Desert elf movement change..

[EvilRoeSlade]

Kronus:  Moving your tribes encampment is in order.  Desert Elves are nomadic anyway, so why should they locate their camp in a place where you claim that you can't function?  And if there are at least three desert elves in your tribe, then I don't see why you can't afford a 700-coin light-weight tent.  Not to mention, your tribe has picked a harsh place to live in, so why do you expect anything other than harsh consequences?  Stop griping :P

Creeper:  It wouldn't hurt to play a desert elf before you make up your mind, since I don't think you quite realize what your talking about.  Desert elves are NOT equal to humans in capability, they still have their running ability, which gives them huge bonuses to movement when they run.

Anyway, this is where I step down from this post and quit arguing.  All I've seen so far (as Callisto pointed out eariler) is arguements that the race isn't as powerful as it was, or the penalty is too harsh.  I understand why the staff has done this, and I agree with their reasoning.  However, the only counterpoint I've seen is that you desert elves lost your power, and you want it back.  I don't care about game balance myself (and until I play one and am proven otherwise, I still think that desert elves have considerably more at their disposal than the average non-karma race) but I do believe that each race should have realistic capabilities based on what they are.  The other races have them already as far as I'm concerned, and now desert elves do too.

LOVE AND KISSES.

(By the way, I like Samoa's idea too!)

[Anonymous]

I'm a big fan of Samoa's idea, but I think it might be easier to code as new races.

The existing Delf race could be split into four races:

Plains Elves
Grasslands Elves
Tablelands Elves
Red Desert Elves

That would do away with the need to code an entire new command to have players set their preferred terrain types.  I am just pulling those above terrains out of the air, but I'm guessing that each terrain has its own label.  The major terrain types then could be set with movement penalties relative to the preferred terrain type of the each elven subrace.

Obviously if Samoa's idea was easier to implement then that would be the way to go, but my own limited time with a Diku derivative made it seem that new races using existing races as a template were easy enough to whip out.

Doing this would accomplish what I believe the staff was most interested in, limiting the trans-Zalanthas travel of Delfs while not leaving elves whose homes are set in harsh terrain up shit creek.

Props to Samoa for what I think is a great idea.

[Anonymous]

For the record, I've seen dozens more kank-mounted riders go from Allanak to Tuluk without stopping than I have seen desert elves.

I don't know where you're getting your information, but you're mistaken.  A kank mounted rider cannot make if from Allanak to Tuluk without stopping.  I've tried, and it didn't work - you can make it to Luirs safely without stopping.

Did you travel the north road the entire time?  How heavy was your PC?  Was your breed of kank the cheapest?  How much stuff did you have packed on you?

I am nearly positive I've been with a group that went from Allanak to at least the span without stopping, but this was over a year ago and I think I've tried to play my travel out more realistically since then.

[Lazloth]

I'm a big fan of Samoa's idea, but I think it might be easier to code as new races.

The existing Delf race could be split into four races:

Plains Elves
Grasslands Elves
Tablelands Elves
Red Desert Elves

Why go through all that nonsense when you can simply add options to "point <hometown>" in HoK if that's the intent?

Though interesting, I'm not sold on this idea.  Having played d.elves before, I feel I'm entitled to some little amount of opinion, and I'm on the side of fence that says "This was a change long in coming; before fucking with it again to appease immediate whining, gauge it in production as stands."  Like Roe, I'm out of here!

[Anonymous]

I'm a big fan of Samoa's idea, but I think it might be easier to code as new races.

The existing Delf race could be split into four races:

Plains Elves
Grasslands Elves
Tablelands Elves
Red Desert Elves

Why go through all that nonsense when you can simply add options to "point <hometown>" in HoK if that's the intent?

Because then you end up with more desert elf city dwellers, since Delfs couldn't just run to the tablelands from Allanak easily anymore.

And I would, based on my own limited diku derivative coding, think that adding flags to a character to give them easier movement depending on a choice they made at chargen would be more time consuming to code than using built-in commands to copy and then modify an existing race.

I'm not against the idea on its own, and if every race had Delf movement capabilities and they all got nerfed to force people to take into account the size of the world, I wouldn't complain at all.

Personally, though, I really need to have some reason that makes sense to me why the original founder(s) of Delf culture decided that riding a kank would be bad.  Not the Imms, the historical first elf.

What made the first Delf who thought kanks were for losers, think that?  The answer used to be easy.

[Angela Christine]

I'm a big fan of Samoa's idea, but I think it might be easier to code as new races.

The existing Delf race could be split into four races:

Plains Elves
Grasslands Elves
Tablelands Elves
Red Desert Elves

Why go through all that nonsense when you can simply add options to "point <hometown>" in HoK if that's the intent?

Either way, it would be nice if there were a southern hometown available for d-elves, all of them having northern accents is a little strange.  I suppose giving the desert elves no accent would accomplish the same thing.  Most PC desert elves may choose to live in the north for the easy food and water, but ICly there are several tribes in the south.

Anyway, I also like Samoa's idea.  I'm not sure how feasible it is though.  There obviously are different terrain types coded in, but how many?  I think to give elves a good run of territory you'd want 5-7 terrain types, if there were only 2 or 3 then they'd be all over the world again, if there were 10-20 the territories would be too small.  Is running through sand in the Red Desert much different than the sand in the Tablelands or the sand in the dunes around Allanak?  I don't know.  Is there much of a difference a difference between the Dusty plains, the Windy plains, the Scrub plains and the grasslands?  Then again, this too would be abuseable.  Who is going to pick "grasslands" as their prefered territory if grasslands are already cheap to run accross?  Maybe plains and grasslands would be rolled together.

Sandy

(most "desert" spaces)
Rocky (rocky barrens, rougher desert areas)
Plains
Woods (Basically the Grey Forest and other treed spaces)
Flats (sand flats and salt flats)
Hilly (hills and canyons)
Thorny (thornlands and other thick brush spaces)[/list]

AC

[Kronus]

After doing a little more careful looking, I've noticed that the actual mv costs for movement appear to have been further reduced for a running delf. Not by 50% like the mvs themselves, but by a noticeable amount. This has the net effect of making the movement point slashing not quite as severe as the flat numbers would indicate. It still seems a little heavy to me, but I'll give the changes a chance as they stand.


I had more to say about the general 'Get a tent and shut up' attitude people are giving upset d-elf players rather than addressing their real concerns, but just pointing it out will hopefully be enough.

[Twilight]

I was wondering about what Kronus stated, about the cost per room.

Under the old system, D-Elves used the default walking room cost, and cut it by a percentage.  As such, it was fairly easy to figure out how much further than a human walking that you could travel.  I'll refrain from posting the numbers, but I am sure a lot of you know the relationship.

The more I read this thread, the more I think that if there is a problem, it lies less with the movement point cut than with the way that D-Elf running ability was coded in the first place, as a simple percentage of their walking value.  I think we have an opportunity here to actually make D-Elves more unique, in a way.  Let me explain.

I would suggest adding in a new field to your Room sectors.  Basically, I'm assuming currently there is one movement cost associated with an Rsector currently, which is multiplied/divided by whether you are walking/running/sneaking and whether you are a D-Elf.  Rather than try to work within that framework, I think there is the opportunity, as I said, to make D-Elves  more unique by adding a second movement cost value to Rsectors for D-Elves that are running.  Basically, if D-Elves are walking, they use the first value, if they are running they use the second value.

The real benefit of this is it can be used to truly differentiate a D-Elf from a mount, or another race that is walking.  One thing I always saw as a problem was the very low movement cost it took a D-Elf to run on a road.  You could make it so that it took more for a D-Elf to run on a road, thus making it harder to travel from City to City, but that the movement cost for rough tablelands terrain was lowered.  Most rooms not below ground could have a movement cost of 2 or 3, maybe even 1 for really easy running ground, like in a city (I think D-elves should get a movement penalty in cities when running, not used to crowds).  Suddenly, the kank riders can run an elf down if he sticks to the roads, but if he darts off into his native canyons, or red desert or wherever, and uses the rooms he knows favors him, suddenly the kank riders are in trouble.

Anyway, thanks to Kronus's post for sparking the idea.

[Lazloth]

Damn, I did say I'd step away, but all of this whining has once again sparked the hide all the numbers from the players bug in my ass.  If the prompt/score/et.al. were reduced to text and variegated by race, then the mechanics become moot.  We players have shown time and again that we are incapable of living in a numeric Zalanthas!

Viva mathematical ignorance!

[X-D]

Well first, YES, it is quite possible to ride a kank from nak to tuluk nonstop, I've done it a couple times, there are some variables to contend with but you can still do it, not saying what kind of kank I used either, but probly not what you would expect.

I also would like to comment (again) on game balance, there is basicly two ways to balance the game/races/classes, either make them all very close in skills/powers/stats/ or make them very far apart yet with distinctive advantages and disadvantages, I myself prefer the second method as it makes things far more interesting all the way around, when you use the reduce method things start to feel stagnat, well, to me at least.

Myself, I have never seen the d-elf movement as incredibly powerful, Oh sure, you could run from luirs to storm nonstop, but that is something a mounted char can do as well, well, not run....I had plenty of fun and good rp that stemmed directly from the d-elf ability to run fast and far, though none of mine went farther south the luirs. had a good time one falling from a cliff in a little group, finding we were in gypsy lands and attempting to escape, We did, but not before many close calls and adventure, emotes rp, and in the end we were still in the lands and out of movement and had to turn to a desperate means of escape, gypsies in front, gypsies behind, and less then 30mv in a mountan area where it is costing even a d-elf 6mv per room, what do you do, I know all the chars that were involved are long long since dead but they would probobly say it was loads of fun and excitement and just a razors edge from death the whole time.

If d-elves would have had mv cut in half at the time, either we would have never gotten into the position at all or we simply would have died to npc's within 10 rooms of the spot we fell in, no fun, no real rp.

I think this cut creates a loss for the game and the world same as the across the board cut to hp regen did.

[Forest Junkie]

I've already given my opinion that I don't think HALVING mv was a good idea, so I won't rehash all that crap. I'm just gonna restate I think that this completely sux

[kiddgoth]

Just my 2-cents for what its worth, I completely understand that the Imm's wanted to fix the bug, to them it was just that a bug, they have been debating it for sometime now. But let me add this perspective. What are d-elfs called?.. I beleive runners is the common term, they run it defines them as a race more than anyone thing, its there pride, it is what sets them apart from their city cousin, its what gives them the cocky attitude of superiority toward the other races. We dont have to live within walled cities to survive...why cuz we run the sands we dont need any mount to carry us, our legs are stronger than any beast of burden * truth or not* it is who they are, at least who they where. Now they are city elfs with a tan I have played both and know both have the average same movement points now. Having just seen a d-elf chased down by 3 kank riders and killed sparked a tinge of sadness in me. I am sure the evil d-elf deserved it even though she was killed cowering on the road exhausted. I just know the best rp sessions come from setting up villians over time. Example my old d-elf hated the byn, its was in his background they slaughter his mother and father damn shit cloaks. Anyways the best time I had was rping with the shitcloaks as I tried to destroy them one at a time. We had many encounters and as my skills grew and their skills grew we had many epic battles, other d-elfs joined me more byn always joined them. So when they finally trapped me *bows slightly to the master mind who did* and rp'd my killing which was great and when I died I was smiling. Just saying no d-elf raider is going to attack any mounted party now it would be suicide, no more long time hated enemies unless we stick to the cities like are wall-kin. The d-elf raider was a force to be feared now the threat is no more. Talkin about realistic rp how about this one d-elf ambushes roundear on kank, opps roundear is a badass, d-elf runs to city to hide, why because d-elf cant out runner roundear kank. roundear finds d-elf at city gate resting safe. lame rp but its either that or die now. It not about whining its about what I think made the d-elf race worth being a karma race, hours of solo rping in the waste, testing your limits on long runs. Swindling the roundears for their worthless coins and then throwing it away in the sands as I ran into the wastes to head back to the post and brag to your tribes vnpc's. My heart goes out to the Soh Lanah Kah I hope the tribe survives the change its hard enough to find d-elfs to rp with as it was. I would have did it a litttle different I would have given a d-elf a bigger boost to stamina on character creation and then whatever their stat gave them in movement points I would have increased it by 1.25 or 1.5, so an average d-elf would have 200 to 240 movement points insted of the 300 plus they had before. But what do I know I just stand there and cut 50 trees down without resting... some of these posts make me laugh I hope mine entertain as well...I love everyone!

[Savak]

Point by point:

1) I still don't like to see numbers spewed forth on the discussion board -- so much so that I would have deleted/edited on the order of ten posts because I feel they go into too much unecessary detail had I caught them the day of posting.  However, I've just finished a trip with a net flying time of over 30 hours and I just can't think that hard.  And I know ppl are just trying to explain themselves.  But still.

2) I have long been a proponent of changing desert elves, most particularly with regard to some of their excessive physical bonuses.  I was playing a Blackwing many RL years ago, during the time they were OOC'ly banned from going to the cities and the clan was in the midst of its first major stagnation.  We walked everywhere, and rested frequently.  I felt I was living in a harsh world, and indeed it was.  One day our leader stood up and said, "Come, we will run the desert today on our way home.." and everyone sorta sat quietly a moment before finally saying, "Uh..okay."  Was she crazy, asking us to "run" when we'd collapse with no stamina in about 12 seconds flat?  Bah, we were tough, it'd be okay.  But no!  It was a test!  Of..the new fandangled run bonus for elves (well, at the time applied only to Blackwing, the only "desert" elves).  It was the coolest thing since the double-sized water-filled gourd.  And THEN, within DAYS, we got a MASSIVE stamina bonus.  Dude.  Cloud nine.  (And THEN, a couple of RL years after that, city elves and desert elves were given their own race, with certain physical attribute pluses & minuses which tended to give desert elves even MORE stamina and FASTER resting.)

That was the same day I put in my first "idea," to lower the bonus a bit.  We went from having to rest at least once between home and the nearest center of civilization to being able to run from home to the nearest two centers of civilization and, if we pushed it just right, all the way back.  We've bantered around changing this or other things many, many times, although usually with very long periods of ignoring it.

At any rate, yes, I think the bonuses as they used to be were too much.  However, I have *not* looked at or played with the numbers since the lowering in stamina bonus, and thus have no idea whether I personally think it may be "too much."  Nonetheless, as with all things there may be tweakings to follow.  I think our biggest failure with this is the simple fact it took so long to change -- YES, absolutely, many desert elf players have not only become used to it, but dependent on it.  That applies as much, or more, to good players as to so-called "twinks."

3) Other numbers.  How stamina or other things are handled depending on race, time of day, weather, terrain, physical attributes, magick, etc., are always in a state of reconsideration, typified by...shall we say.. punctuated equilibrium -- long periods of little to no change, punctuated by a short timeframe of several noticeable changes.  This applies also to how desert elves (or other races) lose stamina while running/walking/sneaking across a given terrain.  These are more subtle things which might be tweaked before actual stamina bonuses are further changed.

4) I'd suggest that at this stage, feel free to continue posting rants.  For the productive, however, it would be great to put down specific ideas for further changes (up/down, to desert elves or others) in a brief coherent sentence or paragraph and put it in either as an "idea" in-game, in email, or on here (in its own thread, but use your judgement as to how much to detail).

-Savak

[The7DeadlyVenomz]

Ok.

Simple little solution to this whole problem as I have heard of it.

Note that the ONLY elf I have EVER played was a city elf (my first character, in fact), whom I played as a desert elf because:

#1. I didnt have d-elf Karma.

#2. I didn't read the docs.

Anyway, the problem in the main has been the using of d-elf stamina to do things not assossiated with running, and the 'twinky' use of this.

Solution. Add a flag to those 'skills' that check to see if the user of the skill is a d-elf OR elf. Then double or triple the cost to use that skill. While a human chopping down a tree might have to use 8 sta points to make a stroke, a elf or d-elf might have to use 16 to 20. Foraging cost a point, it could cost a d-elf 5 and a elf 2. Do this with ALL of those things. (Note:I have never chopped a tree down either, so I've no idea how much it really costs.)

This is very simple, and it does NOT take away from the playability of the d-elf or elf race.

[Anonymous]

*goes blind*

[Sanvean]

That was...painful.

[Carduus]

Wait, so you admitted to not reading the docs when making an elf, not knowing about the skill system, AND you're trying to blind us? Somehow, I don't think that's going to get the imms' attention in a good way.

[The7DeadlyVenomz]

.........................

Can we stay focused on the issue?

Yes, I played a city elf from the desert. I got bitched at for spamming kicks and scans, riding kanks, and for pretty much everything else. As I got into the game, I learned that my elf was played incorrectly. I asked the imms to change my race to d-elf when I found out that I was not playing my allowed race in the right enviroment. They didn't. If you do not have d-elf karma, and you want to play a d-elf, either the imms don't care, or they just never bitched at me for it. And I lived a long time.

But...can we stay focused on the real issue?

My solution, in my opinion, is perfection. Of course, others will think differently. The point of the post was to present a solution. So...what do you about it?

Look, a post with no color and no smilies...are you bastards happy now?

[Angela Christine]

Look, a post with no color and no smilies...are you bastards happy now?

No, we are never happy.   :twisted:   Happy people have better things to do than obsess about game minutae on an internet discussion board.  We are in danger of becoming Fanboys, and fanboys are never happy; just look at any StarTrek discussion board.   :?

Anyway, I think it would be easier to adjust the stamina cost for d-elves when they move than to adjust the stamina costs for every other stamina sapping activity they might engage in.  Cut the movement costs and d-elves can run far, but not be insanely adept at all other stamina related activities.  

I don't know if the running movement costs need to be cut, but in my limited experience with d-elfs I thought having the same cost whether running or walking would have been helpful.   I can think of reasons why walking may sap more stamina that running, but I really think the walking costs should be cut to be the same as the running costs (the sneaking costs shouldn't be cut though).  That would make traveling with non-elves and pack animals easier.  Sometimes it makes more sense to walk, but you can go twice as far if you run, so they run everywhere.

AC