I hate magickers, official thread.

[Nile]

Over my last few characters, I have seen a LOT of magickers, I'm talking a  very large number of them.

I'd just rather see mundanes. More fun.

[Rindan]

I think the anecdotal evidence is pretty strong that the world is swarming with magikers.  It is a pretty question to answer though.  Any staff members want to the post the number of magikers and mindbenders they see on the who during peak?

My real concern isn't magikers right now.  Eh, it is the end of the world, let people have their fun.  My real concern is that in 2.arm when we don't even have karma, the world is going to be crawling with the bastard.  If they are as buff as they are now, regardless what cultural restrictions (or lack there of) are put in place, I think it is going to really rob from the atmosphere of the game.

I don't mind strong magikers, I just want their numbers to be limited.  If we want to have unlimited numbers of magikers and turn the game more magik heavy, then I think that they should be gimped.  Whatever the case, I think that having a state of affairs where magikers are plentiful and powerful is intolerable.

Personally, I would prefer to keep magikers both strong and rare.  I really don't want to see Armageddon degrade in AD&D where I need a frigging assassin, thief, warrior, water elementalist, and fire elementalist in my party when I go kill goblins for l00t.  I like that magikers are rare and scary... but that whole "rare" party is important.  Without the 'rare' party of 'rare and scary', it becomes 'plentiful and irritating' to those that just want to be a mundane nobody.

[spawnloser]

Over my last few characters, I have seen a LOT of magickers, I'm talking a  very large number of them.

I'd just rather see mundanes. More fun.

Okay, count up the total number of mages you've seen with your last few characters...and then total up the number of non-mages.  I will GUARANTEE that you've seen more non-mages.  You've interacted with more of them and more often than any magickers, too.

The reason I think people have a problem with this IS due to how powerful magickers are.  You NOTICE the magicker more because of the impact that magicker has.  Magickers have more impact due to the abilities they posess and that the mundanes do not.  That's the way it is, and I'd rather not see it change.

What I would like to see is more magickers giving explanation for what they do through something (an emote or a say as they start doing what they do), and this is VERY much directed at those that can accomplish invisibility or the equivalent.  Most problems I have are when they just start casting from their hidden state without preamble.  It's kind of hard to scare people away from your secret sanctuary unless you leave some survivors.

Oh, and Rindan, anecdotal evidence is NOT indicative of actual numbers.  It's indicative of perceptions.

Armaddict, the same thing goes for you that I said to Nile.  You may not be exaggerating the number of mages you meet, but you are discounting the number of mundanes you meet too.

Fathi, same thing too.  They're not a maximum, like you claim they are.  If they were a maximum, you'd be accosted by magickers every moment you're logged in.  You ARE exaggerating, because you probably don't run across magickers more than 5% of the time you're logged in.  Oh, and while your character is 'mundane' by nature of the fact that your character is not a magicker, but your character is by NO means mundane when you consider the fact that a mundane, run-of-the-mill person probably has only a few coins to rub together at one point and lives their life without EVER stepping outside the gates, without ever actually interacting directly with a noble or templar, or doing anything other than their tiny little job that you and I and the rest of the playerbase would find boring.  Your character is exceptional because your character DOES rise above his/her situation and aspires to something big.  When you aspire to something big, anything and everything could go wrong, including coming across magickers with similar or opposing goals.

[Larrath]

I'd just rather see mundanes. More fun.

Okay, count up the total number of mages you've seen with your last few characters...and then total up the number of non-mages.  I will GUARANTEE that you've seen more non-mages.  You've interacted with more of them and more often than any magickers, too.[/quote]
This is exactly the problem!
The amount of magickers in the game shouldn't even be comparable to the amount of mundanes.

And to me, 'mundane' means 'not a magicker'.  Please don't go around changing accepted terms for no good reason.

But I digress.  If you counted all the mundanes and the magickers that you saw, even if you counted every hidden magicker as a mundane, you'd still get a ratio around, say, one mage for every six characters.  If you do count the hidden magickers, you get one mage for every five (or even four) mundane characters.  And these mundane characters include Bynners, templars, merchants and aides and far-away tribals.
That ratio is simply not good.  It should be around one mage for every twelve or so mundane characters - if 60 people are on, then five magickers running around causing havoc should be enough.

The reason I think people have a problem with this IS due to how powerful magickers are.  You NOTICE the magicker more because of the impact that magicker has.  Magickers have more impact due to the abilities they posess and that the mundanes do not.

Yes, this is the reason.  Most people seem to feel that their mundane magick-fearing ranger or warrior is made completely irrelevant by the veritable sea of powerful, high-impact characters.  Magickers are supposed to be an impact, but that impact shouldn't be so great as to trivialize and nullify non-magickers.  In addition, it's very dull and silly for a character to be scared to death of magickers even though they run into one four times every day.  It's realistic, sure, but it also makes for very limited and boring roleplay.
If your ranger sees that there are magickers in the Grey Forest, he can hunt in the Scrub.  But what happens if there are magickers in the Grey Forest, the Scrub, the Plains beyond, the North Road, the Red Desert, the Tablelands and the area around Luir's?  You have to go somewhere, since this is a game after all.

What I would like to see is more magickers giving explanation for what they do through something (an emote or a say as they start doing what they do), and this is VERY much directed at those that can accomplish invisibility or the equivalent.  Most problems I have are when they just start casting from their hidden state without preamble.  It's kind of hard to scare people away from your secret sanctuary unless you leave some survivors.

More emoting and less killing-happiness from magickers (and non-magickers as well) is cool and great and awesome, but that isn't what will resolve the problem of overpopulation.


There are too many magickers.  This is most likely caused by the coming of Arm 2.  I personally know that since the announcement came, I've stored my mundane mage-hater and started working on playing all the interesting types that I won't be able to play later (read: magickers).

[Lizzie]

A thought that might calm some of the panic:

It is possible, that the magicker who killed your bed-mate yesterday is dead, and the magicker you're seeing today is a different one. It is possible, that there really aren't that many mages at any given point, but rather, a very swift shift in living/dead mage PCs. So, one day there's 10 of them, the next day, 3 die off and at the same time, 3 more are approved. Bumps back up to 10, and it just gives the impression that there's all these dozens of magickers running around, when in actuality there are just a couple handsful but a few keep dying and a few keep genning at regular intervals.

I can think of only 4 characters that I am absolutely positive are mages, that my PC has met. I can think of perhaps another 4 or 5 that I'm suspicious of, but don't really know for sure and have no evidence to prove one way or another. That's world-wide, in the entire scope of the terrain my character has experienced, during play times that range from early morning EST to late night. Assuming that I haven't been everywhere in the game, and haven't logged on at every possible hour of play time, double that total and you get a whopping - 18 mages out of how many PCs in the entire game (not just peak, I mean total)?

I think it's just perception.

[HoD]

Hmm, most likely the number of magickers flying around is because of the ending of arm 1. People want to play what they want to play? And I suppose alot of people have wanted to play magickers.

Also, from what I remember, magickers are easy to become "powerful" with, in the sense you CAN lock yourself away from the world and come out only when your powerful enough, or whatever. With the end of arm1 coming in quickly (3 months people!) My guess is people are opting for magickers so they can have a somewhat powerful char for the final ending, rather then warrior #1039 who has trouble with a kank fly.

[Hymwen]

Can't we all just stop whining and play the game? Sheesh, there's only a few months of it left. Does it really fuckin' matter?

And some people wonder why we're continually losing players. I believe an attitude like that contributes a lot to the somewhat common feeling of "why bother playing the last x months if they're gonna leave the game to rot while working on the new one?".

[Seeker]

There are too many magickers.  This is most likely caused by the coming of Arm 2.  I personally know that since the announcement came, I've stored my mundane mage-hater and started working on playing all the interesting types that I won't be able to play later (read: magickers).

I believe this statement is a good summation, and I don't think that Larrath is wrong or alone in his decision.  The gameworld has changed, and it is not likely to swing back.  

The perceived effect?  The familiar mundane atmosphere of 1.Arm is already in its final death throes.


Seeker

[moab]

magicker with cool spells != powerful

[Krath]

Once again, I agree completely with X-D. The whole Protecting of the land thing, fucking
retarted. I dont care if it is in your to immediately kill someone for being on "your" Land,
Fucking RP.

[Hot_Dancer]

Lets see. Out of active players I've seen in my area play over the last week, if I counted between the split of magical and mundane characters that were visible in the area more than one RL day of the week it would be:

5 Mages
4 Mundanes

Of course, by this time next week those numbers will fluctuate due to various reasons but I don't expect the ratio to change much.

I don't really hate mages. I'd rather have their interaction than none at all, I don't want my careless, grumpy morning opinions here to make anyone uncomfortable that interacts with my character in the game. I have enjoyed some good roleplay with them.

Hot Dancer

[Malken]

The problem with thinking that by killing a magicker, you rid the world of it, is that the person you just killed probably will just go ahead and make ANOTHER magicker, because now they know how to play the role and is curious about the other spells he or she didn't get to see..

There's just no restrictions, you can make as many magickers as you want if you have the karma.. I really doubt that an application has ever been refused because an admin wrote, "Sorry, there's currently too many Rukkians in game right now.."?

Also, it's so easy to make money in a couple of places I know of that you have to wonder if these places are not known to a huge percentage of the magickers by now, that wants to play non-gemmed ones and know that they won't be hunted there if they try just a little to remain unknown.

There's one place in the world where I KNOW you can just sit on your butt all day and make a fortune just by staying inside the walls, if you select the right subclass, and anyone that goes to that place often knows what I'm talking about.. How many 'mundane-looking' characters with the same subclass do you spot in that place? It's almost hilarous, if not sad, at times.. You all know they're magickers, perhaps your character doesn't, but you as a player just knows it.

It's not just a matter of magickers taking huge risks to survive anymore, it's a matter of the game made it so easy to survive and pile up coins that anyone can survive easily just by staying in the same safe area.. Why play a hunter and take risks dying every day when you can just play a magicker and make a small fortune if you just know a few tricks and grow in power pretty easily? I know two places in the world where you can do that at the moment.

Before, you knew that if you picked a non-gemmed magicker, you'd really have a hard time for a couple of months, you'd have to go out and seek your water and know a good spot or two where you could gather a few fruits to survive.. Now? No way, you sit in a tavern and you either pick a few easily obtainable items to sell once in a while or spam craft with your subclass and you can be a non-gemmed magicker loaded with coins who doesn't have to worry about a single thing, except from being seen casting in his luxurious bedroom if he's really an unlucky one...

[LoD]

People are arguing about whether or not there are a lot of magickers.  There are.  There usually are.  There are probably more people playing magickers at a given moment, as Rindan noted, than people playing city elves and dwarves combined.

The total head count is not the problem, yet.  The problem is that the culture does not provide those magickers something better to do with their time, and promotes hostile and often fatal encounters going both ways.

Enforcing restrictions on the physical number of mage characters is one way that the perception could be changed, but it doesn't address the true problem.  Changing the culture, or ensuring that the Arm 2 culture doesn't likewise suffer from the same affliction, will have a more lasting and profound effect.  Mages need more viable roles where they can cooperate with mundanes.  Perhaps not directly, but certainly not opposed.

There needs to be a greater interdependence between mundane and magickal forces in the world, where one does not consistently trump the other or become the clear and obvious choice.  Mages used to not be the clear and obvious choice because they were in the minority or unavailable, but that seems to become less and less the norm.  And when you have an entire set of geographical regions react violently to magick without having any inherent magickal protection, you begin seeing a very limited and repetitive series of encounters.

My sincere hope is that the problem is eventually attacked from both sides, where the physical number of mages diminishes as their social opportunities and liberties increase.  It has been an easy trap for Immortals to select magickal entities to further quests because they take less time and explanation to develop.  Mundanes take actual effort and interaction to achieve similar levels of power, while a sorcerer just takes time, food, and water.  It's an easier background story.

And since the plots were driven by magickal entities, magickal characters were more likely not only to be involved, but to make a sustained impact.  Some of these issues will naturally be addressed by the planned shift in player participation in Arm 2.  Characters should have more power, and more ability to make changes/decisions, which will remove some of the magickal superpower components.  However, the current mage would be a monster amidst men in a gameworld of small outposts, settlements, and tribes.  It's my fervent hope that the culture and the class choices address both of these issues in a way that doesn't trivialize the role of the mundane player as many have expressed they feel in today's game.

-LoD

[jhunter]

Magickers are supposed to be an impact, but that impact shouldn't be so great as to trivialize and nullify non-magickers.

Read as: I can't stand the fact that there's a bunch of beings that are potentially more dangerous than mine, therefore there are too many magickers and I'm tired of running into them.
No offense intended at all but this is typical of the argument that I'm seeing about it. I honestly feel with all my heart that 75% of it is people's personal issues with magick itself, or frustration at both the gameworld and the code being against them just crushing magickers like they would other characters they might run into outside. Sort of a: Well, at least if they're mundanes proper rp doesn't require me to automatically be afraid of them and be on the "losing" end from the getgo and now should I choose to disregard it and jump them anyway, I'll likely lose because they are powerful enough to do something about it.

Magickers in no way trivialize the impact of mundanes, in fact mundanes have alot more opportunity to make an impact on the gameworld than magickers. More changes have been made to the gameworld due to the actions and efforts of mundane characters and mundane characters are hot -hated- or -feared- by all. (Real big hindrance if you want to make an impact on the gameworld.) They can work for and with those who have as much power if not more than most -any- magicker.
I know for a fact that I've had much more impact on the world as a whole with my mundane pcs than I have any magicker. I've also seen alot more changes in the gameworld brought about by mundanes than I've seen from any magicker.

[LoD]

Read as: I can't stand the fact that there's a bunch of beings that are potentially more dangerous than mine, therefore there are too many magickers and I'm tired of running into them.

Read: I'm jhunter and cannot comprehend a single reason why people would ever criticize magickers besides one singular idea that players don't ever want another player to be more powerful than them.  Again.

Stop this.  This line of thinking.  This erroneous and stubborn grasp on issues that aren't being described.  No one is saying they want to be able to KILL magickers.  No one is saying that they have problems because magicker characters can become more powerful than their mundane character.

If you botherred to read and absorb even a scrap of what is being said, you would begin to understand that many mundane players feel as if they cannot participate in a given plot or quest without often being introduced to magickal participants.  I can't believe that you honestly cannot see the permeation of magikers in the curent game, as you claim.  

My last character played in Tuluk.  I would see something magickal every RL week.  -Every- RL week.  Here are a few examples:

1. A magicker attacked a friend inside the city-state using their magicks.

2. A magicker ran through a grove where my character was chopping wood about 10 leagues out of the gate.  And there was nothing subtle about his display of magickal power.

3. A magicker assaulted my employees in the grasslands.

4. A magicker approached us in the same grove, invisible, and demanded we leave because they were the "Protector of the grove."

5. An invisible magicker was spotted on the North Road.

6. A magicker was seen by my character moving through the grasslands with visible and full displays of magickal ability.

7. A templar organized no less than 3 hunts where magickers were physically seen and chased through the area.

I didn't go out of my way to find magickers.  I didn't visit completely remote areas of the gameworld in hopes of finding them.  I moved on roads between cities, across small sections of commonly travelled hunting grounds, and throughout the wilderness areas surrounding the sprawling city-states.  And that was just what was witnessed by one character.

And did I ever attack one?  No.  Did I ever kill one?  No.  Did I ever chase one around by myself?  No.  

In a land where magicks are supposed to be rare and mysterious, they were anything but that.  They were a consistent part of our weekly activities, and that is just my personal experience.  It may vary, but I know that other players, even city-based characters, have had just as many or more experiences with magickers or psionicists.

For once, some people want to be part of a quest that doesn't involve some sorcerous master, minions of undead, legions of magickally influenced beasts, vampires, invisible voices, or any number of these magickal elements.  When Imms use magickal characters to further these plot lines, it often dooms such a hope from the start.  People seem to think that if it doesn't have shiny sparks, flames, or invisibility, that it's boring.

There are many of us that thoroughly enjoy the very mundane interplay surrounding governmental politics, econonmic struggle, martial conquest, terrirtorial disputes, and cultural/racial tension.  When magick hangs thick enough to influence many of these, it becomes tiresome.  It's similar to having that unwanted and obnoxious cousin following you and your friends around no matter how much you try to avoid him.  

It's not because I want to kill magickers, and it's not because I don't want anyone more powerful than myself.  There are plenty of mundane people far more powerful, whether by position or by ability, than my character.  I don't NEED someone who can conjure magickal fire to present obstacles to my goals.  What I want is to play amidst my peers and enjoy the challenges of a simple and mundane plan set in motion without some magickal element being used to drive it forward.

The issue is that magickal entities pushing many of the current plots in the game has seemingly become the standard rather than the exception.  And that frustration is what you see come up on the boards from time to time.  It has nothing to do with being able to kill magickers, or being killed by them in return -- but more simply, that they are involved at all.

-LoD

[BuNutzCola]

While I admit that it seems plots have involved more magick recently, I suppose a lot of it ties into the end of the world, and that I imagine there is a lot of Magickal reasons for such.

But aside from that, one of the most major events I've seen in a while had absolutely nothing to do with magic, and was good old mundane effort.

In the past six months or so I've been playing, I think I can conclusively say I came across roughly 8 people I -knew/think- were magickers, and no mindbenders. As opposed to probably 50+ mundanes easily. Of that, at least half the magickers were gemmed, so I don't really get the feeling that we're overrun with them.

And in all but two encounters, I found the mundanes to be much scarier, though without a doubt the Magicker encounters scared me willy-nilly.

And while I've only played two magicker characters of the same element, at least in my experience, that particular element wasn't incredibly powerful, nor did I ever once think "Hmph, mundane, this should be a breeze." When I was coming into a conflict.

Hell, I'm embarassed to admit it but after three days with one magicker I still nearly died to a cactus snake, something I'd -never- see happen with any of my mundanes save maybe a merchant (which I've never played)

[Tarx]

Ah. LoD's post made a lot of sense to me, I can see where that comes from now.  Thanks for clarifying that, maybe some others may see your point more clearly now as well.

As a personal opinion, I don't think any of us except for the imms can really see the whole picture on this.  I do recall a similar opinion about "d00d there r 2 many magick3rs" a few years back, which would make me think this is cyclical.  A post supporting this theory:
Dakurus wrote:

There's another potential objective that would be nice to solve with a similar system, but we may give up some choice to do it.

At least in the current Arm we have a huge tendency for cyclical population of clans, tribes, houses, and so on. The reasons for it are many, (popularity, strong leader, fad, interest, mass killings, etc) however it is disappointing in that without PC's, the npc/vnpc strength and interaction from other PC/clan viewpoints is often ignored or overlooked. Ideally we'd have more consistent populations.

So many times we have no X tribe in Y location.
Or only the east side of the rinth has PCs, or M house, but not N.
Currently this is handled for high (noble/etc) roles by Staff asking for apps, but the rest is player hired.

And perhaps in Arm2 this would be less desired, but I suspect consistency in any environment would be nice.

I think everyone's made the points they are going to make about this, really...I don't see anything new coming up anymore.

[Hymwen]

For as long as I've played (a bit over a year) there hasn't been a time where I wasn't thinking that there were too many magickers. Practically every one of my characters has been involuntarily involved with magick in one way or another, without trying/wanting to. I do play primarily in Allanak so a larger amount of magickers is to be expected, but it was only slightly less apparent when playing in other areas. My 3-day d-elf in the Tablelands had close encounters with I think 4 different magickers. My Tuluki PC(s) met them in the grasslands just outside the gates on a daily basis. In Allanak you'll often see as many gemmers as non-gemmers in the Barrel at any given time.

One problem is that restricting people from playing what they want isn't going to make those magick-favoring players happy. It needs to be so that playing a magicker isn't so damn appealing. It should be something that's challenging and difficult enough that a large percentage of the playerbase doesn't play them, and so that noone plays them over and over again one after another.

No, you probably can't max out a magicker in 3 days. I'm not sure if anyone said that, but a lot of people sure are acting as if someone did. Maybe I missed it. But you sure as hell can reach extremely potent power or defensive abilities (often both) within a handful of days, enough that only a select few things that a mundane player can do will reliably kill you. Paralyze poison arrows and one-hit backstabs, yeah... but a straight-up fight against all but the strongest of warriors, no way. Magickers should become monsters with time, but not within a week of logged play. It doesn't take a "maxed out" magicker to kill just about anyone in two spells, or escape in ways that a mundane character has no chance of preventing. The fact is that if you just want to be super powerful and defeat other players, playing a magicker is the best way to go, especially if you want that kind of deadliness before 20 days played.

[spawnloser]

First thing's first, Larrath, you misquoted.  If you'd like to fix it, what you screwed up on was cutting out the original quote tag that was in my post, for the quote I'd taken to respond to.  Just letting you know so that you can fix it to save on confusion.  I know when I first looked at your post, I was like, "Wait, I didn't say that."

Okay, count up the total number of mages you've seen with your last few characters...and then total up the number of non-mages.  I will GUARANTEE that you've seen more non-mages.  You've interacted with more of them and more often than any magickers, too.

This is exactly the problem!
The amount of magickers in the game shouldn't even be comparable to the amount of mundanes.

No, you see, you're forgetting all those characters you walked past in the town but didn't actually stop and talk to, and all those people in X bar that you just walked past instead of going into.  You could EASILY live a life with a character that wasn't involved in a 'magicker plot.'  Don't go to where magickers are in abundance, outside of the areas that don't tolerate them.  If you play in Tuluk and never leave the gates, in all likeliness, you'll never even SEE a magicker except the odd one hiding his/her abilities while in Tuluk.  Those you probably won't notice just as much as the mundanes that you also aren't noticing due to their lowered impact on the world.

And to me, 'mundane' means 'not a magicker'.  Please don't go around changing accepted terms for no good reason.

(sigh)  I'm not changing any definitions.  If you read through what I said and understood it, you'd understand that I'm saying that your character isn't "mundane" in the normal sense of the word, the definition provided in the dictionary, but is exceptional in that s/he rises above his/her normal allotment in life...which all those NPCs and VNPCs are not doing.  You're not playing 'your average Zalanthan,' so don't expect to have the experiences of your average Zalanthan.  If you want to have the experiences of your average Zalanthan, go dig clay all day.  You'll probably never have to worry about a magicker.

But I digress.  If you counted all the mundanes and the magickers that you saw, even if you counted every hidden magicker as a mundane, you'd still get a ratio around, say, one mage for every six characters.  If you do count the hidden magickers, you get one mage for every five (or even four) mundane characters.  And these mundane characters include Bynners, templars, merchants and aides and far-away tribals.
That ratio is simply not good.  It should be around one mage for every twelve or so mundane characters - if 60 people are on, then five magickers running around causing havoc should be enough.

Again, as I and others have said, I think you're exaggerating the ratio.  As I said, I'd expect it to be closer to a one magicker for twenty characters.  You just notice the magickers more.

The reason I think people have a problem with this IS due to how powerful magickers are.  You NOTICE the magicker more because of the impact that magicker has.  Magickers have more impact due to the abilities they posess and that the mundanes do not.

Yes, this is the reason.  Most people seem to feel that their mundane magick-fearing ranger or warrior is made completely irrelevant by the veritable sea of powerful, high-impact characters.  Magickers are supposed to be an impact, but that impact shouldn't be so great as to trivialize and nullify non-magickers.  In addition, it's very dull and silly for a character to be scared to death of magickers even though they run into one four times every day.  It's realistic, sure, but it also makes for very limited and boring roleplay.
If your ranger sees that there are magickers in the Grey Forest, he can hunt in the Scrub.  But what happens if there are magickers in the Grey Forest, the Scrub, the Plains beyond, the North Road, the Red Desert, the Tablelands and the area around Luir's?  You have to go somewhere, since this is a game after all.

Yeah, so?  Magickers have nowhere to go, so you're surprised to see them claiming or at least living in the wilds?  Don't go gallavanting around all over the world.  If you see a magicker in the territory you're planning to hunt in, run and come back later.  They're not logged in 24/7, are they?

What I would like to see is more magickers giving explanation for what they do through something (an emote or a say as they start doing what they do), and this is VERY much directed at those that can accomplish invisibility or the equivalent.  Most problems I have are when they just start casting from their hidden state without preamble.  It's kind of hard to scare people away from your secret sanctuary unless you leave some survivors.

More emoting and less killing-happiness from magickers (and non-magickers as well) is cool and great and awesome, but that isn't what will resolve the problem of overpopulation.

Again, I will say, "Perceived problem."

On to addressing other points...

(snipped response to jhunter)
If you botherred to read and absorb even a scrap of what is being said, you would begin to understand that many mundane players feel as if they cannot participate in a given plot or quest without often being introduced to magickal participants.  I can't believe that you honestly cannot see the permeation of magikers in the curent game, as you claim.  

My last character played in Tuluk.  I would see something magickal every RL week.  -Every- RL week.  Here are a few examples:

1. A magicker attacked a friend inside the city-state using their magicks.

2. A magicker ran through a grove where my character was chopping wood about 10 leagues out of the gate.  And there was nothing subtle about his display of magickal power.

3. A magicker assaulted my employees in the grasslands.

4. A magicker approached us in the same grove, invisible, and demanded we leave because they were the "Protector of the grove."

5. An invisible magicker was spotted on the North Road.

6. A magicker was seen by my character moving through the grasslands with visible and full displays of magickal ability.

7. A templar organized no less than 3 hunts where magickers were physically seen and chased through the area.

And these are major plots that magickers are having grave influence on?  A magicker being seen in the distance or as s/he ran past, being hunted, hunting you or a friend or demanding your leaving is NOT a major plot event.  Just because someone sees a magicker while doing something doesn't mean that magickers are dominating plotlines, like everyone seems to think they are.  I think this is part of the issue.  Someone sees a magicker and now everything about what they're doing is influenced by a magicker and now the plot is ruined...or some such tripe.

(snip)

For once, some people want to be part of a quest that doesn't involve some sorcerous master, minions of undead, legions of magickally influenced beasts, vampires, invisible voices, or any number of these magickal elements.  When Imms use magickal characters to further these plot lines, it often dooms such a hope from the start.  People seem to think that if it doesn't have shiny sparks, flames, or invisibility, that it's boring.

There are many of us that thoroughly enjoy the very mundane interplay surrounding governmental politics, econonmic struggle, martial conquest, terrirtorial disputes, and cultural/racial tension.  When magick hangs thick enough to influence many of these, it becomes tiresome.  It's similar to having that unwanted and obnoxious cousin following you and your friends around no matter how much you try to avoid him.  

It's not because I want to kill magickers, and it's not because I don't want anyone more powerful than myself.  There are plenty of mundane people far more powerful, whether by position or by ability, than my character.  I don't NEED someone who can conjure magickal fire to present obstacles to my goals.  What I want is to play amidst my peers and enjoy the challenges of a simple and mundane plan set in motion without some magickal element being used to drive it forward.

The issue is that magickal entities pushing many of the current plots in the game has seemingly become the standard rather than the exception.  And that frustration is what you see come up on the boards from time to time.  It has nothing to do with being able to kill magickers, or being killed by them in return -- but more simply, that they are involved at all.

In response to all of this, I ask, "Have any of you actually READ the history documentation?!?"  Seriously, magick is what makes the world go 'round.  Just because a small percentage of the population has it or knows much about it doesn't mean that those that have it aren't the major movers in the world.  It's plainly evident that this is the case, actually.  Tek, Muk, the Dragon, dragonthralls, the Cataclysm...I could go on, but I'd rather people read the documentation themselves.

You want a mundane plot that doesn't involve magickers doing magicky things?  Do something without trying to change the world.  Have a bardic competition.  I've seen those in both Tuluk and Allanak, though I'll admit less frequently in Allanak.  Throw a party for socialites with some competition involved.  Hell, just have some sort of competition and disallow magickers.  Be prejudiced like you should be.

These kinds of things make fun for the mundanes, making it attractive to be a mundane.  Continue these things and do them more often and you'll attract more people to playing the mundane roles instead of trying to set some arbitrary, silly (in my mind) and potentially just as problematic system to limit something just because some people are having a hissy over it.

[joyofdiscord]

I think the speed of development of magickers vs. mundanes is not quite so different as everyone is trying to claim either.  I for one have never branched even a single spell within three days.  Even within five days I would consider a gift from the skill gods.  Furthermore, it most certainly does not take a million bajillion days to make a mundane character dangerous.  I played a burglar who was a pretty effective killer after about the 10-12 day mark and only got progressively more powerful from there.  He could have been deadly much sooner, but he was a very late bloomer in developing some of his skills due to life circumstances, and he never branched backstab in his entire career.  Want to guess how long it took me to get a magicker anyhere near the point where I could even think about killing a PC, or for that matter, do anything but flee if I ran into trouble?  Probably a little past 12 days, and without wasting time.  It wasn't exactly the "killingest" element, but not the "nicest" one either.

Magickers accomplish their goals in more spectacular ways than mundanes, so it seems like they get powerful faster.  Stealthies accomplish their goals with little fanfare or notice, but they can be pretty competent at what they do from 5 days onward.  All the mundane characters I've played developed and branched much faster and easier than any magicker.  Mundanes tend to branch without you even thinking about it, just with natural use of the skills.  Every stealthy I've played has had that nigh-untouchable feeling of power before 10 days of play.  Only once have I ever had to intentionally work at branching a mundane skill, but branching spells has involved joyless grinding in almost every case, just to achieve the modest pace of growth I have mentioned.

Seriously, if you want a character that is survivable and becomes useful and versatile quickly, roll a warrior, burglar, or ranger.  If you want a handful of spectacular powers that you can only use in limited circumstances (if you even live long enough to branch and develop them, which I'd say 1/2 to 2/3 of gemmed mages don't), while being useless at every normal activity and suffering from heaps of exploitable vulnerabilities, roll a magicker.

[Hymwen]

Spawnloser, I think LoD's point was that mundane players would like to be involved in RPT-type events that aren't just pointless drinking parties or singing competitions, without knowing that it's unlikely that magick isn't the main aspect of the plot. The history link you provided may state that magick is "what makes the world go 'round", but the documentation also says that it's rare and mysterious. It has been a long time since I had a character who didn't run into magick on a weekly basis, and it seems that many have the same "perceived problem".

There's magick everywhere I look, to the point where I can't even ignore it because it gets thrown in my character's face. My current clan is involved in a plot that is reeking of magick. I know there's magick going on in that noble house, and that one as well. I know that merchant house has had major problems with magickers in recent past. I know that several members of that combat-orientated clan over there were killed by magickers and don't even know why. I know that you can't make a tribal territorial character without having to fend off magickers at every water-hole. Some of those things are examples, but it's what the game is like to me. Maintaining this sense of "rare and mysterious magick" is very difficult when more than half of my characters have had to deal with it (or ignore its blatant presence) relatively frequently. It would be equally hard to imagine metal being super rare if a shop in the bazaar sold it, which I believe is a fair comparison.

And as a snide final, I wouldn't have as much against magickers if it wasn't because so many of them have made me wonder how the player got karma or special-app approval for a restricted guild.

[LoD]

And these are major plots that magickers are having grave influence on?  A magicker being seen in the distance or as s/he ran past, being hunted, hunting you or a friend or demanding your leaving is NOT a major plot event.  Just because someone sees a magicker while doing something doesn't mean that magickers are dominating plotlines, like everyone seems to think they are.  I think this is part of the issue.  Someone sees a magicker and now everything about what they're doing is influenced by a magicker and now the plot is ruined...or some such tripe.

Did I reference those events as being indicative of the "major plots" in which magickers played a role?  It should be clear by the text preceding the list of events that I was demonstrating how my character noticed the permeation of magick within the mundane portions of the game.  

It's so difficult not to reply to your posts with the same patronizing, condescending, and insulting tone.  However, I don't believe that style of writing is either productive or warranted, and while I cannot claim to always be innocent, I can only hope that you will consider this and refrain from using it in future posts.

In response to all of this, I ask, "Have any of you actually READ the history documentation?!?"

I don't happen to believe that the same magickal agents and/or forces responsible for such events as the Cataclysm, destruction of Steinal, or the Dragon turning Zalanthas into the desert world it is today have even a remote interest in what much of the world does on a regular basis.  Many of the plots people are speaking of aren't trying to change the world.  They aren't even trying to change their given city/village.

I was just trying to complete mundane tasks around a city-state that is known to hate and hunt magickers, and I'd still run into them on a regular basis.  I wasn't in the distant wilderness where magickers gather.  I wasn't out looking for trouble in locations where I shouldn't have been -- in fact, that's what the magicker's were doing.

You can reference my previous posts for a detailed description of my arguements on how the current culture and code changes have affected the role of magick in the game, as well as why those changes have had a   negative impact on the player's perception of magick in the gameworld.  You'll find that my arguements do not deny that the world has always been affected at its highest level by magicks, nor do they call for an elimination of magick from plots that would obviously concern them.

There are improvements that could be made, and many of the complaints, frustrations, and fears regarding the role of magick and magickers in Arm 2 demonstrated in this thread are both pertinent and warranted.  Consider the motive as well as the content, and you may come to different conclusions.

-LoD

[X-D]

First, I want to say, I voted no opinion because I don't HATE magickers, But I do hate so damm many of them.

Joyofdiscord, 12days play? If I really try I can take ANY mage class to uber deadly in 3 or less, I can do it in 5 if I spend 80% of my time NOT practicing. *DISCLAIMER* I am not saying it is right and proper to do it in 3 or less. I normaly just work really hard on getting the one or two SAVE MY ASS spells that most mages get then let everything happen from there.


Spawn...come on man, you are not giving people enough credit. Just because they are not staff does not mean that they cannot use the WHO command then do simple math.

Here is a bit of fact for you. Inside the last two weeks I logged my PC in, was in the barrel, now, when I log in I do score/stat/time/look self and who. I logged in at 7:50pm mountain time, there were 36 people on. moved to the main room of the barrel, 2 gemmed at the bar, Alright, we are currently at  1 of 18 is a mage, time was before dawn so started for the stables because my PC was heading north. passed another gemmer on the way, now we are at 1 of 12 is a mage. Got mount, waited for dawn, headed out. Hit the salt flats and saw a mage with spells on, possible it could be one of the 3 gemmers I already saw, but I doubt it. So, I'm counting, We are at 1 in 9. stopped in luirs where I saw another gemmed, this one I know was not one of the other 4, did a who, 37 players. 1 in 7.4. Continued on north, between Luirs and tuluk I saw more, and one of them at least was a sorcerer. Total now is 8 sightings, 2 of which might have been repeated. Thats 1 in 4.6. Got to tuluk, it is now 8:40pm(ish). Who says there are 38 people on. come dawn again, head out on the grasses, who states 31 people on, saw two mages, I'm sure they were repeats so not counting them, within 7 rooms of the plains gates BTW. Farther out see one more that I know was not a repeat. Returned to town and logged off at around 9:30 or so. Less then two hours, magickal sightings totalling more then 11, lets call it 9 mages with an average total number of people on at 34. Thats 1 mage for every 3.7 players in a two hour time frame. If anything, Larrath's estimate was conservative.

Go back one year when I was playing a mage and  I KNOW there was more then 20 active mages playing because I was playing one myself had a group and interacted with no less then 3 other groups and that was just the ungemmed.

LoD...Good posts.

[jhunter]

Read as: I can't stand the fact that there's a bunch of beings that are potentially more dangerous than mine, therefore there are too many magickers and I'm tired of running into them.

Read: I'm jhunter and cannot comprehend a single reason why people would ever criticize magickers besides one singular idea that players don't ever want another player to be more powerful than them.  Again.

Stop this.  This line of thinking.  This erroneous and stubborn grasp on issues that aren't being described.  No one is saying they want to be able to KILL magickers.  No one is saying that they have problems because magicker characters can become more powerful than their mundane character.

If you botherred to read and absorb even a scrap of what is being said, you would begin to understand that many mundane players feel as if they cannot participate in a given plot or quest without often being introduced to magickal participants.  I can't believe that you honestly cannot see the permeation of magikers in the curent game, as you claim.  

My last character played in Tuluk.  I would see something magickal every RL week.  -Every- RL week.  Here are a few examples:

1. A magicker attacked a friend inside the city-state using their magicks.

2. A magicker ran through a grove where my character was chopping wood about 10 leagues out of the gate.  And there was nothing subtle about his display of magickal power.

3. A magicker assaulted my employees in the grasslands.

4. A magicker approached us in the same grove, invisible, and demanded we leave because they were the "Protector of the grove."

5. An invisible magicker was spotted on the North Road.

6. A magicker was seen by my character moving through the grasslands with visible and full displays of magickal ability.

7. A templar organized no less than 3 hunts where magickers were physically seen and chased through the area.

I didn't go out of my way to find magickers.  I didn't visit completely remote areas of the gameworld in hopes of finding them.  I moved on roads between cities, across small sections of commonly travelled hunting grounds, and throughout the wilderness areas surrounding the sprawling city-states.  And that was just what was witnessed by one character.

And did I ever attack one?  No.  Did I ever kill one?  No.  Did I ever chase one around by myself?  No.  

In a land where magicks are supposed to be rare and mysterious, they were anything but that.  They were a consistent part of our weekly activities, and that is just my personal experience.  It may vary, but I know that other players, even city-based characters, have had just as many or more experiences with magickers or psionicists.

For once, some people want to be part of a quest that doesn't involve some sorcerous master, minions of undead, legions of magickally influenced beasts, vampires, invisible voices, or any number of these magickal elements.  When Imms use magickal characters to further these plot lines, it often dooms such a hope from the start.  People seem to think that if it doesn't have shiny sparks, flames, or invisibility, that it's boring.

There are many of us that thoroughly enjoy the very mundane interplay surrounding governmental politics, econonmic struggle, martial conquest, terrirtorial disputes, and cultural/racial tension.  When magick hangs thick enough to influence many of these, it becomes tiresome.  It's similar to having that unwanted and obnoxious cousin following you and your friends around no matter how much you try to avoid him.  

It's not because I want to kill magickers, and it's not because I don't want anyone more powerful than myself.  There are plenty of mundane people far more powerful, whether by position or by ability, than my character.  I don't NEED someone who can conjure magickal fire to present obstacles to my goals.  What I want is to play amidst my peers and enjoy the challenges of a simple and mundane plan set in motion without some magickal element being used to drive it forward.

The issue is that magickal entities pushing many of the current plots in the game has seemingly become the standard rather than the exception.  And that frustration is what you see come up on the boards from time to time.  It has nothing to do with being able to kill magickers, or being killed by them in return -- but more simply, that they are involved at all.

-LoD

Thanks for stooping to personal attacks LoD. Real conducive to discussion.

I honestly feel with all my heart that 75% of it is people's personal issues with magick itself

Note: I did specify 75%, not all, everyone, 100% or any such absurd thing. I am allowed to post my opinion and not be attacked for it thankyouverymuch.
What that means, since you seem to have an issue comprehending the viewpoints or opinions of anyone that disagrees with you on the subject and keep clinging to the stubborn and rather naive stance that "everyone is just being straight forward and none of the people posting such have an ulterior motive for chiming in agreement with something that will help to further their own goals", is that I -am- saying I believe some people who aren't actually experiencing such (since from my own personal experience I haven't seen -anything- like it) are exaggerating to help turn the game toward their own personal ideal of what it should be.

It's not because I want to kill magickers, and it's not because I don't want anyone more powerful than myself.

If you aren't one of these mundanes, then don't respond personally. However, just because YOU wouldn't run around the thornlands hideyholes, caves on the fringes of tablelands, or deep in the forests, or other ruins frequented by magickers doesn't mean that all mundanes don't. They do. And they are representative of the types of mundanes I am speaking of here, who don't respect these boundaries and, thus, invite and warrant the often aggressive attention of the magicker populace they should hope to avoid.

Does anyone else spot the irony here?  :roll:

[Nile]

I think all the gickers is taking away from city life a lot.

I log in, see theres 50 players in the world...Figure I head to a tavern for some interaction, out of 6 taverns I check, not a single one has a PC in there.

Am I missing some secret RPTs or what