Magickers

[Xio]

Not trying to gripe or anything but I'm just curious.
Is it just me and my characters bad luck, or are there magickers everywhere nowadays? I mean the last 3 (I think) mundane characters I had in the north kept running into magickers so I say to myself, go to allanak they're all gemmed there! So I go down south with my next character, what happens day two of playing? Kidnapped and maimed by a magicker. I like magickers,  magicker-interaction and all that, sparse and spread out. Could just be me though.

[Malken]

It's not just you, no, but the majority of the players around here doesn't want to believe it, so, better not to worry too much about it

[Xio]

Alright, just wondering if I have horribly bad luck or its just an increase that I missed when I had to stop playing for awhile. I'll just have to make a city-bound merchant in Tuluk who almost never leaves his room, they'll never find me then *cackles manically*  :twisted:

[John]

As we get closer to the end of the game lots of people (myself included) are going to play character concepts that they've wanted to for ages. Most of these concepts are going to be high karma ones

[Xio]

Yea, found out today, like three seconds ago, its mainly character's bad luck. Nobody likes them, or just the guy with the level 99+ shortsword of Tektolnes doesn't like 'em and just has to kill 'em for me. I have to stick to them non-descript types, too outlandish all the time. Once you get used to it, dying is kinda fun
Anyways hope everyone has fun as we get closer to Arm.2 think I might take another hiatus, I'm running out of character ideas.

EDIT: Just wanted to mention I didn't mean they hate my characters literally here. Around where I'm from hate tends to have a bit more of a less serious and more sarcastic, joking connotation. Kinda forgot that its not like that everywhere around the world.

[mansa]

I also have noticed a lot of high karma characters being played recently.

[Fedaykin]

I've heard many gripes from people along these lines, and apparently some veteran players have left because they've found themselves staring at a mantis head one too many times after run ins with magickers and a lack of any RP.

I guess I'm one of the few people here who have never had the desire to play a magicker despite having the option.

[jhunter]

Been playing the same outdoors character for two months now without having encountered a single drop of magick.

[Dresan]

they've found themselves staring at a mantis head one too many times after run ins with magickers and a lack of any RP.

You know i didn't want to say anything because i wanted to give the karma based players the benifit of the doubt but umm...yeah. :evil:


That said i can't blame people for wanting to play those karma roles but it would be a flat out lie to say there weren't alot of them. Curiousity got me and i'm currently part of the problem but don't think i'll be making another one if this one dies, training is boring and very lonely.

[Agent_137]

Just because they're in a karma role doesn't mean they have the karma for it, could be special app.

That said, I liked what someone said in another similar thread:

Deal with it ICly. It's obvious there are more around than ever before, let your character notice this. Let it worry him. Let it affect your RP, and, thus, it'll all be in good fun.

When you worry about something OOCly is when you're focus on the game itself and not the fantasy world, and not on the enjoyment of playing your character.

[Greve]

Some who voiced their opinions in the late magicker thread were more concerned about the unwanted effects of high numbers of magickers, not simply the fact that they're there. Their points were backed up by Halaster's statement that the magicker guilds are designed around the idea that they're rare and reclusive, and that the game may suffer when these magickers end up representing a fifth of the playerbase or whatever amount it is these days. The fact that cannot be denied is that there's an immense number of magicker PCs lately, so many that a lot of our players feel the negative impact, and that can't just be dismissed with a "deal with it IC".

I don't mean to restart the discussion that was locked, but since most of the staff doesn't seem willing to do anything about, or even aknowledge, the perceived problem that the rise of magickers is becoming an OOC negative, maybe some of the players need to moderate themselves a little. Do you have to make that magicker "just because you're curious"? Are all of your dream concepts magickers or could you choose one of the mundane ones that the game is evidently lacking lately? Many of the game-defining clans that the world is practically based around haven't seen any progress or new, refreshing ideas for a long time. Maybe it would be just as interesting to try that instead of making yet another interaction-restricted, documentation-defying, playerbase-agitating magicker.

[Jherlen]

Been playing the same outdoors character for two months now without having encountered a single drop of magick.

It's a conspiracy, jhunter. See, all the mages have been avoiding your PCs just so you can post this same comment every time the debate comes up.

[Rindan]

No, it isn't just you.  I was very active a little while ago with an outdoorsy character.  I saw far more obvious magikers in the wastes then mundane (or at least they were subtle magikers) in the wastes.  Hell, at one point I bolted after running into one near the road... only to run into another magiker walking along down the middle of the road with obvious magikal spells on a few minutes later.

So, no you are not crazy.  There are indeed ass-loads of magikers running around, especially in the North.

[Tisiphone]

I can confirm this, at least in certain places.

I think one of the reasons is also that many of the 'pro magicker' IC clans are kicking up towards the end of the game (not just in player membership, but also in plotline importance), and that some pro magicker iso clans are getting some recent heavy interaction.

Don't look to that as a statement forgiving the mass of magick, or a statement damning it. Just saying.

Also just saying, I really, really think we should deal with it IC. 'twould be completely awesome if House Tor, Borsail, Lyksae, and Winrothol (just examples, people) had the same worries as people on this board, and decided to send out massive parties purely for the purpose of culling the magick. Hell, independent PCs can try to organize these things, or the Byn might even decide to do so without a contract - after all, their Sergeants may come to the conclusion that 'tis worthwhile, since random magick encounters are making trips into the waste entirely too dangerous.

In fact, that has a very strong chance of being my next PC, now that I think about it...

[X_Scars]

Make a group specifically for hunting down magickers. I think Arm has been lacking that aspect...  :twisted:

[Fedaykin]

Make a group specifically for hunting down magickers. I think Arm has been lacking that aspect...  :twisted:

I was just gonna say the same thing.  We need a Van Helsing/Blade-type character which would be pretty appropriate in the North I think, heh.

[Dan]

I actually had a character who did this for about a year and a half. The only problem being that he himself was a magcker. It ended up being pretty eventful, taking down defilers and nilazi with my regular old elementalist. The guy had recruited several contacts in all the towns and outposts, along with a few helpful tribals. He was able to hear about events and "strange sightings" all over the known world and many places beyond. With the help of a couple friends he managed to eliminate quite a few bandit-types. That is until he died for killing a "mundane" and the game crashed, at which time he was respawned with no magickal protection in a very, very unfriendly place. Played that one for about two and a half years total, verging on three with six months in there being sporatic playtimes at best.

[Malken]

You can't really do much about it ICly, because if they have the karma, chances are that they'll just re-create another magicker, know what spells to aim for, which to avoid, branch them faster, then they'll avoid you until they are strong enough and take you down because this time someone or many will know that you hunt down magickers.

And if a strong enough magicker wants to take you down while you're sitting in a crowded tavern surrounded by others or guards, that's cake for them, 30+ days warrior or not.

Once you've tasted magick and how powerful it is, it's always hard to go back to your pickpocket. Well, for some at least.

[Fedaykin]

Once you've tasted magick and how powerful it is, it's always hard to go back to your pickpocket. Well, for some at least.

Cause deep down the repeat magickers are all just twink power gamers at heart.  

[Tisiphone]

You can't really do much about it ICly, because if they have the karma, chances are that they'll just re-create another magicker, know what spells to aim for, which to avoid, branch them faster, then they'll avoid you until they are strong enough and take you down because this time someone or many will know that you hunt down magickers.

Certainly. But I learn tricks too. If I shoot you full of peraine before you get a spell off, you're my plaything. The secret to magicker killing is preparation - same as with anyone else, but even more so. Certainly, if you toy around in the magicker's playground, you'll get burned, but that's just why you don't do that.

[Ghost]

Certainly. But I learn tricks too. If I shoot you full of peraine before you get a spell off, you're my plaything.

Which you can buy from the grocery shop.

Certainly, if you toy around in the magicker's playground, you'll get burned, but that's just why you don't do that.

Meaning, if you are anywhere within the known world, you are as good as dead.

[Malken]

Can we all stop with the "Toying around the magicker's playground thing" again? I think we've established that magickers are currently being seen all over the place, not just by the mundanes 'stumbling' into ruins.. If you say that the grasslands, or the tablelands, or that the grey forest is the 'magicker's playground', then I'll agree with you.

With one of my last character, up in Tuluk, I think that more than half of my conversations were about mindbenders and magickers and nothing else. That was getting quite tiredsome. There wasn't a day going by without someone encountering one or the other. It went on like this for as long as I can remember, until I stopped playing because I thought things were getting just too ridiculous. (That and the lack of players up there probably didn't helped in the fact that nobodies like my character were targetted constantly for no reasons.)

Now I can understand that everyone wants to play something 'special' and that playing an elf burglar who's just trying to survive by when there's only a few months left before the end might not sound too appealing, but for me, I'll just wait until the new game before playing again and hope that it won't be like this for at least a few months after.

I don't know if its because the admins lost sight of the 'big picture' because they are too busy building and coding on the new game and keeping an eye on their own clans when they have the time left for it, but if things are the way they should be, I wish they'd just come and end this "There's too many non-mundanes roles around." constant discussions by just telling us that things are working as they should be.

That would at least shut me up and not make me feel like I'm crazy because I'm thinking there's way too many of them lately.

[jhunter]

Been playing the same outdoors character for two months now without having encountered a single drop of magick.

It's a conspiracy, jhunter. See, all the mages have been avoiding your PCs just so you can post this same comment every time the debate comes up.

All I'm saying is that if it's really that bad, how come I'm not seeing it? One would think if it really was as bad as some are saying that it would be nearly impossible to play a pc that mainly lives in the wilds and -not- run into magickers all the time.
Yes, so long as people continue claiming there's a problem that I'm not experiencing in the slightest, I'm going to speak up about it.
Someone also claimed that they're everywhere up north. Hrrmmm...my pc is up north and I've yet to run into even one magicker.
*shrug*

[Tarx]

Deja vu?


http://www.zalanthas.org/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=25179&start=345

I think this discussion's already happened.

[X_Scars]

I think if the mundane clans had something going for them that was more interesting than being a magicker is, it would solve this problem.

As it stands now, all this End of the World stuff is catering a whole lot to magickers and not so much the mundane. Don't know if that was how it was planned to be, but I'd like to see the mundane aspect of the final few months in Arm 1 be more prominent than all this magick and otherwordly 'stuff'. I mean, what's the point of having a low magick setting if the majority of the interesting and important plots are magick related? That just doesn't tickle my fancy.  :roll:

Now, I'm not saying we don't have -any- good mundane plots, but from my experience so far, all the more prominent plots have a magicker lurking in the background pulling strings and whatnot. Why!?

[X_Scars]

Deja vu?


http://www.zalanthas.org/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=25179&start=345

I think this discussion's already happened.

Surprise surprise. That only tells you one thing. The issue hasn't been solved yet, if it is an issue. Hopefully Arm 2 will have this taken care of.

[Malken]

[edited because I don't feel like getting into another magick-related fight]

[Malken]

Deja vu?


http://www.zalanthas.org/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=25179&start=345

I think this discussion's already happened.

I think this discussion has been happening weekly for the last six months or so.. It's not a case of 'Too many half-elves' that happened three years ago and maybe lasted a week.

Some have a way to make it sound like we're seeing UFOs, but the more people are starting to see UFOs, the more I think the Powers That Be should at least look into it and give us a "State of Magickers in the Game." update.

[Tarx]

Maybe so.

But I linked the last page of the locked thread for a reason.

Specifically:

Sanvean wrote:
Hey guys. Too much edging towards flame-land, along with bits of IC-senstive info, and assertions made based on random facts taken out of context makes me think that letting LoD have the last word is a fine idea.

Please be sensitive to the fact that we don't want a lot of discussion of the magic system on here. A great many people want to find things out IC, and not on the boards.

If you have assertions or commentary that you feel absolutely shoudl be considered in the next version of the game, feel free to email it to me and I will compile it into the new game wiki for other staff to read and contemplate.

(later edit)

I have edited out some info from this thread, but have not gone through post by post because it's frickin' 24 pages long. To be clear on this, you should not be posting skill or game mechanic information on this board. It is one easy way to get yourself banned. Do not do it. If you see someone doing something that distresses you on the boards, it is significantly more effective to mail a board admin than to start spewing flames.

I'm just saying.  Seeing similar assertions made here in this thread.

[fourTwenty]

Why sit here and argue about it on the board. Somebody do this shit IC.
Grab a flag jump on a table and start yelling about how your gonna round up the posse and hunt down just about each and every wiggler you can find. You could probably round up a nice sized group for this, and magicker or not a large group of pissed off people is deadly.

What I'm saying is, obviously, arguing about it on the board is not helping...see the other multiple posts on this same subject for proof. But it seems to me that if more and more magickers were being born somebody, maybe even somebody -real- high up the totem pole, would take notice.

(In an annoying, overly-sweet, patronizing voice)And what are we supposed to do with IC problems?

[LoD]

Maybe so.

But I linked the last page of the locked thread for a reason.

Specifically:

Sanvean wrote:
Hey guys. Too much edging towards flame-land, along with bits of IC-senstive info, and assertions made based on random facts taken out of context makes me think that letting LoD have the last word is a fine idea.

Please be sensitive to the fact that we don't want a lot of discussion of the magic system on here. A great many people want to find things out IC, and not on the boards.

If you have assertions or commentary that you feel absolutely shoudl be considered in the next version of the game, feel free to email it to me and I will compile it into the new game wiki for other staff to read and contemplate.

(later edit)

I have edited out some info from this thread, but have not gone through post by post because it's frickin' 24 pages long. To be clear on this, you should not be posting skill or game mechanic information on this board. It is one easy way to get yourself banned. Do not do it. If you see someone doing something that distresses you on the boards, it is significantly more effective to mail a board admin than to start spewing flames.

I'm just saying.  Seeing similar assertions made here in this thread.

Of course there are similar assertions.  The "issues" that people have haven't been addressed, and it's entirely possible that they won't be addressed prior to the release of the new game.

What happens in most of these threads is that logical and reasonable analyses and discussions are eventually abandoned for passion and personal agendas.  That eventually results in differences of opinions, which allows the process to further devolve into unconstructive posts and outright flames.  There is always going to be a layer of confusion hanging over any written debate because words and ideas can be taken out of context.  An author can miscomunicate their point just as readily as a reader can misinterpret its intent.  It makes for a rather nasty and frustrating mess when it's left to boil and bubble.

The current game has changed, for better or for worse, due to circumstances that are unique to this moment in Arm's history.  Decisions made by the Imm Staff to allow far more magicker and non-mundane roles into the game has changed the dynamic.  For some, it's provided them with a chance to experience a part of the game that was previously "off-limits".  For others, it has provided their characters and character goals an audience and set of peers actually capable of acheiving goals that rely on a higher quantity of magick in the game; something that wasn't possible in the game of yesteryear.

For me, and perhaps for others, the increase in magickal elements coupled with a sense of futility that comes with operating in a finite gameworld that once held infinite possibilities has created enough of a deterrant for me to simply stop playing and wait for the gameworld to change back into something that more closely resembles the game I truly enjoyed.

As others have stated, I have great hopes that Arm 2 will do just that.

-LoD

[Tisiphone]

Why sit here and argue about it on the board. Somebody do this shit IC.
Grab a flag jump on a table and start yelling about how your gonna round up the posse and hunt down just about each and every wiggler you can find. You could probably round up a nice sized group for this, and magicker or not a large group of pissed off people is deadly.

What I'm saying is, obviously, arguing about it on the board is not helping...see the other multiple posts on this same subject for proof. But it seems to me that if more and more magickers were being born somebody, maybe even somebody -real- high up the totem pole, would take notice.

(In an annoying, overly-sweet, patronizing voice)And what are we supposed to do with IC problems?

That's what I said. You and me, let's get together and share the love. Oldstyle Armageddon.

[Ghost]

Why sit here and argue about it on the board. Somebody do this shit IC.
Grab a flag jump on a table and start yelling about how your gonna round up the posse and hunt down just about each and every wiggler you can find. You could probably round up a nice sized group for this, and magicker or not a large group of pissed off people is deadly.

What I'm saying is, obviously, arguing about it on the board is not helping...see the other multiple posts on this same subject for proof. But it seems to me that if more and more magickers were being born somebody, maybe even somebody -real- high up the totem pole, would take notice.

(In an annoying, overly-sweet, patronizing voice)And what are we supposed to do with IC problems?

I was going to write something else but it looked a bit flamory so I changed:

It boils down to:  It is not an IC problem.  If it was, when some magicker dies, he would not be able to make a new one right after the dead one.  Or certainly, after the approval email, there would be some chance like: "Your magicker was found out and killed since you know, magickers are hunted and killed."

[Agent_137]

This IS an IC problem. The immortals are obviously accepting more and more apps of magickers as time goes on and we approach The End.

This isn't purely player driven, this isn't an accident. Sanvean can say, "No, I won't accept your special app viv because we have too krath damn many already. Play a burglar or something."

Or she could just as easily tell the immortals taking apps, "hey, we need to cut back on the flow of 'gickers, there's too many. Be really hard on magicker apps, and even go so far as to request they come back to that character concept later."

But she doesn't. None of them do. Hell, these don't even post in these threads.

All this means . . . it's INTENTIONAL.

So, deal with it ICly, because that's how the world is suppossed to be. Sure, the docs say "magickers are rare." but now they aren't. Which means, CRAZY SHIT IS HAPPENING.

Again, deal with it ICly.

The world is ending, and you ninnies are bitching about it OOCly instead of enjoying it. Krath.

Ghost, are you saying that the immortals are fucking up royally? Is that what you're saying?

Who the shit cares, we get a new game in a few months!

[Tisiphone]

It boils down to:  It is not an IC problem.  If it was, when some magicker dies, he would not be able to make a new one right after the dead one.  Or certainly, after the approval email, there would be some chance like: "Your magicker was found out and killed since you know, magickers are hunted and killed."

Ghost, even if you're right, bitching on the GDB isn't doing anything. So what can you do?

Shut up and deal.

[Fedaykin]

It boils down to:  It is not an IC problem.  If it was, when some magicker dies, he would not be able to make a new one right after the dead one.  Or certainly, after the approval email, there would be some chance like: "Your magicker was found out and killed since you know, magickers are hunted and killed."

Ghost, even if you're right, bitching on the GDB isn't doing anything. So what can you do?

Shut up and deal.

I must disagree with you and your attitude.

If there is a policy currently causing a problem as he sees it, he can and should bring it to everyone's attention, particularly when some of those people can make a difference and when many people seem to agree.

Maybe nothing will happen with regard to the issue, and thats fine, but never think that brigning it up for discussion doesn't accomplish anything.

[spawnloser]

Um...yes, nothing's been addressed and noone can speak rationally about it.  You've said that before, LoD.  I love the suggestion that people that don't think "Magickers = Problem" are the ones that do this, since it is obviously an insult and you probably aren't insulting yourself and the people that agree with you.

To those saying that people "just don't want to believe" that there are quite a few magickers around these days are using a fallacious argument.  In fact, most have said that it is true, but that this being true doesn't mean that it is a problem.

Deal with it IC, I say.

[mansa]

I would rather see the ability to make karma characters (not including desert elves) disappear.  Special App - A-Okay!  Automaking krathis - No Way!

What's the point in having noble characters when you can't hire anybody, because they are all magickers / mindbenders?

[LoD]

This IS an IC problem. The immortals are obviously accepting more and more apps of magickers as time goes on and we approach The End.

That doesn't make this an IC problem.  All that makes this is an administrational decision.  Those two are not the same thing.  The Immortals have stated that one of the reasons for allowing more magickers into the game is because they want to provide some players a chance at roles they have not yet been allowed to investigate before Arm 1 comes crashing down.

This is not an IC development, it's an OOC development.  And it is having an OOC impact on the balance of the game.  Is it intetional on the part of the Immortal Staff?  Yes.  Does that make it an IC problem?  No.

Are some players, unhappy with this change, valid in making complaints or opening discussions for how this is affecting gameplay?  Sure.

Will it do any good?  Probably not.

-LoD

[Gimfalisette]

IWhat's the point in having noble characters when you can't hire anybody, because they are all magickers / mindbenders?

Totally agree. Important mundane areas of the game are being neglected.

[spawnloser]

If the staff approve the characters, those characters go in game, so they are now IC and an IC issue.  There are certain events happening in game that does help to explain why magickers are having more prominence of late, though not all magickers are part of those happenings.  I suggest, as some have already, that you deal with the IC problems of having more magickers around in an IC fashion...

...especially since everyone has already spoken their distaste that has so, and suggestions for fixing it in the new game have been made, and none made so far here are new in any way.

[LoD]

Um...yes, nothing's been addressed and noone can speak rationally about it.  You've said that before, LoD.  I love the suggestion that people that don't think "Magickers = Problem" are the ones that do this, since it is obviously an insult and you probably aren't insulting yourself and the people that agree with you.

I am referring to the natural progression in most long-lived threads that they begin, ON BOTH SIDES, as logical and reasonable debates, but eventually devolve into passionate opinions and personal agendas.  

Take your quote above, for example.  You've misinterpreted my written intent and applied your own passionate personal agenda to make an inflamatory comment about me and/or my motives.  This is one of the reasons why these threads devolve, as documented in my post.

Thanks for demonstrating how that works.

-LoD

[spawnloser]

You're welcome.

People start passionate about this topic, as can be seen on the first page of this thread and every thread from the last two months on the same topic.  Suggesting that it takes a long thread to accomplish this is a false assertion.

Also, just because someone has strong ideas and speaks in a passionate manner does not mean that the information presented is not valid.  Just because someone has strong ideas and speaks in a calm manner does not mean that the information presented is more valid.

Making comments designed to, no matter how subtly, make a personal attack with the purpose of undermining someone's position with all other readers does not make your arguement more valid either.

[Fedaykin]

If the staff approve the characters, those characters go in game, so they are now IC and an IC issue.

The characters in game already must be treated ICly, yes, but you seem to be missing the point that it is an OOC policy of continuing to allow so many magickers to keep flooding into the game that is under discussion here, particularly when that policy results in players continuing to make so many magickers after previous ones get killed off.

[Xio]

Hehehe. Didn't mean to start this whole discussion was just curious. I have a bad habit of dying somewhat quick icly due to my characters tending to lack in the common sense or luck department. The main reason I asked was just because after my favorite character by far, whom I'm sure would've lived long otherwise, was slain in luke-warm blood by a magiker just about every character after that has run into a magiker. So wasn't sure if I was just running into the same guy with like eight characters or what. Anyway, if people want to play magikers cause the game is ending, I say go for it. I'm just gonna try to finally make a character that branches a skill  :wink: So far magikers haven't done anything to kill my IC experience with the game, still have all that social interaction I crave so until someone blows up that tavern I'm always in, let the good times roll.

[Krath]

I've heard many gripes from people along these lines, and apparently some veteran players have left because they've found themselves staring at a mantis head one too many times after run ins with magickers and a lack of any RP.

I guess I'm one of the few people here who have never had the desire to play a magicker despite having the option.

I agree with your last statement.

[mansa]

Frequently, the immortal staff have said that the population of the pcs, and where they float to from clan to clan, do not represent the actual population of the clans themselves, or the game world.

Virtually, when Kadius has 30 pc employees, and Salarr has 3, Kadius and Salarr are still "equal" strength, and Salarr isn't dropping in quality or in population, and they aren't in TROUBLE.


We're supposed to do the same with the current game world, and the inflated karma classes that exist.

However, when my character I'm play, and the only friends I associate with are magickers...

It's tough to stick to the game world.

[amish overlord]

Possible explanation.

Arm1 is ending so people who may have put off being a magicker may have wanted to try magickers of diffrent types before the old is replace to new. So someone may be trying the different type of magicker in a row just to experience it.

More magickers is sign of the apocalypse!

Amish Overlord  

[X_Scars]

Just...don't forget about the mundanes.  :cry:

[Dakurus]

Here is my weigh in before this gets locked.

This is supposed to be a discussion board.
Sadly, it's proven time and time again that among those who are interested in discussion, there are those that would prefer to use provable false assertions to support their arguments, pursue personal vendettas, are regular trolls that are very talented at baiting, or fail repeatedly to separate or tone down their passion/emotions while posting.

Very unforunate because many of those things tend to destroy any valid discussion.

Weighing in as a staff member, yes, there are a larger amount of non-mundane characters in game. Some of this is not controllable currently due to players having the karma requirements. I feel it does strongly influence most players perception and experience of the world. And no I'm not planning on going on a killing spree anytime soon, so we'll see what happens.

As to the comments above, you know who you are folks.