Desert elf movement change..

[EvilRoeSlade]

Theres one problem. Kanks can still go from Allanak to Tuluk or nearly that without a rest, but now delves can't? Now I understand they shouldn't, but I don't think kanks should either.
Creeper

I personally think that desert elves shouldn't be as good at travelling as a kank.  They're still good runners, and all the code change does is make it so they aren't SUPERNATURAL runners.  I wouldn't really mind seeing kanks lose movement, as long as they could still out-perform desert elves stamina-wise.

One thing that I would like is for desert elves not to have their run bonuses in the city, just as city elves don't have their run bonuses in the desert.  To me being able to run in the city represents being able to run through crowds, perhaps after a failed steal attempt or a swindle gone horribly wrong.  This is something that a city elf would be able to do and a desert elf wouldn't, IMO.

[deviant storm]

I am the one whom Dyranis found had the most to say on Irc. Heh. Frankly, I think the d elves have been done a disservice.

Yes, I am aware they had double advantages. And yes, there were plenty of running twinks. But I feel strongly they overdid the fix, breaking the roleplay for some of us.

Now, currently I do not play a d elf. But I have in the past. And I enjoyed the roleplay experience of a tribe of a group of players mightily. We'd patrol an area that was our 'territory', hunting in that area. With occasional trips to the d elf outpost to trade and see what those 'other' elves were up to. No trips to Tuluk. Or Allanak. Just living in a little iso world.

Funnest parts were the hunting, for me. Going out, especially with an icly younger player, tracking the game, sneaking up on it, talking about the habits of this prey or that and when was the best time to hunt them. You know, like people would, if they were really living that life. I think by cutting the mv basically in half, those days are gone. Or in great peril.

I can see going out and trying it. Only to run into certain aggressive npc mobs, led out of their usual territory by some schmoe with a kank, who easily outdistances it. Leaving for us to deal with. In the past, we have. But if we don't have enough people to drop the thing, we won't be able to outrun it, now. Not after a hunt.
Sure, we can rest. But you can't guarantee you'll get the chance. It's a harsh world, suddenly made all the harder.
Yes, I know. Bug needs fixing, people can band together, etc.

Running was key to our strategy when dealing with pc hostiles too. Who can now outrun us on kanks. Maybe, as Dyranis says, we'll get terrain advantages. All I know is it was hard enough to keep a d elf alive. I'd lost at least two directly to humans in the past, and now any human with the yen to elfhunt will be able to come on some runner out resting after catching some food and pk him before he's had a chance to recover.

Yeah, suck it up. I know. Thing is, we're going to have to 'suck it up' to playing just a few small areas now. Getting even to the outpost will be a major undertaking. If you log on when no one else in your tribe then, it's really going to be super iso now. Hard enough to get people to play in a d elf tribe.

It wasn't meant as a punishment. But somehow, it sure feels like it will be the end to some very fine rp. I know the Imms were doing what they felt needed fixing, but maybe a better solution could be arrived at.

[Swordsman]

Callisto: "You would have to be woefully ignorant to think the karma system is succeeding in keeping restricted races and classes out of the hands of twinks."

Well, since I'm not a super ranger or super defiler who runs around the desert watching d. elf PCs, maybe I am woefully ignorant in this case. Do I think the karma system is perfect in keeping special guilds/races away from twinks? Not for a moment, just the same as not for a moment do I believe that everyone who should be punished (in terms of this game, like being banned, karma taken away, etc.) is punished. You just have to look back at past imm posts to see that they're a pretty merciful bunch. But that's not going to stop me mentioning what I understand the karma system as largely being there for. If nothing else, all these posts might get the imms to start tightening up on karma (like, being tougher about taking it away from people who've shown they can't be trusted). Given what people've been posting in this thread and assuming that they're in a reasonable position to make some judgement on RP appropriateness, it sounds like it might be needed. All IMO.

Swordsman

[Twilight]

I'm not playing a D-Elf currently, so I'm not sure about the exact changes, I'll wait until I next play one to make up my mind.

My initial thoughts on it are, going a normal route, if I am remembering movement costs correctly, given a human and a desert elf with equal movement points, the elf will only be able to go twice as far as the human.  Of course, the elf would be running, and the human walking, but still, this seems just wrong.  I just see a D-elf being able to far outdistance a human, three or four times as much.  Maybe they still have, I don't know what the exact change was.

The problem with most rest points is that people know where they are.  There are a few more secret ones out there, but with known rest points, you just create a choke point.  Perhaps D-Elves will learn to carry tents now more often, so they don't run into this, as far as regening moves.

[LoD]

While I have a few comments about the playability of desert elves and why I support this movement change, I'll leave that to a later date.  What I did want to suggest and get some feedback on was the possible introduction of a smaller and lighter, one-man tent for player's use in the deserts that weren't strong enough or didn't want a tent suitable for fitting 4-8 grown men.

This is an example of what I'd like to see:

Item: a small, reinforced sandcloth tent
Sdesc: A small tent made of reinforced sandcloth lay here, tightly rolled.

Wearable: back, about body, es

DESC:

Crafted from lengths of reinforced sandcloth, sewn tightly together and
fitted with a series of leather strings, this rugged tent has been fitted with
a leather strap for carrying it on one's back or about one's body during
travel in the sands.  Insewn into the fabric is a pair of leather pouches,
one containing a few carved, bone stakes while the other holds a set of
thin wooden poles.  Compact and tightly-rolled, this tent's size appears
to support no more than one humanoid comfortably.

Restrictions: Limit 1 Person

I don't see any problems with making one-man only tents because anyone can come along and break it (by attacking) so it doesn't protect the person inside, only disallows it to be used by multiple people.

Figured this might be of use for the elven and non-elven traveller alike if they want to be a loner, but don't have the strength to support the huge tents presently in the game.

-LoD

[Twilight]

Just replying to LoD, there is a tent out there (maybe more than one), that would be appropriate for a desert elf.  Don't know how many people can fit in it, but I was easily able to carry it with a desert elf.

[Anonymous]

I personally think that desert elves shouldn't be as good at travelling as a kank.  They're still good runners, and all the code change does is make it so they aren't SUPERNATURAL runners.  I wouldn't really mind seeing kanks lose movement, as long as they could still out-perform desert elves stamina-wise.

Alright, so why would desert elf culture long ago make pariahs out of those who ride kanks?  Why would they chose to not use something that would then have a positive impact on the longevity of their people?

I don't mind this change on its own.  But when a kank-mounted rider can still speed hunt and speed ride over the same terrain and catch up to a Delf who has drained his stamina, I think something is wrong.

For the record, I've seen dozens more kank-mounted riders go from Allanak to Tuluk without stopping than I have seen desert elves.

Don't nerf desert elves without nerfing kanks.  Otherwise desert elves not using kanks doesn't make sense to me.

Maybe I'm just cynical, but I look at fear of death as the ultimate proving grounds for your beliefs.  I think not just a few homophobes would suck them some pecker if it meant they would be left alive.  Same for desert elves.  A significant number would, when push comes to shove, hop onto a kank to ride to safety since it now means they could get further.

[Samoa]

I had a small idea that I just emailed along instead of posting, but I figure I may as well outline it somewhat for you guys too.  Basically, my suggestion was this:

D-elves are alloted a series of terrains.  Like, for example, desert, mountains, scrub, something like that.  A command is added for new and old d-elves alike, allowing them to set their 'native' terrain - this command may ONLY be used once.  Once used, they get their d-elf bonuses while in that terrain.  They'll have shortened movement costs and things elsewhere as well, but their most noticeable difference will be in that one particular terrain they have chosen.

This still encourages tribes to stick to one particular kind of area and not the whole world, as was previously mentioned, but it also helps those who feel they're now crippled.  It still cuts down on twinks, who will not be able to traverse the entire known world with a d-elf - but it doesn't harm those who are RP'ing correctly.  A kank maybe can outrun an elf in the desert, or around Luir's, but not near its home, where it has lived its entire life.  Native terrain represents familiarity with that kind of area, as well as simple adaption.

Anyway... that's just a brief spurt of what I was thinking of and sent in, so now you're all the wiser.  Anyone's thoughts?

[Delirium]

Just to chime in, I like that a lot, Samoa. Hopefully it wouldn't be too hard to code. Seems like a reasonable compromise to me.

[EvilRoeSlade]

What I did want to suggest and get some feedback on was the possible introduction of a smaller and lighter, one-man tent for player's use in the deserts that weren't strong enough or didn't want a tent suitable for fitting 4-8 grown men.

Look around in the Blackwing Outpost, and you WILL find what you are looking for.

[EvilRoeSlade]

Alright, so why would desert elf culture long ago make pariahs out of those who ride kanks?  Why would they chose to not use something that would then have a positive impact on the longevity of their people?

One reason.  Pride.

Don't nerf desert elves without nerfing kanks.  Otherwise desert elves not using kanks doesn't make sense to me.

Maybe I'm just cynical, but I look at fear of death as the ultimate proving grounds for your beliefs.  I think not just a few homophobes would suck them some pecker if it meant they would be left alive.  Same for desert elves.  A significant number would, when push comes to shove, hop onto a kank to ride to safety since it now means they could get further.

By your logic, a dwarf should just give up his focus if he knows its going to get him killed.  Or perhaps a Northerner should make friends with a magicker if he's afraid the magicker is going to kill him.  People don't always take the most rational course of action in any given situation, and hell, tribal beliefs and customs are rarely very reasonable as a rule.  I personally think a desert elf might ride a kank to save his life, but not as a general mode of transportation.  If he did, he'd be very embarrassed about it, and he certainly wouldn't mention it to anybody.

I personally wouldn't mind seeing kanks have less stamina, provided they could still out-perform desert elves.  A Desert elf is basically equivalent to a human Olympic runner, while a kank is equivalent to a giant insect.  As Adult Content pointed out, the latter is going to be a hell of a lot more efficient.

Personally, I think that once people get used to the change, there will be less deaths due to running out of movement.  Probably roughly equivalent to the amount of deaths that result from when kanks run out of stamina and leave their rider stranded.  I've played many, many desert elves, and none of them have ever even had to worry about their movement.  I think the change was much needed.

[X-D]

Well, I also am not currently playing a d-elf, but When I have, I can remember plenty of times when my char or the group he was in ran out of movement Or got low enough to have to take drastic action to survive.
Getting chased by gypsies is not very fun, some may remember how we got out of that.

But at least all the d-elf players know now what it felt like to be playing a dwarf when the hp regen was halved, Oh look, humans heal up as fast as the dwarf now...Oh look, I can't outrun or go farther then a kank, Myself, I hate anything that makes a class or race closer to others, each class or race should have distinctive advantages and disadvantages, city elves should be FAST in action and agile, d-elves should be able to RUN, dwarves should HEAL, muls are STRONG and giants are HUGE, humans should have no true advantage or disadvantage, this then is the advantage to them. I would go into the other races, But I think everybody gets the picture. Just my 2 sid here, I know it is not gonna change anything but I know I will think twice now about playing another d-elf.

D-Elves will now actually have to try to think of how they are going to escape instead of just run real far real fast. Climb up something so the following filthy kank riders can't follow you. Etc. Unless they know exactly where you are going, you can lose then because they are not going to run their kanks and it takes time to track like I said unless they know exactly where you are going. So don't go exactly where they think you are going.

Kanks are a crutch and thus if you lose your kank your in a lot of trouble. Elves don't have to worry about that.

I can't really say in earnest how it affects them because I have never played a D-elf. But I will say this, if elves get their movement back I think dwarves should get their more powerful regen back.

And its not like everyone runs out to attack D-elves without numbers. I mean not more than once. D-elves are not very easy to kill in just straight up fights. The person would have to either get a lot of people, get a half-giant to subdue them(probably twinkish), poison etc. Else, D-elves just run away. Their high agility makes it tough to just cut down. I personally try and have at least three to one odds since I am a karmaless loser, and the people I run with are not karma characters either. So unless they are soh I leave them be unless provoked of course.

[chang]

D-Elves will now actually have to try to think of how they are going to escape instead of just run real far real fast. Climb up something so the following filthy kank riders can't follow you.

Never played a D-Elf myself, but that sounds like fun.

[gfair]

Samoa's idea sounds good. Better to be first in the Tablelands than Second across Zalanthas.

Perhaps there are even evolutionary adaptations for d-elves on certain terrain.  Wider feet for desert d-elfs to get better traction in sand.  More padding in feet that run on harder lands. That, in conjunction with boots, of course.  Perhaps d-elfs also have the finest quality travelling boots in the land because they travel so much.

Implementing this system depends on whether there's a difference made between, say, red desert land versus tablelands or southern waste lands.  If so, good, if not, then it would still allow d-elfs to run freely on a great variety of land, which would have to be fixed.


But certainly, the distinctiveness of the d-elf is lessened it seems.  Either that, or to be true global travellers, people will have to look to other races that are not so tribal in nature.

[Angela Christine]

D-Elves will not actually have to try to think of how they are going to escape instead of just run real far real fast. Climb up something so the following filthy kank riders can't follow you.

Never played a D-Elf myself, but that sounds like fun.

Yeah, or deliberately run into a hole, assuming you can find one.   :roll:  You'll get out of that hole a lot faster than a kank.  When you climb out of the hole you have three directions to choose from; so if your pursuers go around the hole they will have to check around to see which direction you took off in.   Or over a cliff.  When you are trying to elude riders climb is your friend.  

Desert hide is also good for those times when you run out of stamina; the pursuers might see you, or they might not.   It is too bad you can't regen stamina at all while hiding, I think most methods of hiding would let you regen slowly.

You can also run through an NPC ambush point, usually as an elf I could move through these rooms before the NPCs react, while those on a walking kank will be slower, especially if they are trying to track.  Gith and other meanies will be happy to take a few humans off your trail.  The humans will either die, run away, or stand and fight; running will sap thier kank's movement, fighting will take time and let you get farther ahead.  

Running through traps (holes, cliffs, NPC strong points, etc) doesn't just slow down your enemies, it demoralizes them.  Stupid humans.  

AC

[Plazgoth]

I currently play a DE and think that the new change will achieve it's intended goals of limiting mindless wandering of DEs through the Known World. I don't think that the wandering will stop, it will just be better planned less mindless. And when a DE now travels outside their "territory" it will take them longer to get where they are going and will force them to stay there for longer periods of time. The tent idea is also great, before tents were not required, now you will end up seeing DEs with tents all over.

I think the change will have another side effect, it will make players currently playing DEs bitter and hateful toward all races, more then they previously were. Personally I used to see my elf as a lot more superior to others and would let others live 99%, choosing to go after them for the interaction rather then for the kill. Now I would not think twice before killing someone, since they are on equal grounds with me, I would still come after them for the RP and interaction, I just won't feel like I am abusing my powers when I kill them off.

I think the change might also cause less interaction between DEs and other races. Since DEs will be limited they will probably go for the quick kill, leaving no room for an elaborate chase. And will probably emote a lot less before attacking.

Hot_Dancer brought up a good point, if your tribe chose to live in a rougher area, then it is indeed a pain to get to and from your camp, so guess what, you find IC reasons to not go back but once in a great while, or maybe you go back to your camp virtually, when you are logged off.

I also tend to agree with CRW that, it does not make sense why D-elves would not ride since it is to their advantage to do so now. And Krath knows, elves would do anything which is to their advantage.  

Well that's it, just wanted to voice my thoughts on the matter. Ultimately, I don't really care one way or the other.  I tend to adapt to whatever changes happen, and since I am extremely addicted it will not stop me from playing.

[Flaming Ocotillo]

If desert elves require next to no stamina to move in each outdoor "room", the change might work. As it is, it doesn't work. There's not enough compensation for the reduction in stamina points.

That basically sums it up.

[deviant storm]

Another sad thing. It's going to be harder to steal.

D elves do steal. I've done so, others have too. Usually hit and runs, since groups of armed men can be dangerous. And it's not as good a steal, not as artfully done, if you wind up bleeding afterwards.

It's going to make stealing so much harder if you live out in the boonies. All the other tribes are going to look down on yours for not having good thieves. That's going to mean sticking to raiding instead of sneaky and more mv oriented stealing techniques.

[Sanvean]

Among other things, desert elves still have less movement lag than any other race, including kanks.

Much of the feedback has been useful, some more than others. I think Ness will probably continue tweaking the code as a result of some of it.

Yes, desert elves are a karma race - the very first one on the ladder, and lower in karma requirement than any other karma race or guild. In some ways they're a way of testing out whether someone is capable of handling a more challenging role or not. I'm not fond of solutions advocating taking away karma or being even more stringent with it.

[Glowworm]

I don't mind this change on its own. But when a kank-mounted rider can still speed hunt and speed ride over the same terrain and catch up to a Delf who has drained his stamina, I think something is wrong.

For the record, I've seen dozens more kank-mounted riders go from Allanak to Tuluk without stopping than I have seen desert elves.

Don't nerf desert elves without nerfing kanks. Otherwise desert elves not using kanks doesn't make sense to me.

I don't know where you're getting your information, but you're mistaken.  A kank mounted rider cannot make if from Allanak to Tuluk without stopping.  I've tried, and it didn't work - you can make it to Luirs safely without stopping.

Second, for all of you DE's out there, your travel is NOT comparable to travel using a kank.  Kanks and other mounts recieve large movement penalties when they run - DE's do not.  Running, a kank MAY be able to make it 1/2-3/4's of the way to Luirs (off the main roads) before it can no longer move from exhaustion.  Furthermore, you recieve less lag time for movement than any mount...I know because I've tried to chase a DE before.  Most mounted travel is only feasable when WALKING, so don't get all worried about people chasing you down on kanks.

Third, there is a HUGE combat disadvantage while mounted.  You can only wield one weapon (unless you're a certain class and very skilled with ride), and your defense is majorly nerfed while riding.

So what if you can't run to Luir's and back now without a rest?  You never should have been able to.  If you want to go against what all the docs tell you about DE roleplay, go ahead and try to ride a mount for a while.  Maybe then you'll realize how many advantages you still have left.

[Angela Christine]

Pan-world travel is still possible.  While the movement cost for rough terrain is significant, the movement costs on most roads are modest.  Even a walking human can make it pretty damn far if they stay on the roads.  The roads are more likely to have ambushes than random patches of wilderness, but you can usually run right by them as long as you don't stop and look around.  So if you want to be a lone wanderer or trader who goes to cities accross the known world, you can still do that.  You'll have to rest occasionally, but that isn't a big deal if you plan your route.  That doesn't help for moving around within a territory, but if you want to head from the elven outpost to luir's outpost to trade, that is still doable.


AC

[Callisto]

Just wanted to add that Samoa's idea is a good one, in my opinion. Thats all.

[Kronus]

I play a desert elf right now. I'm not very active currently, so maybe that invalidates my thoughts on the matter, but this is something which hit very close to home, so to speak. Allow me, if you will, to spit out some number statistics for a moment:

Under the old system, my d-elf, with all current equipment, some of it +mv gear, worn, had around 340 mv. Typically, that being when I didn't sleep to 'top off', I would wind up with between 310 and 318 mv after resting up. Still a considerable amount, especially compared to humans.
However, at 310 mv, I'd leave my tribe's camp and start running towards the first room where there's an option to go in more than two directions (ie, somewhere where there was more than going forward or back the way you came). 8 rooms of canyon, at 6mv each, this would leave me at 268 mv, and from that number, I would actually be able to begin any trip to any other location. 268 mv would typically let me do a little bit of wandering around and hunting and still make it to the d-elf outpost without too much to worry about.
Under the new system, I have 160 mv. Less than half of what I used to have. Without sleeping, I have about 135-140. After leaving my tribe's canyon to the first open area of the Tablelands, I'm already down to 80 - 90 mv. From there, I know of two good resting spots (which are about as safe to rest in as it is to sleep in the Gaj sleeping room) within 10 rooms of that spot, and then nothing at all between those and the d-elf outpost.
This means that I can either do some limited hunting, or make it to the d-elf outpost in a single run, but not both. To me, this isn't a matter of being able to make it from Tuluk to Allanak and back without getting my leggings sweaty. This change has made it so that I can't even move between my tribe's settlement and the next closest settlement unless I take the road and do nothing else along the way.

Not too recently, myself and a couple of other d-elfs from my tribe decided to follow a fourth d-elf we'd never seen before. Using all the skills and knowledge of the terrain, we stalked this guy out of the outpost, through winding canyons, witnessed him casting a spell or two, continued to follow him back out of the canyons and over to the Span, and there ambushed the filthy magicker. We seriously wounded him and he ran, and we followed. Back down the road, back into the canyons, hiding, sneaking, running, hunting, dodging anakore and getting very, very worried that we weren't going to be able to get back out before collapsing from exhaustion.
When we finally cornered the magicker and killed him, I was down to 30 mv. We had no real idea where we were, and had to rest, out in the open, without a tent, in anakore-infested canyons, overnight. It was one of the most exciting, scary and thrilling hours I've ever had on Armageddon.
If this hadn't happened two months ago, but had instead happened this week? No epic chase, no getting lost in the winding canyons, no abject fear from being in a position I'd never been in before (almost out of mv's). Magicker wouldn't have gone into the canyons, because he wouldn't be able to make it back out. He would have run straight for the outpost after we attacked him, because it was the only place he'd have had enough mv's to get to from the Span. We all would have run in past the Blackwing guards, huffing and puffing, and proceeded to exchange trite insults and backtalk in the Desert Rose, impotent because the NPC guards would kill us all if we tried anything.
We've dealt with a d-elf who forced us into that situation too, in the past, and I have to say that the magicker made it far, far more interesting and enjoyable, thanks. And the only way he was able to do that was because of 300+ mv.

Another, similar story goes when we chased a flying gith defiler out of his nest and clear across the tablelands, fingers shaking and sweat rolling down my forehead from the excitement. If we'd all been hobbled back then like we are now? We would have had to have rested when we reached his lair, because we would have barely made it there. And then rested again twenty rooms back out after trying to chase him. Not very exciting.

You can say that d-elves were broken, that too many twinks abused their special ability, that it was never intended to be the way it was and that it's finally, five years later, been fixed.
But I want to say two things in return:
1) The most fun, exciting and thrilling moments I've had as my d-elf have been a direct product of their former 'supernatural' travelling ability. With my PC, I've been to the Scaien area once, Luir's never, and Allanak one time and only as a result of an immortal's involvement (ie, plot - and thank you! It was a ton of fun ). I've never left the Tablelands of my own free will, and have always kept to the very limited span of terrain between my tribe's camp and the d-elf outpost. Now my ability to do even that, much less chase gith defilers across the waste and tainted magicker scum through the 'kore canyons, is severely curtailed, because some gimp in some other part of the world was chopping too many logs?
2) I had enough of moving and resting and moving and resting again as a human. I know how to do it, I don't mind doing it. It's fine that I have to do it. But I'm not playing a human anymore, and yet... Now I'm being told that I'll just have to learn how to move and rest and move and rest again, and in terrain which is notoriously bad for resting.
What's the point of playing a desert elf? I'm weak, I can't ride kanks, and now I can't even run like the wind?

I don't mind balance. Balance is a beautiful, glorious thing in my mind. I don't think this is balance. This is taking the one splendid, shining virtue of the desert elf race and pissing all over it because some individuals weren't able to restrain themselves.
If d-elf movement points need to be reduced, fine. I strongly disagree that they do, but I'm not the one out cutting down 500 trees without resting or trotting merrily with a backpack full of spice from Red Storm to Tuluk on a sunny Nekrete afternoon. It seems like the problem wasn't the number of mv's, but instead the way they were being used in very specific situations (ie, on roads and in other, non-movement tasks).
But cutting my mv's down by over half? That's extremely harsh. My last PC, a human, had 148 mv. I have 160 with my desert elf now. Fine, maybe I can run now when I couldn't with the human, but I'm still not going to be making any kind of distance before getting worn out. My human could at least ride a kank for long trips.

[creeper386]

Okay, again, normal little quib about me not playing a delf and don't know anything, but this is just want I've heard and figured out smashed together.

Elves before wouldn't use kanks because the kanks couldn't keep up running, but now they can't use them because they can't go into the resting places. They are still in the same boat as everyone else except they can't ride the kanks.

It's been told that elves tend to go acrossed country. Tend to rely on their own abilities and skill then some road or anything else. They rely on their ability to run further and faster then anyone else. They can still do that but it's really limited and it seems cutting down the movement points seems to force delfs to the roads and easier places where the less then elves would use because they aren't as good, and even with the better terrain they need mounts.

As well, people complain about ISO groups, and that ISO groups should still be able to make trips to the more populated regions and such, and people really complain about delves cutting the player base up. Well, this certainly doesn't help any. Before what would be a difficult trip if they tried carrying any amount of goods to trade because they can't use pack animals, also have to go along ways, seems to be a nearly impossible trip because they well need lots of rest, animals still aren't an option for packing stuff. It doesn't seem to help very much.

I think it'd probably be easier to change the code abit instead of hacking down what delves have been for along time and what the well played delves really need just to survive. Yes, it was a bug, and just now being changed because of people cutting down trees and doing other non running activities and getting the bonus. Couldn't these activities just cost more stamina? As AC said delves could probably still run along the roads without too much difficulty. Probably well still be as many people doing that as before, and still lots of people doing long trips in short times with kanks and such. So that doesn't seem to be the problem. And it seems to mostly effects the elves that ARE staying in their area, that are hunting and doing what delves do.

Now, going to have to take all that with a big sack of salt, maybe all the salt flats worth of salt, because I don't have any first hand knowledge, but I know Hot_Dancer tends to know what he's talking about as well as others that have mentioned something about it now probably being very difficult to hunt and everything in their own territory... So... Maybe this WELL help bring delves in to populated areas, but thats only because they can't survive in their own territory like they should, or at least not without alot of hassle. I get frustrated and tired and sometimes in danger with humans just outside the gates of Allanak, and I don't think the land is as difficult or the creatures as dangerous as 'kore or meks and 'mets or anything else.


Thanks if you read it all.

Creeper