Re: Luir's Whores

[Bluefae]

I never say no to a beer, unless it's made from seaweed.

*laugh*  Seaweed...?

[amish overlord]

I never say no to a beer, unless it's made from seaweed.

*laugh*  Seaweed...?

There's seaweed beer? A friend told me their was beer brewed by buddist monks some where (nepal or that tregion) using yak piss!

Amish Overlord  

[Angela Christine]

It would be good to see more NPCs displaying the diversity and social norms of Zalanthas.  This is hard with relationships though, since most NPCs don't display any relationships at all.  If all you looked at were NPCs you could get the idea that most people in Zalanthas really are loners, or have no family or friends outside of the organization they work for.

There's seaweed beer? A friend told me their was beer brewed by buddist monks some where (nepal or that tregion) using yak piss!

And that differs from other beer, how, exactly?  

Beer = piss

[Cuusardo]

WARNING!  DERAIL:

And that differs from other beer, how, exactly?  

Beer = piss

Most American and Canadian beer = filtered piss
(Filtering beer takes out the good stuff and turns it to piss!  They do it because it's cheaper for them to produce that way.)

[manonfire]

lawl hangups.

Eat, drink, and be merry.

[Bebop]

Someone needs to learn how to emote with vnpc's and quit yelping about affirmative action.

There is no need to be inflamatory.

That's about as far from as inflamatory as it gets for me babe.

Then maybe you shouldn't be on the boards since you may notice at the top of each site on the page it reads.

This board is for general discussion of Armageddon MUD. No flames, no IC-sensitive information.

Aren't you the same person that said employment at McDonalds wasn't really employment.  Wow, instead of actually addressing the issue on the post you told me to stop discussing the topic of discussion on a general discussion board.  You are so clever.  Or maybe if you don't want discuss topics about this game on a general discussion board and just want to go drink beer you could do me a favor and just go do that.

Oh and while you're at it why don't you just tell black people to go sit at the back of the bus since you obviously don't give a shit about equal rights for people on OOC level if you're going to compare this conversation to affirmative action.  Though I have my doubts you even know what that is by your post.

[Bebop]

Also for clarifcation, generally what I was trying to ask the staff, is this.

NPCs are supposed to enlighten people to the environment help set the mood to the city and place you are in.  If you go into Luir's and all you see are female whores, you go to the south and there is always a female whore in a particular tavern you are going to start basing your assumptions on the fact that most whores in Zalanthas and Luir's in general are woman.  That is not in line with game documentation.  But NPCs are not there so we can make assumptions they are there to set the mood and I find it slighting that Luir's is known for their incredible whores but all those NPC whores are female.

Just as well NPCs should express the diverse non-gender specific roles of Zalanthas.  It's not DIRE but it's definitely something consider.  And I don't think newbs can really adequately get the feel for Zalanthan people when they see real world gender roles confined to the majority of NPCs.

[bloodfromstone]

The growing flame war aside...

I agree with Bebop. Of course it's not something that we're in dire need of, but NPCs do do a lot to help flesh out the game world. That's why NPCs elves shouldn't be riding kanks, why NPCs gemmers shouldn't be playing cards with a bunch of Borsail NPCs, and why NPCs females should fill the same roles as NPCs males, and the vice-versa.

A good example is a set of NPCs that look something like this:
A group of human children are here, playing ball.
A half-elven child stands here, watching some human boys play.

It struck me as an incredibly good reminder of that aspect of the game world. It is consistant with what is expected of the players, and it really drives home a point about human/half-elf interaction. Great stuff.

Of course, the staff has already said they'd be happy to impliment some male whores, if the players submit them, so those of us who feel strongly about the whole deal should be all over that.

[Adhira]

Thanks to Delirium there is now a male whore in Luirs, and one more to come.  

For those others who are especially perturbed about a lack of certain types of npcs etc in any place, feel free to email me a submission you'd like to see put in.

[Ktavialt]

This board is for general discussion of Armageddon MUD. No flames, no IC-sensitive information.

Word.  Folks who irritate just for the sake of irritation suck balls. (*)

- Ktavialt

Edited to add:

(*) No offense to those who actually do like to suck balls.

[FightClub]

Yep, seaweed ale, or beer, can't remember was at some import bar.  My friend has this desire to drink pretty much any beer that no one would ever dream of sipping upon, and doing it as fast as possible.  He once had the seaweed!  

And about beer=piss, some piss is better than other piss!

Bebop...that wasn't a flame, if I wanted to seriously offend you I would have done it, I was just making a point, there are endless vnp's for you to utilize, yet you're crying over npc's not existing, yet relying upon someone else to make them to satisfy your needs, it's very hypocritical.  Finally I don't appreciate your critique of my person, or your quickness to call me a biggot.

[Sokotra]

Thanks to Delirium there is now a male whore in Luirs, and one more to come.  

Wow, great... just what we need.  No offense or anything, but I think we just need to leave the whores and catamites off in the "subtly suggested" catagory that they exist in the game rather than fleshing out this part of the game world - bleh.  Sorry, just seems really silly to me... I don't think we need to cater to the perverts that care about seeing this sorta stuff.  Because I don't care about seeing it... maybe it's just me.

[Rhyden]

Thanks to Delirium there is now a male whore in Luirs, and one more to come.  

Wow, great... just what we need.  No offense or anything, but I think we just need to leave the whores and catamites off in the "subtly suggested" catagory that they exist in the game rather than fleshing out this part of the game world - bleh.  Sorry, just seems really silly to me... I don't think we need to cater to the perverts that care about seeing this sorta stuff.  Because I don't care about seeing it... maybe it's just me.

Won't somebody think of the mansas out there?!

[path]

I agree with Bebop.

[Larrath]

Wow, great... just what we need.  No offense or anything, but I think we just need to leave the whores and catamites off in the "subtly suggested" category that they exist in the game rather than fleshing out this part of the game world - bleh.  Sorry, just seems really silly to me... I don't think we need to cater to the [/i]perverts that care about seeing this sorta stuff.

First of all, something very important that I want to say:
Fictional characters performing fictional deeds has nothing to do with who their players are.
I've had characters that were ruthless characters, scheming liars, backstabbers and even a rapist (though he didn't target any PCs).  I've played pedophiles, bisexuals and people that thought sex is gross.
As a person, I'm not ruthless, not scheming, not a backstabber, not bisexual and definitely not a rapist.  I don't think I'm more perverse than anyone that doesn't think sex itself is perverse.

Now to the real point: Zalanthas' society is starkly different from Earth society in several very serious ways.
One of these ways is that the sexes are socially equal, and that sex itself is cheap and almost never carries any stigma.
Another difference is that the society (at virtually all levels, including nobles and sometimes even templars) is highly superstitious about dozens of different things - the position of Jihae and/or Lirathu, the position of Suk-Krath, the number of feathers worn, excessive paleness, red hair, long fingers, bad things that happen as a result of casual encounters with magickers, praying to the Sorcerer King for protection, etc..

The equality of the sexes is very frequently reminded, and it's not very rare to see a gruff female Bynner.  And sometimes these female Bynners are treated the way they ought to, even.  The fact that sex is cheap and trivial (as opposed to standard fantasy One True Love) isn't often reminded, and people generally tend to look down on prostitutes ICly.  More NPC prostitutes, especially well-dressed ones in high positions, can do much to remind players of what Zalanthas is like and how love should be treated.
It's not like these NPCs are animated for hot player-on-staffer action.

And if you think it shouldn't be reminded so much, just think about superstitions in-game.  During the past half-year (either RL or IC), how many truly superstitious PCs have you seen?
Now remind yourself that roughly 90% of all Zalanthans are at least somewhat superstitious.


These reminders have a real and important purpose, and that is to help refine the game atmosphere and make it easier to understand.  It has nothing to do with being perverted, and neither does roleplaying a perverted character.

[Agent_137]

Thanks to Delirium there is now a male whore in Luirs, and one more to come.  

Wow, great... just what we need.  No offense or anything, but I think we just need to leave the whores and catamites off in the "subtly suggested" catagory that they exist in the game rather than fleshing out this part of the game world - bleh.  Sorry, just seems really silly to me... I don't think we need to cater to the perverts that care about seeing this sorta stuff.  Because I don't care about seeing it... maybe it's just me.

do we play the same game?

Attitudes towards sexuality are broad. Homosexuality is common, and not seen as aberrant. Multiple sex partners are common among Zalanthans, particularly in the upper classes.

If lines of text bother you, perhaps you should not be on the information super highway?

[Clearsighted]

I don't see what's the problem with most whores being women.

Males of all species have a bigger sex drive. It's a biological thing. It's required for procreation.

Or do the helpfiles really claim that women are biologically and genetically as strong as men and as biologically driven to procreate? Wouldn't the addition of those chromesomes make for some very manly women?

In which case I would think that was just silly.

I can understand Zalanthas having different social mores owing to the unique cheapness of life, but some things are just embedded on us genetically and follow rules as old as the universe. Whether you're a human being or a chimpanzee. And I doubt Zalanthas natives are as different from us as chimpanzees.

[Gimfalisette]

Or do the helpfiles really claim that women are biologically and genetically as strong as men and as biologically driven to procreate?

Yes.

[Clearsighted]

Or do the helpfiles really claim that women are biologically and genetically as strong as men and as biologically driven to procreate?

Yes.

Are you /certain/ about that? There is a VAST difference between cultural and social mores being equal, and between our *genetic DNA* being the same. That would mean that women as we know it, do not exist in Zalanthas, but are more hairy and larger with more manly features. Like Ann Coulter on steroids.

Where do all those extra hormones and chromesomes come from? Can't you imagine the implications?

I think it is far more logical to assume that the equality is culturally and socially as it is. Not genetically.

[Gimfalisette]

On Zalanthas, male and female of a given race can be equally strong, fast, smart, enduring, etc. This is the way the game is coded, and this is the way the game is played. You asked if they were equal in this respect, and they are. That is why a female Bynner is just as likely (or unlikely) to be able to kick your ass as a male Bynner.

Obviously male and female are not -exactly- genetically the same, but in terms of physical capability (other than roles in childbearing), yes, they are the same.

[Clearsighted]

On Zalanthas, male and female of a given race can be equally strong, fast, smart, enduring, etc. This is the way the game is coded, and this is the way the game is played. You asked if they were equal in this respect, and they are. That is why a female Bynner is just as likely (or unlikely) to be able to kick your ass as a male Bynner.

Obviously male and female are not -exactly- genetically the same, but in terms of physical capability (other than roles in childbearing), yes, they are the same.

There are alot of things codewise that are equal that are not neccessarily the case from a RP perspective.

I can code-wise skin a kank in 5 seconds. It doesn't mean that genetically, I have super-fast kank-skinning reflexes.

And I'm perfectly willing to allow that Zalanthas unique environment causes there to be a lesser gap between male and female strength and physical well being, then there is an modern industrialized society.

But you can't abscribe it to genetics or hormones or biology. That opens up a whole can of worms. There is a reason that most men are johns and most women are prostitutes. Women and men and males of females of EVERY species ever documented, have different sex drives, conducive to their evolution.

[Gimfalisette]

And I'm perfectly willing to allow that Zalanthas unique environment causes there to be a lesser gap between male and female strength and physical well being, then there is an modern industrialized society.

But you can't abscribe it to genetics or hormones or biology. That opens up a whole can of worms. There is a reason that most men are johns and most women are prostitutes. Women and men and males of females of EVERY species ever documented, have different sex drives, conducive to their evolution.

There is not a "lesser gap between male and female strength and physical well being" on Zalanthas. There is NO gap at all. That's the way the code works, and that's the way it is to be roleplayed, whether you allow it or not. There have been about 87 thousand threads on this topic...search on gender or sexism and you'll see.

[Clearsighted]

And I'm perfectly willing to allow that Zalanthas unique environment causes there to be a lesser gap between male and female strength and physical well being, then there is an modern industrialized society.

But you can't abscribe it to genetics or hormones or biology. That opens up a whole can of worms. There is a reason that most men are johns and most women are prostitutes. Women and men and males of females of EVERY species ever documented, have different sex drives, conducive to their evolution.

There is not a "lesser gap between male and female strength and physical well being" on Zalanthas. There is NO gap at all. That's the way the code works, and that's the way it is to be roleplayed, whether you allow it or not. There have been about 87 thousand threads on this topic...search on gender or sexism and you'll see.

It's possible for there to still be a difference but just not codewise significantly unless you deliberately buck the trend.

Otherwise, why are 90% of male PCs/NPCs more musclebound, and 90% of female NPCs/PCs more lithe? In fact. It's somewhat self enforcing, since I've seen most male PCs take much higher heights and weights than female PCs do. Yes. As befits the culture, there are plenty of muscled females as well. Since they're socially and culturally equal and have all the same opportunities.

But I HIGHLY doubt there is a perfect 50/50 split for male/female warriors and male/female prostitutes.

Your insistance that the way it's coded actually represents Zalanthas women having more hormones and tetesterone than men is rediculous.

It's not even a matter of equality. It's just the way we're built as a biological species. How all species are biologically built.

Women aren't inferior to men because less of them play football or join the army. Less women /want/ to play football or join the army.

[Larrath]

This thread has derailed into completely ridiculous.

In the fantasy world of Zalanthas, women are physically equal to men.  This is a part of the game reality and society.
Reproductive urges are still different.  The biology is different.

There are about as many male prostitutes as there are female prostitutes - don't forget that homosexuality and bisexuality are both highly common, and the fact that prostitution can be very lucrative.  One of the highest social positions in Allanak is a Noble's Concubine.


Moving on to PCs and NPCs:
PCs: more male PCs are musclebound than female PCs because a lot of players enjoy playing characters they feel are very attractive.  I'm not particularly happy with this fact, but it is a fact.  The PCs don't really represent the populace of Zalanthas - PCs rarely live past the age of 27, and even poor commoner NPCs could probably live to age 40.

NPCs: I really don't think your 90% ratio is correct at all.  It's more likely closer to 30%, with two reasons:
1) A lot of NPCs serve a purpose, particularly NPC bodyguards and soldiers.  Professional fighters need to be strong and muscular, and people working for Noble Houses need to be attractive in order to be hired in the first place.
2) Allanak has 400k people living there, including around 150,000 slaves.  I don't really think Allanak should get 150,000 slave NPCs, and not even 150 slave NPCs in order to represent this.  There's a VNPC population, and it is huge.  It's very difficult to make the NPC population represent all layers of society, but if you want to help out, write up some muscular woman or priss man aide/prostitute, or half-giant children or what-not.

Finally, on all matters biological, just suspend your disbelief.  I really don't see why it's so hard to see why a society that has lived on a brutal world for a few good centuries has developed to the degree that women and men are equally strong.  This is far more plausible than, say, the principles of magick.

[Clearsighted]

I find it perfectly plausible that the harsh nature of the Zalanthan world, just as it has in certain periods of human history yet heightened, has caused there to be no appreciatively significant difference codewise between male and female physical potential, depending on where they choose to exert themselves.

Yet the vast majority of men, represented by both the NPCs and PCs, tend to represent themselves as bigger and more masculine than women. Surprisingly, most of the women NPCs and PCs seem to adhere towards more feminine norms. Yet some in this thread feel that is wrong, or instances of misunderstanding the game world. How? There can be masculinity and femininity and still be equal. Some of the most vocal supporters seem to somehow feel that women being less masculine than men makes them inferior. That is a completely cutural idea. Zalanthan equality is not that all women are masculine and therefore equal, it is that whether masculine or feminine, it makes no difference. Owing to the Zalanthan cultural reality, there is plenty of opportunity for women to be masculine and for men to be female.

Yet more men are still going to be masculine, and more women are still going to be feminine.  But if your interpretation of the theme is such that the vast majority of PCs and NPCs contradict it, or that they are unable to maintain parity with reality, that suggests to me that something is deeply and fundamentally off with the implementation.

I think that some of the blind insistance (not by you Larrath, but by others) that men and female are biologically/genetically the same, with the same biological dispositions is an incredibly silly interpretation of the files.  Hell. In most roleplaying games, you don't have your female or male PCs stats lowered or raised for your gender to have a significant gameplay perspective.