Magickers

[X_Scars]

Deja vu?


http://www.zalanthas.org/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=25179&start=345

I think this discussion's already happened.

Surprise surprise. That only tells you one thing. The issue hasn't been solved yet, if it is an issue. Hopefully Arm 2 will have this taken care of.

[Malken]

[edited because I don't feel like getting into another magick-related fight]

[Malken]

Deja vu?


http://www.zalanthas.org/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=25179&start=345

I think this discussion's already happened.

I think this discussion has been happening weekly for the last six months or so.. It's not a case of 'Too many half-elves' that happened three years ago and maybe lasted a week.

Some have a way to make it sound like we're seeing UFOs, but the more people are starting to see UFOs, the more I think the Powers That Be should at least look into it and give us a "State of Magickers in the Game." update.

[Tarx]

Maybe so.

But I linked the last page of the locked thread for a reason.

Specifically:

Sanvean wrote:
Hey guys. Too much edging towards flame-land, along with bits of IC-senstive info, and assertions made based on random facts taken out of context makes me think that letting LoD have the last word is a fine idea.

Please be sensitive to the fact that we don't want a lot of discussion of the magic system on here. A great many people want to find things out IC, and not on the boards.

If you have assertions or commentary that you feel absolutely shoudl be considered in the next version of the game, feel free to email it to me and I will compile it into the new game wiki for other staff to read and contemplate.

(later edit)

I have edited out some info from this thread, but have not gone through post by post because it's frickin' 24 pages long. To be clear on this, you should not be posting skill or game mechanic information on this board. It is one easy way to get yourself banned. Do not do it. If you see someone doing something that distresses you on the boards, it is significantly more effective to mail a board admin than to start spewing flames.

I'm just saying.  Seeing similar assertions made here in this thread.

[fourTwenty]

Why sit here and argue about it on the board. Somebody do this shit IC.
Grab a flag jump on a table and start yelling about how your gonna round up the posse and hunt down just about each and every wiggler you can find. You could probably round up a nice sized group for this, and magicker or not a large group of pissed off people is deadly.

What I'm saying is, obviously, arguing about it on the board is not helping...see the other multiple posts on this same subject for proof. But it seems to me that if more and more magickers were being born somebody, maybe even somebody -real- high up the totem pole, would take notice.

(In an annoying, overly-sweet, patronizing voice)And what are we supposed to do with IC problems?

[LoD]

Maybe so.

But I linked the last page of the locked thread for a reason.

Specifically:

Sanvean wrote:
Hey guys. Too much edging towards flame-land, along with bits of IC-senstive info, and assertions made based on random facts taken out of context makes me think that letting LoD have the last word is a fine idea.

Please be sensitive to the fact that we don't want a lot of discussion of the magic system on here. A great many people want to find things out IC, and not on the boards.

If you have assertions or commentary that you feel absolutely shoudl be considered in the next version of the game, feel free to email it to me and I will compile it into the new game wiki for other staff to read and contemplate.

(later edit)

I have edited out some info from this thread, but have not gone through post by post because it's frickin' 24 pages long. To be clear on this, you should not be posting skill or game mechanic information on this board. It is one easy way to get yourself banned. Do not do it. If you see someone doing something that distresses you on the boards, it is significantly more effective to mail a board admin than to start spewing flames.

I'm just saying.  Seeing similar assertions made here in this thread.

Of course there are similar assertions.  The "issues" that people have haven't been addressed, and it's entirely possible that they won't be addressed prior to the release of the new game.

What happens in most of these threads is that logical and reasonable analyses and discussions are eventually abandoned for passion and personal agendas.  That eventually results in differences of opinions, which allows the process to further devolve into unconstructive posts and outright flames.  There is always going to be a layer of confusion hanging over any written debate because words and ideas can be taken out of context.  An author can miscomunicate their point just as readily as a reader can misinterpret its intent.  It makes for a rather nasty and frustrating mess when it's left to boil and bubble.

The current game has changed, for better or for worse, due to circumstances that are unique to this moment in Arm's history.  Decisions made by the Imm Staff to allow far more magicker and non-mundane roles into the game has changed the dynamic.  For some, it's provided them with a chance to experience a part of the game that was previously "off-limits".  For others, it has provided their characters and character goals an audience and set of peers actually capable of acheiving goals that rely on a higher quantity of magick in the game; something that wasn't possible in the game of yesteryear.

For me, and perhaps for others, the increase in magickal elements coupled with a sense of futility that comes with operating in a finite gameworld that once held infinite possibilities has created enough of a deterrant for me to simply stop playing and wait for the gameworld to change back into something that more closely resembles the game I truly enjoyed.

As others have stated, I have great hopes that Arm 2 will do just that.

-LoD

[Tisiphone]

Why sit here and argue about it on the board. Somebody do this shit IC.
Grab a flag jump on a table and start yelling about how your gonna round up the posse and hunt down just about each and every wiggler you can find. You could probably round up a nice sized group for this, and magicker or not a large group of pissed off people is deadly.

What I'm saying is, obviously, arguing about it on the board is not helping...see the other multiple posts on this same subject for proof. But it seems to me that if more and more magickers were being born somebody, maybe even somebody -real- high up the totem pole, would take notice.

(In an annoying, overly-sweet, patronizing voice)And what are we supposed to do with IC problems?

That's what I said. You and me, let's get together and share the love. Oldstyle Armageddon.

[Ghost]

Why sit here and argue about it on the board. Somebody do this shit IC.
Grab a flag jump on a table and start yelling about how your gonna round up the posse and hunt down just about each and every wiggler you can find. You could probably round up a nice sized group for this, and magicker or not a large group of pissed off people is deadly.

What I'm saying is, obviously, arguing about it on the board is not helping...see the other multiple posts on this same subject for proof. But it seems to me that if more and more magickers were being born somebody, maybe even somebody -real- high up the totem pole, would take notice.

(In an annoying, overly-sweet, patronizing voice)And what are we supposed to do with IC problems?

I was going to write something else but it looked a bit flamory so I changed:

It boils down to:  It is not an IC problem.  If it was, when some magicker dies, he would not be able to make a new one right after the dead one.  Or certainly, after the approval email, there would be some chance like: "Your magicker was found out and killed since you know, magickers are hunted and killed."

[Agent_137]

This IS an IC problem. The immortals are obviously accepting more and more apps of magickers as time goes on and we approach The End.

This isn't purely player driven, this isn't an accident. Sanvean can say, "No, I won't accept your special app viv because we have too krath damn many already. Play a burglar or something."

Or she could just as easily tell the immortals taking apps, "hey, we need to cut back on the flow of 'gickers, there's too many. Be really hard on magicker apps, and even go so far as to request they come back to that character concept later."

But she doesn't. None of them do. Hell, these don't even post in these threads.

All this means . . . it's INTENTIONAL.

So, deal with it ICly, because that's how the world is suppossed to be. Sure, the docs say "magickers are rare." but now they aren't. Which means, CRAZY SHIT IS HAPPENING.

Again, deal with it ICly.

The world is ending, and you ninnies are bitching about it OOCly instead of enjoying it. Krath.

Ghost, are you saying that the immortals are fucking up royally? Is that what you're saying?

Who the shit cares, we get a new game in a few months!

[Tisiphone]

It boils down to:  It is not an IC problem.  If it was, when some magicker dies, he would not be able to make a new one right after the dead one.  Or certainly, after the approval email, there would be some chance like: "Your magicker was found out and killed since you know, magickers are hunted and killed."

Ghost, even if you're right, bitching on the GDB isn't doing anything. So what can you do?

Shut up and deal.

[Fedaykin]

It boils down to:  It is not an IC problem.  If it was, when some magicker dies, he would not be able to make a new one right after the dead one.  Or certainly, after the approval email, there would be some chance like: "Your magicker was found out and killed since you know, magickers are hunted and killed."

Ghost, even if you're right, bitching on the GDB isn't doing anything. So what can you do?

Shut up and deal.

I must disagree with you and your attitude.

If there is a policy currently causing a problem as he sees it, he can and should bring it to everyone's attention, particularly when some of those people can make a difference and when many people seem to agree.

Maybe nothing will happen with regard to the issue, and thats fine, but never think that brigning it up for discussion doesn't accomplish anything.

[spawnloser]

Um...yes, nothing's been addressed and noone can speak rationally about it.  You've said that before, LoD.  I love the suggestion that people that don't think "Magickers = Problem" are the ones that do this, since it is obviously an insult and you probably aren't insulting yourself and the people that agree with you.

To those saying that people "just don't want to believe" that there are quite a few magickers around these days are using a fallacious argument.  In fact, most have said that it is true, but that this being true doesn't mean that it is a problem.

Deal with it IC, I say.

[mansa]

I would rather see the ability to make karma characters (not including desert elves) disappear.  Special App - A-Okay!  Automaking krathis - No Way!

What's the point in having noble characters when you can't hire anybody, because they are all magickers / mindbenders?

[LoD]

This IS an IC problem. The immortals are obviously accepting more and more apps of magickers as time goes on and we approach The End.

That doesn't make this an IC problem.  All that makes this is an administrational decision.  Those two are not the same thing.  The Immortals have stated that one of the reasons for allowing more magickers into the game is because they want to provide some players a chance at roles they have not yet been allowed to investigate before Arm 1 comes crashing down.

This is not an IC development, it's an OOC development.  And it is having an OOC impact on the balance of the game.  Is it intetional on the part of the Immortal Staff?  Yes.  Does that make it an IC problem?  No.

Are some players, unhappy with this change, valid in making complaints or opening discussions for how this is affecting gameplay?  Sure.

Will it do any good?  Probably not.

-LoD

[Gimfalisette]

IWhat's the point in having noble characters when you can't hire anybody, because they are all magickers / mindbenders?

Totally agree. Important mundane areas of the game are being neglected.

[spawnloser]

If the staff approve the characters, those characters go in game, so they are now IC and an IC issue.  There are certain events happening in game that does help to explain why magickers are having more prominence of late, though not all magickers are part of those happenings.  I suggest, as some have already, that you deal with the IC problems of having more magickers around in an IC fashion...

...especially since everyone has already spoken their distaste that has so, and suggestions for fixing it in the new game have been made, and none made so far here are new in any way.

[LoD]

Um...yes, nothing's been addressed and noone can speak rationally about it.  You've said that before, LoD.  I love the suggestion that people that don't think "Magickers = Problem" are the ones that do this, since it is obviously an insult and you probably aren't insulting yourself and the people that agree with you.

I am referring to the natural progression in most long-lived threads that they begin, ON BOTH SIDES, as logical and reasonable debates, but eventually devolve into passionate opinions and personal agendas.  

Take your quote above, for example.  You've misinterpreted my written intent and applied your own passionate personal agenda to make an inflamatory comment about me and/or my motives.  This is one of the reasons why these threads devolve, as documented in my post.

Thanks for demonstrating how that works.

-LoD

[spawnloser]

You're welcome.

People start passionate about this topic, as can be seen on the first page of this thread and every thread from the last two months on the same topic.  Suggesting that it takes a long thread to accomplish this is a false assertion.

Also, just because someone has strong ideas and speaks in a passionate manner does not mean that the information presented is not valid.  Just because someone has strong ideas and speaks in a calm manner does not mean that the information presented is more valid.

Making comments designed to, no matter how subtly, make a personal attack with the purpose of undermining someone's position with all other readers does not make your arguement more valid either.

[Fedaykin]

If the staff approve the characters, those characters go in game, so they are now IC and an IC issue.

The characters in game already must be treated ICly, yes, but you seem to be missing the point that it is an OOC policy of continuing to allow so many magickers to keep flooding into the game that is under discussion here, particularly when that policy results in players continuing to make so many magickers after previous ones get killed off.

[Xio]

Hehehe. Didn't mean to start this whole discussion was just curious. I have a bad habit of dying somewhat quick icly due to my characters tending to lack in the common sense or luck department. The main reason I asked was just because after my favorite character by far, whom I'm sure would've lived long otherwise, was slain in luke-warm blood by a magiker just about every character after that has run into a magiker. So wasn't sure if I was just running into the same guy with like eight characters or what. Anyway, if people want to play magikers cause the game is ending, I say go for it. I'm just gonna try to finally make a character that branches a skill  :wink: So far magikers haven't done anything to kill my IC experience with the game, still have all that social interaction I crave so until someone blows up that tavern I'm always in, let the good times roll.

[Krath]

I've heard many gripes from people along these lines, and apparently some veteran players have left because they've found themselves staring at a mantis head one too many times after run ins with magickers and a lack of any RP.

I guess I'm one of the few people here who have never had the desire to play a magicker despite having the option.

I agree with your last statement.

[mansa]

Frequently, the immortal staff have said that the population of the pcs, and where they float to from clan to clan, do not represent the actual population of the clans themselves, or the game world.

Virtually, when Kadius has 30 pc employees, and Salarr has 3, Kadius and Salarr are still "equal" strength, and Salarr isn't dropping in quality or in population, and they aren't in TROUBLE.


We're supposed to do the same with the current game world, and the inflated karma classes that exist.

However, when my character I'm play, and the only friends I associate with are magickers...

It's tough to stick to the game world.

[amish overlord]

Possible explanation.

Arm1 is ending so people who may have put off being a magicker may have wanted to try magickers of diffrent types before the old is replace to new. So someone may be trying the different type of magicker in a row just to experience it.

More magickers is sign of the apocalypse!

Amish Overlord  

[X_Scars]

Just...don't forget about the mundanes.  :cry:

[Dakurus]

Here is my weigh in before this gets locked.

This is supposed to be a discussion board.
Sadly, it's proven time and time again that among those who are interested in discussion, there are those that would prefer to use provable false assertions to support their arguments, pursue personal vendettas, are regular trolls that are very talented at baiting, or fail repeatedly to separate or tone down their passion/emotions while posting.

Very unforunate because many of those things tend to destroy any valid discussion.

Weighing in as a staff member, yes, there are a larger amount of non-mundane characters in game. Some of this is not controllable currently due to players having the karma requirements. I feel it does strongly influence most players perception and experience of the world. And no I'm not planning on going on a killing spree anytime soon, so we'll see what happens.

As to the comments above, you know who you are folks.