I hate magickers, official thread.

[Hymwen]

I've seen plenty of illegal magicks even inside the walls of Allanak. Almost every one of my characters have had to deal with it in some way or another - my current one especially is forced into a plot that is so obviously magickal all the way through, and it's just one example of how it (to me) is absolutely impossible to consider magick rare and mysterious. I'm not saying that magick shouldn't exist, but I am in absolute disagreement with those who say that it's not too blatant and common in the world. You don't need to roam the deep deserts or dark forests to see magick frequently.

That's like saying it's wrong to see plenty of templars in Allanak. You should expect to encounter a magicker or see magick at -least-(meaning barest minimum) once in the lifetime of -any- Allanaki character, IMO.
See, there's this place called the Elementalist's Quarter and these people (who are magickers) that are accepted in the city so long as they wear this little black gem. It's -in- Allanak. There's also these warrior priests known as templars that are pretty widely known to wield magick as well who live there too.

I'm very sorry, I thought I made it clear when I said "illegal magicks" that I wasn't referring to the legal gemmed magickers or the very legal templars. My apologies. By illegal I mean things that aren't allowed/expected such as magicker attacks in the Barrel, people getting hauled around by whirans, and strange creatures appearing for unnatural reasons.

I've seen more acts of hostile magick than I have seen murders committed between mundane people, across all my characters. Just saying, for no particular reason.

[LoD]

Hymwen, the majority of people are slaves, so you're hardly doing anything that the majority is doing.  The majority of the non-slaves are poor and hardly ever have spare coin lying around.  They rarely see a temlar, much less interact with them.  They don't work for a noble house or a great merchant house.  Your character is exceptional by Zalanthan standards.  Get used to the idea.

Being "exceptional" by Zalanthan standards shouldn't make exposure to magick any less rare or mysterious.  That rarity and mystery should be defined by one's relation to entities or beings that deal with those entities.  For example, a Lord Templar will probably have a high level of exposure to magicks while a Kadian Senior Agent stationed in Tuluk should have a fair chance at never being exposed.

Both roles are "exceptional" by your definition, but they don't inherently share the same potential for exposure to magick.  Thus, when Senior Agent Kadius, and more importantly their player, does witness what they consider a high exposure to magick -- they provide feedback in threads like this by claiming magick isn't rare enough.  You are claiming that every PC has an elevated chance of being exposed, and should simply accept whatever interaction they receive as "normal" or "standard".

They just don't agree, and neither do I.  You know my reasons for why I feel the perception of magick in the gameworld is exaggerated.  They may not be arguing the true problem, but the symptoms are much the same and to simply offer responses such as this which don't identify and bring the two ideas together just seems combative.

-LoD

[Hymwen]

Hymwen, the majority of people are slaves, so you're hardly doing anything that the majority is doing. The majority of the non-slaves are poor and hardly ever have spare coin lying around. They rarely see a temlar, much less interact with them. They don't work for a noble house or a great merchant house. Your character is exceptional by Zalanthan standards. Get used to the idea.

I didn't say the majority, I said a large percentage. A large percentage could be 20-30%. A large percentage of Allanak's population are warriors by profession and clan affiliation. Are they exceptional? The entirety of this particular argument is pointless - I intentionally play characters who are very much the average Zalanthan. You're stating as a fact that the reason I'm seeing a lot of magickers is because I'm doing what I'm not supposed to do. Judge me more please...

Just because you've come across magick, by the way, that doesn't mean it's no longer mysterious to your character. Addressing the rare issue? You encounter magick 3 times in a characters life. How old is your character? A good average seems to be in the 20's, so that's once every 7 to 10 years, on average. Sounds pretty rare to me.

No, I'm used to seeing magick in some form or another on a weekly (IC) basis. My characters are usually played for a period of time that roughly equals 10% of their virtual lifespan, on average. Going by your strange logic, my 20 year old character would see magick or be indirectly involved something like... 3-400 times during their 20 year lifespan.

Experiencing magick doesn't necessarily mean having a guy throw a fireball in your face. If I'm walking down the street and suddenly see a wall of sand, I've witnessed magick. If I'm involved in a plot where NPCs or vNPCs people are being killed by magickers, my character is experiencing magick too. If I'm out mining and a guy sweeps past me with stoneskin, energy shield and fly on, I'm also seeing magick. If my PC's best friend gets blown out of a tavern by violent winds while I'm sitting next to them, I sure as hell am having a close encounter with magick. Most of my characters are having similar experiences too frequently for me to consider it rare in any way.

[moab]

Not to derail (can you derail a discussion that's gone on for 11 or 12 pages?) but Hymwen, I have to say it's nice to meet someone who likes average joe characters too (not that I haven't played the other frequently as well).

[Jherlen]

OKAY. Can everyone please step back a moment?

If there is one thing evident about this thread it is that there is a problem here somewhere. A thread would not go on for 11 pages if everyone was happy with the number of mages and the level of magick in the game.

Telling the people who perceive a problem that there is really no problem with mages at all is not constructive to debate. If they didn't have a perception that something was wrong, they wouldn't be here. We can argue about the virtual world and virtual proportions of slaves and boring people and blah blah blah, but the issue central to the debate is: that some people think there are too many magickers in the game and too much is revolving around magick.

Maybe we could have some constructive debate about how to address this perception rather than just arguing if it exists. Of course the perception exists, otherwise people wouldn't be here. Some people seem to be arguing with others in this thread just for the sake or arguing, and others seem to be sticking their heads in the sand and denying there is an issue at all, and that doesn't help anyone.

[Hymwen]

No, I'm used to seeing magick in some form or another on a weekly (IC) basis.

That was actually an exaggaration, but it's easily once per RL week, and does not change my point or opinion.

[spawnloser]

Okay, once per RL week.  Let's go with that.  That comes to roughly six times per IG year, right?  Six times a year doesn't sound like much to me.  I'd say that something I only do six times in a year is not common.

[Melody]

Okay, once per RL week.  Let's go with that.  That comes to roughly six times per IG year, right?  Six times a year doesn't sound like much to me.  I'd say that something I only do six times in a year is not common.

That's Hymwen. She's modest. Sometimes some of us have magical stalkers that chat you up every day for weeks oocly (Or every ic week). When one of them dies, you get a period of calm, for a week or two, and then some other magic or psi starts again. They are most unrelated, random (I hope). Maybe off peakers see more mages?

For some people, six times a year doesn't sound like much. But how much does it have to be before it is too much? This line of argument doesn't go anywhere for me. Perhaps you will kindly agree that the very existence of this thread might suggest something?

[spawnloser]

I just thought of something that may help.  I think what causes this is that it's hard for it to feel like it's only six times a year when, for us, it is 52 times a year.  It's common on an OOC level, in that regard, but not nearly so on an IC level.

[Gimfalisette]

If I was having six car accidents in RL per year, that would be far too much for me to consider them rare and mysterious. I'd feel like, "Oh crap, here we go again." They would feel tiresome and inevitable.

If I was visiting the dentist six times per RL year, I'd have to be in some kind of serious treatment for my teeth.

If one of my friends, family, or myself was shot and wounded by a gunman six times per year, I'd probably want to move to a different neighborhood. I would be weary and saddened by the violence, and it would feel like a regular part of my life.

None of these is really analogous to magick in the game, except that they are all unpleasant events which happen to ME in real life far less frequently than magick happens to my characters in game.

Something that happens six times per RL year is pretty damn common. Obviously we have different perceptions about this, but that's what a LOT of us perceive: Magick is common, it is not rare, it is not mysterious, and it's tiresome. We can't get away from it, even with our most mundane of mundane characters. And we want the option to get away from it, and have it BE rare and mysterious, like the game documentation says it's supposed to be. Continuing to try to convince us we're wrong in that desire is really just...silly.

[jhunter]

What fucking difference does it make if it's "illegal" magicks or "legal" magicks? None whatsoever, the topic at hand is encountering magick -period-. Whether legal or illegal is completely irrelevant.

[jhunter]

If they didn't have a perception that something was wrong, they wouldn't be here.

Just because they perceive there is a problem does in no way prove that there is.

[FiveDisgruntledMonkeysWit]

Here's the deal:
There are a lot of magickers running around right now. Probably too many.
But the game's about to end. People are special apping more. People who like magickers are trying to get their fill now, while they still can. People who've never played magickers are giving them a try. And who can blame them?
Of course, I doubt the surge in magickers we're seeing will magickally disappear once Arm2 comes out. With the restrictions of karma gone, we'll probably be seeing lots of magickers. People will be trying exotic, high-karma classes they never got a chance to test out before. Newbs who've been aching for the opportunity to play a magicker will jump at the chance. And people who just plain like magickers will keep doing what they always do.
What this means is that there re a lot of magickers now. And the trend will most likely continue for a fair bit into Arm2.
But eventually, the magick-hype will fade. People are being given a unique opportunity to play more magickers for the next six months or so; can we really be surprised that they're taking that opportunity?
Rather than freaking out about it and trying to re-design the new version of this game around what is most likely a temporary trend, I'd rather we all step back, take a deep breath, be a little understanding, and let people enjoy their magickers while they still can.
(Sorry if this was a little rambling- I had my wisdom teeth out, and I'm on painkillers)

[jhunter]

If I was having six car accidents in RL per year, that would be far too much for me to consider them rare and mysterious. I'd feel like, "Oh crap, here we go again." They would feel tiresome and inevitable.

If I was visiting the dentist six times per RL year, I'd have to be in some kind of serious treatment for my teeth.

If one of my friends, family, or myself was shot and wounded by a gunman six times per year, I'd probably want to move to a different neighborhood. I would be weary and saddened by the violence, and it would feel like a regular part of my life.

None of these is really analogous to magick in the game, except that they are all unpleasant events which happen to ME in real life far less frequently than magick happens to my characters in game.

Something that happens six times per RL year is pretty damn common. Obviously we have different perceptions about this, but that's what a LOT of us perceive: Magick is common, it is not rare, it is not mysterious, and it's tiresome. We can't get away from it, even with our most mundane of mundane characters. And we want the option to get away from it, and have it BE rare and mysterious, like the game documentation says it's supposed to be. Continuing to try to convince us we're wrong in that desire is really just...silly.

Actually, let's make this a bit more meaningful. You're jumping from "seeing" or "encountering" to the equivalent of being attacked by magick.
Six times a year for "seeing" a car accident isn't much. I probably "see" more accidents in a year than just a mere six.

The problem is, what one person considers rare is not rare enough for another. It's just where I like it from my personal experiences. No more. No less.

Anyway, I'm totally sick of the magick-hating whining. I know for a -fact- that some of the people who have posted in the negative regarding the amount of magick, the power of magickers, etc -do- have their own personal issues with magickers and magick period. I know that a few of them recently lost pcs to magickers, I know that a few have lost cherished characters to magickal things in the past. I also know that some of them never spoke out this way until such happened. They can front it all they want but I know the truth as do a few others who are not bothering to waste as much time as I have with this thread.

I'm not flaming anyone or intending to flame anyone. But I'm not going to sit by and listen to the few who honestly are having an issue with experiencing too much magick be a stepping stone for those with personal agendas against magick/magickers to springboard from in the hopes of getting their way. At least be honest about shit people.
The staff is going to decide how it goes, some of us may like it and some of us may not but we've gotta deal with it or go play another fucking game if you don't like it that much, but seriously...stop the bitching and whining.

I'm out of this hypocritical mess.
Good day all.

[Angela Christine]

Meh.  Just change the documentation, so that instead of being "rare and mysterious" they are "somewhat uncommon and poorly understood."

Problem solved.

[LiquidShell]

This thread rocks.

[Dalmeth]

I don't hate magickers.  Most of my experiences with them have been good.  It's the magick I hate.

As someone said earlier, it's too DIKU.  When I'm facing a krathi, I'm not worried that the witch is going to turn the area around me into a blazing inferno.  I don't think hunting down a Nilazi is going to end with me banished into the Eternal Abyss of Darkness and Despair.  I know I'm going up against something with 200 damage per second and 50% damage reduction.  Bleh.  

It's boring!  Where's the mystery?  So many of the offensive and defensive spells are just what everyone else does except better.  Most defensive spells are just armor except without any weight.  Given how combat in this game is pure statistics, magickers will always win straight up because they have the numbers on their side.  They don't even have to make much of a fuss about it, just fireball folks until they're dead.  No summoning horrors from the darkest depths of wherever at all.  No fun at all.

[Marauder Moe]

More magickal misconceptions...

[FiveDisgruntledMonkeysWit]

It's boring! Where's the mystery? So many of the offensive and defensive spells are just what everyone else does except better. Most defensive spells are just armor except without any weight. Given how combat in this game is pure statistics, magickers will always win straight up because they have the numbers on their side. They don't even have to make much of a fuss about it, just fireball folks until they're dead. No summoning horrors from the darkest depths of wherever at all. No fun at all.

I disagree. The spells in Armageddon that I've seen have been remarkably unique and innovative. You rarely see the "fireball", "fireball level 2", "fireball level 3" crap you see in most other games. Obviously, I can't describe some of the more impressive (or even just wacky) spells I've seen, and while I can't say "you're wrong", I am going to have to respectfully disagree.
Halaster and the other Imms have done a great job with the spell lists, at least from an asethetic standpoint.

[Dresan]

Magicks isn't limited by code, often only time and imagination. The code itself is pretty impressive aswell from what i've seen and definately not limited to 'fireball' or other 'basic' attacks.

I also can't say that your wrong, Dalmeth because that would be too IC however i too disagree with your assessment. :wink:

[Mr.B]

The problem with the current incarnation of magickers is that many of the cheesefuck magicker lovers have figured out exactly how to twink them out, to a science with exact figures of time spells need to be cast, exactly what they need to branch and so on, in addition to it being extremely easy and quick to powerup in comparison to mundanes. Couple that with armageddon closing down and a proliferation of magicker characters in game and you have an equation for why alot of players do not like the current magicker classes. But have no fear, for 2.Arm will probably depower mages from their current incarnation substantially so that it's more on par with mundanes as far as advancing in their leetness and what they can do before reaching supremacy levels of power.

[Pale Horse]

...But have no fear, for 2.Arm will probably depower mages from their current incarnation substantially so that it's more on par with mundanes as far as advancing...

Doubt it.

[Agent_137]

The problem with the current incarnation of magickers is that many of the cheesefuck magicker lovers have figured out exactly how to twink them out, to a science with exact figures of time spells need to be cast, exactly what they need to branch and so on, in addition to it being extremely easy and quick to powerup in comparison to mundanes. Couple that with armageddon closing down and a proliferation of magicker characters in game and you have an equation for why alot of players do not like the current magicker classes. But have no fear, for 2.Arm will probably depower mages from their current incarnation substantially so that it's more on par with mundanes as far as advancing in their leetness and what they can do before reaching supremacy levels of power.

cry more.

[Oasis]

Ah, the "cry more" last resort again. Not the first time you play that card, eh? Always handy when you can't accept people disagreeing with your stoic opinions, yet can't really argue why they're wrong. Such respect it garners.

I'm wondering now, by the look of this thread, which option will satisfy the most people: changing magick back to a point where it actually is rare, and isn't just the easy and fast way to insane power - or simply keeping it that way for the obviously numerous players who enjoy that style of play and seem incapable of accepting how anyone can speak against it.

Obviously if someone disagrees with you, the best riposte is to ignore those of their arguments that make sense, and twist the rest of their words around to make your version look more favorable. Luckily the posters who often do that tend to be disliked and disregarded.

Magick is like house rules. It doesn't match what's written on the game box, but we can always ignore the laws laid out by the game's creators and take matterrs into our own hands, doing things like we prefer it instead. After all, it doesn't affect anyone negatively, right?

[Malken]

Magick is like house rules. It doesn't match what's written on the game box, but we can always ignore the laws laid out by the game's creators and take matterrs into our own hands, doing things like we prefer it instead. After all, it doesn't affect anyone negatively, right?

The problem I think is that the creators of the game keep telling us that there's no problem and it's all in our head, yet the players, except for a few, keep wondering why there's so many non-mundane characters allowed in the game.. So as long as the creators tell us that it's all in our head, posting over and over that there's a problem won't do much..