've been annoyed when other people in my clan have been guilty of it.  Here are a few causes that I feel add to the problem:

1)  One of the causes of is the practice of purely OOC motivated promotions.   For instance, the warrior who has been in a House for less than two IC years is all of a sudden the new Commander General of the House Lee Golden Dragons Elite Commando Squad.   I make the accusation of these promotions being purely OOC motivated because, while understandable, they are.  The OOC motivation is that the clan imm doesn't have the time or energy to inhabit every level of authority for every PC in a clan (who might have up to four different command structures, depending).   Get a PC who looks like they'll stay, give them the Gold and Steel Epaulettes and send them off to recruit and lead.   In theory I can agree with this.   In practice it tends to inflate the player's concept of self-importance in the grand scheme of things.   It isn't all that common, but it is common enough that I've seen plenty of Commanders du' Jour.

2)  At the risk of contradicting my first point, I think another cause would be a complete lack of reasonable promotions.   Either due to immortal and untouchable NPCS inhabiting certain levels of command or due to PCs who are, in effect, "camping out" in their ranks by never logging in, never doing much.  Having been in that position, feelings of repression are natural and so a player is much more inclined to act drastically.

3)  Lack of communication from Clan Imm is another cause.  Praise Whira that my clan has an amazing, active, and authoritative Imm.  But I've been through 3 clan Imms and the periods between when there was none and when your PC in a leadership role has no road-map of acceptable goals from the Higher Ups. . . then the feeling of "Do something, even if it might be wrong" is pretty strong.   When your only contact or communication from your Clan Imm is to point out how you screwed up something, it can cause resentment.   Not that this is always the case. . . but miscommunication often breeds confusion.

4)  Unclear or conflicting documentation.   I'll add to this mis-interpretation of clan documentation.  I have had cases where my interpretation of a certain passage was just different enough from a clan leader's interpretation to cause problems which then got the clan imm involved who, at the time, had a different interpretation than either of us.  



--------------
Now, the ideas on how to remedy or prevent this?   I don't think I can add anything to the ideas I've read so far.   I like them and though of some of them myself.  One of the things that has worked very well in the clan I am currently in is that our clan Imm (who is, I mean. . sorry guys, but we got the best) will inhabit the NPCs directly superior to the current PC leader and take reports, give instructions, outline goals.   This keeps the PC leader in line, makes that PC remember that while they may be A top dog, they aren't THE top dog, and it clearly communicates expectations / disappointments / and praise in a much less intimidating way than getting an angry email from a staff member.

Phew.. okay, I've said enough.

[Twilight]

Lets say a player comes along and joins something like the Tor guards.  Their sources of information would be room descriptions, NPCs, other PCs and Imms (this includes documentation).  Somewhere, in those four categories, they need to find all the information to figure out their position.  A lot of their relative position has to due with how many  VNPCs are out there...but those VNPCs aren't doing anything for the player unless one of the four above things, that the player has access to, mentions them, and the player takes note of it.

Room descriptions are great.  In Clan X's compound, they can mention how many people are milling about.  They could give information on the varying ranks one would expect to find in various places.  The first I will admit I've seen a bit of, the second I can't remember off the top of my head a place like that.

If you give your NPCs the same distribution of relative importance as VNPCs, its a -big- help.  Suddenly a player has a reference.  If a player wanders around their clan's compound, and just because they are a captain or whatever, and all the NPCs are lower rank, and all the VNPCs mentioned in the room descriptions are lower rank...it is no wonder they think themselves high in rank.

PCs in the clan, especially in authority positions, have to pass on the right information, and put people in their place once in awhile.  And, important here, you have to pass on -history- people.  Its a big, big plus in being able to place your importance, but I've been in several situations where my superior couldn't even pass on the history of their clan.  The more you operate in a void in terms of previous PC interactions and actions, the more you are going to misjudge.  Also, PCs in roles of responsibility need to take it seriously.  I had a character, long, long ago, who was given guild leader codewise by another player and told he was now the dokhar, after being in the clan about a week and a half real life.  Nothing else, no docs, no in-game support for my role.  A bit of a drastic example, but it happened and I basically fell down flat on my face trying to be a clan leader.

Documentation has always been a help, when I have seen it.  Problem is, whatever the documentation says, players tend to judge the overall social structure based on the PC social structure.  I don't know how to get around this, really, beyond what others have already suggested.

[LoD]

I think there are three key factors toward keeping these things in check.  These are in addition to being careful about whom you recruit to handle the diplomatic job of being a House Merchant or Agent.

Documentation

I believe that you need to have sufficient documentation and communication with your clan to be successful.  Each Clan should have at least one active Imm that watches over the most basic operations and is available for questions and clarification when needed.  The documentation should also give the agent a clear goal on what they are expected to do, what they will be paid and how they will be paid.

Even a welcome letter may be of use, something along the lines of:

It is Waleuk, the 17th day of the Descending Sun,
In the Year of Ruk's Agitation, year 70 of the 20th Age.

Welcome to House Ju.

Your training with the House has just begun and many fellow merchants and men mingle about the estate with varied expressions of excitement, awe and interest.  Your are joining a long line of successful and wealthy merchants whom handle business for one of the Great Merchant Houses of the Known World.

House Ju deals primarily in leather, and while there are several other aspects of its sales that will involve your attention, the primary focus of your business ventures should be the buying and selling of leather to clients.  Life as a merchant is both demanding and rewarding.  There are a great many things you will have to learn to distinguish yourself from the many other agents in service today.

There are approximately 50 Junior Agents in each of the city-states.  Each Agent branches to make contacts with other merchants and commoners in the effort to move the products of House Ju.  There are even times when Junior Agents may have the chance to deal with and negotiate with representatives of Noble Houses and the templarate when called upon, while these are usually the province of the Senior Agents.

As a Junior Agent, there are a few things you should know:

-You report to a Senior Agent, who is in charge of a large amount of agents all coordinating sales and contracts.
-You have the right to negotiate for the sales of House products as well as recruit a small amount of hunters, guards and craftsmen to further your business.
-You are responsible for your actions and the actions of your men.  If you anger the local government or disrupt friendly relationships with long-standing clients, your position will be terminated immediately.
-If there is a problem with an employee, templar or House - please inform the Senior Agent immediately.  All matters of major diplomacy will be decided by the Family and your role relayed to you at a later date.
-You will have access to a portion of House Ju's bank account.  If you go above this portion, you will be terminated.  These funds will be replaced every year to satisfy your needs to hire the appropriate men and women to serve.

Goals

As a player, I think goals are very important to the success of a clan and its members.  Setting forth a list of expectations and reasonable goals will help players have a better grasp of what they're expected to do.  When coupled with the potential for advancement or special 'bonuses' - this can be an extremely effective motivational tool.  It also reinforces the existance of a 'superior power' within the House that is monitoring their work.

Such goals may be:

-Bring in 5000 'sid profit in one year.
-Bring in 5000 'sid profit in one month.
-Maintain a House Guard of 5 men for 2 years.
-Develop a new product for next year.
-Find a local supplier for red sandstone.

When the player completes the goal - give them the reward.  Perhaps it is a small token that would show that they meet goals on time.  Perhaps it would be a nifty outfit.  Maybe enough of them would be the use of a wagon.  Or perhaps you could have set goals for each Agent so they could work toward their goals to be able to get things they want.

Goals 1-5 = Use of 1 NPC guard
Goals 5-10 = Use of the House Wagon
Goals 11-15 = Extra 20% on Annual Spending Allowance for Guards

Something along that line.

Interaction

I think there still needs to be -some- interaction between the Agents and the higher-ups that the need to report to.  In the T'zai-Byn there was an annual graduation of the base recruits where the Commander would show up and give a small speech.  This was really good because it gave all of the people in the clan a chance to see who was in charge and was sort of a special moment.  I would suggest more hands-on sort of moments like this, even if they are just once a month.  Get all the people in the clan together that you can, show up with a higher-up, talk about how business has been going, commend a few people, maybe give out some promotions and go about your way.

Even if they are not played often at all, I still think it is very important to have an NPC or two that are authority figures in each estate.  This will at least let PC's interact, report ICly and refer to someone above them when they have a question or something.

My thoughts.

-LoD

[aeshyw]

I should preface this with saying I've been guilty more then once of making this very error, and of having it made by others about my character.  So, I suppose any opinion I have could either be taken as having arisen from experience, or dismissed as coming from someone who stumbles into the very trap being discussed.

In any case, my responses would be:

Documentation: What LoD said.  I really don't have much to add to that, except that  I would like to see a little more history revolving around PCs in the Clan Docs.  Perhaps longer-lived characters could be allowed to add a short 'oral' history of things that might get passed down among family and servants to the website upon their death. (assuming of course, nothing involving current events is given away)

Goals:I don't think this can be stressed -enough-.  While some Commoner PCs, particuarly in military organizations, may get promoted to soon, the opportunity for nobles to progress is almost non-existant.  I would love to see more levels of authority within the noble houses, more jockeying for position and more accountability for actions not just to one's self, but to the house in general. I can't really go further into explanation about that without revealing IC info, but I have seen many nobles do things that would almost seem to hurt their families, just for some whim or other.  If they were held to task for it, things might be more interesting.  Mostly, I just see such actions ignored entirely.  I would also like to see actions taken by nobles within the house that -do- help rewarded generously.  I've not seen much occur when they've accomplished their tasks yet.

NPCs and IC Interaction:I know that IMMs are busy people.  I know they have real lives.  But I sure wish that more of this type of interaction could occur. It brings a clan and the game world utterly to life when the senior level NPCs start to supervise things a little more closely. Matter of fact, if I can toss in a quick plug - even though I'm not currently in his clan, Cerebus did this amazingly well.  He really has a knack for drawing you into the entire 'feel' of a setting with his emoting and rp'd NPCs.  NPCs aren't just to pass down the rules, IMHO; they make the clan seem much bigger then its PC population.

I'd love to see multiple IMMs assigned to various bigger clans.  Perhaps one senior level IMM who would be in charge of consistancy and policy, and another who might either be a junior staff member or run another clan as the senior and who would have a couple clan NPCs and would help tend to minor requests when the senior is busy.  I've seen a lot of good players do stupid things just because they lack the direction and discipline that an occasional kick in the rear from an NPC can give.

[God]

I think another major issue is that the only people who can manipulate the world are PCs. Although time passes by rapidly, you never hear anything about what the rest of the world is doing. Apparently they are static, there are no upheavals, no major events. Maybe I'm wrong, but if PCs  hadn't pushed for Tuluk's liberation, it wouldn't have happened. With time passing this rapdily, there should be tons of stuff happening.

Give some OOC notes(Maybe on the GDB?) telling some regular events that are happening for each region. If you live in the 'rinth, news about new gangs, money, badasses. For a noble, news about what's happening in the Senate. Ect, ect.

Also, consider having an IC census or two. One in Allanak and one in Tuluk, detailing population, % of different races, number of people in certain professions. On one MUSH I played they had polls about common issues, but that probably wouldn't work on here.

Gotta run.

[SailorMars]

A few months ago, as an Arm n00b, I found the documentation very deep and useful. It was enough for me to work with starting out... however, as I got playing, many questions came up that required OOC conversations to understand (simply because I couldn't find an IC info source).

Another option I'm hearing is more imms playing PCs. Viable, but I'm guessing most imms code, and to add heavy play time on top might be difficult.

I'd suggest scoring some internet chat software and setting up themed OOC chats that happen maybe twice a month, or whatever the administration can handle. Ideally, these would fall on Saturday during maintenance, so people could still get their crack fix while the MUD was down.

Perhaps set up a mailing list where players can suggest subjects that they could benefit from learning more about. Pick whichever subject gets the most votes first, the next one second, etc. Hold the chat for an hour or whatever is reasonable for the host(s). This way players could either be instructed, or do Q & A real time with Those In The Know. Keep everything on an OOC level.

This could work wonders to fill in the blanks on "presumed knowledge" your character should have, but you as a person might not. Perhaps log the chat, and extract some of the better points as addendum to the online documentation... or start a new website section of chat logs.

Just a thought...

Edit: Typo fixes.

[Swordsman]

Sanvean: "Basically, players overlook the virtual world when estimating their place in it, and tend to assume themselves much more important than they are. They react accordingly, staff tries to step in to explain why the position is unreasonable, and hard feelings and accusations of being repressed by the staff ensue."

IMO, I think the main problem is with people new to a role not being inducted into it thoroughly ... so one good solution might be to revise this (for each role/clan as appropriate). Although the examples given were mostly of merchants and templars, which are special roles, I think the same goes for a lot of general roles, too. I can think of many situations where new military recruits were grossly disrespectful or disobedient to veteran leaders (even ones not played by me, heh) where basically the situation became so unrealistic that it was ludicrous.

Here's the problem: inducting someone takes a lot of effort, no matter which way you look at it. If you do it mainly through docs, you've got to put a lot of work into the docs and often I suspect the people writing the docs are people who 'know too much' (like 'the programmer is the worst person to write the manual because he/she knows it all already' or 'never proofread your own essays, always get someone else to help do it'). And it gets even tougher if you try and do it by ICly playing it out, particularly if it's left to the same leaders time after time. Worse is when some leaders do it and some don't, and you end up with a pretty obvious (IMO) disparity between recruits who were inducted thoroughly and those who weren't. (The former tend to act more realistically and the latter pretty casually.)

I've never played a special merchant/noble/templar role myself, but I'd be willing to guess (and this is no criticism of anyone, since I am just guessing) that there could be an attitude of 'well, he/she's an experienced player, I'm sure he/she'll work him/herself out just fine' by the imms. After all, why not? If you've just picked someone to play a really trusted role, chances are they have some RL intelligence to them. But intelligence can't always make up for the lack of a good, thorough induction. As I said, this is all just a guess on my part and I could be completely wrong. I usually stay with fighter types myself, where the basic principle's 'obey or die' ... nice and simple.

As a veteran recruiter, I always try to make sure that someone new into a group I lead or help with gets a serious talking-through about the situation. They are new. They are at the bottom. It doesn't mean that they have to take rubbish from everyone else, but it does mean they don't dare give out any themselves. It means they toe the line. They are here to work/serve/whatever, not to be served. Etc. To balance all this out, I think it's good to point out what they're getting, too. I've seen some recruiters basically say 'oh yeah, and by the way you get free food and water and a bed while you're with us.' That's a poor way to go about it IMO. Use that opportunity to stress just how valuable free food, water, and lodgings are. If you the recruiter treat the benefits as being nothing special, the recruit will pick up on this attitude and so you can't expect him/her to play out a grateful new recruit very well. Yes, not all leaders are the same, not all recruits are the same, personalities differ ... I'm just talking generally.

Inducting someone new is probably something a lot of leaders see as boring. I know, I've been there. When you go through several PC recruits each month, month after month, it does get tiresome. I don't know if there's any good solution for this, other than the obvious 'train up more leaders' and such. But one thing you might try and do, as a leader, is try to spice up the induction process. Instead of always lecturing in the same room, try changing location, style (ask the recruit questions, which will make him/her think about the answers), and maybe order of points that you go through. That way you keep it vaguely fresh for you, and when you approach it fresher, chances are it'll be more interesting for the person you're inducting. If you've got more than a couple of leaders doing inducting, try to standardise a lot, so that you don't get wild variations between leader A who took a recruit through the works and leader B who just points the recruits to the barracks and that's it. Not a criticism of anyone particularly, just some hopefully constructive criticism.

To what zalanthandreams said about people being promoted more for OOC reasons, I agree with the sentiment. When someone who's obviously ICly inappropriate (too ICly inexperienced, too ICly immature, wrong IC personality, etc.) gets promoted, it just basically brings the OOC morale of everyone else in the clan down IMO. Better not to have someone officially in leadership, and temporarily delegate authority to someone else, rather than officially promote someone and end up with a clown in charge. If this happens, it basically gives the message that 'the imms don't care' (whether rightly or wrongly). And if the imms don't care, why should you?

Basically, the main aim of getting inducted into a clan (in this game) should IMO be to thoroughly get the player out of an OOC mindset and into an IC mindset. And this takes work. Lots of it.

All IMO.

Swordsman

[Callisto]

I've always thought that more frequent player-staff meetings would go a long way in solving problems like this.

Maybe one per month, each one having its own theme. One month it could be a discussion about ways to improve the combat code, another could be a discussion about leadership roles, etc.

Its fine to discuss things on a message board, but I find people are more creative and receptive when its more of a group discussion, rather then a post-by-post reply system.

Just a thought.

[Angela Christine]

Inducting someone new is probably something a lot of leaders see as boring. I know, I've been there. When you go through several PC recruits each month, month after month, it does get tiresome.

Yeah, I've had recruiters spend up to an hour going through the rules and procedures, and other recruiters that spent 5 minutes and then passed the newbie off on another recruit for the rest of the filling in.  While I understand that people who are in recruiter positions are busy and inducting is dull, it seemed really odd to me to have another raw recruit finish the induction.  A recruit can show you wear to sleep, to eat, and so one, but probably won't impart the same mood and emphasis as a senior member of the group.  I think only people that have been with the organization for a few months and have had some actual training on how to deal with inductees should do it, other recruits are more likely to pass on bad habits.  For organizations that have an oath taken, it would be nice if the oath were actually played out rather than just "These are the rules, do you understand?  Good.  OOC: here is the password for the web docs."  Then you are left to look up the docs and imagine that your character took the oath all members supposedly take.  On the other hand, typing through all that crap takes a long time.

I'm going to propose a radical solution I used as a on another MUD where new inductees were required to take a tour of the facilities and learn the rules.  Fasten your seatbelts.

I wrote out a script of all the rules and proceedures I had to cover.  Then I divided it up into sections, so that each section of the script would be covered in a different room of the HQ, and most of the time the stuff covered in the script would relate to activities in that room.

For example, if I were doing the Byn I might plan what I would cover in the latrine room.  I would emphasize how important it is to do chores, point out the (virtual) shovels, sand and straw, and give a brief description of what you are supposed to do on latrine cleaning day, and perhaps throw in some colourful referances to the eye-watering stench.  In the mess I would cover how to get food, the importance of treating the non-military support staff with respect, oocly point out the message board with the schedual, the rule about meeting in the mess at every horn for anouncements, the rule about not staying in the mess all night, and so on.  For every room in the compound I would have a little spiel about the room and the rules and procedures that relate to that room, that way by the time I've covered all the rooms I've also covered all the rules.

But I still found that typing out essentially the same messages over and over every time I gave a tour was time consuming.  The poor newbie was left standing there scratching his ass while I typed out what amounted to a page or two of text as I lead him around the compound, and I'm not a fast typist.  So then I became even more radical, and pre-typed the essential text for each room as a series of small text files  I would go into the room, and then use the "paste file" function of my client to spew out the "essential" text for that room, (using a macro set would do the same thing) and then manually emote, tack on a topical joke du jour, and make sure they understood what I had covered.  Then move onto the next room.  My itinerary looked something like this:

First, get them to follow and take them to the enterance

Room 1, the Enterance
 a.  Welcome recruit, emphasise how lucky they are to have been accepted into this fine organization.
 b.  Paste room01.txt
 c.  Ask for questions.
 d.  Go to next room, the parlor

Room 2, the Parlor
 a.  Smile encouragingly
 b.  paste room02.txt
 c. ask for questions
 d.  go to next room, the kitchen

Room 3, the Kitchen
 a.  Tell 'em they are doing great, or tell them to pay attention.
 b.  paste room03.txt
 c.  ask for questions
 d. etc.

On the one hand, it is poor RP because every recruit gets a couple identical sentances in every room, and even professional tour guides don't always spout off identical spiels every time.  It is starting down the slippery slide to just having bots do the induction.  On the other hand, it lets me cover a large volume of information in under half an hour, and I tried to tone down the identicalness of each tour by bracketing the pasted text with personalized adlibed stuff.  I also consoled myself with the thought that if it were a real organization, they would probably only have a recruiting day once a month, and then cover a bunch of recruits all at once.  Normally recruits show up at bootcamp by the bus full, not one or two every few days.  But since it is a MUD things aren't that sychronized and you have to take your recruits when you get them.

It seemed to work out alright, but that MUD wasn't quite as strict as this one.

AC

[John]

I would like to see a little more history revolving around PCs in the Clan Docs.  Perhaps longer-lived characters could be allowed to add a short 'oral' history of things that might get passed down among family and servants to the website upon their death. (assuming of course, nothing involving current events is given away)

I agree. From the limited docs I've seen there the Imms are actually more then happy to have player history, but it was completely empty. Perhaps some examples of what is likely to be put in the History should be put there.

Also, logs for nobles quite often contain IC info (IMO a log set in the Tor Estate would give away IC info cause not many people go there) perhaps each clan doc could have examples of RP logs that people in the clan could access so they get examples of the type of roleplaying that should occur.

Finally IMO the docs could be made more accessible to people. Perhaps recruiters should be given the username and password so they can then give it out to the new recruits I've been in 4 clans and have only seen the docs for 2 clans.

[Midland]

First off, LoD, I love the letter idea!!!!    

Sometimes you end up in a clan when you didnt expect to end up in that clan. So the advice to get all your ducks in a row in understanding your pc by reading the clan docs before starting your pc doesnt always apply.

Then you are hired into a clan. Yes, you are given clan docs but you just lived 16-30 yrs of your life, or more, being your own person, etc. Is your pc the type of person that things go in one ear and out the other? Would your pc remember ALL there is to do about a clan just because there are OOC docs?  Or would only bits and pieces stick in your pc's mind about what the House does, etc? I know I dont have a computer for a brain in RL and I am still learning things about my job. That was part of the requirement for this job. The ability to accept change and a constant learning process. Would your pc take into account what they saw IC and were told IC by others that were with that clan for longer than you? These things might conflict with the documents. Which would be correct for your pc? Going by what they are told by those long affiliated with the House or dropping to ooc and saying  OOC Ut uh! The docs say.....   Maybe the docs are outdated or someone started a new tradition?

My suggestion was the one where there needed to be more interaction by the imms and maybe programs to show virtual House hunters bringing things in, or crafters making things. Why? Because if you arent reminded of the little things you can take it for granted. Or when someone says that a new unit of such and such is being formed, you might think that hmmmm maybe they werent here before.

I dont think 24/7 is realistic but maybe a RL bi-weekly. Even if it isnt with the imm lead clan leader but the player pc they have overtop of the other pcs/npcs/vpcs sitting down and going over things with their underlings. When a player is basically dumped in a situation and left to do whatever they want, within reason, basically handling things that probably arent their real duties to do, they are going to forget that there are vpcs doing the same thing. Not out of a power hungry, it's all mine attitude but because it was convient to allow that pc to do all that because the jobs needed to get done. Then when that pc steps out of line of what is wanted, then they get to see their superior and reminded of their real place in the scheme of things.  WHICH is fine and IC but then it has to be accepted that the pc will react to how things appear to them.

To avoid that, I really think they need more interaction from their superiors. I do believe that the higher ups (imm run npcs) do need to appear on a regular basis. Even if it's just to walk in, look around, frown at something that's out of place, speak to a vpc that would be in charge, walk out. Sometimes the only time a player might seen a superior is when they are A) in trouble or B) getting promoted or C) the rare appearance to give a new task to accomplish.  I am NOT putting down imms, being snide or in any way trying to say the imms dont do their job. They are VERY busy people, they have a RL and they are humans too. Things can get misunderstood on both ends.

I know that I am horrible about sending in updates because of things being misunderstood on them and I loathe bothering imms. I know they are busy and I dont want to be a burden. But I think it's because I put TOO much into the updates and try to inform on my pc's thought process. I am going to try and work on that, improve keeping my clan imm informed. (I learned that even if it's something NOT about your clan, tell your clan imm because even if it isnt beneficial for the clan, they will try and help you

Because this is also a two way street. So not only does there need to be more interaction from the imms/lead pcs to keep things real, there needs to be reports/updates from the pcs to those imms/lead pcs to keep the communication lines open. I prefer that being done IC but that's just because I am a stubborn snit and I like the rp. Emailing can be alright but in that sometimes people feel the need to explain the whole situation behind what's going on in attempt to make the reasons things are happening, understood.  That puts a burden on the player because IC their pc wouldnt know it but here a higher up in their clan is saying 'this' is why 'that's' happening. Do they bend their IC actions and are they expected to bend their IC actions due to now knowing the OOC reasons behind something?  

I hope that this post wasnt too rambling and it was understandable. Sometimes I think I am making perfect sense to me and my best friend will let me know that I am just flat out confusing the crap out of him.  

[naatok]

I just want to say one thing about this:
You all will be much happier and have more fun in Zalanthas when you learn to worship ME!

*peers around at the sea of angry faces and slowly slinks back to his monkey cage*

On a more serious note:

Like Venomz, I don't see this as a 'real' problem.  The problem, I suppose, comes into being when the PLAYER believes there should be no IC reprocussions for the arrogant actions of his or her PC.

If anything at all should be done about this, perhaps it is in updating the documentation to particularly address this issue.
Players need to understand their characters' place in the grand scheme of things in Zalanthas.  Assuming that PCs are the top of their particular food chain is just unrealistic.  Assuming that staff is out to get you because smack gets laid down IC for inappropriate IC behavior is just another example of thoughtless reactionism.

Personally, I think IC circumstances where a PC gets too big for his or her pants adds to the flavor and realism of Zananthas.  It makes for REAL and BELIEVABLE characters.
Players getting bent out of shape over appropriate IC consequences is probably one of the most frustrating things for staff to have to deal with.

Just because your PC's title is Ma'am or Sir/Lady or Lord, do NOT assume s/he is the end-all, be-all of authority in the organization.

[Anonymous]

Personally, I think IC circumstances where a PC gets too big for his or her pants adds to the flavor and realism of Zananthas.  It makes for REAL and BELIEVABLE characters.

I completely agree.  PCs who have an inflated self-image rock and are really fun to play, especially when your social counterparts are taken aback by it.

But when someone senior to you in your organization comes to chew you out, just roll with it, or plot the death of the senior.   :twisted:

[crymerci]

[edited for brevity]
Basically, players overlook the virtual world when estimating their place in it, and tend to assume themselves much more important than they are. They react accordingly, staff tries to step in to explain why the position is unreasonable, and hard feelings and accusations of being repressed by the staff ensue.

How to remedy this, though? One person suggested having staff members play more NPCs, but that's not a tenable suggestion - if we took on enough staff to ensure that a clan be represented 24/7, we'd have no one left playing. Scripted atmospheres, similarly, take up a lot of time and effort.

Traditionally, this has been addressed by documentation - descriptions which try to convey to the players the size of the clan, and its place in the world. Should we be focusing on making those documents more thorough - or is there some better solution?

I think that documentation is definitely the way to go, along with an orientation of sorts when applying for such a character, or at some point before entering society. What should be included?
--A rough outline of the numbers of various ranks of nobles/templars/agents actively at work (virtually) in the organization.
--A clear outline of the hierarchy, and explanations of who reports to whom, including both PCs and NPCs.
--Regular meetings (or at least email exchanges, if meetings aren't possible) with the boss player/imm in question.
--A list of do's and don't's, regardless of how basic they may seem, definitely including examples of things you would have free rein on vs. things you would need to consult a higher-up on.
--A general idea of the House's relations with other Houses. Some people seem to think that just because they have a vendetta against Lady Fussypants Fale, that their House and House Fale are on bad terms.
--A goal, or list of possible goals, that their PC might take on as projects, if they wish to please their seniors and do well.
--Time and imm interest permitting, occasional reports on Senate decisions, VNPC marriages and alliances, and other matters which would affect inter-house relations would be nice. Ideally, however, it would be nice if players could shape the world's history as much as possible.

I am ambivalent about the idea of promotions within Houses. On one hand, it gives players incentive to accomplish things, and helps prevent stagnation. On the other hand, we already have people saying that they don't think some nobles and templars are deserving of their roles, and I think this would magnify that feeling. For example, you get someone who seems to be an effective leader and good roleplayer stuck at the bottom of the ladder, while someone who is generally seen as ineffective is given a promotion. Since the rest of us (both ICly and OOCly) don't know the reasons behind such decisions, there are always going to be questions about such decisions.

[Kalden]

I still think a world events announcement would really help for players to realize that they are not all there is to the world, and it doesn't seem to me like it would be that hard. I'd find it rather fun to write up events and help direct the path of a world, and develop an interesting metaplot(I'm defining a metaplot as large, worldwide plots involving lots of people).

The world events and npcs should and could be a tool of the imms to direct interesting things for players to react to. Players can have plenty of influence, but I think what Sanvean was saying is that they shouldn't really direct the world singlehandedly. A Gamemaster and more outside, wide encompassing plots can't really hurt, can it? A lot of these events don't even have to have real coded effects, they just add some thematic things to think about and perhaps gossip about.

I'll list out some examples of events that could be written up:

-Debate rages in the Senate of the issue of ____(cleaning up the 'rinth, spice trade, food concerns, one of the Houses ect).
-A plains fire rages across the Northlands.
-The tribe of ___ visits the city to trade and exchanges stories of ____.
-A large group of gith raiders attack the farm village on the outskirts of Allanak, raping, pillaging, and causing concern over food.
-An official in the Allanak City Guards begins to speak of dealing with cleaning the Labyrinth, causing concern that spreads fast among the low-lifes.

Pretty much anything an Imm wants to happen but is not happening from players could be done by events. It could just be whenever an imm feels like using the world to set up something.

Also, seeing the numbers from a census would just be really satisfying, even if they aren't completely accurate. It makes you feel like this stuff actually is there, and it matters, instead of just saying "lots". Every clan should know how many members it has too, if possible.

[Anonymous]

You know, Kalden, I really like that idea as long as players are clear that some of them may very well be virtual events for them to talk or argue about, but the necessary objects/NPCs may not and may never be added to represent a given tribe.

But it would be very cool.  Just like a weekly summary of gossip or official happenings thrown together in a quick tavern board post.

[Swordsman]

AC: the pre-typing idea is something that I think quite a few people do (though not always when inducting a new recruit). I don't see anything wrong with it myself as long as it's done OOCly fairly (e.g. the newbie has time to ask questions between all the pre-typed text). People can usually read faster than most people can type, so no problem IMO. And it does help to standardise things, even if it's just the recruits you induct personally. To me, loyalty is a very important kind of concept in this game setting, because it's a basically harsh and untrustworthy world (rare = precious). So, an oath of loyalty is definitely something that should be played out and carefully thought about by the clan imm/leaders IMO.

Getting too big for your/their boots (CRW and others, I think): I agree that this makes RP and the game world in general interesting. I have a problem, though, when this kind of thing happens due to OOC ignorance (or whatever) rather than someone playing it out because they mean to (ICly). Getting too big for your boots is indeed something that can be very cool to RP around (and needn't always end in death, hehe), but if it comes from OOC, it just comes across as silly IMO. Just my take.

Swordsman

[Tlaloc]

I still think a world events announcement would really help for players to realize that they are not all there is to the world, and it doesn't seem to me like it would be that hard. I'd find it rather fun to write up events and help direct the path of a world, and develop an interesting metaplot(I'm defining a metaplot as large, worldwide plots involving lots of people).

Actually, this happens. Only, it happens in game, and from the eyes of the locals by getting posted on rumor boards, talking NPC's, and various other means. The danger about an OOC blanket announcement of whats going on is that its OOC. Its a giveaway. It also lessens the impact, I think for the character, depending on his background and his location in the world.

If your character is in the boonies out in Red Storm, East, then how does he know about the Senates debates in Allanak? Would a Tuluki care if the Senate is debating forcing everyone to wear buttons with large bicycles on them? Would an Allanaki care if halflings were on the rise in the Northlands?

The answer to both of those is of course "maybe, it depends on the character". But I think its better for characters (or the players behind the characters) decide on whats best for the character, when presented by things in-game. Rumors might, or might not be right...and they're always flavored by the person that tells them.

It also removes the fun of the discovery of the metaplot by the players - if we flat out tell you that Bynners have been spontaneously combusting at random, you wouldn't even have to log into the game to find out. You'd just know, OOC.

However, I do see you point about having more metaplot-type-things posted. Its a good idea.

Just a few thoughts on metaplots.

-Tlaloc

[Kalden forgets to log in]

Actually, this happens. Only, it happens in game, and from the eyes of the locals by getting posted on rumor boards, talking NPC's, and various other means.

That is very heartening. I'm a newbie, but I've been to too many rp muds where the imms just throw the players into the world and expect them to develop everything on their own, without the vast resources of the game world and npcs. A nice thing about this mud is that it seems like the characters have developed the good habit of taking their own initiative in roleplaying, which is precious.

The danger about an OOC blanket announcement of whats going on is that its OOC

You're right, and it isn't nice to give away OOC things that people wouldn't know about IC. I didn't suggest it, but I was thinking that it would probably be best if these were local, and only let people who would hear about this sort of thing know. A nobleman would know what's happening in the Senate, for example, or a Merchant would know about merchant events. But that is where it gets harder to do, giving everyone their own little events. Perhaps just dividing them by regioin would work, and only posting things that would be more readily apparent. If an imm wants more people to know, then they could broadcast it as a rumor. if they don't, keep it secretive.

It seems to me that for the most part, the Zalanthas world and people are static and reactionary to what the players do. With a more living, growing world, it leaves more things for players to react to and to get involved in. Just because a player in the Arm of the Dragon doesn't want to clean up the 'Rinth doesn't mean a superior doesn't want to. Or, just because there isn't a halfing rallying together the halflings doesn't mean they can't decide to outright raid the city of Tuluk. Or, just because there isn't a player gith rallying together gith tribes to attack Luirs Outpost doesn't mean it can't happen, or it shouldn't. And contracts for the Byn don't necessarily need to come from players either. I'd like to see the imms change the world a bit to their thematic liking over time, especially since time moves so fast on Armageddon.

That sort of stuff is a lot of hard work though, and I don't blame anyone for not wanting to do it.

[The7DeadlyVenomz]

If an imm wants more people to know, then they could broadcast it as a rumor. if they don't, keep it secretive.

I'd like to see the imms change the world a bit to their thematic liking over time, especially since time moves so fast on Armageddon.

That sort of stuff is a lot of hard work though, and I don't blame anyone for not wanting to do it.

They do tho. :lol:

[crymerci]

Ok, I've thought about this some more, and I'm not sure that this is a problem you can completely eradicate. Yes, docs will help, but I think a large part of where players get their perceptions of what's appropriate is from other players.

If someone was made to bow on threat of death when they played Joe Commoner, they are more likely to repeat that behavior when they play Joseph Templar. If you've heard that story about how Jane Borsail enslaved handsome men who she favored, then you might, when playing a noble, think enslaving commoners is ok.

There's no way the imms can police what every player does, all the time. Things are going to slip by and become common practice. Hopefully with more docs the right practices will be propagated, but people will still make mistakes.