I hate magickers, official thread.

[LoD]

Note: I did specify 75%, not all, everyone, 100% or any such absurd thing. I am allowed to post my opinion and not be attacked for it thankyouverymuch.

I apologize if you feel insulted, jhunter.  It really wasn't my intention, and I agree that it isn't conducive to discussion.  However, my beef is with the same arguement that rears its ugly head every time you respond to one of these threads.  You don't address the issues people are bringing forward, instead you claim that everyone's arguements are a disguise for their true agenda -- a conspiracy to make "magehunting" easier.

I have a hard time believing that 3 out of 4 players criticize magick because they don't want anyone more powerful than their character and are tired of running into people that are.  The mere existence of templars, nobles, and other authority figures already sets most PC's up to be inferior to a healthy supply of characters in the game.

Why would these 75% focus solely on magickers and not focus on these social authority figures who hold power and sway over their PC's?  Why don't we see as many, "I hate templars." or "I hate nobles." threads if people are truly being motivated by their characters running into beings that are more powerful?

That's why I have trouble validating the arguement.  It doesn't seem to hold up logically is all.  It also seems that many people have commented that they don't mind magick, that they enjoy the magick of Armageddon, but enjoy what it brings to the game as a rare and myseterious component rather than a frequent and heavy handed plot driving tool.  And I really have to agree with many of them based solely on my experiences.

Does it really seem more likely to you that the perception people have regarding magickers is based upon 3 out of 4 characters purposefully wandering the deep portions of the wilderness in order to hunt them down?  Or is it more likely that the current game culture, especially in the northlands, provides far too few opportunities for non-violent interaction between the magicker and mundane character?  I argue for the latter.

Mages cannot be common and feared in the way you argue they should be.  Magick needs to be rare and mysterious in order to retain its sense of wonder, terror, and surprise.  The current game does not appropriately reflect that rare and mysterious status, thus, many of the players are encountering problems when interacting with magickers.  Some of them cannot seem to escape, despite being city-bound and purposefully trying to avoid magickal interaction.

It's my opinion that the Cataclysm and the alienation of magickers in the northlands was one of the worst things to happen to the game.  There's nothing that can be done about that now, except to view and discuss the results and consider them when designing the new game.  And that's what I hope results from all this.

-LoD

[spawnloser]

Hymwen:

Don't play a bard then, if you think that everything they do is pointless.

Oh, and as I've said, stop playing exceptional characters if you don't want to run across magick.  If you go outside your tribe's village or city's walls, expect to have to deal with the worst the world has to offer...and sometimes, that's your fellow players playing magickers that have been forced into roles that leave them in the wastes competing with all those mundane characters whose players are bitching because the magickers are there.  You don't want to see magickers?  Never leave Tuluk.  I've NEVER had a problem with coming across magickers with any character I've played in Tuluk, and if I'm not playing a tribal, nearly half my characters are Tulukis.

Again, for clarification, if you want to do something that is above and beyond what your truly average Zalanthan does in his/her life, don't expect to never come across a magicker.

LoD:

I've seen noone describe which plots have been affected, only that every plot has magickers in them.  I think this is a ridiculous statement.  As I said, there are plenty of plots that people can engage in that have nothing to do with magickal might, even though they may include magickers, those magickers aren't participating because they're magickers or to do magickal things.  The last Luirsfest, for example, had a few gemmers show up to participate, as I recall.  Did they do magicker stuff?  No.  They did the same stuff that everyone else did in the same ways.

Also, you said that magickers were affecting plots and then proceeded to list how magickers were so abundant.  I assumed you were drawing a correlation from one to the next.  If not, why mention them one after the other?

To give MY experience, though, my current character is too far removed to make any real observations with...but my previous character that lived for longer than a couple weeks was played in Tuluk and for not a short time.  I saw zero magickers until I went to Allanak on business.  I was outside ALL THE TIME.

As far as your earlier posts about how the culture has helped to create an environment that forces magickers into primarily antagonistic roles instead of letting them just live a life like everyone else?  Yeah, I've read them and agree.  That's why I didn't post a counter-point to what you said in them.  I suggest you do the same.  I'm solely arguing against what I find to be exaggerated claims and reactionary thought generated in a large part by people that just dislike magickers, as some people have actually admitted to.

Editted to add: Oh, and as others have said, and I'm sure they're right, the fact that the game is ending soon very likely has had many people rolling up magickers that they've always wanted to try and have only a limited time to do so before 1.Arm ends.  This is something that will be taken care of in the natural order of things...when 1.Arm ends.  You can't use the last 3 months as a proper gauge for measuring anything, in my opinion.  Go back a bit further for data and I might find your arguments that there have been too many more seriously.

[jhunter]

That's why I have trouble validating the arguement. It doesn't seem to hold up logically is all. It also seems that many people have commented that they don't mind magick, that they enjoy the magick of Armageddon, but enjoy what it brings to the game as a rare and myseterious component rather than a frequent and heavy handed plot driving tool. And I really have to agree with many of them based solely on my experiences.

It holds up as a logical possibility when you take into account recent events in game. It also makes it very hard for me to believe when my personal experiences have been so far removed from what people are saying is so common. I mean, if it were really that bad...wouldn't I have seen some inkling of this myself? If it were truly that bad, wouldn't we agree on some middle ground rather than there being such a wide range and variance on our experiences regarding magick? This is what makes me believe that there is truly some exaggeration of the issue going on, whatever the reasons may be.

[jhunter]

However, my beef is with the same arguement that rears its ugly head every time you respond to one of these threads.

It does because my first several mage attempts ended with my mage pc killed in their very -first- encounter with a -single- mundane pc and my pc was not the aggressor. (In fact, I've never killed a pc with a magicker.) On the side of mundanes, several times I witnessed other mundanes chasing after mages by themselves and such. I've seen pcs acting poorly toward gemmed mages, showing zero fear or superstition toward them and even open hostility without fear of retaliation. It's a real sensitive subject to me when people talk as if mundanes are somehow getting the shaft. It's a real challenge to play a mage in this game, outlaw or gemmed for many different reasons that have nothing to do with how "powerful" you are. Even with all the potential for power, I still find the mages to be one of the most difficult things in the game to play.

[Pantoufle]

I think a great deal of the problem centering round the current strength of magick based guilds is how it compares to the other powers that be.  After a while, great merchant houses and noble houses do not feel very powerful at all (yet they should) when surrounded by a host of well-practised mages swarming throughout the game.  I say this and yet I'm not going anywhere near the argument that there are too many mages or that they are too powerful.  I'd just like to see other, equally threatening forces with actual coded powers besides that of the mages of the game.  A mage needs one thing only: skills.  A clan which allegedly is supposed to be powerful and influential on the other hand needs actual players, otherwise its power is only virtual and, consequently, no one really fears or respects them.  Because, honestly, who would you really fear hunting you more?  House Whomever or that nameless renegade mage you have just upset?

[Hymwen]

Again, for clarification, if you want to do something that is above and beyond what your truly average Zalanthan does in his/her life, don't expect to never come across a magicker.

Nice of you to assume things that I never said. I wonder where you got the idea that I'm playing exceptional characters... I think anyone who knows me well can agree that if there's one thing I don't do, it's play the kind of character that you described. Is it "bad" to:

Be in the Tablelands as a Soh elf?
Hunt in the grasslands as a Tuluki?
Go mining or salt grebbing as an Allanaki?

I've seen plenty of illegal magicks even inside the walls of Allanak. Almost every one of my characters have had to deal with it in some way or another - my current one especially is forced into a plot that is so obviously magickal all the way through, and it's just one example of how it (to me) is absolutely impossible to consider magick rare and mysterious. I'm not saying that magick shouldn't exist, but I am in absolute disagreement with those who say that it's not too blatant and common in the world. You don't need to roam the deep deserts or dark forests to see magick frequently.

[Khorm]

Again, for clarification, if you want to do something that is above and beyond what your truly average Zalanthan does in his/her life, don't expect to never come across a magicker.

Nice of you to assume things that I never said. I wonder where you got the idea that I'm playing exceptional characters... I think anyone who knows me well can agree that if there's one thing I don't do, it's play the kind of character that you described.

If your character is getting involved in 'plot driven by magick', then he's most definitely doing something above and beyond what your truly average Zalanthan does in his/her life.

[Hymwen]

No, she's doing what a very large percentage of the city-state of Allanak is doing, actually. But I won't go into detail for obvious reasons. My point is that it certainly doesn't take anything out of the ordinary to get involved with magicks (unless I've been extremely unlucky over and over and over again?) and that people should stop making baseless assumptions that make them look stupid.

[Khorm]

Since I got torn apart by the ever destructive "no, ______, actually" argument, I'll just say that people should be playing what they want to play.

If it threatens the integrity of your Armageddon, too goddamn bad.

[X-D]

Um....NO, it threatons The Integrity of Documented armageddon as written by Staff.

Farther more, about 5 years ago, anybody with the karma could play muls and such when ever they wanted. They became special app because too many people were doing so.

[Tarx]

No, my character is a mul sorcerer named Amos, actually.

This thread needs more kittens.

[/img]

[bloodfromstone]

Since I got torn apart by the ever destructive "no, ______, actually" argument, I'll just say that people should be playing what they want to play.

Sorry, but you kind of asked for it, since more than one person has already posted accounts of being about as normal as a PC can get and still interesting (especially that 'rinthi elf) and still encountering magick.

If it threatens the integrity of your Armageddon, too goddamn bad.

It may seem like the logical and productive path to simply blow off the entire discussion, but unfortunately, that's what the board is supposed to be for. If you don't want to see discussions, you're probably in the wrong place.

It is silly to say 'If your character does anything exceptional at all, you can't complain about magick.' Every PC is going to be exceptional. By this rational, it is completely okay for every PC ever to always be involved with magick. By that rational, magick would be widely less feared and awed over - which is about where we stand now, and neither side is happy. Some say 'Too many magickers!' and the others respond 'The real problem is that mundanes don't react properly!' The latter is caused by the former, or at least perpetuated.

[jhunter]

I've seen plenty of illegal magicks even inside the walls of Allanak. Almost every one of my characters have had to deal with it in some way or another - my current one especially is forced into a plot that is so obviously magickal all the way through, and it's just one example of how it (to me) is absolutely impossible to consider magick rare and mysterious. I'm not saying that magick shouldn't exist, but I am in absolute disagreement with those who say that it's not too blatant and common in the world. You don't need to roam the deep deserts or dark forests to see magick frequently.

That's like saying it's wrong to see plenty of templars in Allanak. You should expect to encounter a magicker or see magick at -least-(meaning barest minimum) once in the lifetime of -any- Allanaki character, IMO.
See, there's this place called the Elementalist's Quarter and these people (who are magickers) that are accepted in the city so long as they wear this little black gem. It's -in- Allanak. There's also these warrior priests known as templars that are pretty widely known to wield magick as well who live there too.

[Khorm]

It may seem like the logical and productive path to simply blow off the entire discussion, but unfortunately, that's what the board is supposed to be for. If you don't want to see discussions, you're probably in the wrong place.

It is silly to say 'If your character does anything exceptional at all, you can't complain about magick.' Every PC is going to be exceptional. By this rational, it is completely okay for every PC ever to always be involved with magick. By that rational, magick would be widely less feared and awed over - which is about where we stand now, and neither side is happy. Some say 'Too many magickers!' and the others respond 'The real problem is that mundanes don't react properly!' The latter is caused by the former, or at least perpetuated.

I'm simply stating my take on it, which is more or less adding to the discussion, right?

If every PC is exceptional, then I would probably expect to encounter other exceptional personalities.. magickers included. Across the known world, magick is rare. Compared to the population of NPCs and VNPCs, magick is rare. If there are 30 people online, and each is searching for some sort of worthwhile interaction, then chances are magick is going to come to you at one point or another.

I just don't buy the argument that because everyone one of your characters encounters magick at some point, it is somehow less rare.

[bloodfromstone]

I just don't buy the argument that because everyone one of your characters encounters magick at some point, it is somehow less rare.

I cannot even begin to respond to this. I'm not trying to be rude, but that is just silly. Of course if everyone encounters magick, it is less rare! We can all put on a surprised face every time magick comes by, but it's all going to be skin deep, half-hearted roleplaying if the players themselves are rolling their eyes.

[Marauder Moe]

Just because 99% Allanaki PCs are free doesn't mean that 50% of the population of Allanak isn't enslaved in some form or another.

How is that statement so different from what Khorm said?

Your characters are abnormal in more ways than just the amount of magick they encounter, yet no one complains nearly as much about too many PCs being free citizens, or noble aides, or nobles, or people rich enough to not have to beg.

[Supreme Allah]

I agree with Khorm's statements - past, present, and future - completely.

[LoD]

I've seen plenty of illegal magicks even inside the walls of Allanak...<snip>

That's like saying it's wrong to see plenty of templars in Allanak. You should expect to encounter a magicker or see magick at -least-(meaning barest minimum) once in the lifetime of -any- Allanaki character, IMO.
See, there's this place called the Elementalist's Quarter and these people (who are magickers) that are accepted in the city so long as they wear this little black gem. It's -in- Allanak. There's also these warrior priests known as templars that are pretty widely known to wield magick as well who live there too.

They state illegal[/b] magicks in the first sentence, jhunter.

Gemmed magickers and templar magick aren't considered illegal.

That would mean they are referencing magickers that are not part of the accepted, tolerated, or widely used magickal peoples populating the city-state, but rather a subset of magickers that exist in addition to these people.  In fact, their first sentence specifies "even in Allanak", meaning that Allanak is only one location in which they've witnessed these illegal magicks.  The sarcasm doesn't help the situation either.

Referring to the comments that claim encountering the rare and mysterious should be expected because we are playing "exceptional" characters, I'm not sure that really works.  To some degree, yes, a noble or templar probably has a higher chance of interacting with a magicker due to their position and authority.  However, I had a character that followed a fairly strict regimen of hunting the same group of land, none of which was more than 10 leagues from a road or city wall, and still encountered quite a few magickers.  Was that character "exceptional"?  Not really.  Their life seemed to be indicative of many of the VNPC and NPC hunters for the House.

The problem is that the documentation sets up an unrealistic expectation on the part of both players; magick and mundane.  Operating under the assumption that our characters are "exceptional" creates issues by people beginning to play the "exception" to the rule.  Magickers and mundanes both are emboldened.  Magickers aren't being quite as careful as they should be, and neither are the mundanes.  Does this "exceptional" play really help promote an environment that both sides want to see?  I'm not sure that it does.

As many have mentioned, arguing what's been going on with 1.Arm in the last few months isn't really productive.  There are many lessons to be learned from how magick has progressed through the game in the last 10 years.  And it's good to discuss and debate how to use that information when making suggestions on how to create a better "environment" with rare and mysterious magicks in 2.Arm without completly removing the aspects of magick play that people enjoy.

-LoD

[bloodfromstone]

How is that statement so different from what Khorm said?

It is different because no one is expecting people to act surprised and impressed that their character isn't a beggar.

[Marauder Moe]

Really?  Being a noble's aide should be a pretty huge deal.  Aides are supposed to be socially higher than a freaking militia sergeant.  Aides should be seen has having a great deal of power and prestige.  They have the ear of an actual noble, afterall, as well as a fair amount of money.  If someone tells you they're a noble's aide, your average poor commoner should be pretty damned impressed and envious.  They're not, though, because in the PC population there's usually at least one aide for each noble, usually 8 in Allanak.  Not too different from the average the number of gemmed...


A lot of you people seem to have trouble recognizing that there is a difference between Armageddon and Zalanthas.  Armageddon the game is a subset of Zalanthas the world.  Armageddon the game does not,, however, and is not meant to be, an even cross-section of Zalanthas.  It emphasizes some things (nobles/aides, magickers, merchants, free commoners), and de-emphasizes others (slaves, farmers, some tribes).  You're not supposed to roleplay as though the PC population is a perfect representation of the vNPC population.

If your character sees a lot of magick, so what?  If they get a little desensitized to it, so what?  Just don't presume that just because you and maybe many of your friends are a bit desensitized to magick, everyone else is also.  Recognize that your character has an abnormal life, and that your experiences make you different.  Maybe they're cursed, maybe just unlucky, whatever.

[Melody]

If your character sees a lot of magick, so what?  If they get a little desensitized to it, so what?  Just don't presume that just because you and maybe many of your friends are a bit desensitized to magick, everyone else is also.  Recognize that your character has an abnormal life, and that your experiences make you different.  Maybe they're cursed, maybe just unlucky, whatever.

It isn't just one character. It's every single one of my characters, and it happens to some others too.  Most of the encounters are within city walls. Here's a not so recent but isn't terribly old example that reflects an extremity in the argument, and actually it happened:

There are about eight characters in a well frequented tavern. Six of them are not mundane. All six of them are not gemmed.

So what?

It's all good and fun. But once it happens too often, the enjoyment diminishes.

[Tarx]

There are about eight characters in a well frequented tavern. Six of them are not mundane. All six of them are not gemmed.

I'm just going to note that the last sentence there seems exceptionally odd.

[Shoka Windrunner]

I guess we can all argue till we are blue in the fingers.  But it won't change anyone's opinion I think.  Actually I like magickers as I have said before.  I enjoy playing them.  And I enjoy fucking with people as a magicker in the following ways:

I attempt to intimidate them, in ways like toying with my dull black gem.

I have a current character who is mindfucking people because of what my character has gone through becoming a magicker.  It's not my fault!  I was born this way and didn't have a choice!  I'm sorry that if for some of you that makes you feel unhappy cause MAGICKERS SHOULDN'T BE LIKE THAT!  They are EVIL!  No actually any mundane's perception of magick is that it is evil.  If someone who couldn't adapt and rationalize the fact that they suddenly find out that they are a magicker, then they would probably kill themselves as the anathema they fell like.  However, if a magicker comes and dumps cold hard logic on your head, you can deny it all you want.  But it makes you think.  Once upon a time certain races of humans were considered not human.  Someone sat down and thought about this later and decided that wasn't true.  After it was shown to them by those races of human that that is not true.  (this was about a post I saw somewhere in this thread)

Cast a non violent spell on someone from a distant, and fuck with them.

I don't however randomly kill people in game.  As a 'powerful' magicker I haven't killed a single PC ever.  Except the one my char hated years ago.  No PC's.  Barely any NPC's except in defense. So I guess I never saw this problem of magicker raiders really.

Now...I do other things as well but this brings me to my next point.  Documentation states you should be scared to fuck of magick.  Okay.  How many years since the world blew up anyway?  In the near future we are going to fast forward another 500 years.  Maybe this is the beginning of how the new world will be.  More magick.  Maybe more accepted.  I don't have a clue though.  But it's probably going to be accepted in certain areas.  And it should be.  You can pit a Whiran, Rukkian, Vivaduan, and Krathi against any other group of people caught in a cataclysm, and guess who is probably going to survive and who isn't?

Someone I know is going to say well no one will ever respect a half-elf.  No one ever looks at a mul like another person.  No one ever trusts an elf.
Yes, they do.  Maybe to their own detriment, or to their own ridicule by others but it happens.  Some people hate magickers, but maybe you should think about what your saying.  I can argue the logic of why people shouldn't fear magickers anymore as much.  It's not hard to do.  Some magickers suck ass and kill people.  Others try to help and fit in.  Some live by themselves and want to be left alone just like you do.  Do you have to approach someone you see in the wild just because you can tell they are a PC?  No.  So don't.  That doesn't mean that everyone does.

If magick is indeed that common, maybe people should be getting used to it.  If you can say that the average person in Allanak meets magick all the time, perhaps it isn't that rare.  Maybe, just maybe, it doesn't need to be that rare.  Maybe people should be getting more used to it.  You don't have to like it, but even Republicans and Democrats can occasionally work together on things.

I think honestly there is some RP on both sides that players don't agree with and don't ever see themselves playing.  That's the trap of criticizing how something is RPed.  To others, you look like a twit, just like they look like a twit to you.  That's because everyone is different.

Magick is a part of Arm.  I'll agree, Magickers get scary really fast.  They do.  It doesn't take that long.  I doubt 3 days would make you invincible unless all you did was cast spells, spamming or RPing them out would make little difference.  But it's been said by the Staff they are supposed to be scary.  

I will say this, I think other classes should be scary as well, or scarier anyway.  Maybe they should start with skills a little better than they do now.  At least at a level that a ranger can actually hunt without getting his ass handed to himself constantly.  It should be possible to just start a character who is mundane, who works and lives off the wild, and be able to do that from the start.

Maybe then people wouldn't spar all day, god damn I hate sparring, which is why I play magickers or non combat PC's mostly.  I hate trying to be an assassin who can barely stab himself, let alone someone or something else.  I hate being a ranger who gets his ass handed to him, hunting the things near where he starts, things he has learned and trained for years to hunt, and get's his ass kicked.

Make everyone a bit more even at the start, and playing a magicker wouldn't be so appealing.  I say I hate sparring, that is because I feel like a twink doing it.  If I didn't have to spar, if I improved through actually doing my chosen profession and not from sparring, I would be so much happier.  I would play a much wider variety of roles.  But I've played Arm off and on for a long time.  I know what is enjoyable to me and what isn't.  So maybe you need to decide that maybe people enjoy playing magickers and don't like playing mundanes.  Make everyone start at a decent level of skills.  That goes for every class there is.  I'd rather roleplay, make skills a secondary thing completely, and just have fun and live.  If you want to start with no knowledge and learn in game, then put that in your background, wish it up and ask for your skills to be lowered to represent that.  That's your choice as well.

BUT that is my idea of fun, and maybe not yours.  So sue me.

[LauraMars]

*touches this thread with a ten foot pole*

[spawnloser]

Hymwen, the majority of people are slaves, so you're hardly doing anything that the majority is doing.  The majority of the non-slaves are poor and hardly ever have spare coin lying around.  They rarely see a temlar, much less interact with them.  They don't work for a noble house or a great merchant house.  Your character is exceptional by Zalanthan standards.  Get used to the idea.

Just because you've come across magick, by the way, that doesn't mean it's no longer mysterious to your character.  Addressing the rare issue?  You encounter magick 3 times in a characters life.  How old is your character?  A good average seems to be in the 20's, so that's once every 7 to 10 years, on average.  Sounds pretty rare to me.