Desert elf movement change..

[Hot_Dancer]

I think it was a little too severe up front, a reduce to an average of 200-250 would be more playable. Right now, an isolated group of d-elves who live in rough terrain is in for an unreasonably tough time. It's going to hinder my tribe big time...

Also, if the change isn't tinkered with will city elves be made able run as well?

Hot_Dancer

[The Lonely Hunter]

As I'm not an elf right now I can't speak from first hand but I have a feeling that outridding a group of angry elves is going to be a lot easier...unless they lay it all down and get their own kanks heh.

[EvilRoeSlade]

I think that the reasons for the change are clear, and the immortals do have a point.  You won't be able to run across the known world and back anymore, but you can still function without kanks.

I personally like the changes.  It will discourage city elves from playing roles that aren't city oriented, and it will make desert elves less appealing to twinks.

[creeper386]

Ooh, Hmm... Probably means it's going to be alot longer untill I try a desert elf... Maybe it'd make kanks as pack animals more useful? I don't know... But when I heard people barely making it out in tough terrain when they had alot of stamina I'd hate to see it after the stamina has been drastically cut.

Creeper who hasn't played a delf but also feels it might be bad from what he's heard in his research of maybe playing one.

[Swordsman]

EvilRoeSlade: "It will discourage city elves from playing roles that aren't city oriented, and it will make desert elves less appealing to twinks." Ummm ... I thought that desert elf is a karma race, so ... twinks shouldn't even be getting this race, should they? And if someone does get desert elf and is found to be a twink, then they'd lose the option? Just musing (not being sarcastic or anything).

Swordsman

[Delirium]

D-elves are only one Karma, meaning it's not too difficult to get permission to play one eventually. If I had a dollar for every terribly-played d-elf I've seen I could afford to donate enough to host Ginka for ten years. Okay, so maybe it's not that bad. But frankly, I'm with Slade.  I've seen a couple well-played ones, yes. But many, many people that I've seen playing D-elves need to read this:

http://www.armageddon.org/rp/racial/elfmisconceptions.html

and

http://www.armageddon.org/rp/racial/elven.html

Over and over and over and over again until they get it through their heads.

Argh.

Now maybe elves will actually think about how they travel, where they're travelling and hunting, and actually playing within the territory of their tribe. And no, that territory is not the entire Tablelands. The Tablelands are FULL of elven AND human nomadic tribes.

I'm sorry if I sound bitter, but I've just experienced too many desert elves that think just because you're at the oasis means it's okay to attack you for no other reason than just that (what about all the other VNPCs that are at the oasis, human and elven both? Huh?), and then having them run away when they get a few severe blows to the neck and head, and then you running into them less than 10 RL minutes later fighting a group of skeet.

[Callisto]

If I had a dollar for every terribly-played d-elf I've seen I could afford to donate enough to host Ginka for ten years. Okay, so maybe it's not that bad.

No, it is that bad. No need to pull punches on the issue, either.. the only problem that was worse in terms of poor racial role-play was the sick number of twink muls the game used to have.

Ummm ... I thought that desert elf is a karma race, so ... twinks shouldn't even be getting this race, should they?

You would have to be woefully ignorant to think the karma system is succeeding in keeping restricted races and classes out of the hands of twinks. In the last year I can count the number of believable d-elves I've encounters on one hand.

EvilRoeSlade hit the mark pretty well. It will go a long way in making twinks less interested in d-elves - without taking too much away. Just enough to sour the milk, so to speak.

[Sliptippy]

I have a few questions about the movement changes, just to put things into perspective.  If somone in the know can answer them, much appreciate it.

Given the changes in movement for desert elves, has movement for mounted kanks/inix also changed?  In prior characters, a mounted rider could make it to the south gate of Tuluk to the span without having to rest the kank.  I'm thinking that a desert elf with little encumberance cannot make that distance now.  Sorry if that was sharing too much but it's the only reference for distance I got.  Have other non-elven races had their movement changed to reflect this change relative to a desert elf?

Let's face it.  There are players out there who HUNT elves as well as elves who raid.  This will cut down on the raiding elves who lurk on roads out of their territory, blast those dastardly raiding elves.  Is it the intention of the staff to restrict desert elves to the tablelands and the blackwing outpost?  That is a bit more fesiable to accept than the drastic cut in movement to offset the 'double dipping'.  

The way it seems now, there are two maybe three player run tribe, maybe more like two.  If you are a tribal elf that's not one of those two to three elf tribes of the tablelands, how did you get there?  If you come from the plains or barrens or forests, why the heck would you run to a strange elf outpost in a strange terrain away from your kinfolk, alone?  The cultural background required for desert elf backgrounds, kinda seems like lip service now.  Why bother playing a culture when survival and assimilation into a closer tribe is more practical as a player.

To resolve the conflicts of above: Will there be more starting points for desert elves?  There are 'elf spots' in other places, will those become options for elves who do not wish to pop up in the tablelands?

To Delirium: Yes, elven tribes stick to a territory.  The tableland elves and all others that belong there (read: not you) seem to have some sort of agreement not to attack one another.   So you coming in and drinking their water and hunting their game now is quite literally taking food and water out of their tribe's mouths.  Bad enough they have to compete with each other for food and water, but here you come, an outsider (oh yeah, read up on what elves think of those outside their tribe) killing off game and making them starve.  Of course, a generous donation from you (or your corpse) will usually overlook this matter.  

On a practical side, adventuring elves (which all player elves fall into at one point or another) do go to other places.  Dark Sun (that game we're not supposed to reference) makes a point that the adventuring desert elf will go home and offer gifts to the chief and other tribal elfy things.  They even make *gasps* friends outside of their tribe and adventure with them  :shock:   But that's the tabletop version.

I have a feeling that this might be a knee-jerk reaction to something that occured in the past.  Since it's the past, it's now a moot subject.  A question to the immortal staff, was this decision made to resolve a player issue or a code issue?  

[The Lonely Hunter]

Well, from the way it sounds d-elves got their balls choped off. Some seem happy because it will 'turn the twinks away' but what about the players that arnt twinks? The change sounds like it was a bit...overboard.

And by the way, may I see your RP badge please? I agree there have been some poorly played d-elves but...who the hell are we to judge? Do we know their backgrounds and thoughts?

A shame indeed.

[Forest Junkie]

I cannot believe this...I have tried to play every d-elf that I have had to the best of my ability, and now it seems like the message I'm getting is that I am not trusted by the staff...I have to agree with Lonely Hunter on this issue, also.

P.S. Will the staff PLEASE post on this thread, since I would really like to see their reasoning for doing this?

P.S.S. What about all of the tribeless elves who are nomadic and wanderers? Can't be much of a wanderer now, eh?

[Hot_Dancer]

We can barely get out of home base now without needing to rest. I'm not against a change to d-elf stamina but it makes isolated groups who don't live in the 1 stamina point per room Grasslands unplayable as it is now.

It needs to be tinkered with.

Hot_Dancer

[EvilRoeSlade]

P.S.S. What about all of the tribeless elves who are nomadic and wanderers? Can't be much of a wanderer now, eh?

Since desert elves aren't supposed to be tribeless wanderers, I don't think this will be too much of a problem.  A half-elf would make a much more suitable tribeless wanderer.

[Forest Junkie]

There ARE tribeless elven wanderers thought, that's the problem...Also, why can't there be any? Suppose you our found to be a magicker by your tribe, who despises magickers? Or, suppose you kill a tribal elder in a bloody dispute over leadership and are exiled? It is not wrong IMHO to have tribeless d-elfs once in a while. But, I am not trying to use that as an excuse to run across the entire world, believe me.

I DO see why the stamina would be dropped, but why so low!!?? Could not a happy medium be met? Also, to anyone who may feel a bit twinkish about running across the known worlds with a tribal elf, should you not be punished by taking away that karma point? Wouldn't that be more acceptable instead of punishing those who try to abide by the rules? I think so, yet I am not a staff member, so take my opinion as a grain of salt...

[Dyrinis]

From DE Misconceptions:
The movement of elven tribes is probably better described as semi-nomadic. They will typically claim a region of the world (ie Tablelands, scrub lands, grasslands, Grey Forest, Red Desert, etc) where they're familiar with the fauna, the neighbors, and the terrain, and stay there. Within that region, their movements may be percieved as nomadic to an outsider, but in reality are probably much more ritualistic, depending on the tribe.

Desert elves are territorial. Once a tribe picks a territory, members of that tribe don't usually leave the area without a good reason, just like most humans spend their entire lives in the city of their choice. These territories might be pretty big, but they're usually restricted to one region, such as the grasslands, the Red desert, or the tablelands.

Once a tribe settles comfortably in a territory, they will often remain only semi-nomadic within that large space, moving their camp about a specified region on a regular basis. A tribe of elves may very well move their camp from one side of the grasslands to another on a seasonal basis, but long moves from one end of the known world to the other are very rare and often only inspired by war or other genocidal events. Also, elves will rarely leave their tribal grounds, as the tribe is looked upon for safety. The further an elf travels from his or her "stomping ground" the more danger they percieve themselves to be in.

I was on IRC last night and the only solid argument I heard against this change was that because there are such a small amount of rest areas in DE territory, elves can no longer travel between them safely.  To these people I would say: consolidate, or make your routes more realistic.  Every other point that has been raised seems have its roots largely in the grievance people feel whenever a change goes in that affects them negatively.  I would say give yourself two months or so to adapt and see if it really changes gameplay that much.  

No, you can't run from Tuluk to the outpost to Luir's to Tuluk in one fell swoop anymore.  Yes, you still have one of the highest speeds and one of the highest efficiencies of any race in the game.  No, you aren't as wussy in humans in the desert, a question asked repeatedly in IRC last night.  Yes, you will have to stick together more to travel across tough terrain.  No, this change wasn't targeted at people who play DEs correctly, nor does it affect them severely.  Yes, this was targeted at "tribeless" desert elves with little regard for territory, and at people who use the race as a land rover.

I would say to the SLK and other tribes that this change in fact benefits you, because it will make membership a more valuable thing.  Other people seem to raise concerns like "we won't be able to enjoy the hunt anymore."  If your enjoyment of hunting comes only because you know you will be able to get away in any circumstance, you should reasess your reasons for playing a DE.  This is all we have changed.  Further, you will still be able to enjoy this simple pleasure -- you'll just have to hunt things appropriate to the difficulty you seem to favor, like jozhal and durrit.  We've just removed your safety net when hunting anakore and gith, which shouldn't have been there in the first place.

We haven't taken away your ability to emote when hunting, to group up, to sneak and hide (as one person claimed), or to enjoy your massive speed and efficiency bonuses.   The new Tablelands also favors DE's in a big way.  If you're able to learn the terrain, as the documentation suggests, you'll have a large advantage over the misfortunates who don't.  Lastly, I'd really suggest joining one of the player-run tribes if you are a DE.  They are well-run, attract sizeable quests, and now provide you with what you need to continue your customary dominance of the desert.  

Dyrinis
:twisted:

[Angela Christine]

P.S. Will the staff PLEASE post on this thread, since I would really like to see their reasoning for doing this?

I'm not an imm but there was something in the weekly update about this, for those who don't subscribe to it:

Elf/desert elf MP bonuses lowered. This is because elves already
get a lower cost of movement compared to other races, so they
were effectively double dipping. Also movement points are now
used for a lot more than movement (the way is a good example) so
it wasn't appropriate for them to get such large bonuses.
(Nessalin)

I guess that makes sense, to some extent.  A very specialized physical development that lets you glide accross the dunes should not make it easier to forage, chop down trees, or climb up cliffs because elves have no special upper body strength.  So if they wanted to cut off the double dipping, choosing to lower movement points probably made more sense than taking away the running bonus.  

I'm not playing a d-elf at the moment so I don't know how sever the change is.  They may end up ratcheting it back a little, they have before.  When cleaning was first introduced, every item you owned would get dusty from taking one step outdoors, and then each item had to be cleaned individually -- no "clean self."  I had a cleanish character at the time, and typing clean earring dust, clean left earring dust, clean shirt dust, clean boots dust, etc. a dozen times a day was painful.  Then some merciful imm created "clean self" towipe the dust from your whole body, and made it so some wear locations do not get sweaty.

P.S.S. What about all of the tribeless elves who are nomadic and wanderers? Can't be much of a wanderer now, eh?

As for tribeless wanderers, there are things you can do to improve your lot in life.  With lower stamina it may actually be feasable to use a pack animal to carry your heavy stuff; having your kank colapse from exhaustion while you still had 150 movement points sucked.  If you start using a pack animal you will be able to carry more on each trip, so even if the lower movement means you don't take as many trips things should come out about even.  Maybe they will add a new mount type, some specially bred blackwing kank perhaps, that can run like an elf.  

You can also decide if you are a runner or a fighter, and if you are a runner, choose appropriate clothing.  It is easy to get about 50 extra movement points just by wearing the right clothes, those clothes don't have much armor value, but elves generally rely more on their super agility dodging ability than their armor anyway.  With higher base movement it wasn't worthwhile for most elves to wear the light sandcloth garb available in the elven outpost, but now that extra 40-50 movement points can really mean something.  I've gotten close to 200 movement with a half-elf, so it should work for elves too.

AC

[Anonymous]

I don't like this change because Delfs can't ride kanks.

I find it less believeable now that Delfs, as a culture, would eschew using kanks when tribal societies have, IMHO, a prediliction towards incorporating pragmatism in the structure of their belief systems and prejudices.

With Delf stamina suddenly dropped, I find it less likely that tribes would have, a long time ago, decided that using kanks was for weaklings when a kank would enable you to not only flee further from an aggressor but also give you an increased hunting range, something useful in a mostly barren land.

Its kinda like a tribe of humans deciding that anyone who ate readily available roots or fruits was inferior.  People have a habit of justifying what keeps them alive.

Now running down a desert elf is a simple matter, and they have no recourse, something that either would have been addressed by the culture earlier in its creation or would have resulted in their eventual destruction.

[Carnage]

This is starting to bother me, because people are being damn thick-headed.

DESERT ELVES WERE BROKEN. Is that hard to understand? They were getting a massive stamina boost AND used less stamina to get around then anyone else. An unintended bug was fixed. Not to mention the fact that this incredible amount of stamina could and was abused to allow them to chop down multiple trees without even getting exhausted. It was a bug and it was being misued and it was corrected.

D-elves can't run from Tuluk to Allanak now. Boo-hoo. Run to Luir's, take a break, then run to Allanak. Where's the trouble? How many of you are even playing desert elves right now? Those people who haven't felt the effects shouldn't be complaining.

A change was made because there was a bug. Stop complaining now that something is working as intended.

[Forest Junkie]

No offense to the staff, but chopping d-elf mp by HALF seems a bit too much. Also, I do agree with Dyrinis that this cut in mp will help pc-run tribes with increased membership, but isn't this sort of FORCING others to join together, instead of letting them mold their pc into what they may desire? Just a thought...

Also, I do not enjoy the hunt for the simple fact that I know I can always run if I need to(thats would be just plain stupid of me if I thought like that). I merely love the fact that I can RUN through the desert, as my ancestors did before me, hunting for my tribe, providing sustenance for those in need.

P.S. How will this drastic cut in mp be explained IC'lly, seeing as how us Runners don't actually get to "run" that much anymore? Did d-elfs become weaker through their years of staying in one place? Was there a sickness? De-evolution?(just a thought;)) Just wondering how I should rp my current pc's seemingly lack of energy recently...

[Lazloth]

How will this drastic cut in mp be explained IC'lly, seeing as how us Runners don't actually get to "run" that much anymore? Did d-elfs become weaker through their years of staying in one place? Was there a sickness? De-evolution?(just a thought;)) Just wondering how I should rp my current pc's seemingly lack of energy recently...

Perhaps you will fondly recall the times when you ran ~100 leagues without pausing to breathe as simply a mental episode attributed to smoking too much of the green stuff.

As Dyrinis suggested, give it some time.  Yes, we as a community are now aware that the delf players are irate; task accomplished.

[Exhausted D-Elf!!!]

Why, oh why do I feel the classic phrase is about to be uttered???

I can see it now....*the rp gods of the player base utter in Sirihish: "Suck it up and conform biatch, us humans rule now because our kanks can out run your sorry elven asses!!!"*

[Sliptippy]

Dyrinis, are you saying the staff push/influence now is have player charcters who make desert elves be a part of the player tribes that are around?    Bluntly put, what if I don't want to be a Soh elf (as HD put a imm-supported clan)?

[Callisto]

Sounds like a broken record to me.

Maybe I'm missing something, being half asleep as I am, but so far the only point being made that didn't boil down to people complaining about losing a huge advantage was Hot Dancers point about tribes having trouble moving around in rough terrain. While a good point, it wouldn't be so much of a problem if d-elf tribes didn't look to control massive sections of the game world and instead chose a more realistic area within the area to control. Lets face it, it takes that many soldiers to patrol the farming villages and Allanak, yet a handful of a hundred elves can control the entire tablelands or grasslands? Guess its time to pack it up and find an easier area to control, or maybe just focus on controling a more realistic section of the current one.

However, I do feel for the lone d-elf players out there as well. The whole deal of having to stop and rest once in a while is going to severely hamper their ability to run back and forth across the known world in a single day looking to find and sell all kinds of goods in search of coin, I mean I know how important it is for desert elves to gain enough coin to visit the Salarri show-room and buy a whole bunch of super-l33t weapons.

And lets face it, no longer will those brave and selfless bastions of elven goodness be able to attack anything and everything with absolute impunity, knowing full well they will be able to flee across the known world in the blink of an eye. The world is going to be a lot more dangerous now that all those lesser beings they so carelessly attacked and insulted can now have a reasonable chance of hunting them down and killing them for it. Looks like its time to start backing up that shit talk, or just stop talking it.

Well biatch(s), suck it up, looks like the cake walks over.

[creeper386]

Theres one problem. Kanks can still go from Allanak to Tuluk or nearly that without a rest, but now delves can't? Now I understand they shouldn't, but I don't think kanks should either. And I swear someone responded that kanks were allowed that for playability issues so you don't get stuck out someplace. Well now if your a delf and your not a ranger you can be getting stuck out someplace, and I don't think every delf should have to be a ranger or anything.

Some people say thats part of the game? Well make it so kanks have less troubles. I thought ICally in the world it was supposed to be that an elf could out distance a kank... But now if any human on a kank can move further then an elf... Thats not that cool. And gives any mount rider a big advantage. Maybe they elf can out distance the kank for sometime but it seems alittle odd, and out weighs things for mount riders.

Now, As I said I haven't played a delf, not playing one now. So I'm not for or against anything. I'd give the other side of the issue as well but I feel the weekly update as well as the info when you log in was quite clear, and understand the delf documents so wouldn't be much reason to repeat that. Just trying to throw things out there.

Creeper

[The Lonely Hunter]

Yet again I hear the 'it stops twinks' argument...wouldnt monitoring the d-elf karma and who is allowed to have it be a bit of a better step?

I think Mr. Woods sums it up pretty good.

[Angela Christine]

Theres one problem. Kanks can still go from Allanak to Tuluk or nearly that without a rest, but now delves can't? Now I understand they shouldn't, but I don't think kanks should either. And I swear someone responded that kanks were allowed that for playability issues so you don't get stuck out someplace. Well now if your a delf and your not a ranger you can be getting stuck out someplace, and I don't think every delf should have to be a ranger or anything.

Some people say thats part of the game? Well make it so kanks have less troubles. I thought ICally in the world it was supposed to be that an elf could out distance a kank... But now if any human on a kank can move further then an elf... Thats not that cool. And gives any mount rider a big advantage. Maybe they elf can out distance the kank for sometime but it seems alittle odd, and out weighs things for mount riders.

A kank will probably be able to out-walk an elf now.  Since I'm not playing a d-elf at the moment I can't test it, but an elf may still be able to out run a kank.  Kanks aren't great runners.  Regardless, I'm sure elves can still out run the war beetles, sunback lizards, erdlu, horses, inixes, and whatever other non-kank beasts are out there.

I don't know if elves were supposed to be able to go farther than kanks.  Elves are basically humanoid, kanks are giant insectoids.  Our insects in RL are tiny, but proportionally they are just plain better than us physically.  Thank goodness we are huge, or ants would own us.  Seriously, opposible thumbs would be no help at all.  

Elves still have some advantages over riders.  Most wilderness save areas are inaccessable to mounts, so a non-ranger rider has more trouble finding a safe quit room than an elf does.  Likewise, most of the sheltered locations that let you regenerate in a resonable amount of time are not accessable to kanks, so if you planned poorly and your kank gets overtired you can be waiting a loooong time for him to regenerate out in the desert.  And elves can still dual wield or use a weapon and shield all the time, something that very few riders are able to do.

AC

[EvilRoeSlade]

Theres one problem. Kanks can still go from Allanak to Tuluk or nearly that without a rest, but now delves can't? Now I understand they shouldn't, but I don't think kanks should either.
Creeper

I personally think that desert elves shouldn't be as good at travelling as a kank.  They're still good runners, and all the code change does is make it so they aren't SUPERNATURAL runners.  I wouldn't really mind seeing kanks lose movement, as long as they could still out-perform desert elves stamina-wise.

One thing that I would like is for desert elves not to have their run bonuses in the city, just as city elves don't have their run bonuses in the desert.  To me being able to run in the city represents being able to run through crowds, perhaps after a failed steal attempt or a swindle gone horribly wrong.  This is something that a city elf would be able to do and a desert elf wouldn't, IMO.

[deviant storm]

I am the one whom Dyranis found had the most to say on Irc. Heh. Frankly, I think the d elves have been done a disservice.

Yes, I am aware they had double advantages. And yes, there were plenty of running twinks. But I feel strongly they overdid the fix, breaking the roleplay for some of us.

Now, currently I do not play a d elf. But I have in the past. And I enjoyed the roleplay experience of a tribe of a group of players mightily. We'd patrol an area that was our 'territory', hunting in that area. With occasional trips to the d elf outpost to trade and see what those 'other' elves were up to. No trips to Tuluk. Or Allanak. Just living in a little iso world.

Funnest parts were the hunting, for me. Going out, especially with an icly younger player, tracking the game, sneaking up on it, talking about the habits of this prey or that and when was the best time to hunt them. You know, like people would, if they were really living that life. I think by cutting the mv basically in half, those days are gone. Or in great peril.

I can see going out and trying it. Only to run into certain aggressive npc mobs, led out of their usual territory by some schmoe with a kank, who easily outdistances it. Leaving for us to deal with. In the past, we have. But if we don't have enough people to drop the thing, we won't be able to outrun it, now. Not after a hunt.
Sure, we can rest. But you can't guarantee you'll get the chance. It's a harsh world, suddenly made all the harder.
Yes, I know. Bug needs fixing, people can band together, etc.

Running was key to our strategy when dealing with pc hostiles too. Who can now outrun us on kanks. Maybe, as Dyranis says, we'll get terrain advantages. All I know is it was hard enough to keep a d elf alive. I'd lost at least two directly to humans in the past, and now any human with the yen to elfhunt will be able to come on some runner out resting after catching some food and pk him before he's had a chance to recover.

Yeah, suck it up. I know. Thing is, we're going to have to 'suck it up' to playing just a few small areas now. Getting even to the outpost will be a major undertaking. If you log on when no one else in your tribe then, it's really going to be super iso now. Hard enough to get people to play in a d elf tribe.

It wasn't meant as a punishment. But somehow, it sure feels like it will be the end to some very fine rp. I know the Imms were doing what they felt needed fixing, but maybe a better solution could be arrived at.

[Swordsman]

Callisto: "You would have to be woefully ignorant to think the karma system is succeeding in keeping restricted races and classes out of the hands of twinks."

Well, since I'm not a super ranger or super defiler who runs around the desert watching d. elf PCs, maybe I am woefully ignorant in this case. Do I think the karma system is perfect in keeping special guilds/races away from twinks? Not for a moment, just the same as not for a moment do I believe that everyone who should be punished (in terms of this game, like being banned, karma taken away, etc.) is punished. You just have to look back at past imm posts to see that they're a pretty merciful bunch. But that's not going to stop me mentioning what I understand the karma system as largely being there for. If nothing else, all these posts might get the imms to start tightening up on karma (like, being tougher about taking it away from people who've shown they can't be trusted). Given what people've been posting in this thread and assuming that they're in a reasonable position to make some judgement on RP appropriateness, it sounds like it might be needed. All IMO.

Swordsman

[Twilight]

I'm not playing a D-Elf currently, so I'm not sure about the exact changes, I'll wait until I next play one to make up my mind.

My initial thoughts on it are, going a normal route, if I am remembering movement costs correctly, given a human and a desert elf with equal movement points, the elf will only be able to go twice as far as the human.  Of course, the elf would be running, and the human walking, but still, this seems just wrong.  I just see a D-elf being able to far outdistance a human, three or four times as much.  Maybe they still have, I don't know what the exact change was.

The problem with most rest points is that people know where they are.  There are a few more secret ones out there, but with known rest points, you just create a choke point.  Perhaps D-Elves will learn to carry tents now more often, so they don't run into this, as far as regening moves.

[LoD]

While I have a few comments about the playability of desert elves and why I support this movement change, I'll leave that to a later date.  What I did want to suggest and get some feedback on was the possible introduction of a smaller and lighter, one-man tent for player's use in the deserts that weren't strong enough or didn't want a tent suitable for fitting 4-8 grown men.

This is an example of what I'd like to see:

Item: a small, reinforced sandcloth tent
Sdesc: A small tent made of reinforced sandcloth lay here, tightly rolled.

Wearable: back, about body, es

DESC:

Crafted from lengths of reinforced sandcloth, sewn tightly together and
fitted with a series of leather strings, this rugged tent has been fitted with
a leather strap for carrying it on one's back or about one's body during
travel in the sands.  Insewn into the fabric is a pair of leather pouches,
one containing a few carved, bone stakes while the other holds a set of
thin wooden poles.  Compact and tightly-rolled, this tent's size appears
to support no more than one humanoid comfortably.

Restrictions: Limit 1 Person

I don't see any problems with making one-man only tents because anyone can come along and break it (by attacking) so it doesn't protect the person inside, only disallows it to be used by multiple people.

Figured this might be of use for the elven and non-elven traveller alike if they want to be a loner, but don't have the strength to support the huge tents presently in the game.

-LoD

[Twilight]

Just replying to LoD, there is a tent out there (maybe more than one), that would be appropriate for a desert elf.  Don't know how many people can fit in it, but I was easily able to carry it with a desert elf.

[Anonymous]

I personally think that desert elves shouldn't be as good at travelling as a kank.  They're still good runners, and all the code change does is make it so they aren't SUPERNATURAL runners.  I wouldn't really mind seeing kanks lose movement, as long as they could still out-perform desert elves stamina-wise.

Alright, so why would desert elf culture long ago make pariahs out of those who ride kanks?  Why would they chose to not use something that would then have a positive impact on the longevity of their people?

I don't mind this change on its own.  But when a kank-mounted rider can still speed hunt and speed ride over the same terrain and catch up to a Delf who has drained his stamina, I think something is wrong.

For the record, I've seen dozens more kank-mounted riders go from Allanak to Tuluk without stopping than I have seen desert elves.

Don't nerf desert elves without nerfing kanks.  Otherwise desert elves not using kanks doesn't make sense to me.

Maybe I'm just cynical, but I look at fear of death as the ultimate proving grounds for your beliefs.  I think not just a few homophobes would suck them some pecker if it meant they would be left alive.  Same for desert elves.  A significant number would, when push comes to shove, hop onto a kank to ride to safety since it now means they could get further.

[Samoa]

I had a small idea that I just emailed along instead of posting, but I figure I may as well outline it somewhat for you guys too.  Basically, my suggestion was this:

D-elves are alloted a series of terrains.  Like, for example, desert, mountains, scrub, something like that.  A command is added for new and old d-elves alike, allowing them to set their 'native' terrain - this command may ONLY be used once.  Once used, they get their d-elf bonuses while in that terrain.  They'll have shortened movement costs and things elsewhere as well, but their most noticeable difference will be in that one particular terrain they have chosen.

This still encourages tribes to stick to one particular kind of area and not the whole world, as was previously mentioned, but it also helps those who feel they're now crippled.  It still cuts down on twinks, who will not be able to traverse the entire known world with a d-elf - but it doesn't harm those who are RP'ing correctly.  A kank maybe can outrun an elf in the desert, or around Luir's, but not near its home, where it has lived its entire life.  Native terrain represents familiarity with that kind of area, as well as simple adaption.

Anyway... that's just a brief spurt of what I was thinking of and sent in, so now you're all the wiser.  Anyone's thoughts?

[Delirium]

Just to chime in, I like that a lot, Samoa. Hopefully it wouldn't be too hard to code. Seems like a reasonable compromise to me.

[EvilRoeSlade]

What I did want to suggest and get some feedback on was the possible introduction of a smaller and lighter, one-man tent for player's use in the deserts that weren't strong enough or didn't want a tent suitable for fitting 4-8 grown men.

Look around in the Blackwing Outpost, and you WILL find what you are looking for.

[EvilRoeSlade]

Alright, so why would desert elf culture long ago make pariahs out of those who ride kanks?  Why would they chose to not use something that would then have a positive impact on the longevity of their people?

One reason.  Pride.

Don't nerf desert elves without nerfing kanks.  Otherwise desert elves not using kanks doesn't make sense to me.

Maybe I'm just cynical, but I look at fear of death as the ultimate proving grounds for your beliefs.  I think not just a few homophobes would suck them some pecker if it meant they would be left alive.  Same for desert elves.  A significant number would, when push comes to shove, hop onto a kank to ride to safety since it now means they could get further.

By your logic, a dwarf should just give up his focus if he knows its going to get him killed.  Or perhaps a Northerner should make friends with a magicker if he's afraid the magicker is going to kill him.  People don't always take the most rational course of action in any given situation, and hell, tribal beliefs and customs are rarely very reasonable as a rule.  I personally think a desert elf might ride a kank to save his life, but not as a general mode of transportation.  If he did, he'd be very embarrassed about it, and he certainly wouldn't mention it to anybody.

I personally wouldn't mind seeing kanks have less stamina, provided they could still out-perform desert elves.  A Desert elf is basically equivalent to a human Olympic runner, while a kank is equivalent to a giant insect.  As Adult Content pointed out, the latter is going to be a hell of a lot more efficient.

Personally, I think that once people get used to the change, there will be less deaths due to running out of movement.  Probably roughly equivalent to the amount of deaths that result from when kanks run out of stamina and leave their rider stranded.  I've played many, many desert elves, and none of them have ever even had to worry about their movement.  I think the change was much needed.

[X-D]

Well, I also am not currently playing a d-elf, but When I have, I can remember plenty of times when my char or the group he was in ran out of movement Or got low enough to have to take drastic action to survive.
Getting chased by gypsies is not very fun, some may remember how we got out of that.

But at least all the d-elf players know now what it felt like to be playing a dwarf when the hp regen was halved, Oh look, humans heal up as fast as the dwarf now...Oh look, I can't outrun or go farther then a kank, Myself, I hate anything that makes a class or race closer to others, each class or race should have distinctive advantages and disadvantages, city elves should be FAST in action and agile, d-elves should be able to RUN, dwarves should HEAL, muls are STRONG and giants are HUGE, humans should have no true advantage or disadvantage, this then is the advantage to them. I would go into the other races, But I think everybody gets the picture. Just my 2 sid here, I know it is not gonna change anything but I know I will think twice now about playing another d-elf.

D-Elves will now actually have to try to think of how they are going to escape instead of just run real far real fast. Climb up something so the following filthy kank riders can't follow you. Etc. Unless they know exactly where you are going, you can lose then because they are not going to run their kanks and it takes time to track like I said unless they know exactly where you are going. So don't go exactly where they think you are going.

Kanks are a crutch and thus if you lose your kank your in a lot of trouble. Elves don't have to worry about that.

I can't really say in earnest how it affects them because I have never played a D-elf. But I will say this, if elves get their movement back I think dwarves should get their more powerful regen back.

And its not like everyone runs out to attack D-elves without numbers. I mean not more than once. D-elves are not very easy to kill in just straight up fights. The person would have to either get a lot of people, get a half-giant to subdue them(probably twinkish), poison etc. Else, D-elves just run away. Their high agility makes it tough to just cut down. I personally try and have at least three to one odds since I am a karmaless loser, and the people I run with are not karma characters either. So unless they are soh I leave them be unless provoked of course.

[chang]

D-Elves will now actually have to try to think of how they are going to escape instead of just run real far real fast. Climb up something so the following filthy kank riders can't follow you.

Never played a D-Elf myself, but that sounds like fun.

[gfair]

Samoa's idea sounds good. Better to be first in the Tablelands than Second across Zalanthas.

Perhaps there are even evolutionary adaptations for d-elves on certain terrain.  Wider feet for desert d-elfs to get better traction in sand.  More padding in feet that run on harder lands. That, in conjunction with boots, of course.  Perhaps d-elfs also have the finest quality travelling boots in the land because they travel so much.

Implementing this system depends on whether there's a difference made between, say, red desert land versus tablelands or southern waste lands.  If so, good, if not, then it would still allow d-elfs to run freely on a great variety of land, which would have to be fixed.


But certainly, the distinctiveness of the d-elf is lessened it seems.  Either that, or to be true global travellers, people will have to look to other races that are not so tribal in nature.

[Angela Christine]

D-Elves will not actually have to try to think of how they are going to escape instead of just run real far real fast. Climb up something so the following filthy kank riders can't follow you.

Never played a D-Elf myself, but that sounds like fun.

Yeah, or deliberately run into a hole, assuming you can find one.   :roll:  You'll get out of that hole a lot faster than a kank.  When you climb out of the hole you have three directions to choose from; so if your pursuers go around the hole they will have to check around to see which direction you took off in.   Or over a cliff.  When you are trying to elude riders climb is your friend.  

Desert hide is also good for those times when you run out of stamina; the pursuers might see you, or they might not.   It is too bad you can't regen stamina at all while hiding, I think most methods of hiding would let you regen slowly.

You can also run through an NPC ambush point, usually as an elf I could move through these rooms before the NPCs react, while those on a walking kank will be slower, especially if they are trying to track.  Gith and other meanies will be happy to take a few humans off your trail.  The humans will either die, run away, or stand and fight; running will sap thier kank's movement, fighting will take time and let you get farther ahead.  

Running through traps (holes, cliffs, NPC strong points, etc) doesn't just slow down your enemies, it demoralizes them.  Stupid humans.  

AC

[Plazgoth]

I currently play a DE and think that the new change will achieve it's intended goals of limiting mindless wandering of DEs through the Known World. I don't think that the wandering will stop, it will just be better planned less mindless. And when a DE now travels outside their "territory" it will take them longer to get where they are going and will force them to stay there for longer periods of time. The tent idea is also great, before tents were not required, now you will end up seeing DEs with tents all over.

I think the change will have another side effect, it will make players currently playing DEs bitter and hateful toward all races, more then they previously were. Personally I used to see my elf as a lot more superior to others and would let others live 99%, choosing to go after them for the interaction rather then for the kill. Now I would not think twice before killing someone, since they are on equal grounds with me, I would still come after them for the RP and interaction, I just won't feel like I am abusing my powers when I kill them off.

I think the change might also cause less interaction between DEs and other races. Since DEs will be limited they will probably go for the quick kill, leaving no room for an elaborate chase. And will probably emote a lot less before attacking.

Hot_Dancer brought up a good point, if your tribe chose to live in a rougher area, then it is indeed a pain to get to and from your camp, so guess what, you find IC reasons to not go back but once in a great while, or maybe you go back to your camp virtually, when you are logged off.

I also tend to agree with CRW that, it does not make sense why D-elves would not ride since it is to their advantage to do so now. And Krath knows, elves would do anything which is to their advantage.  

Well that's it, just wanted to voice my thoughts on the matter. Ultimately, I don't really care one way or the other.  I tend to adapt to whatever changes happen, and since I am extremely addicted it will not stop me from playing.

[Flaming Ocotillo]

If desert elves require next to no stamina to move in each outdoor "room", the change might work. As it is, it doesn't work. There's not enough compensation for the reduction in stamina points.

That basically sums it up.

[deviant storm]

Another sad thing. It's going to be harder to steal.

D elves do steal. I've done so, others have too. Usually hit and runs, since groups of armed men can be dangerous. And it's not as good a steal, not as artfully done, if you wind up bleeding afterwards.

It's going to make stealing so much harder if you live out in the boonies. All the other tribes are going to look down on yours for not having good thieves. That's going to mean sticking to raiding instead of sneaky and more mv oriented stealing techniques.

[Sanvean]

Among other things, desert elves still have less movement lag than any other race, including kanks.

Much of the feedback has been useful, some more than others. I think Ness will probably continue tweaking the code as a result of some of it.

Yes, desert elves are a karma race - the very first one on the ladder, and lower in karma requirement than any other karma race or guild. In some ways they're a way of testing out whether someone is capable of handling a more challenging role or not. I'm not fond of solutions advocating taking away karma or being even more stringent with it.

[Glowworm]

I don't mind this change on its own. But when a kank-mounted rider can still speed hunt and speed ride over the same terrain and catch up to a Delf who has drained his stamina, I think something is wrong.

For the record, I've seen dozens more kank-mounted riders go from Allanak to Tuluk without stopping than I have seen desert elves.

Don't nerf desert elves without nerfing kanks. Otherwise desert elves not using kanks doesn't make sense to me.

I don't know where you're getting your information, but you're mistaken.  A kank mounted rider cannot make if from Allanak to Tuluk without stopping.  I've tried, and it didn't work - you can make it to Luirs safely without stopping.

Second, for all of you DE's out there, your travel is NOT comparable to travel using a kank.  Kanks and other mounts recieve large movement penalties when they run - DE's do not.  Running, a kank MAY be able to make it 1/2-3/4's of the way to Luirs (off the main roads) before it can no longer move from exhaustion.  Furthermore, you recieve less lag time for movement than any mount...I know because I've tried to chase a DE before.  Most mounted travel is only feasable when WALKING, so don't get all worried about people chasing you down on kanks.

Third, there is a HUGE combat disadvantage while mounted.  You can only wield one weapon (unless you're a certain class and very skilled with ride), and your defense is majorly nerfed while riding.

So what if you can't run to Luir's and back now without a rest?  You never should have been able to.  If you want to go against what all the docs tell you about DE roleplay, go ahead and try to ride a mount for a while.  Maybe then you'll realize how many advantages you still have left.

[Angela Christine]

Pan-world travel is still possible.  While the movement cost for rough terrain is significant, the movement costs on most roads are modest.  Even a walking human can make it pretty damn far if they stay on the roads.  The roads are more likely to have ambushes than random patches of wilderness, but you can usually run right by them as long as you don't stop and look around.  So if you want to be a lone wanderer or trader who goes to cities accross the known world, you can still do that.  You'll have to rest occasionally, but that isn't a big deal if you plan your route.  That doesn't help for moving around within a territory, but if you want to head from the elven outpost to luir's outpost to trade, that is still doable.


AC

[Callisto]

Just wanted to add that Samoa's idea is a good one, in my opinion. Thats all.

[Kronus]

I play a desert elf right now. I'm not very active currently, so maybe that invalidates my thoughts on the matter, but this is something which hit very close to home, so to speak. Allow me, if you will, to spit out some number statistics for a moment:

Under the old system, my d-elf, with all current equipment, some of it +mv gear, worn, had around 340 mv. Typically, that being when I didn't sleep to 'top off', I would wind up with between 310 and 318 mv after resting up. Still a considerable amount, especially compared to humans.
However, at 310 mv, I'd leave my tribe's camp and start running towards the first room where there's an option to go in more than two directions (ie, somewhere where there was more than going forward or back the way you came). 8 rooms of canyon, at 6mv each, this would leave me at 268 mv, and from that number, I would actually be able to begin any trip to any other location. 268 mv would typically let me do a little bit of wandering around and hunting and still make it to the d-elf outpost without too much to worry about.
Under the new system, I have 160 mv. Less than half of what I used to have. Without sleeping, I have about 135-140. After leaving my tribe's canyon to the first open area of the Tablelands, I'm already down to 80 - 90 mv. From there, I know of two good resting spots (which are about as safe to rest in as it is to sleep in the Gaj sleeping room) within 10 rooms of that spot, and then nothing at all between those and the d-elf outpost.
This means that I can either do some limited hunting, or make it to the d-elf outpost in a single run, but not both. To me, this isn't a matter of being able to make it from Tuluk to Allanak and back without getting my leggings sweaty. This change has made it so that I can't even move between my tribe's settlement and the next closest settlement unless I take the road and do nothing else along the way.

Not too recently, myself and a couple of other d-elfs from my tribe decided to follow a fourth d-elf we'd never seen before. Using all the skills and knowledge of the terrain, we stalked this guy out of the outpost, through winding canyons, witnessed him casting a spell or two, continued to follow him back out of the canyons and over to the Span, and there ambushed the filthy magicker. We seriously wounded him and he ran, and we followed. Back down the road, back into the canyons, hiding, sneaking, running, hunting, dodging anakore and getting very, very worried that we weren't going to be able to get back out before collapsing from exhaustion.
When we finally cornered the magicker and killed him, I was down to 30 mv. We had no real idea where we were, and had to rest, out in the open, without a tent, in anakore-infested canyons, overnight. It was one of the most exciting, scary and thrilling hours I've ever had on Armageddon.
If this hadn't happened two months ago, but had instead happened this week? No epic chase, no getting lost in the winding canyons, no abject fear from being in a position I'd never been in before (almost out of mv's). Magicker wouldn't have gone into the canyons, because he wouldn't be able to make it back out. He would have run straight for the outpost after we attacked him, because it was the only place he'd have had enough mv's to get to from the Span. We all would have run in past the Blackwing guards, huffing and puffing, and proceeded to exchange trite insults and backtalk in the Desert Rose, impotent because the NPC guards would kill us all if we tried anything.
We've dealt with a d-elf who forced us into that situation too, in the past, and I have to say that the magicker made it far, far more interesting and enjoyable, thanks. And the only way he was able to do that was because of 300+ mv.

Another, similar story goes when we chased a flying gith defiler out of his nest and clear across the tablelands, fingers shaking and sweat rolling down my forehead from the excitement. If we'd all been hobbled back then like we are now? We would have had to have rested when we reached his lair, because we would have barely made it there. And then rested again twenty rooms back out after trying to chase him. Not very exciting.

You can say that d-elves were broken, that too many twinks abused their special ability, that it was never intended to be the way it was and that it's finally, five years later, been fixed.
But I want to say two things in return:
1) The most fun, exciting and thrilling moments I've had as my d-elf have been a direct product of their former 'supernatural' travelling ability. With my PC, I've been to the Scaien area once, Luir's never, and Allanak one time and only as a result of an immortal's involvement (ie, plot - and thank you! It was a ton of fun ). I've never left the Tablelands of my own free will, and have always kept to the very limited span of terrain between my tribe's camp and the d-elf outpost. Now my ability to do even that, much less chase gith defilers across the waste and tainted magicker scum through the 'kore canyons, is severely curtailed, because some gimp in some other part of the world was chopping too many logs?
2) I had enough of moving and resting and moving and resting again as a human. I know how to do it, I don't mind doing it. It's fine that I have to do it. But I'm not playing a human anymore, and yet... Now I'm being told that I'll just have to learn how to move and rest and move and rest again, and in terrain which is notoriously bad for resting.
What's the point of playing a desert elf? I'm weak, I can't ride kanks, and now I can't even run like the wind?

I don't mind balance. Balance is a beautiful, glorious thing in my mind. I don't think this is balance. This is taking the one splendid, shining virtue of the desert elf race and pissing all over it because some individuals weren't able to restrain themselves.
If d-elf movement points need to be reduced, fine. I strongly disagree that they do, but I'm not the one out cutting down 500 trees without resting or trotting merrily with a backpack full of spice from Red Storm to Tuluk on a sunny Nekrete afternoon. It seems like the problem wasn't the number of mv's, but instead the way they were being used in very specific situations (ie, on roads and in other, non-movement tasks).
But cutting my mv's down by over half? That's extremely harsh. My last PC, a human, had 148 mv. I have 160 with my desert elf now. Fine, maybe I can run now when I couldn't with the human, but I'm still not going to be making any kind of distance before getting worn out. My human could at least ride a kank for long trips.

[creeper386]

Okay, again, normal little quib about me not playing a delf and don't know anything, but this is just want I've heard and figured out smashed together.

Elves before wouldn't use kanks because the kanks couldn't keep up running, but now they can't use them because they can't go into the resting places. They are still in the same boat as everyone else except they can't ride the kanks.

It's been told that elves tend to go acrossed country. Tend to rely on their own abilities and skill then some road or anything else. They rely on their ability to run further and faster then anyone else. They can still do that but it's really limited and it seems cutting down the movement points seems to force delfs to the roads and easier places where the less then elves would use because they aren't as good, and even with the better terrain they need mounts.

As well, people complain about ISO groups, and that ISO groups should still be able to make trips to the more populated regions and such, and people really complain about delves cutting the player base up. Well, this certainly doesn't help any. Before what would be a difficult trip if they tried carrying any amount of goods to trade because they can't use pack animals, also have to go along ways, seems to be a nearly impossible trip because they well need lots of rest, animals still aren't an option for packing stuff. It doesn't seem to help very much.

I think it'd probably be easier to change the code abit instead of hacking down what delves have been for along time and what the well played delves really need just to survive. Yes, it was a bug, and just now being changed because of people cutting down trees and doing other non running activities and getting the bonus. Couldn't these activities just cost more stamina? As AC said delves could probably still run along the roads without too much difficulty. Probably well still be as many people doing that as before, and still lots of people doing long trips in short times with kanks and such. So that doesn't seem to be the problem. And it seems to mostly effects the elves that ARE staying in their area, that are hunting and doing what delves do.

Now, going to have to take all that with a big sack of salt, maybe all the salt flats worth of salt, because I don't have any first hand knowledge, but I know Hot_Dancer tends to know what he's talking about as well as others that have mentioned something about it now probably being very difficult to hunt and everything in their own territory... So... Maybe this WELL help bring delves in to populated areas, but thats only because they can't survive in their own territory like they should, or at least not without alot of hassle. I get frustrated and tired and sometimes in danger with humans just outside the gates of Allanak, and I don't think the land is as difficult or the creatures as dangerous as 'kore or meks and 'mets or anything else.


Thanks if you read it all.

Creeper

[EvilRoeSlade]

Kronus:  Moving your tribes encampment is in order.  Desert Elves are nomadic anyway, so why should they locate their camp in a place where you claim that you can't function?  And if there are at least three desert elves in your tribe, then I don't see why you can't afford a 700-coin light-weight tent.  Not to mention, your tribe has picked a harsh place to live in, so why do you expect anything other than harsh consequences?  Stop griping :P

Creeper:  It wouldn't hurt to play a desert elf before you make up your mind, since I don't think you quite realize what your talking about.  Desert elves are NOT equal to humans in capability, they still have their running ability, which gives them huge bonuses to movement when they run.

Anyway, this is where I step down from this post and quit arguing.  All I've seen so far (as Callisto pointed out eariler) is arguements that the race isn't as powerful as it was, or the penalty is too harsh.  I understand why the staff has done this, and I agree with their reasoning.  However, the only counterpoint I've seen is that you desert elves lost your power, and you want it back.  I don't care about game balance myself (and until I play one and am proven otherwise, I still think that desert elves have considerably more at their disposal than the average non-karma race) but I do believe that each race should have realistic capabilities based on what they are.  The other races have them already as far as I'm concerned, and now desert elves do too.

LOVE AND KISSES.

(By the way, I like Samoa's idea too!)

[Anonymous]

I'm a big fan of Samoa's idea, but I think it might be easier to code as new races.

The existing Delf race could be split into four races:

Plains Elves
Grasslands Elves
Tablelands Elves
Red Desert Elves

That would do away with the need to code an entire new command to have players set their preferred terrain types.  I am just pulling those above terrains out of the air, but I'm guessing that each terrain has its own label.  The major terrain types then could be set with movement penalties relative to the preferred terrain type of the each elven subrace.

Obviously if Samoa's idea was easier to implement then that would be the way to go, but my own limited time with a Diku derivative made it seem that new races using existing races as a template were easy enough to whip out.

Doing this would accomplish what I believe the staff was most interested in, limiting the trans-Zalanthas travel of Delfs while not leaving elves whose homes are set in harsh terrain up shit creek.

Props to Samoa for what I think is a great idea.

[Anonymous]

For the record, I've seen dozens more kank-mounted riders go from Allanak to Tuluk without stopping than I have seen desert elves.

I don't know where you're getting your information, but you're mistaken.  A kank mounted rider cannot make if from Allanak to Tuluk without stopping.  I've tried, and it didn't work - you can make it to Luirs safely without stopping.

Did you travel the north road the entire time?  How heavy was your PC?  Was your breed of kank the cheapest?  How much stuff did you have packed on you?

I am nearly positive I've been with a group that went from Allanak to at least the span without stopping, but this was over a year ago and I think I've tried to play my travel out more realistically since then.

[Lazloth]

I'm a big fan of Samoa's idea, but I think it might be easier to code as new races.

The existing Delf race could be split into four races:

Plains Elves
Grasslands Elves
Tablelands Elves
Red Desert Elves

Why go through all that nonsense when you can simply add options to "point <hometown>" in HoK if that's the intent?

Though interesting, I'm not sold on this idea.  Having played d.elves before, I feel I'm entitled to some little amount of opinion, and I'm on the side of fence that says "This was a change long in coming; before fucking with it again to appease immediate whining, gauge it in production as stands."  Like Roe, I'm out of here!

[Anonymous]

I'm a big fan of Samoa's idea, but I think it might be easier to code as new races.

The existing Delf race could be split into four races:

Plains Elves
Grasslands Elves
Tablelands Elves
Red Desert Elves

Why go through all that nonsense when you can simply add options to "point <hometown>" in HoK if that's the intent?

Because then you end up with more desert elf city dwellers, since Delfs couldn't just run to the tablelands from Allanak easily anymore.

And I would, based on my own limited diku derivative coding, think that adding flags to a character to give them easier movement depending on a choice they made at chargen would be more time consuming to code than using built-in commands to copy and then modify an existing race.

I'm not against the idea on its own, and if every race had Delf movement capabilities and they all got nerfed to force people to take into account the size of the world, I wouldn't complain at all.

Personally, though, I really need to have some reason that makes sense to me why the original founder(s) of Delf culture decided that riding a kank would be bad.  Not the Imms, the historical first elf.

What made the first Delf who thought kanks were for losers, think that?  The answer used to be easy.

[Angela Christine]

I'm a big fan of Samoa's idea, but I think it might be easier to code as new races.

The existing Delf race could be split into four races:

Plains Elves
Grasslands Elves
Tablelands Elves
Red Desert Elves

Why go through all that nonsense when you can simply add options to "point <hometown>" in HoK if that's the intent?

Either way, it would be nice if there were a southern hometown available for d-elves, all of them having northern accents is a little strange.  I suppose giving the desert elves no accent would accomplish the same thing.  Most PC desert elves may choose to live in the north for the easy food and water, but ICly there are several tribes in the south.

Anyway, I also like Samoa's idea.  I'm not sure how feasible it is though.  There obviously are different terrain types coded in, but how many?  I think to give elves a good run of territory you'd want 5-7 terrain types, if there were only 2 or 3 then they'd be all over the world again, if there were 10-20 the territories would be too small.  Is running through sand in the Red Desert much different than the sand in the Tablelands or the sand in the dunes around Allanak?  I don't know.  Is there much of a difference a difference between the Dusty plains, the Windy plains, the Scrub plains and the grasslands?  Then again, this too would be abuseable.  Who is going to pick "grasslands" as their prefered territory if grasslands are already cheap to run accross?  Maybe plains and grasslands would be rolled together.

Sandy

(most "desert" spaces)
Rocky (rocky barrens, rougher desert areas)
Plains
Woods (Basically the Grey Forest and other treed spaces)
Flats (sand flats and salt flats)
Hilly (hills and canyons)
Thorny (thornlands and other thick brush spaces)[/list]

AC

[Kronus]

After doing a little more careful looking, I've noticed that the actual mv costs for movement appear to have been further reduced for a running delf. Not by 50% like the mvs themselves, but by a noticeable amount. This has the net effect of making the movement point slashing not quite as severe as the flat numbers would indicate. It still seems a little heavy to me, but I'll give the changes a chance as they stand.


I had more to say about the general 'Get a tent and shut up' attitude people are giving upset d-elf players rather than addressing their real concerns, but just pointing it out will hopefully be enough.

[Twilight]

I was wondering about what Kronus stated, about the cost per room.

Under the old system, D-Elves used the default walking room cost, and cut it by a percentage.  As such, it was fairly easy to figure out how much further than a human walking that you could travel.  I'll refrain from posting the numbers, but I am sure a lot of you know the relationship.

The more I read this thread, the more I think that if there is a problem, it lies less with the movement point cut than with the way that D-Elf running ability was coded in the first place, as a simple percentage of their walking value.  I think we have an opportunity here to actually make D-Elves more unique, in a way.  Let me explain.

I would suggest adding in a new field to your Room sectors.  Basically, I'm assuming currently there is one movement cost associated with an Rsector currently, which is multiplied/divided by whether you are walking/running/sneaking and whether you are a D-Elf.  Rather than try to work within that framework, I think there is the opportunity, as I said, to make D-Elves  more unique by adding a second movement cost value to Rsectors for D-Elves that are running.  Basically, if D-Elves are walking, they use the first value, if they are running they use the second value.

The real benefit of this is it can be used to truly differentiate a D-Elf from a mount, or another race that is walking.  One thing I always saw as a problem was the very low movement cost it took a D-Elf to run on a road.  You could make it so that it took more for a D-Elf to run on a road, thus making it harder to travel from City to City, but that the movement cost for rough tablelands terrain was lowered.  Most rooms not below ground could have a movement cost of 2 or 3, maybe even 1 for really easy running ground, like in a city (I think D-elves should get a movement penalty in cities when running, not used to crowds).  Suddenly, the kank riders can run an elf down if he sticks to the roads, but if he darts off into his native canyons, or red desert or wherever, and uses the rooms he knows favors him, suddenly the kank riders are in trouble.

Anyway, thanks to Kronus's post for sparking the idea.

[Lazloth]

Damn, I did say I'd step away, but all of this whining has once again sparked the hide all the numbers from the players bug in my ass.  If the prompt/score/et.al. were reduced to text and variegated by race, then the mechanics become moot.  We players have shown time and again that we are incapable of living in a numeric Zalanthas!

Viva mathematical ignorance!

[X-D]

Well first, YES, it is quite possible to ride a kank from nak to tuluk nonstop, I've done it a couple times, there are some variables to contend with but you can still do it, not saying what kind of kank I used either, but probly not what you would expect.

I also would like to comment (again) on game balance, there is basicly two ways to balance the game/races/classes, either make them all very close in skills/powers/stats/ or make them very far apart yet with distinctive advantages and disadvantages, I myself prefer the second method as it makes things far more interesting all the way around, when you use the reduce method things start to feel stagnat, well, to me at least.

Myself, I have never seen the d-elf movement as incredibly powerful, Oh sure, you could run from luirs to storm nonstop, but that is something a mounted char can do as well, well, not run....I had plenty of fun and good rp that stemmed directly from the d-elf ability to run fast and far, though none of mine went farther south the luirs. had a good time one falling from a cliff in a little group, finding we were in gypsy lands and attempting to escape, We did, but not before many close calls and adventure, emotes rp, and in the end we were still in the lands and out of movement and had to turn to a desperate means of escape, gypsies in front, gypsies behind, and less then 30mv in a mountan area where it is costing even a d-elf 6mv per room, what do you do, I know all the chars that were involved are long long since dead but they would probobly say it was loads of fun and excitement and just a razors edge from death the whole time.

If d-elves would have had mv cut in half at the time, either we would have never gotten into the position at all or we simply would have died to npc's within 10 rooms of the spot we fell in, no fun, no real rp.

I think this cut creates a loss for the game and the world same as the across the board cut to hp regen did.

[Forest Junkie]

I've already given my opinion that I don't think HALVING mv was a good idea, so I won't rehash all that crap. I'm just gonna restate I think that this completely sux

[kiddgoth]

Just my 2-cents for what its worth, I completely understand that the Imm's wanted to fix the bug, to them it was just that a bug, they have been debating it for sometime now. But let me add this perspective. What are d-elfs called?.. I beleive runners is the common term, they run it defines them as a race more than anyone thing, its there pride, it is what sets them apart from their city cousin, its what gives them the cocky attitude of superiority toward the other races. We dont have to live within walled cities to survive...why cuz we run the sands we dont need any mount to carry us, our legs are stronger than any beast of burden * truth or not* it is who they are, at least who they where. Now they are city elfs with a tan I have played both and know both have the average same movement points now. Having just seen a d-elf chased down by 3 kank riders and killed sparked a tinge of sadness in me. I am sure the evil d-elf deserved it even though she was killed cowering on the road exhausted. I just know the best rp sessions come from setting up villians over time. Example my old d-elf hated the byn, its was in his background they slaughter his mother and father damn shit cloaks. Anyways the best time I had was rping with the shitcloaks as I tried to destroy them one at a time. We had many encounters and as my skills grew and their skills grew we had many epic battles, other d-elfs joined me more byn always joined them. So when they finally trapped me *bows slightly to the master mind who did* and rp'd my killing which was great and when I died I was smiling. Just saying no d-elf raider is going to attack any mounted party now it would be suicide, no more long time hated enemies unless we stick to the cities like are wall-kin. The d-elf raider was a force to be feared now the threat is no more. Talkin about realistic rp how about this one d-elf ambushes roundear on kank, opps roundear is a badass, d-elf runs to city to hide, why because d-elf cant out runner roundear kank. roundear finds d-elf at city gate resting safe. lame rp but its either that or die now. It not about whining its about what I think made the d-elf race worth being a karma race, hours of solo rping in the waste, testing your limits on long runs. Swindling the roundears for their worthless coins and then throwing it away in the sands as I ran into the wastes to head back to the post and brag to your tribes vnpc's. My heart goes out to the Soh Lanah Kah I hope the tribe survives the change its hard enough to find d-elfs to rp with as it was. I would have did it a litttle different I would have given a d-elf a bigger boost to stamina on character creation and then whatever their stat gave them in movement points I would have increased it by 1.25 or 1.5, so an average d-elf would have 200 to 240 movement points insted of the 300 plus they had before. But what do I know I just stand there and cut 50 trees down without resting... some of these posts make me laugh I hope mine entertain as well...I love everyone!

[Savak]

Point by point:

1) I still don't like to see numbers spewed forth on the discussion board -- so much so that I would have deleted/edited on the order of ten posts because I feel they go into too much unecessary detail had I caught them the day of posting.  However, I've just finished a trip with a net flying time of over 30 hours and I just can't think that hard.  And I know ppl are just trying to explain themselves.  But still.

2) I have long been a proponent of changing desert elves, most particularly with regard to some of their excessive physical bonuses.  I was playing a Blackwing many RL years ago, during the time they were OOC'ly banned from going to the cities and the clan was in the midst of its first major stagnation.  We walked everywhere, and rested frequently.  I felt I was living in a harsh world, and indeed it was.  One day our leader stood up and said, "Come, we will run the desert today on our way home.." and everyone sorta sat quietly a moment before finally saying, "Uh..okay."  Was she crazy, asking us to "run" when we'd collapse with no stamina in about 12 seconds flat?  Bah, we were tough, it'd be okay.  But no!  It was a test!  Of..the new fandangled run bonus for elves (well, at the time applied only to Blackwing, the only "desert" elves).  It was the coolest thing since the double-sized water-filled gourd.  And THEN, within DAYS, we got a MASSIVE stamina bonus.  Dude.  Cloud nine.  (And THEN, a couple of RL years after that, city elves and desert elves were given their own race, with certain physical attribute pluses & minuses which tended to give desert elves even MORE stamina and FASTER resting.)

That was the same day I put in my first "idea," to lower the bonus a bit.  We went from having to rest at least once between home and the nearest center of civilization to being able to run from home to the nearest two centers of civilization and, if we pushed it just right, all the way back.  We've bantered around changing this or other things many, many times, although usually with very long periods of ignoring it.

At any rate, yes, I think the bonuses as they used to be were too much.  However, I have *not* looked at or played with the numbers since the lowering in stamina bonus, and thus have no idea whether I personally think it may be "too much."  Nonetheless, as with all things there may be tweakings to follow.  I think our biggest failure with this is the simple fact it took so long to change -- YES, absolutely, many desert elf players have not only become used to it, but dependent on it.  That applies as much, or more, to good players as to so-called "twinks."

3) Other numbers.  How stamina or other things are handled depending on race, time of day, weather, terrain, physical attributes, magick, etc., are always in a state of reconsideration, typified by...shall we say.. punctuated equilibrium -- long periods of little to no change, punctuated by a short timeframe of several noticeable changes.  This applies also to how desert elves (or other races) lose stamina while running/walking/sneaking across a given terrain.  These are more subtle things which might be tweaked before actual stamina bonuses are further changed.

4) I'd suggest that at this stage, feel free to continue posting rants.  For the productive, however, it would be great to put down specific ideas for further changes (up/down, to desert elves or others) in a brief coherent sentence or paragraph and put it in either as an "idea" in-game, in email, or on here (in its own thread, but use your judgement as to how much to detail).

-Savak

[The7DeadlyVenomz]

Ok.

Simple little solution to this whole problem as I have heard of it.

Note that the ONLY elf I have EVER played was a city elf (my first character, in fact), whom I played as a desert elf because:

#1. I didnt have d-elf Karma.

#2. I didn't read the docs.

Anyway, the problem in the main has been the using of d-elf stamina to do things not assossiated with running, and the 'twinky' use of this.

Solution. Add a flag to those 'skills' that check to see if the user of the skill is a d-elf OR elf. Then double or triple the cost to use that skill. While a human chopping down a tree might have to use 8 sta points to make a stroke, a elf or d-elf might have to use 16 to 20. Foraging cost a point, it could cost a d-elf 5 and a elf 2. Do this with ALL of those things. (Note:I have never chopped a tree down either, so I've no idea how much it really costs.)

This is very simple, and it does NOT take away from the playability of the d-elf or elf race.

[Anonymous]

*goes blind*

[Sanvean]

That was...painful.

[Carduus]

Wait, so you admitted to not reading the docs when making an elf, not knowing about the skill system, AND you're trying to blind us? Somehow, I don't think that's going to get the imms' attention in a good way.

[The7DeadlyVenomz]

.........................

Can we stay focused on the issue?

Yes, I played a city elf from the desert. I got bitched at for spamming kicks and scans, riding kanks, and for pretty much everything else. As I got into the game, I learned that my elf was played incorrectly. I asked the imms to change my race to d-elf when I found out that I was not playing my allowed race in the right enviroment. They didn't. If you do not have d-elf karma, and you want to play a d-elf, either the imms don't care, or they just never bitched at me for it. And I lived a long time.

But...can we stay focused on the real issue?

My solution, in my opinion, is perfection. Of course, others will think differently. The point of the post was to present a solution. So...what do you about it?

Look, a post with no color and no smilies...are you bastards happy now?

[Angela Christine]

Look, a post with no color and no smilies...are you bastards happy now?

No, we are never happy.   :twisted:   Happy people have better things to do than obsess about game minutae on an internet discussion board.  We are in danger of becoming Fanboys, and fanboys are never happy; just look at any StarTrek discussion board.   :?

Anyway, I think it would be easier to adjust the stamina cost for d-elves when they move than to adjust the stamina costs for every other stamina sapping activity they might engage in.  Cut the movement costs and d-elves can run far, but not be insanely adept at all other stamina related activities.  

I don't know if the running movement costs need to be cut, but in my limited experience with d-elfs I thought having the same cost whether running or walking would have been helpful.   I can think of reasons why walking may sap more stamina that running, but I really think the walking costs should be cut to be the same as the running costs (the sneaking costs shouldn't be cut though).  That would make traveling with non-elves and pack animals easier.  Sometimes it makes more sense to walk, but you can go twice as far if you run, so they run everywhere.

AC