Re: Luir's Whores

[Olafson]

Just in reply to the thread in Ask the Staff...

I believe in the Storm's End, there's a young/teenage boy who is working in there if you can catch the room echoes.

[Briarfox]

I don't see how this is sexist at all. There is vnpc and npc male whores and I know for a fact there are pc catamites around.

[rishenko]

Allanak's Bazaar has a rather fetching young catamite and there are other male whores about.  Just keep looking, slip them some sid and ask the imms for NPC "consented" interaction.

[zanthalandreams]

I'm sure they could aways use more, right O?   Come on people, apply for those jobs!  Be that change!

[Bebop]

I know there are SOME but the majority of PCs convey gender roles to me.  A woman holding a childs hand, lots MORE female whores then male whores.  There are some exceptions but it's far from balanced as it is the way I see it.  NPCs assist in creating an atmosphere and so far it's not creating a very balanced one in reguards to gender roles.  I don't think there is one bartender that is a female or one leader of a city that is a female.  Red Storm, Tuluk, Luir's, Allanak.  All male owned.  Just because there are some females like a certain gruff female armor/weapons seller I am familar with or rugged looking NPCs in the Byn doesn't mean that it's balanced as the documenation say it is.

[Tarx]

I don't think there is one bartender that is a female or one leader of a city that is a female. Red Storm, Tuluk, Luir's, Allanak. All male owned.

I can think of one female bartender.  True, that's the only one I can think of, but there is that one...

[Agent_137]

The Barrel.

[mansa]

I think the problem lies in the wording, because there are no npcs with the sdesc, 'male prostitute'.

And people don't realize what the word catamite means.

[najdorf]

taking it's deep roots from my ooc hatred, my next warrior-dwarf's focus will be to destroy entire gay population in Zalanthas.

[Beux]

taking it's deep roots from my ooc hatred, my next warrior-dwarf's focus will be to destroy entire gay population in Zalanthas.

:shock:

I hope that was a joke statement inspired by the discussion of zalanthan sexuality.

[Xygax]

There are actually at least three female bartenders in the game.

While I agree that there is a disparity in overall gender definitions, I hardly think that the state of things is as dire as Bebop seems to suggest.  I certainly wouldn't use the term "sexist" to describe it.  Along the lines of what one of the staff respondents suggested:  if you want to see more balance along these lines, do it yourself, either via submissions, or by creating the character you think the world should have but codedly lacks, as a PC.

-- X

[Bebop]

There are actually at least three female bartenders in the game.

While I agree that there is a disparity in overall gender definitions, I hardly think that the state of things is as dire as Bebop seems to suggest.  I certainly wouldn't use the term "sexist" to describe it.  Along the lines of what one of the staff respondents suggested:  if you want to see more balance along these lines, do it yourself, either via submissions, or by creating the character you think the world should have but codedly lacks, as a PC.

-- X

It's not DIRE but I think it would more probably express the atmosphere as NPCs should... and now that I think about it I do know of one female bartender.

[Ktavialt]

taking it's deep roots from my ooc hatred, my next warrior-dwarf's focus will be to destroy entire gay population in Zalanthas.

The fair-skinned, dainty man has arrived from the west.
The brutish, hulking half-giant has arrived from the west.
The young, cleanly shaven catamine has arrived from the west.


The mullet-haired, red-necked man narrows his eyes at the fair-skinned,
dainty man from his seat at the large, wooden table.


Rising slowly with a gruff snort, the mullet-haired, red-necked man rises
from the large, wooden table, still staring at the fair-skinned, dainty man.


With a southern drawl, as he gestures between the fair-skined, dainty man
and the young, cleanly shaven cataminte, the mullet-haired, red-necked
man says to the fair-skinned, dainty man, in sirihish:
  "I dun think you's wanna stick around here, ya queer sorts.  Yuh best
   get lost."


After a long, quiet gaze over the mullet-haired, red-necked man, the
fair-skinned, dainty man nods his head solemnly.


The fair-skinned, dainty man issues an order to the brutish, hulking half-
giant.
The brutish, hulking half-giant's slash does horrendous damage to the
mullet-haired, red-necked man's head.
The mullet-haired, red-necked man screams in pain.


Beckoning the young, cleanly shaven catamite to follow with his finger, the
fair-skinned, dainty man says, in sirihish:
   "You know, he has a point.  They really need to clean up all the blood
in here before this place is suitable for mingling."

The fair-skinned, dainty man walks to the west.
The brutish, hulking half-giant walks to the west.
The young, cleanly shaven catamine walks to the west.

[Larrath]

The half-giant got him in the end?  I was rooting on the dainty fellow being a Nilazi or something.

[Ktavialt]

The half-giant got him in the end?  I was rooting on the dainty fellow being a Nilazi or something.

*sigh* Everyone's a critic.  Must... try... harder.

[Larrath]

The half-giant got him in the end?  I was rooting on the dainty fellow being a Nilazi or something.

*sigh* Everyone's a critic.  Must... try... harder.

Nah, your blurb was great.

[FightClub]

It's not DIRE but I think it would more probably express the atmosphere as NPCs should... and now that I think about it I do know of one female bartender.

Someone needs to learn how to emote with vnpc's and quit yelping about affirmative action.

[Cyrian20]

I know there are SOME but the majority of PCs convey gender roles to me.  A woman holding a childs hand, lots MORE female whores then male whores.  There are some exceptions but it's far from balanced as it is the way I see it.  NPCs assist in creating an atmosphere and so far it's not creating a very balanced one in reguards to gender roles.  I don't think there is one bartender that is a female or one leader of a city that is a female.  Red Storm, Tuluk, Luir's, Allanak.  All male owned.  Just because there are some females like a certain gruff female armor/weapons seller I am familar with or rugged looking NPCs in the Byn doesn't mean that it's balanced as the documenation say it is.

No female leaders?! You need to look into the game a little better, I know clans that allow female only leadership. I am not going to justify it though, if something is 'equal' that doesn't always mean both sides are the same. I think the closest I have seen to sexism in game is actually people getting angry over non-equality in the roles. Which has little to do with sexism and more to do with the characters

[Cuusardo]

There are some patriarchal and matriarchal organizations despite the lack of sexism.  It is not because they are being sexist; it is because that is their tradition, and they have their reasons for doing so.

[Cuusardo]

Someone needs to learn how to emote with vnpc's and quit yelping about affirmative action.

There is no need to be inflamatory.

[FightClub]

Someone needs to learn how to emote with vnpc's and quit yelping about affirmative action.

There is no need to be inflamatory.

That's about as far from as inflamatory as it gets for me babe.

[Bluefae]

The half-giant got him in the end?  I was rooting on the dainty fellow being a Nilazi or something.

*sigh* Everyone's a critic.  Must... try... harder.

I thought it was hilarious.  

[Bluefae]

In my time playing, I've been quite impressed with the effort that the good majority of the players go to in order to uphold the gender equality of the world.  The staff consistantly supports this vision as well, which I appreciate.

At the same time, NPC's can be an important social "cue" as to what kind of crowd is in any given room.  I'll also admit to bias with using coded NPC's vs. VNPC's, mainly because they feel more "real".  More female NPC's in what we (IRL) tend to think of as masculine rolls could be helpful in illustrating the absolute sex equality that exists on Zalanthas.

Bebop:  Could you perhaps PM me and point out an area(s) that might benefit from a female addition?  I'd be happy to submit someone in due course, and I'd like your insight on the subject.

On a related note, I actually have considered trying to play a male courtesan-type before, but I'm not confident in my ability to "pass".  I have noticed a distinct lack of male-male relationships, as opposed to female-female ones, which seem relatively common.  I believe that more visible examples of male-male pairings would help underscore the unique flavor of the world as well.

[manonfire]

It's not DIRE but I think it would more probably express the atmosphere as NPCs should... and now that I think about it I do know of one female bartender.

Someone needs to learn how to emote with vnpc's and quit yelping about affirmative action.

I'm pretty sure you're the greatest person in existence, Fight.

Let's go get a beer.

[FightClub]

I never say no to a beer, unless it's made from seaweed.

[Bluefae]

I never say no to a beer, unless it's made from seaweed.

*laugh*  Seaweed...?

[amish overlord]

I never say no to a beer, unless it's made from seaweed.

*laugh*  Seaweed...?

There's seaweed beer? A friend told me their was beer brewed by buddist monks some where (nepal or that tregion) using yak piss!

Amish Overlord  

[Angela Christine]

It would be good to see more NPCs displaying the diversity and social norms of Zalanthas.  This is hard with relationships though, since most NPCs don't display any relationships at all.  If all you looked at were NPCs you could get the idea that most people in Zalanthas really are loners, or have no family or friends outside of the organization they work for.

There's seaweed beer? A friend told me their was beer brewed by buddist monks some where (nepal or that tregion) using yak piss!

And that differs from other beer, how, exactly?  

Beer = piss

[Cuusardo]

WARNING!  DERAIL:

And that differs from other beer, how, exactly?  

Beer = piss

Most American and Canadian beer = filtered piss
(Filtering beer takes out the good stuff and turns it to piss!  They do it because it's cheaper for them to produce that way.)

[manonfire]

lawl hangups.

Eat, drink, and be merry.

[Bebop]

Someone needs to learn how to emote with vnpc's and quit yelping about affirmative action.

There is no need to be inflamatory.

That's about as far from as inflamatory as it gets for me babe.

Then maybe you shouldn't be on the boards since you may notice at the top of each site on the page it reads.

This board is for general discussion of Armageddon MUD. No flames, no IC-sensitive information.

Aren't you the same person that said employment at McDonalds wasn't really employment.  Wow, instead of actually addressing the issue on the post you told me to stop discussing the topic of discussion on a general discussion board.  You are so clever.  Or maybe if you don't want discuss topics about this game on a general discussion board and just want to go drink beer you could do me a favor and just go do that.

Oh and while you're at it why don't you just tell black people to go sit at the back of the bus since you obviously don't give a shit about equal rights for people on OOC level if you're going to compare this conversation to affirmative action.  Though I have my doubts you even know what that is by your post.

[Bebop]

Also for clarifcation, generally what I was trying to ask the staff, is this.

NPCs are supposed to enlighten people to the environment help set the mood to the city and place you are in.  If you go into Luir's and all you see are female whores, you go to the south and there is always a female whore in a particular tavern you are going to start basing your assumptions on the fact that most whores in Zalanthas and Luir's in general are woman.  That is not in line with game documentation.  But NPCs are not there so we can make assumptions they are there to set the mood and I find it slighting that Luir's is known for their incredible whores but all those NPC whores are female.

Just as well NPCs should express the diverse non-gender specific roles of Zalanthas.  It's not DIRE but it's definitely something consider.  And I don't think newbs can really adequately get the feel for Zalanthan people when they see real world gender roles confined to the majority of NPCs.

[bloodfromstone]

The growing flame war aside...

I agree with Bebop. Of course it's not something that we're in dire need of, but NPCs do do a lot to help flesh out the game world. That's why NPCs elves shouldn't be riding kanks, why NPCs gemmers shouldn't be playing cards with a bunch of Borsail NPCs, and why NPCs females should fill the same roles as NPCs males, and the vice-versa.

A good example is a set of NPCs that look something like this:
A group of human children are here, playing ball.
A half-elven child stands here, watching some human boys play.

It struck me as an incredibly good reminder of that aspect of the game world. It is consistant with what is expected of the players, and it really drives home a point about human/half-elf interaction. Great stuff.

Of course, the staff has already said they'd be happy to impliment some male whores, if the players submit them, so those of us who feel strongly about the whole deal should be all over that.

[Adhira]

Thanks to Delirium there is now a male whore in Luirs, and one more to come.  

For those others who are especially perturbed about a lack of certain types of npcs etc in any place, feel free to email me a submission you'd like to see put in.

[Ktavialt]

This board is for general discussion of Armageddon MUD. No flames, no IC-sensitive information.

Word.  Folks who irritate just for the sake of irritation suck balls. (*)

- Ktavialt

Edited to add:

(*) No offense to those who actually do like to suck balls.

[FightClub]

Yep, seaweed ale, or beer, can't remember was at some import bar.  My friend has this desire to drink pretty much any beer that no one would ever dream of sipping upon, and doing it as fast as possible.  He once had the seaweed!  

And about beer=piss, some piss is better than other piss!

Bebop...that wasn't a flame, if I wanted to seriously offend you I would have done it, I was just making a point, there are endless vnp's for you to utilize, yet you're crying over npc's not existing, yet relying upon someone else to make them to satisfy your needs, it's very hypocritical.  Finally I don't appreciate your critique of my person, or your quickness to call me a biggot.

[Sokotra]

Thanks to Delirium there is now a male whore in Luirs, and one more to come.  

Wow, great... just what we need.  No offense or anything, but I think we just need to leave the whores and catamites off in the "subtly suggested" catagory that they exist in the game rather than fleshing out this part of the game world - bleh.  Sorry, just seems really silly to me... I don't think we need to cater to the perverts that care about seeing this sorta stuff.  Because I don't care about seeing it... maybe it's just me.

[Rhyden]

Thanks to Delirium there is now a male whore in Luirs, and one more to come.  

Wow, great... just what we need.  No offense or anything, but I think we just need to leave the whores and catamites off in the "subtly suggested" catagory that they exist in the game rather than fleshing out this part of the game world - bleh.  Sorry, just seems really silly to me... I don't think we need to cater to the perverts that care about seeing this sorta stuff.  Because I don't care about seeing it... maybe it's just me.

Won't somebody think of the mansas out there?!

[path]

I agree with Bebop.

[Larrath]

Wow, great... just what we need.  No offense or anything, but I think we just need to leave the whores and catamites off in the "subtly suggested" category that they exist in the game rather than fleshing out this part of the game world - bleh.  Sorry, just seems really silly to me... I don't think we need to cater to the [/i]perverts that care about seeing this sorta stuff.

First of all, something very important that I want to say:
Fictional characters performing fictional deeds has nothing to do with who their players are.
I've had characters that were ruthless characters, scheming liars, backstabbers and even a rapist (though he didn't target any PCs).  I've played pedophiles, bisexuals and people that thought sex is gross.
As a person, I'm not ruthless, not scheming, not a backstabber, not bisexual and definitely not a rapist.  I don't think I'm more perverse than anyone that doesn't think sex itself is perverse.

Now to the real point: Zalanthas' society is starkly different from Earth society in several very serious ways.
One of these ways is that the sexes are socially equal, and that sex itself is cheap and almost never carries any stigma.
Another difference is that the society (at virtually all levels, including nobles and sometimes even templars) is highly superstitious about dozens of different things - the position of Jihae and/or Lirathu, the position of Suk-Krath, the number of feathers worn, excessive paleness, red hair, long fingers, bad things that happen as a result of casual encounters with magickers, praying to the Sorcerer King for protection, etc..

The equality of the sexes is very frequently reminded, and it's not very rare to see a gruff female Bynner.  And sometimes these female Bynners are treated the way they ought to, even.  The fact that sex is cheap and trivial (as opposed to standard fantasy One True Love) isn't often reminded, and people generally tend to look down on prostitutes ICly.  More NPC prostitutes, especially well-dressed ones in high positions, can do much to remind players of what Zalanthas is like and how love should be treated.
It's not like these NPCs are animated for hot player-on-staffer action.

And if you think it shouldn't be reminded so much, just think about superstitions in-game.  During the past half-year (either RL or IC), how many truly superstitious PCs have you seen?
Now remind yourself that roughly 90% of all Zalanthans are at least somewhat superstitious.


These reminders have a real and important purpose, and that is to help refine the game atmosphere and make it easier to understand.  It has nothing to do with being perverted, and neither does roleplaying a perverted character.

[Agent_137]

Thanks to Delirium there is now a male whore in Luirs, and one more to come.  

Wow, great... just what we need.  No offense or anything, but I think we just need to leave the whores and catamites off in the "subtly suggested" catagory that they exist in the game rather than fleshing out this part of the game world - bleh.  Sorry, just seems really silly to me... I don't think we need to cater to the perverts that care about seeing this sorta stuff.  Because I don't care about seeing it... maybe it's just me.

do we play the same game?

Attitudes towards sexuality are broad. Homosexuality is common, and not seen as aberrant. Multiple sex partners are common among Zalanthans, particularly in the upper classes.

If lines of text bother you, perhaps you should not be on the information super highway?

[Clearsighted]

I don't see what's the problem with most whores being women.

Males of all species have a bigger sex drive. It's a biological thing. It's required for procreation.

Or do the helpfiles really claim that women are biologically and genetically as strong as men and as biologically driven to procreate? Wouldn't the addition of those chromesomes make for some very manly women?

In which case I would think that was just silly.

I can understand Zalanthas having different social mores owing to the unique cheapness of life, but some things are just embedded on us genetically and follow rules as old as the universe. Whether you're a human being or a chimpanzee. And I doubt Zalanthas natives are as different from us as chimpanzees.

[Gimfalisette]

Or do the helpfiles really claim that women are biologically and genetically as strong as men and as biologically driven to procreate?

Yes.

[Clearsighted]

Or do the helpfiles really claim that women are biologically and genetically as strong as men and as biologically driven to procreate?

Yes.

Are you /certain/ about that? There is a VAST difference between cultural and social mores being equal, and between our *genetic DNA* being the same. That would mean that women as we know it, do not exist in Zalanthas, but are more hairy and larger with more manly features. Like Ann Coulter on steroids.

Where do all those extra hormones and chromesomes come from? Can't you imagine the implications?

I think it is far more logical to assume that the equality is culturally and socially as it is. Not genetically.

[Gimfalisette]

On Zalanthas, male and female of a given race can be equally strong, fast, smart, enduring, etc. This is the way the game is coded, and this is the way the game is played. You asked if they were equal in this respect, and they are. That is why a female Bynner is just as likely (or unlikely) to be able to kick your ass as a male Bynner.

Obviously male and female are not -exactly- genetically the same, but in terms of physical capability (other than roles in childbearing), yes, they are the same.

[Clearsighted]

On Zalanthas, male and female of a given race can be equally strong, fast, smart, enduring, etc. This is the way the game is coded, and this is the way the game is played. You asked if they were equal in this respect, and they are. That is why a female Bynner is just as likely (or unlikely) to be able to kick your ass as a male Bynner.

Obviously male and female are not -exactly- genetically the same, but in terms of physical capability (other than roles in childbearing), yes, they are the same.

There are alot of things codewise that are equal that are not neccessarily the case from a RP perspective.

I can code-wise skin a kank in 5 seconds. It doesn't mean that genetically, I have super-fast kank-skinning reflexes.

And I'm perfectly willing to allow that Zalanthas unique environment causes there to be a lesser gap between male and female strength and physical well being, then there is an modern industrialized society.

But you can't abscribe it to genetics or hormones or biology. That opens up a whole can of worms. There is a reason that most men are johns and most women are prostitutes. Women and men and males of females of EVERY species ever documented, have different sex drives, conducive to their evolution.

[Gimfalisette]

And I'm perfectly willing to allow that Zalanthas unique environment causes there to be a lesser gap between male and female strength and physical well being, then there is an modern industrialized society.

But you can't abscribe it to genetics or hormones or biology. That opens up a whole can of worms. There is a reason that most men are johns and most women are prostitutes. Women and men and males of females of EVERY species ever documented, have different sex drives, conducive to their evolution.

There is not a "lesser gap between male and female strength and physical well being" on Zalanthas. There is NO gap at all. That's the way the code works, and that's the way it is to be roleplayed, whether you allow it or not. There have been about 87 thousand threads on this topic...search on gender or sexism and you'll see.

[Clearsighted]

And I'm perfectly willing to allow that Zalanthas unique environment causes there to be a lesser gap between male and female strength and physical well being, then there is an modern industrialized society.

But you can't abscribe it to genetics or hormones or biology. That opens up a whole can of worms. There is a reason that most men are johns and most women are prostitutes. Women and men and males of females of EVERY species ever documented, have different sex drives, conducive to their evolution.

There is not a "lesser gap between male and female strength and physical well being" on Zalanthas. There is NO gap at all. That's the way the code works, and that's the way it is to be roleplayed, whether you allow it or not. There have been about 87 thousand threads on this topic...search on gender or sexism and you'll see.

It's possible for there to still be a difference but just not codewise significantly unless you deliberately buck the trend.

Otherwise, why are 90% of male PCs/NPCs more musclebound, and 90% of female NPCs/PCs more lithe? In fact. It's somewhat self enforcing, since I've seen most male PCs take much higher heights and weights than female PCs do. Yes. As befits the culture, there are plenty of muscled females as well. Since they're socially and culturally equal and have all the same opportunities.

But I HIGHLY doubt there is a perfect 50/50 split for male/female warriors and male/female prostitutes.

Your insistance that the way it's coded actually represents Zalanthas women having more hormones and tetesterone than men is rediculous.

It's not even a matter of equality. It's just the way we're built as a biological species. How all species are biologically built.

Women aren't inferior to men because less of them play football or join the army. Less women /want/ to play football or join the army.

[Larrath]

This thread has derailed into completely ridiculous.

In the fantasy world of Zalanthas, women are physically equal to men.  This is a part of the game reality and society.
Reproductive urges are still different.  The biology is different.

There are about as many male prostitutes as there are female prostitutes - don't forget that homosexuality and bisexuality are both highly common, and the fact that prostitution can be very lucrative.  One of the highest social positions in Allanak is a Noble's Concubine.


Moving on to PCs and NPCs:
PCs: more male PCs are musclebound than female PCs because a lot of players enjoy playing characters they feel are very attractive.  I'm not particularly happy with this fact, but it is a fact.  The PCs don't really represent the populace of Zalanthas - PCs rarely live past the age of 27, and even poor commoner NPCs could probably live to age 40.

NPCs: I really don't think your 90% ratio is correct at all.  It's more likely closer to 30%, with two reasons:
1) A lot of NPCs serve a purpose, particularly NPC bodyguards and soldiers.  Professional fighters need to be strong and muscular, and people working for Noble Houses need to be attractive in order to be hired in the first place.
2) Allanak has 400k people living there, including around 150,000 slaves.  I don't really think Allanak should get 150,000 slave NPCs, and not even 150 slave NPCs in order to represent this.  There's a VNPC population, and it is huge.  It's very difficult to make the NPC population represent all layers of society, but if you want to help out, write up some muscular woman or priss man aide/prostitute, or half-giant children or what-not.

Finally, on all matters biological, just suspend your disbelief.  I really don't see why it's so hard to see why a society that has lived on a brutal world for a few good centuries has developed to the degree that women and men are equally strong.  This is far more plausible than, say, the principles of magick.

[Clearsighted]

I find it perfectly plausible that the harsh nature of the Zalanthan world, just as it has in certain periods of human history yet heightened, has caused there to be no appreciatively significant difference codewise between male and female physical potential, depending on where they choose to exert themselves.

Yet the vast majority of men, represented by both the NPCs and PCs, tend to represent themselves as bigger and more masculine than women. Surprisingly, most of the women NPCs and PCs seem to adhere towards more feminine norms. Yet some in this thread feel that is wrong, or instances of misunderstanding the game world. How? There can be masculinity and femininity and still be equal. Some of the most vocal supporters seem to somehow feel that women being less masculine than men makes them inferior. That is a completely cutural idea. Zalanthan equality is not that all women are masculine and therefore equal, it is that whether masculine or feminine, it makes no difference. Owing to the Zalanthan cultural reality, there is plenty of opportunity for women to be masculine and for men to be female.

Yet more men are still going to be masculine, and more women are still going to be feminine.  But if your interpretation of the theme is such that the vast majority of PCs and NPCs contradict it, or that they are unable to maintain parity with reality, that suggests to me that something is deeply and fundamentally off with the implementation.

I think that some of the blind insistance (not by you Larrath, but by others) that men and female are biologically/genetically the same, with the same biological dispositions is an incredibly silly interpretation of the files.  Hell. In most roleplaying games, you don't have your female or male PCs stats lowered or raised for your gender to have a significant gameplay perspective.

[Larrath]

There are, very roughly, two types of commoners in Zalanthas; the Delicate (bards and aides) and the Rough (Bynners and hunters).

The equality of the sexes means that there is no difference between a Delicate-type woman and a Delicate-type man, or a Rough-type man and a Rough-type woman.
A female noble's aide is probably much weaker than a male Bynner, but so would a male aide be weaker than a female Bynner.

And this is it, really.  Can a Delicate-type expect a Rough-type to open doors or vacate chairs for them?  Not really, but the Rough-type could do it if they wanted to be nice or impress the Delicate.

Delicates and Roughs.  And don't think for a moment that Delicates are socially superior to the Roughs -- this is the range:

Code Select Expand


Delicate                       Rough
Street performer         <-->   Miner
Novice bard               <-->   Lone hunter
Indie bard/Novice aide  <  Recruit/Byn Trooper
Aide/employed Bard    <<       Private
Senior Aide/Concubine (approx. 20) <-->       Sergeant  (approx. 50)
Administrator (approx. 4 per House)  >           Lieutenant  (approx. 16 per House)
Very powerful merchant  (approx. 10) <    Captain (approx. 3)
Minor Merchant House head   <<<  General
Great Merchant House Magnate  >  General


So that's that.  Delicates are Delicates and Roughs are Roughs, and the sex makes no difference.  A female Bynner is every bit as competent and filthy as a male Bynner, and a male House Aide is just as slutty.

[Clearsighted]

Yet the majority of 'rough' types will still be male, and the majority of 'delicate' types will be female. Despite both having equal opportunity, most will gravitate to the path of least resistance. I am not going to throw out any numbers for how significant a diversion (I doubt even staff knows), yet I think the NPC and PC populations are correct. Or at least, if the NPC and PC populations are not correct, then staff has deemed it is too insignificant to 'correct' it.

You'll be hard pressed to find any senior male concubines, afterall.  And given that most women gravitate towards the merchantly, aide, bard, prostitute professions, and that men will probably gravitate towards hunting, soldiering, etc (yet with plenty of diffusion) must be expected.

Afterall, an extremely significant biological imperative that makes females of a species more 'settled' than males, is because in order to procreate, they must be pregnant for the better part of a year. A pregnant female Bynner would not keep their child past the 1st trimester. Nor would a pregnant female hunter put much food on the table in the 2nd or 3rd. So you're going to find females, (at least those whom procreate) gravitating towards more stable professions. There is also a much higher chance of survival if a pregnant female has another to provide for it, and that will likely be the father of the child.

No matter how politically correct Zalanthas wants to be (which somehow doesn't apply to murderous rampages) there are still biological imperatives rooted in one's chromesomes, that will cause each half of the population to veer in slightly different directions.

Unless I somehow missed it in the file that men on Zalanthas can and do give birth too.

It just bothers me from several different angles when someone (not you, Larrath) insists on misinterpreting equal as identical.

[Barzalene]

The thing about the npcs achieving stereotypical masculine and feminine ideals is that they weren't born of zalanthan parents, but rather earth raised players. Many of them were written over ten years ago. This is correctable. Let's get writing and submitting.

[Larrath]

The thing about the npcs achieving stereotypical masculine and feminine ideals is that they weren't born of zalanthan parents, but rather earth raised players. Many of them were written over ten years ago. This is correctable. Let's get writing and submitting.

Yeah.

And the same goes for PCs - they're written by players, and unfortunately many players do believe in gender-roles, even though Zalanthas typically doesn't follow that.  And it has nothing to do with In-Game political correctness; there's simply no reason for the discrimination in the first place.  The 'path of least resistance' is defined by the character's abilities, not sex.
A good-looking but frail human with a sharp mind would find it much easier to work as an aide, a merchant or a bard than to work as a professional gladiator.

On an OOC level, sure, it's political correctness.  But that's just part of the game, love it or leave it.

About pregnancy, by the way, an important note: most Zalanthan commoners have large families with multiple spouses, unlike the PCs that live either alone or in pairs (not counting tribes).  A female Bynner that got pregnant would have her family and spouses take care of her, and she would probably find productive work to do while pregnant.  And if the baby proved to be too much of a burden, she'd just take it to a group of slavers and sell it.


I've played and seen many male House Aides and other male Delicates, and it doesn't really seem to be any harder for them than it is for women...except that, due to OOC reasons, female characters are more desired whenever any mudsex is concerned.  But even this is pretty trivial.
I've also seen Rough females, and the ones that didn't look like Delicates (ie, misfits) weren't really given a hard time by any good player, as far as I can tell.

There will always be that one player that gets everything all wrong and tell a female Byn Sergeant that she belongs in the kitchen and call a Kadian Master Agent a wimp, but this is generally the same guy that spits in the templar's face, regularly finds dozens of oases within three leagues of the city gate, and can instantly recover from crippling injuries by sleeping them off for a couple of hours.
Personally, I try not to pay too much attention to that player.

[Gimfalisette]

It just bothers me from several different angles when someone (not you, Larrath) insists on misinterpreting equal as identical.

Being the "someone" you're referring to in an oh-so-veiled fashion, let me restate what I've said, since you clearly didn't get it. I did not say that males and females are physically identical. Obviously they're not, because there are the reproductive systems to take into account. However, I -did- say that males and females are equally strong, smart, fast, enduring, etc. And yes, I would contend that they are equally horny, too. Larrath pretty much said everything else I would have said to you. I think you need to deal with the fact that the game world is different than -you- think it should be.

Personally, I've played physically weak females, and I've played completely-ready-and-able-to-kick-your-ass-across-the-room females. I've played females who were genteel and some with no manners at all. I've played smart and I've played dumb, I've played pretty and I've played gritty. I've played lusty and I've played uninterested. I wish more players would play kick-ass females, but as Barzalene mentioned, the real-world sexism of the players too often leaks into the game.

[LoD]

Clearsighted, I think you're falling into the same trap that I did in the thread from which both of these statements were pulled.  My arguement was, simply, "The fact that women are the only gender capable of giving birth would have a profound effect upon the gender roles created in a given society, regardless of whether the genders were equal."  

However, that's not the point and has no bearing on the policy.

The point is that the basis of this policy concerns playability and requires the suspension of disbelief with regards to the equality of men and women , no matter what biological or social challenges might realistically exist in the current model.

Two good points from a previous thread:

The reason for this policy is because of playabililty. No player should be required to play a male character in order to have fun. No player should be required to play a male character to gain entrance to a certain clan (unfortunately this is not entirely the case) or to rise in rank within a clan. No player should see their character disrespected, disregarded, or ignored just because they are not playing a male character.

It's not a matter of men and women being constructed differently. It's not a matter of who bears the children. It's not a matter of who is stronger, or smarter, or more nurturing. It's that men and women are valued equally in the game. They can both rise to positions of leadership, they can inherit property, and on and on.

What does that mean in theory? Things like the following:
Being as ready to assume a male leader slept his way to power as a female one.
Knowing that a female Byn sergeant has as strong a chance of kicking your butt as that male one.
Not marking women as outside the norm linguistically.

If you notice places where you think this needs to be addressed, feel free to post something in the submissions forum. I'd be glad to see more female soldiers, or half giants, or whatever. When I'm building, I try to keep a 50/50 ratio, but there's over a decade's worth of building here and I'm sure we're skewed.

-LoD

[Bebop]

Those last two quotes are good ones.  I didn't intend to initiate a discuss really on sexism or biology or anything like that.

Really the core issue with me in my question was the balance in NPC gender and the roles that the NPCs themselves express.  I find that there are some - like a said real life gender specific roles implemented through many of the NPCs like the lacking of male whores in a place renowned for their whores, which is now being fixed it seems.  But that is not the only place we see this.

[manonfire]

I find myself wondering where magickers fit into the rough/delicate theme.

[Larrath]

I find myself wondering where magickers fit into the rough/delicate theme.

They don't; magickers aren't people.
More seriously, magickers are on a completely different tier, since most people don't view them as 'delicate' or 'rough', but rather as 'soul-eating monsters of ass destruction'.

I also didn't include Crafters, most Merchant House ranks and Nobility; it's just not really related to the point.  It's a demonstration, anyway, and not an accurate explanation of what Zalanthan society is like.

[Rindan]

I find myself wondering where magickers fit into the rough/delicate theme.

It fits any way the magiker wants it to fit.  A magiker could be the very picture of a dirty vulgar bastard who loves to drink the blood of his enemies, or he could be a dainty fellow who suffers a fit if one of the unclean masses spills a drink on his nice new shirt.  Further, there is nothing wrong with a noble aid that can break a few necks.  I am sure some nobles would love to have an aid that can get his way by threatening or enacting violence when subtly fails.  Don't pen yourself into stereotypes.  Zalanthas is a harsh world with room for plenty of personalities.

[Clearsighted]

I agree 100% with Sanvean's quote on the matter, which is what I was trying to get across. That there can still be traditional masculine and feminine roles, but that each would be equally valued. Women don't have to have the same biological imperatives that men have or vice versa. Afterall, in Zalanthas, the true determiner of value is survival. Something that we have not had in our cultural consciousness for thousands of years. In fact, Earth is so incredibly supportive of life, especially human life, that one could argue it has made us culturally lazy. There are many wierd technicalities of human culture only possible from how easy it is to survive, and this goes back...a dozen millenia.

[spawnloser]

Actually, Earth isn't supportive of human life...we work to conquer the Earth so that it is supportive of human life.  What I mean by this is that we don't live off the land, but make the land support us by force.

I still maintain that while the code says that males and females are 'statistically' equal, even though they have differing biological roles to play...does NOT mean that there are stereotypical roles for males or females, but there are practical roles that certain people must play due to the biology of their gender and nothing more.