Desert elf movement change..

[Hot_Dancer]

I think it was a little too severe up front, a reduce to an average of 200-250 would be more playable. Right now, an isolated group of d-elves who live in rough terrain is in for an unreasonably tough time. It's going to hinder my tribe big time...

Also, if the change isn't tinkered with will city elves be made able run as well?

Hot_Dancer

[The Lonely Hunter]

As I'm not an elf right now I can't speak from first hand but I have a feeling that outridding a group of angry elves is going to be a lot easier...unless they lay it all down and get their own kanks heh.

[EvilRoeSlade]

I think that the reasons for the change are clear, and the immortals do have a point.  You won't be able to run across the known world and back anymore, but you can still function without kanks.

I personally like the changes.  It will discourage city elves from playing roles that aren't city oriented, and it will make desert elves less appealing to twinks.

[creeper386]

Ooh, Hmm... Probably means it's going to be alot longer untill I try a desert elf... Maybe it'd make kanks as pack animals more useful? I don't know... But when I heard people barely making it out in tough terrain when they had alot of stamina I'd hate to see it after the stamina has been drastically cut.

Creeper who hasn't played a delf but also feels it might be bad from what he's heard in his research of maybe playing one.

[Swordsman]

EvilRoeSlade: "It will discourage city elves from playing roles that aren't city oriented, and it will make desert elves less appealing to twinks." Ummm ... I thought that desert elf is a karma race, so ... twinks shouldn't even be getting this race, should they? And if someone does get desert elf and is found to be a twink, then they'd lose the option? Just musing (not being sarcastic or anything).

Swordsman

[Delirium]

D-elves are only one Karma, meaning it's not too difficult to get permission to play one eventually. If I had a dollar for every terribly-played d-elf I've seen I could afford to donate enough to host Ginka for ten years. Okay, so maybe it's not that bad. But frankly, I'm with Slade.  I've seen a couple well-played ones, yes. But many, many people that I've seen playing D-elves need to read this:

http://www.armageddon.org/rp/racial/elfmisconceptions.html

and

http://www.armageddon.org/rp/racial/elven.html

Over and over and over and over again until they get it through their heads.

Argh.

Now maybe elves will actually think about how they travel, where they're travelling and hunting, and actually playing within the territory of their tribe. And no, that territory is not the entire Tablelands. The Tablelands are FULL of elven AND human nomadic tribes.

I'm sorry if I sound bitter, but I've just experienced too many desert elves that think just because you're at the oasis means it's okay to attack you for no other reason than just that (what about all the other VNPCs that are at the oasis, human and elven both? Huh?), and then having them run away when they get a few severe blows to the neck and head, and then you running into them less than 10 RL minutes later fighting a group of skeet.

[Callisto]

If I had a dollar for every terribly-played d-elf I've seen I could afford to donate enough to host Ginka for ten years. Okay, so maybe it's not that bad.

No, it is that bad. No need to pull punches on the issue, either.. the only problem that was worse in terms of poor racial role-play was the sick number of twink muls the game used to have.

Ummm ... I thought that desert elf is a karma race, so ... twinks shouldn't even be getting this race, should they?

You would have to be woefully ignorant to think the karma system is succeeding in keeping restricted races and classes out of the hands of twinks. In the last year I can count the number of believable d-elves I've encounters on one hand.

EvilRoeSlade hit the mark pretty well. It will go a long way in making twinks less interested in d-elves - without taking too much away. Just enough to sour the milk, so to speak.

[Sliptippy]

I have a few questions about the movement changes, just to put things into perspective.  If somone in the know can answer them, much appreciate it.

Given the changes in movement for desert elves, has movement for mounted kanks/inix also changed?  In prior characters, a mounted rider could make it to the south gate of Tuluk to the span without having to rest the kank.  I'm thinking that a desert elf with little encumberance cannot make that distance now.  Sorry if that was sharing too much but it's the only reference for distance I got.  Have other non-elven races had their movement changed to reflect this change relative to a desert elf?

Let's face it.  There are players out there who HUNT elves as well as elves who raid.  This will cut down on the raiding elves who lurk on roads out of their territory, blast those dastardly raiding elves.  Is it the intention of the staff to restrict desert elves to the tablelands and the blackwing outpost?  That is a bit more fesiable to accept than the drastic cut in movement to offset the 'double dipping'.  

The way it seems now, there are two maybe three player run tribe, maybe more like two.  If you are a tribal elf that's not one of those two to three elf tribes of the tablelands, how did you get there?  If you come from the plains or barrens or forests, why the heck would you run to a strange elf outpost in a strange terrain away from your kinfolk, alone?  The cultural background required for desert elf backgrounds, kinda seems like lip service now.  Why bother playing a culture when survival and assimilation into a closer tribe is more practical as a player.

To resolve the conflicts of above: Will there be more starting points for desert elves?  There are 'elf spots' in other places, will those become options for elves who do not wish to pop up in the tablelands?

To Delirium: Yes, elven tribes stick to a territory.  The tableland elves and all others that belong there (read: not you) seem to have some sort of agreement not to attack one another.   So you coming in and drinking their water and hunting their game now is quite literally taking food and water out of their tribe's mouths.  Bad enough they have to compete with each other for food and water, but here you come, an outsider (oh yeah, read up on what elves think of those outside their tribe) killing off game and making them starve.  Of course, a generous donation from you (or your corpse) will usually overlook this matter.  

On a practical side, adventuring elves (which all player elves fall into at one point or another) do go to other places.  Dark Sun (that game we're not supposed to reference) makes a point that the adventuring desert elf will go home and offer gifts to the chief and other tribal elfy things.  They even make *gasps* friends outside of their tribe and adventure with them  :shock:   But that's the tabletop version.

I have a feeling that this might be a knee-jerk reaction to something that occured in the past.  Since it's the past, it's now a moot subject.  A question to the immortal staff, was this decision made to resolve a player issue or a code issue?  

[The Lonely Hunter]

Well, from the way it sounds d-elves got their balls choped off. Some seem happy because it will 'turn the twinks away' but what about the players that arnt twinks? The change sounds like it was a bit...overboard.

And by the way, may I see your RP badge please? I agree there have been some poorly played d-elves but...who the hell are we to judge? Do we know their backgrounds and thoughts?

A shame indeed.

[Forest Junkie]

I cannot believe this...I have tried to play every d-elf that I have had to the best of my ability, and now it seems like the message I'm getting is that I am not trusted by the staff...I have to agree with Lonely Hunter on this issue, also.

P.S. Will the staff PLEASE post on this thread, since I would really like to see their reasoning for doing this?

P.S.S. What about all of the tribeless elves who are nomadic and wanderers? Can't be much of a wanderer now, eh?

[Hot_Dancer]

We can barely get out of home base now without needing to rest. I'm not against a change to d-elf stamina but it makes isolated groups who don't live in the 1 stamina point per room Grasslands unplayable as it is now.

It needs to be tinkered with.

Hot_Dancer

[EvilRoeSlade]

P.S.S. What about all of the tribeless elves who are nomadic and wanderers? Can't be much of a wanderer now, eh?

Since desert elves aren't supposed to be tribeless wanderers, I don't think this will be too much of a problem.  A half-elf would make a much more suitable tribeless wanderer.

[Forest Junkie]

There ARE tribeless elven wanderers thought, that's the problem...Also, why can't there be any? Suppose you our found to be a magicker by your tribe, who despises magickers? Or, suppose you kill a tribal elder in a bloody dispute over leadership and are exiled? It is not wrong IMHO to have tribeless d-elfs once in a while. But, I am not trying to use that as an excuse to run across the entire world, believe me.

I DO see why the stamina would be dropped, but why so low!!?? Could not a happy medium be met? Also, to anyone who may feel a bit twinkish about running across the known worlds with a tribal elf, should you not be punished by taking away that karma point? Wouldn't that be more acceptable instead of punishing those who try to abide by the rules? I think so, yet I am not a staff member, so take my opinion as a grain of salt...

[Dyrinis]

From DE Misconceptions:
The movement of elven tribes is probably better described as semi-nomadic. They will typically claim a region of the world (ie Tablelands, scrub lands, grasslands, Grey Forest, Red Desert, etc) where they're familiar with the fauna, the neighbors, and the terrain, and stay there. Within that region, their movements may be percieved as nomadic to an outsider, but in reality are probably much more ritualistic, depending on the tribe.

Desert elves are territorial. Once a tribe picks a territory, members of that tribe don't usually leave the area without a good reason, just like most humans spend their entire lives in the city of their choice. These territories might be pretty big, but they're usually restricted to one region, such as the grasslands, the Red desert, or the tablelands.

Once a tribe settles comfortably in a territory, they will often remain only semi-nomadic within that large space, moving their camp about a specified region on a regular basis. A tribe of elves may very well move their camp from one side of the grasslands to another on a seasonal basis, but long moves from one end of the known world to the other are very rare and often only inspired by war or other genocidal events. Also, elves will rarely leave their tribal grounds, as the tribe is looked upon for safety. The further an elf travels from his or her "stomping ground" the more danger they percieve themselves to be in.

I was on IRC last night and the only solid argument I heard against this change was that because there are such a small amount of rest areas in DE territory, elves can no longer travel between them safely.  To these people I would say: consolidate, or make your routes more realistic.  Every other point that has been raised seems have its roots largely in the grievance people feel whenever a change goes in that affects them negatively.  I would say give yourself two months or so to adapt and see if it really changes gameplay that much.  

No, you can't run from Tuluk to the outpost to Luir's to Tuluk in one fell swoop anymore.  Yes, you still have one of the highest speeds and one of the highest efficiencies of any race in the game.  No, you aren't as wussy in humans in the desert, a question asked repeatedly in IRC last night.  Yes, you will have to stick together more to travel across tough terrain.  No, this change wasn't targeted at people who play DEs correctly, nor does it affect them severely.  Yes, this was targeted at "tribeless" desert elves with little regard for territory, and at people who use the race as a land rover.

I would say to the SLK and other tribes that this change in fact benefits you, because it will make membership a more valuable thing.  Other people seem to raise concerns like "we won't be able to enjoy the hunt anymore."  If your enjoyment of hunting comes only because you know you will be able to get away in any circumstance, you should reasess your reasons for playing a DE.  This is all we have changed.  Further, you will still be able to enjoy this simple pleasure -- you'll just have to hunt things appropriate to the difficulty you seem to favor, like jozhal and durrit.  We've just removed your safety net when hunting anakore and gith, which shouldn't have been there in the first place.

We haven't taken away your ability to emote when hunting, to group up, to sneak and hide (as one person claimed), or to enjoy your massive speed and efficiency bonuses.   The new Tablelands also favors DE's in a big way.  If you're able to learn the terrain, as the documentation suggests, you'll have a large advantage over the misfortunates who don't.  Lastly, I'd really suggest joining one of the player-run tribes if you are a DE.  They are well-run, attract sizeable quests, and now provide you with what you need to continue your customary dominance of the desert.  

Dyrinis
:twisted:

[Angela Christine]

P.S. Will the staff PLEASE post on this thread, since I would really like to see their reasoning for doing this?

I'm not an imm but there was something in the weekly update about this, for those who don't subscribe to it:

Elf/desert elf MP bonuses lowered. This is because elves already
get a lower cost of movement compared to other races, so they
were effectively double dipping. Also movement points are now
used for a lot more than movement (the way is a good example) so
it wasn't appropriate for them to get such large bonuses.
(Nessalin)

I guess that makes sense, to some extent.  A very specialized physical development that lets you glide accross the dunes should not make it easier to forage, chop down trees, or climb up cliffs because elves have no special upper body strength.  So if they wanted to cut off the double dipping, choosing to lower movement points probably made more sense than taking away the running bonus.  

I'm not playing a d-elf at the moment so I don't know how sever the change is.  They may end up ratcheting it back a little, they have before.  When cleaning was first introduced, every item you owned would get dusty from taking one step outdoors, and then each item had to be cleaned individually -- no "clean self."  I had a cleanish character at the time, and typing clean earring dust, clean left earring dust, clean shirt dust, clean boots dust, etc. a dozen times a day was painful.  Then some merciful imm created "clean self" towipe the dust from your whole body, and made it so some wear locations do not get sweaty.

P.S.S. What about all of the tribeless elves who are nomadic and wanderers? Can't be much of a wanderer now, eh?

As for tribeless wanderers, there are things you can do to improve your lot in life.  With lower stamina it may actually be feasable to use a pack animal to carry your heavy stuff; having your kank colapse from exhaustion while you still had 150 movement points sucked.  If you start using a pack animal you will be able to carry more on each trip, so even if the lower movement means you don't take as many trips things should come out about even.  Maybe they will add a new mount type, some specially bred blackwing kank perhaps, that can run like an elf.  

You can also decide if you are a runner or a fighter, and if you are a runner, choose appropriate clothing.  It is easy to get about 50 extra movement points just by wearing the right clothes, those clothes don't have much armor value, but elves generally rely more on their super agility dodging ability than their armor anyway.  With higher base movement it wasn't worthwhile for most elves to wear the light sandcloth garb available in the elven outpost, but now that extra 40-50 movement points can really mean something.  I've gotten close to 200 movement with a half-elf, so it should work for elves too.

AC

[Anonymous]

I don't like this change because Delfs can't ride kanks.

I find it less believeable now that Delfs, as a culture, would eschew using kanks when tribal societies have, IMHO, a prediliction towards incorporating pragmatism in the structure of their belief systems and prejudices.

With Delf stamina suddenly dropped, I find it less likely that tribes would have, a long time ago, decided that using kanks was for weaklings when a kank would enable you to not only flee further from an aggressor but also give you an increased hunting range, something useful in a mostly barren land.

Its kinda like a tribe of humans deciding that anyone who ate readily available roots or fruits was inferior.  People have a habit of justifying what keeps them alive.

Now running down a desert elf is a simple matter, and they have no recourse, something that either would have been addressed by the culture earlier in its creation or would have resulted in their eventual destruction.

[Carnage]

This is starting to bother me, because people are being damn thick-headed.

DESERT ELVES WERE BROKEN. Is that hard to understand? They were getting a massive stamina boost AND used less stamina to get around then anyone else. An unintended bug was fixed. Not to mention the fact that this incredible amount of stamina could and was abused to allow them to chop down multiple trees without even getting exhausted. It was a bug and it was being misued and it was corrected.

D-elves can't run from Tuluk to Allanak now. Boo-hoo. Run to Luir's, take a break, then run to Allanak. Where's the trouble? How many of you are even playing desert elves right now? Those people who haven't felt the effects shouldn't be complaining.

A change was made because there was a bug. Stop complaining now that something is working as intended.

[Forest Junkie]

No offense to the staff, but chopping d-elf mp by HALF seems a bit too much. Also, I do agree with Dyrinis that this cut in mp will help pc-run tribes with increased membership, but isn't this sort of FORCING others to join together, instead of letting them mold their pc into what they may desire? Just a thought...

Also, I do not enjoy the hunt for the simple fact that I know I can always run if I need to(thats would be just plain stupid of me if I thought like that). I merely love the fact that I can RUN through the desert, as my ancestors did before me, hunting for my tribe, providing sustenance for those in need.

P.S. How will this drastic cut in mp be explained IC'lly, seeing as how us Runners don't actually get to "run" that much anymore? Did d-elfs become weaker through their years of staying in one place? Was there a sickness? De-evolution?(just a thought;)) Just wondering how I should rp my current pc's seemingly lack of energy recently...

[Lazloth]

How will this drastic cut in mp be explained IC'lly, seeing as how us Runners don't actually get to "run" that much anymore? Did d-elfs become weaker through their years of staying in one place? Was there a sickness? De-evolution?(just a thought;)) Just wondering how I should rp my current pc's seemingly lack of energy recently...

Perhaps you will fondly recall the times when you ran ~100 leagues without pausing to breathe as simply a mental episode attributed to smoking too much of the green stuff.

As Dyrinis suggested, give it some time.  Yes, we as a community are now aware that the delf players are irate; task accomplished.

[Exhausted D-Elf!!!]

Why, oh why do I feel the classic phrase is about to be uttered???

I can see it now....*the rp gods of the player base utter in Sirihish: "Suck it up and conform biatch, us humans rule now because our kanks can out run your sorry elven asses!!!"*

[Sliptippy]

Dyrinis, are you saying the staff push/influence now is have player charcters who make desert elves be a part of the player tribes that are around?    Bluntly put, what if I don't want to be a Soh elf (as HD put a imm-supported clan)?

[Callisto]

Sounds like a broken record to me.

Maybe I'm missing something, being half asleep as I am, but so far the only point being made that didn't boil down to people complaining about losing a huge advantage was Hot Dancers point about tribes having trouble moving around in rough terrain. While a good point, it wouldn't be so much of a problem if d-elf tribes didn't look to control massive sections of the game world and instead chose a more realistic area within the area to control. Lets face it, it takes that many soldiers to patrol the farming villages and Allanak, yet a handful of a hundred elves can control the entire tablelands or grasslands? Guess its time to pack it up and find an easier area to control, or maybe just focus on controling a more realistic section of the current one.

However, I do feel for the lone d-elf players out there as well. The whole deal of having to stop and rest once in a while is going to severely hamper their ability to run back and forth across the known world in a single day looking to find and sell all kinds of goods in search of coin, I mean I know how important it is for desert elves to gain enough coin to visit the Salarri show-room and buy a whole bunch of super-l33t weapons.

And lets face it, no longer will those brave and selfless bastions of elven goodness be able to attack anything and everything with absolute impunity, knowing full well they will be able to flee across the known world in the blink of an eye. The world is going to be a lot more dangerous now that all those lesser beings they so carelessly attacked and insulted can now have a reasonable chance of hunting them down and killing them for it. Looks like its time to start backing up that shit talk, or just stop talking it.

Well biatch(s), suck it up, looks like the cake walks over.

[creeper386]

Theres one problem. Kanks can still go from Allanak to Tuluk or nearly that without a rest, but now delves can't? Now I understand they shouldn't, but I don't think kanks should either. And I swear someone responded that kanks were allowed that for playability issues so you don't get stuck out someplace. Well now if your a delf and your not a ranger you can be getting stuck out someplace, and I don't think every delf should have to be a ranger or anything.

Some people say thats part of the game? Well make it so kanks have less troubles. I thought ICally in the world it was supposed to be that an elf could out distance a kank... But now if any human on a kank can move further then an elf... Thats not that cool. And gives any mount rider a big advantage. Maybe they elf can out distance the kank for sometime but it seems alittle odd, and out weighs things for mount riders.

Now, As I said I haven't played a delf, not playing one now. So I'm not for or against anything. I'd give the other side of the issue as well but I feel the weekly update as well as the info when you log in was quite clear, and understand the delf documents so wouldn't be much reason to repeat that. Just trying to throw things out there.

Creeper

[The Lonely Hunter]

Yet again I hear the 'it stops twinks' argument...wouldnt monitoring the d-elf karma and who is allowed to have it be a bit of a better step?

I think Mr. Woods sums it up pretty good.

[Angela Christine]

Theres one problem. Kanks can still go from Allanak to Tuluk or nearly that without a rest, but now delves can't? Now I understand they shouldn't, but I don't think kanks should either. And I swear someone responded that kanks were allowed that for playability issues so you don't get stuck out someplace. Well now if your a delf and your not a ranger you can be getting stuck out someplace, and I don't think every delf should have to be a ranger or anything.

Some people say thats part of the game? Well make it so kanks have less troubles. I thought ICally in the world it was supposed to be that an elf could out distance a kank... But now if any human on a kank can move further then an elf... Thats not that cool. And gives any mount rider a big advantage. Maybe they elf can out distance the kank for sometime but it seems alittle odd, and out weighs things for mount riders.

A kank will probably be able to out-walk an elf now.  Since I'm not playing a d-elf at the moment I can't test it, but an elf may still be able to out run a kank.  Kanks aren't great runners.  Regardless, I'm sure elves can still out run the war beetles, sunback lizards, erdlu, horses, inixes, and whatever other non-kank beasts are out there.

I don't know if elves were supposed to be able to go farther than kanks.  Elves are basically humanoid, kanks are giant insectoids.  Our insects in RL are tiny, but proportionally they are just plain better than us physically.  Thank goodness we are huge, or ants would own us.  Seriously, opposible thumbs would be no help at all.  

Elves still have some advantages over riders.  Most wilderness save areas are inaccessable to mounts, so a non-ranger rider has more trouble finding a safe quit room than an elf does.  Likewise, most of the sheltered locations that let you regenerate in a resonable amount of time are not accessable to kanks, so if you planned poorly and your kank gets overtired you can be waiting a loooong time for him to regenerate out in the desert.  And elves can still dual wield or use a weapon and shield all the time, something that very few riders are able to do.

AC