combat...still a little flaky?

[jmordetsky]

I was recently p-owned by a n00b warrior, i thought perhaps that it was just due to my general not-log-inedness, but then a close associate mentioned that his 100+ day combat pc (yes, I did say 100+ day) was decimated (like 3hp decimated) by two rentarri.

I mean, harsh is harsh, but rentarris?!! It's been a while since ive toed to toed with a rentarri but my general opinion of them was that if all the mobs on ARM were sent to prison, rentarri's and trigels would be on the less then consenting receiving end.

So I want to bring this back up for discussion. Are the players happy with this? Are Imms happy with this?

Can we just put it back?

[Flaming Ocotillo]

I like the new combat system. I can be a newb and still have a chance to kill someone. And if I'm not a newb, I have to be wary of anyone holding a weapon.

Burn the skill system - everyone's a level 51 warrior now and I love it!

You just need to think of Armageddon as something akin to that text game that came out recently, called "Dwarf Fort". You're destined to die, but it's exciting to watch the story before your brains get splattered all over the place from a lucky hit to the head.

[Flaming Ocotillo]

Also, half-giants rule the day.

If you have karma to make one, go make one and hit the nearest armed PC/NPC to see what happens.

Before, you would miss a lot due to low agility, but with the new code, you don't really miss so much, since everyone can hit everyone.

And before people misinterpret my posts as bitter sarcasm, I want to clarify that I love the new code. The idea that anyone can attack anyone now and it can lead to a fatality, even if it's 100 day vs 0 day, is plenty cool to me. I am very into the idea of everyone being massacred at the swing of a weapon to the head. I gave even more thumbs up to the previous code before the minor fixes, where my character was swinging a trident and halberd around and kicking serious ass, without having any of the weapon skills for the weapon type.

Bring back the old version of the new code, where people couldn't parry! I want to use the trident and halberd again.

[jmordetsky]

I knew I was going to regret this post.

[joyofdiscord]

I haven't experienced the new code firsthand, but it sounds like just what the doctor ordered, really.  I remember yawning through round after round after round (after round after round...) of parries in arena matches between warrior PCs, and I thought, this just doesn't feel the realistic, gritty, brutal combat that this mud should have.  Now, with how everyone's describing it, I feel like combat is finally going to be painful, confusing, and quick, which it should be.

[Agent_137]

I like hard, brutal combat.

I'm not a big fan of -fast- combat.

This is both.

Whatever.

[rufus]

You're destined to die,

It sucks when a well-established character goes down the plumbing.
Not just your own, anyone's, someone you interacted with, conflicted with, etc.
I find that when I finally start having fun, I get eated by a tregil.

[spawnloser]

Having experienced the combat code recently, I'm a fan of it.

I love the daze code, having been both dazer and dazee.

I love the fix to the defensive skill bug, having been both defender and defendee.  (Though, I'm not sure if defendee actually works well as a noun.)

People now actually have to worry that a noob may get off that lucky shot, which should ALWAYS be a possibility.  People have to keep in mind that just because they have 4 more days on a combat character than another character, it doesn't mean they are impenetrable like they used to be.

In any game I've ever played, there is always the chance that the lucky can prevail over the skilled, and I thoroughly LOVE that this is now the case on Armageddon.

Keep in mind that, according to staff, the skilled will still more than likely still own the non-skilled.  It just leaves the option of the lucky accomplishing something lucky.

[Flaming Ocotillo]

It sucks when a well-established character goes down the plumbing.
Not just your own, anyone's, someone you interacted with, conflicted with, etc.
I find that when I finally start having fun, I get eated by a tregil.

Armageddon is the HnS of roleplay-enforced MUDs, which is one of the reasons it's so popular.

Spells that X? Spells that X with no way to avoid either? Poisons that X? A single swing to the head being able to collapse your character? There are so many ways to die instantly in this game, and no effort made to change them. Why? Because this is the way Armageddon has been since it was introduced as a roleplay-enforced MUD. It's the HnS of roleplay-enforced MUDs. This newest code change just shifts combat towards being as brutal as the rest of the game is.

You know, I've always found character creation lifespans in Armageddon to be somewhat comical, considering all our chars manage to live years and years, but are almost destined to die in the first year we play them. This MUD isn't so much about making that "legendary character", than it is about making those "legendary moments". Sort of like, uh.. the Animatrix DVD with its small clip segments and short character lifespans.

EDITED by Halaster to remove IC information.

[FightClub]

Sort of like, uh.. the Animatrix DVD with its small clip segments and short character lifespans.

I don't think faces of death would cover some of the stuff I've been through and done.

[UnderSeven]

To be fair, I don't think the poster is off the wall in making a post, but I do think the context needs to be considered.  That being none of us really know what that context is.  So many factors could be involved in this and there is that not every npc is created equal to my understanding, varation exists even between two of the same kind.

My point is this.  This isn't a great discussion topic because we the players involved do not know the specifics at all, it would of been better sent straight to staff to look into via an email or better yet, the request tool.

[Barzalene]

F/O please edit your post. Too much info. Thanks.

[Bakha]

I mean, harsh is harsh, but rentarris?!! It's been a while since ive toed to toed with a rentarri but my general opinion of them was that if all the mobs on ARM were sent to prison, rentarri's and trigels would be on the less then consenting receiving end.

Sure you're not confusing rantarri with ritikki?

[Delirium]

When a brand new combat character, non warrior class, can regularly land hits on an extremely accomplished and long-lived combat character, it feels a little like cheating.  It feels jarring and unsettling that they suddenly have a prayer against someone that should be chewing them up and spitting them out for lunch without a second's pause.

At the very least, I would like to see consideration given to tweaking the defensive skills of the long-lived characters that are affected by this change - they should not be at the disadvantage (due to a bug) that they are now.

[Halaster]

I think the combat system is just fine now, personally.  After looking at your PC, jmordetsky... yep, it works just as it should.

[Clearsighted]

When a brand new combat character, non warrior class, can regularly land hits on an extremely accomplished and long-lived combat character, it feels a little like cheating.  It feels jarring and unsettling that they suddenly have a prayer against someone that should be chewing them up and spitting them out for lunch without a second's pause.

At the very least, I would like to see consideration given to tweaking the defensive skills of the long-lived characters that are affected by this change - they should not be at the disadvantage (due to a bug) that they are now.

I currently have a PC who fights a wide range of other PCs, both of equal skill, much greater skill and much lesser, on a somewhat daily basis.

I haven't really noticed anything different, except a couple hits here and there. And I certainly haven't seen it affect a win or a loss. Except possibly, with a half-giant who only needs to get 1 hit in. And well, fighting a HG is just sort've one of those things you need to accept as always potentially fatal no matter your greater finesse.

So yeah, after participating in or watching 20-30 different fights, all I've noticed about the combat change is that fights tend to end quicker than they used to (Which is nice, actually, if you've watched a 15 minute spar before) and every now and then, someone will go to 'relatively fit' instead of excellent condition.

Might help poisoners some.

[Halaster]

I'ved had to edit two posts to remove information that should be kept IC for people to discover.  Please be careful when posting.

[Hot_Dancer]

Are shields working properly? Since the change I havn't seen one hit go through my shield armor location like it did before. (with apparently reduced damage)

Nor have I seen hits bounced off a shield-like armor location.

Hot Dancer

[Kelamson]

Are shields working properly? Since the change I havn't seen one hit go through my shield armor location like it did before. (with apparently reduced damage)

Nor have I seen hits bounced off a shield-like armor location.

I've seen both, with a character that didn't do much combat. Also had a couple of straight-forward fights and one that my character was winning but had to flee from due to a lucky head hit by an opponent.

I still give the code the thumbs up, although admittedly I haven't seen how it affects ueber fighters.

[Halaster]

Are shields working properly? Since the change I havn't seen one hit go through my shield armor location like it did before. (with apparently reduced damage)

Nor have I seen hits bounced off a shield-like armor location.

Hot Dancer

Yeah it works, maybe you're just having bad luck.  But it's more likely to totally block a blow than absorb it, like it used to (i.e. it's better than it used to be)

[Hymwen]

After quite a bit of sparring since the new shield code went in, I haven't seen one "hits you, barely grazing your shield" type of thing. I have however noticed a lot more full blocks than before, and even my fresh new warrior PC can frequently block two attacks per round. I like this, shield use has been made into something seriously good, and dual wield is the all-out offense tactic that it should be, with appropriate disadvantages.

[najdorf]

If shields are not anymore taking blows arent they going to become "used", "cracked", vs.
I would personally like to see shields shattering and crackling into unusuable pieces in combatant's hands, just like weapons do.
what kind of a shield can block a skilled HG warrior's brutal attacks? A sturdy one may be, which IMO cant be produced easily with Zalanthan raw materials.

[LoD]

One of the things I always enjoyed about the combat system prior to the change was that a mundane combat PC was capable of reaching a point where they had little to fear from any single humanoid opponent engaging them in melee who was not of equal or greater ability.  With enough time, training, and effort - they were able to attain a level where tactics might be needed in order to take them down hand to hand if they were armed and ready.

There were still plenty of dangers inherent in the gang code, monster critters kicking/bashing for 50 health, backstab, poison, ranged combat, and obviously, magick.  It was still plenty easy to run into some trouble if you went poking about in bad places, even if you were one of these uber fighters.

It was this way for years, perhaps even a decade, and I don't feel as if the story suffered much as a result.  So someone was able to blow through some gith after 10 days of powergaming?  Big deal.  Is it really hurting the storyline all that much?  Were new players leaving by the droves because practiced combat PC's were pwning them in sparring matches?  There are simple ways to discourage unrealistic behavior (i.e. fighting bahamets, mekillots, silt horrors) that don't involve changing a model that's been working pretty well for quite some time.

What I miss is the depth and potential disparity between fighters that existed with the bug.  Using a shield made a big difference, which it really does if you've ever fought anyone.  Combat was a bit slower because there were more parries, blocks, and dodges, which I really don't see as a bad thing because it gave way to more potential story.  Tactics to bring down one of the long lived fighters of the Known World were needed in order to have a chance, which meant that you actually had to think about what you were doing instead of just getting some friends together or having a high strength score.

I understand the arguements made for the change, and I agree with some of them.  However, I don't really feel that it made the MUD a better place or a better environment for storytelling.  Stats become more important to success in combat.  Fast typing becomes more necessary for survival.  Combat becomes a much more dangerous and scary choice, which I know some people think is as it should be - I get that - but this is a fantasy game where people enjoy trying things they wouldn't do in real life.  

The previous code drew out combat a bit, which I know some people probably complained about when it was abused (i.e. 30 minute sparring matches), but I think that it also helped provide time for people to emote actions, communicate with one another, and develop a scene rather than typing flee and having one finger hovering over it after combat ensues.  Whether this change will be for the better or worse won't be easily seen until some time has passed and players have been able to expand under the new sets of rules.  However, some of things that I always enjoyed about the game are now different, and we'll have to see if the story benefits from the change.

-LoD

[Morgenes]

If shields are not anymore taking blows arent they going to become "used", "cracked", vs.
I would personally like to see shields shattering and crackling into unusuable pieces in combatant's hands, just like weapons do.
what kind of a shield can block a skilled HG warrior's brutal attacks? A sturdy one may be, which IMO cant be produced easily with Zalanthan raw materials.

Even a blocked blow damages shields, and they will splinter apart over prolonged use.

[Clearsighted]

LoD,

It is pretty much the same as it ever was before. I do not think a single veteran warrior has lost a match that he wouldn't have lost before this was implemented.

I have in fact seen a veteran warrior quite recently devastate three other warriors who were all fairly skilled in a 3 on 1.  If this change was such a big deal as to significantly punish an experienced fighter, I do not see how this would be possible.  All I have personally noticed is that new players who wouldn't normally get in a single hit, tend to get one weak blow in if they're lucky.

So like I said before. Unless you're fighting something massively strong (like some NPCs or a HG) this won't be an issue. And there have been more than a few complaints raised about people soloing some of the huge NPCs anyways, which this addresses a little.

My own philosophy when it comes to combat is that just like in RL, you should rely on teamwork, rather than expect soloing to be the norm. If you're fighting something dangerous one on one, you're pretty much already lost half the battle. Even hunters and gatherers should adhere to this more, IMO, though I understand, that owing to the limits of a mud and people to RP with, people need more soloing capacity than is realistic.