Combat of Classes

[Cegar]

Is it me, or do some classes seem to be grossly underpowered in combat?

Merchants, pickpockets, and magickers especially.

Even with a decent bit of combat training, it has been my experience that they are regularly bested by things like skeets, jozhals, and other various small creatures.

Now, don't get me wrong, I don't want them to rival a warrior in combat prowess, but doesn't it seem a bit screwy that a merchant can't fight a small lizard?

[mansa]

In D&D, 3 cats can kill a level 1 mage.
THERE GOES YOUR 4 HIT POINTS

[Cegar]

MAGIC MISSILE.

Stupid derailing Canuck.

[Pale Horse]

Underpowered in combat? Yes.
Intentional? Yes.

These classes weren't meant to be melee fighters...but still, there are ways of making them at least decent in a fight against the wild life...Finding the right weapon works wonders.

[Hymwen]

Yeah, it is a little dumb, but I think part of it is to prevent the merchant from being his own hunter. Skins from small, supposedly harmless animals can often be worth as much as the skin of a raptor or the shell of a beetle, and if a merchant could just go out and kill a jozhal, then skin it himself, tan the hide, and sell it or work it into a finished product, I think it'd be negative for the game's already shaky economical balance.

[Cegar]

Underpowered in combat? Yes.
Intentional? Yes.

These classes weren't meant to be melee fighters...but still, there are ways of making them at least decent in a fight against the wild life...Finding the right weapon works wonders.

It's not just that they're underpowered, but they can't kill a small herbivore the size of an iguana.

That's not underpowered.

That's unrealistic.

[Cegar]

Yeah, it is a little dumb, but I think part of it is to prevent the merchant from being his own hunter. Skins from small, supposedly harmless animals can often be worth as much as the skin of a raptor or the shell of a beetle, and if a merchant could just go out and kill a jozhal, then skin it himself, tan the hide, and sell it or work it into a finished product, I think it'd be negative for the game's already shaky economical balance.

You forget that merchants lack skin.

Edit: and that skin-granting subguilds are capped at a fairly low level.

[Hymwen]

You forget that merchants lack skin.

No.

[Cegar]

Can they skin? Yes.

Can they skin well? Maybe. Maybe not.

Either way, merchants skinning jozhals wouldn't really be that bad. Shouldn't they be able to anyway? Just because a person's vocation or skillbase is focused around trading, why shouldn't they be able to kill small animals like any regular human/elf/dwarf/whatever.

The shock of seeing a grown man get murdered by a small, docile animal far outweighs the ability for a merchant to sell jozhal pelts.

At least I think so.

[Morfeus]

I think Hymwen is right. I don't find it unrealistic, because classes are about talents - and I could imagine someone unable to kill anything bigger than a kitty. Merchants have other powers, IMHO.

But I also think that the system on Arm2 is going to be slightly different in this matter.

[Hymwen]

I don't think most of these animals are truly harmless little fluffy wabbits, except maybe tregils (and merchants can kill those). Jozhals might be more like fierce, semi-intelligent dogs when cornered. Most Zalanthan creatures survive by being:

a) Hard to kill

b) Very stealthy

c) Not worth killing

And then there's the mysterious tregil that survives possibly because it multiplies like rabbits on viagra, faster than the hordes of spoiled treehuggers can kill them. Heh heh.

[Angela Christine]

You mean there are merchants out there who don't take the Hunter or Archer subguild?  Freaky.

[Cegar]

I think Hymwen is right. I don't find it unrealistic, because classes are about talents - and I could imagine someone unable to kill anything bigger than a kitty. Merchants have other powers, IMHO.

But I also think that the system on Arm2 is going to be slightly different in this matter.

I'm hoping so. I actually made this more with 2.arm in mind. And I really hope that class system allows for merchants who don't fight like boneless toddlers.

And Morfeus, really? A fully functional, grown human being unable to kill a kitten? Or cat? Even as a hyperbole, that's ridiculous.

[daedroug]

I don't know about you but if a cat new i was trying to kill, it I'd likely be unable to kill it. Sure if it's just lazing there in the sun and is domesticated and doesn't see me start swinging. Otherwise just forget about it.

::vision of a cat latching onto it's attackers face comes to mind::

[Cegar]

I don't know about you but if a cat new i was trying to kill, it I'd likely be unable to kill it. Sure if it's just lazing there in the sun and is domesticated and doesn't see me start swinging. Otherwise just forget about it.

::vision of a cat latching onto it's attackers face comes to mind::

You watch too many cartoons. Try killing a cat that wont run away. It's easy.
Especially if you have a knife.

[Hymwen]

Well they aren't little cats. Taking the jozhal as an example, it's probably as big as a large goose and extremely quick, plus it has sharp claws and grew up in the toughest neighbourhood you can imagine (apart from the 'rinth, maybe). And the only reason it doesn't run away once you attack it is because it's coded not to flee when injured, which is very unrealistic but would probably be way too much of a hassle if implemented.

Merchants can kill some things. There are little animals, mainly in the north, that a merchant can take down if he/she really wants to. I still believe it's more healthy for the game that merchants generally can't do their own hunting. The guild system may not be fully realistic but I guess that's something we accept for now, and hope might change you-know-when.

I actually feel that the guilds system works best if you base your characters around your guild in a way, however odd that may sound. What I mean is that I'll make my merchant a person who doesn't want to go hunting, rather than question the fact that I can't kill most animals.

[Rindan]

I find this to be an issue with many skills.  I think that class cut offs are too sharp.  A merchant, even a fat lazy bastard, should be able to hide behind a bed or rock.  He might hide poorly, and any idiot might be able to spot him if they bother to look (scan), but anyone should be able to do it.  The same goes for scan.  Any warriors should be able to at least TRY and find a hidden person.  If the hidden person is an incompetently hiding merchant, the warrior should be able to spot hi,

There are other silly skills out there.  Skinning a Silt Horror should produce SOMETHING to anyone who knows how to hold a blade with stabbing themselves through the gut.  Starting everyone off low cooking such that they can't cook a piece of meat or slice frigging piece of fruit is silly to the point of absurdity.  I, as a lazy ass American who can't cook can cook a steak better then my jack ass rangers who I assume must have had to of learned how to cook at least one point in his life.  Any idiot should be able to notice a silt horror track.

I think that the idea that your character must start out at zero some times gets in the way of reality.  People should enter the game with the ability to cook a steak, slice fruit, kill a rat, hide poorly, spot a poor hider, track a silt horror, kick a sleeping person, backstab a sleeping person, and keep themselves from being killed by a knee high cat.  Failure for the sake of preserving the idea that you start at zero or the idea that your class CAN'T DO THAT really doesn't add much in my opinion.  I don't think the world would end if my ranger started knowing how to hold a piece of meat over the fire without catching himself on fire, or if my merchant knew how to cower behind a rock when raiders came close.

[Larrath]

Seriously.

Even people without any combat skills should be able to fend themselves against, say, a vestric.  Comparing a merchant to your average American is a silly thing; that merchant is working all day, carrying heavy things and dealing with muggers and breaking rocks or chopping wood.  They don't sit on a couch watching television.
You take a guy like that, even without any combat training whatsoever, dress him up in hard leather and give him a sharp bone stick and pit him against a dog-sized rat.  The rat is not going to win!

A jozhal has sharp claws and it's a quick animal, but that's all it is.  A jozhal isn't an RL jackal.  And now picture yourself for a moment wearing hard wooden armor and holding two spears made of super-hard bone, and going up against this:


That's a nasty looking canine, but you're wearing armor and carrying spears.  You'd get hurt, but do you seriously think an animal like that can kill a grown, armed and armored human on its own?

[HoD]

New game fixes that problem with the ability to duel class.

[Larrath]

New game fixes that problem with the ability to duel class.

I disagree.

What if I want to make a Pure merchant?  I won't be able to kill a vestric?
I'd rather not be forced to duel class.

[Marauder Moe]

I had a merchant who, after over a year of Byn training, managed to kill a gortok by himself.

[HoD]

If you want to make a pure merchant, then you have to go with the "basic instinct" of your PC. And lack the "formal training" a skill gives you.

Sure, we can all fight RL, we have the basic ability, but I for one, wouldn't go up against a soldier, nor would I go up against any type of wild animal. Due to the simple fact I would get my butt handed too me.

The lack of a coded weapon skill implies that your PC has spent his life in the city under the protection of the king and his loyal warriors. Just because the world is a harsh unforving place doesn't mean you should have a weapon skill. You can play the game and die of old age without ever getting into a fight.

And besides, if your in armour wielding spears or what have you, you'll have an advantage over simpler creatures - but then, on the other hand - the citter has teeth and claws, and if it gets in close that spear becomes useless, simply because you cant use it at such a close range, more so if the creature is up on you mauling your face.

A dog-sized rat? Yeah, screw that. I'll stick to the merchant places and continue to buy and sell under the protection of the king, thank you very much.

[Cegar]

If you want to make a pure merchant, then you have to go with the "basic instinct" of your PC. And lack the "formal training" a skill gives you.

Sure, we can all fight RL, we have the basic ability, but I for one, wouldn't go up against a soldier, nor would I go up against any type of wild animal. Due to the simple fact I would get my butt handed too me.

The lack of a coded weapon skill implies that your PC has spent his life in the city under the protection of the king and his loyal warriors. Just because the world is a harsh unforving place doesn't mean you should have a weapon skill. You can play the game and die of old age without ever getting into a fight.

And besides, if your in armour wielding spears or what have you, you'll have an advantage over simpler creatures - but then, on the other hand - the citter has teeth and claws, and if it gets in close that spear becomes useless, simply because you cant use it at such a close range, more so if the creature is up on you mauling your face.

A dog-sized rat? Yeah, screw that. I'll stick to the merchant places and continue to buy and sell under the protection of the king, thank you very much.

I really think you under estimate the innate combat ability of human beings. Nearly all grown human beings, male or female, are capable of fending off attacks from lesser wild animals. You give a human tools - weapons - and even an unskilled teenager will be able to kill a large dog.

The inability for a merchant class human (or humanoid, for that matter) to fend off attacks from large iguanas is ridiculous, especially when that human has weapons. It doesn't matter if that human is a pampered noble or a seasoned warrior, it's going to be able to defend itself from a small, non-deadly creature.

[HoD]

Well, I think you over estimate. But to each there own?

The point is, from an OOC point of view,  giving merchants the coded combat skills plus the ability to craft pretty much every item in the game removes the need for the merchant to hire guards, hunters, gatherers, etc, removing the sid to spread out around the PC population, thus screwing the the game's ecomony.

In the new game, if you want to have combat abilities, you can pick warrior/merchant. You'd get combat skills plus crafting skills, but not the extent of a pure warrior or a pure merchant. Game balance. And I for one like it. I mean, who here likes the idea of the class system? I know I do. I have done classless muds, they just end up becoming lame. With every tom dick and harry being both L33t warriors and master craftsmen and handsome swavy socialites. I dont wanna be master of all, superman of the world. I just want to be the guy everyone says "Oh, yeh need that done? Ah know just the man!"

If, at the very least. I would like to see subguilds offer weapon skills, however.

[Cegar]

HoD, have you played a merchant? The ability to kill small animals is no match for the haggle skill or the ability to chop down trees. Or the ability to forage and find precious gemstones. In fact, for established merchants, it'll be cheaper to buy hides of small animals rather than go out and kill them. Yeah, even jozhals. The hides aren't made of metal or anything.

And this isn't about giving merchants, pickpockets, etc. the combat skills of a ranger or warrior. It's about not letting them get killed in an unrealistic fashion by something that should not be able to kill a humanoid.