OOC Policing

[Clearsighted]

EDIT: In hindsight, I probably reacted too strongly. Thus, I removed the content of this post since it was written in a time of anger.

The content of it, sans vitriol, is that overeager OOC policing detracts from RP more than the occassional faux pas.

[X-D]

Not another players job to directly police another players play, period.

Thats staffs job, players job is to report, staffs job to then decide if it warrents correction or if they should tell the complaining player that it is acceptable.

Myself, I will simply type ooc End OOC and not respond to farther OOC, if they continue say more then 1 time after I've said end then I log everything and mail mud.

[spawnloser]

On the flip side, sometimes it seems that someone needs help or doesn't understand something correctly.

Using your own examples, Clearsighted, emoting something that is a thought or feeling is granting everyone around you the ability to read your character's mind.  In the one where you basically OOC'd that you missed that you weren't regenning was unnecessary.

I can't, having not seen what was all entailed in this 'tirade,' truly defend or revile the person that did such.  However, it is possible that the person was only trying to help.  It is also possible the person did it in an abrasive manner, or that you simply took the offered assistance in the wrong light.  There are all sorts of errors in communication that could have happened resulting from either side involved in the communication.

My advice, for both people involved in these sorts of situations:

Helper: One OOC giving a quick, "Hey, didn't know if you knew this, but ..."  If there is further issue, send a 'player complaint' using the request tool so that the staff can handle any further issues with the other player.

Helper: If you feel a self-appointed helper is crossing the bounds into policing, send a 'player complaint' with a log of the 'help.'  The players-don't-need-to-be-policing thing goes both ways.  Let the staff handle it.

[Clearsighted]

Spawnloser,

Does this require needing to read my mind?

Player A beats the *crap* out of Player B. (or something similarly flavored)

Player C looks at Player A and says "You best go easier on me." (or something similarly flavored)

Player C seems to realize he is outclassed. (or something similarly flavored)

That simple second emote adds a whole inflection to the previous statement that may have been missed if simply spoken as a say and nothing else. And it does not require mind reading to deduce. It might not have been 'neccessary' but it wasn't crossing any boundaries either.

There are a great deal of subtle nuances in facial expressions, eyes widening, or simply the tone of our voice. It can't be conveyed textually, but personally, we pick up on these meanings instinctively. It is just a way of adding character to a statement, and making it a more coherent roleplaying environment. You'll see alot of that on mushes. Less so on RPI muds where hardly a sentence of exposition is the norm. Whereas on a mush, you'll see 3-4 sentences being the minimum. It's nice to escape that on Armageddon. But it still doesn't change what metaposing is or isn't.

I think that the only person whom could possibly consider that a case of metaposing, is someone whom was unfamiliar with what metaposing truly entails.

Afterall, would this be metaposing?

Player A seems tired.

Furthermore, I think following someone five rooms away (when their character would zero IC reason to do so) simply to get in the last couple OOC statements to a sleeping character can be categorized as a 'tirade'.

In hindsight, perhaps I shouldn't have OOCed. Even though it was only a brief headsup for his benefit since it was midnight and just us around. But my contention is that however near it might have skirted the line, his response (I.E to the point of following another PC on the grid to continue explaining himself OOCly) was far more distracting and rude.

[spawnloser]

Well, just to keep you thinking on it, since you actually seem to be going in the right direction...almost...

If you emoted realizing your character was outclassed, when there are so many ways to show this...why didn't you show us?  Truly, the object here is to show, not tell.  Your character is attractive, describe how the character is attractive rather than tell us outright.  Your character realizes something, show the symptoms of this realization rather than make it easy on us...make us have to interpret.

Perhaps your character has a mannerism that shows something about your character?  Perhaps your character doesn't show surprise in the same way as everyone else...perhaps s/he overreacts, gasping audibly while flinching to the point of falling off his/her stool.  That brings yet more depth to your character, creating a more immersive environment for everyone involved in the scene.

[Clearsighted]

You are right, Spawnloser.

It is quite possible that somehow, I could have managed to convey that in an way that was less in the gray area. There is no doubt about that. Though, I would still contend that emoting that you look intimidated is no more metaposing than looking tired or haggard.

My main contention is that OOCly mentioning it, even though it was borderline, and trying to make a debate out of it, is much more harmful. In this first incident, he actually kept OOCing about it while I was trying to rp-spar with someone else. He made me stop emoting altogether, since it just totally killed my immersion. It was why in the second incident, when he actually followed me into another room to continue lecturing me, I was even more pissed.

The fact that he had somehow amassed 3 karma or more, and seemed to have a habit of OOCly lecturing people, troubled me. I could sit there OOCly picking apart his every action, but I'd rather bat an eye and preserve the flow of a scene, then pretend I'm staff just cause I amassed a karma or two.

I was upset enough the second time to come here and find out if this was even remotely the norm. I've just recently returned to playing Armageddon after taking a 3 year back, and didn't recall ever being treated like that in the past.

[Lizzie]

I think it's a matter of semantics but if done often enough can really be annoying to people.

How do I know what you seem to realize? Is there some facial expression you're displaying? Did your shoulders slump abruptly? What, about you, demonstrated this realization that I'm noticing?

The same goes for "seems tired." How do I know what you are experiencing? I want to know. I want to know what I'm reacting to. Are your eyes bloodshot, so I might gaze into those bloodshot eyes and tsk tsk you? Did you just slump in a heap, half-passed out on the floor, so I might step around the cot and crouch down, in attempt to help lift you onto the cot?

When you tell me how your character feels, you remove my ability to respond to what I see - because you're not telling me what I see. You in essence end the roleplay of the moment.

As for the chump who followed you around, if he really thought you were doing something *that* bad he should've just logged the event and e-mailed mud. Or used the wish command if he felt immediate intervention was needed. By that point you probably should've e-mailed mud with your own complaint about it.

I use OOC probably more often than I should but I've found it necessary to avoid IC reprocussions for OOC priorities. "OOC Sorry, can't do this task now, gotta log in 5 minutes" is less stressing than spending 3 minutes trying to come up with an IC excuse for refusing a direct order from your IC boss, spending the next 2 minutes RPing that IC excuse and the IC reprocussions of it, and then suddenly going "poof" or walking out in the middle of the scene so you can actually get out of the game. So that's what I do, and I haven't heard any complaints so I'm guessing I'm not overstepping the boundaries. Also sometimes I'll encounter a bug with something I'm trying to do, need to figure out what's going on, and know that things are about to look really stupid for anyone watching. So I'll OOC to let them know to just ignore me a few moments because I'm trying to figure out a bug.

L. Stanson

[Barzalene]

I don't like your emote. I also don't like to hear you've been harangued. My advise is to dismiss the giver of this advice without dismissing the advice itself. To follow someone  room to room oocly yelling at them for using the ooc command... well it's got some comical qualities, doesn't it? Sheesh.

[Sokotra]

I would suggest not taking the comments of the person so personal.  I imagine they were just trying to help.

On the other hand, I've also had some people irritate the crap out of me because they thought they were so elite and could do no wrong.  

I remember one time I had this character involved in a certain noble House during a time that I was never on during 'peak' hours that the other clan members were playing.  A certain character that was supposed to be in a position of trust was using some pretty OOC tactics in order to make himself look better.  Pretty lame.  

So if you are looking at the advice and situation that happened to you as objectively as possible, I would report the problem if it continues to happen and let the staff look at the logs and figure things out.  The only problem is that I imagine this is probably pretty time consuming and I would give the player the benefit of the doubt.

If they continue treating things that are IC as they should, and not using OOC situations to sway their character's actions, then I'd let it go and just try to take the advice as objectively as possible.  You are the newer player, afterall.  I'm not saying they are completely right, but they may have some good points - although I'm sure they could have gone about it in a less friggin' annoying way.

[Beux]

That simple second emote adds a whole inflection to the previous statement that may have been missed if simply spoken as a say and nothing else. And it does not require mind reading to deduce.

I totally agree with this. Often players complain about people detailing every tiny action that a character makes. Often a certain emotion that is easily conveyed through facial expression and tone would be very difficult to actual describe. I *know* when someone looks scared, or said, but I wouldn't know how to describe the morph that their features undertake when they feel these emotions.

Maybe 'realising he was outclassed' wasn't the best way of putting it, but certainly describing his words as accompanied with worry, anxiety or fear would, in my eyes, be perfectly acceptable.

Code Select Expand



Laced with fear, the big man says, "You better go easy on me."

His eyebrows twitching, eyes widened, lips at a slightly angular quiver, brows furrowed ever so slightly in the middle, a hesitant inflection in his tone,  the big man says...



You get my drift...it's totally pointless. So don't say by compacting that into 'fear' is forcing the feeling upon someone. It is merely a way of summing up all the expressions and tones that accompany fear, the other person involved can still opt not to pick up on it.

Some people are just too 'elite' for their own good. Tbh.

[Clearsighted]

It's not something I would take to staff. They got better things to do. And as for being a newer player? I don't think 3-4 years is new, despite a long break. And I'm sure this guy earned his 3 karma somehow. Maybe he is a really good solo RPer.  Which I know if I ever want karma, I should love, but it just feels...wrong to me beyond the occassional (almost reflexive) emit. If I'm the only one who showed up for weapon maintenance, I'm not going to sit there for an hour posing to myself. I'll set an ldesc, do an emit, and do what my character would ICly do. Work quietly.

I usually brush such things off, but considering it happened to me twice, and since it ruined my desire to further RP both times, I decided to see what the group consensus was. I'm glad I posted, because some of the comments were very enlightening.

Edit: And I just want to repeat that I am well aware the emote in the first example was not the height of RP. Though I did emote it more colorfully at the time. I am not defending it. It was a fast paced scene. The main point was just showing how borderline it was, and how actually launching into a one-sided OOC lecture that clearly noone needed, actually did more to harm the scene than a minor liberty in the heat of the moment. And I still wouldn't have posted about it, if it hadn't happened a second time with even less justification.

Though, back on the emote I don't think the eyes widening, lip trembling would've worked. I was trying to portray an ambivalent acknowledgement of my inferiority withou being flippant.

[Sokotra]

It's not something I would take to staff. They got better things to do.
...
I usually brush such things off, but considering it happened to me twice, and since it ruined my desire to further RP both times, I decided to see what the group consensus was. I'm glad I posted, because some of the comments were very enlightening.

Right, I would try to avoid taking it to the staff as much as possible, but if it is affecting the game and your desire to RP... if it continues... then it might be getting to that point.  Yeah, I think it is far from that point right now and it was a good idea to come here and ask for advice.  Hopefully the other player sees this and will lighten up a bit.

I'm also not the best at describing facial features that would convey a certain thought or emotion, so I just tend to keep it simple.  Some people are really good at thinking up a quick emote to describe how their PC's face looks scared, worried, yet determined all at the same time.  Me?  I suck at it.  If you are anything like me, I think the main idea is to just do the best you can without describing thoughts too much with an emote.  Simple expressions of how you feel would make sense, as described in the post Beux made.  

But yeah, the consensus, as far as I can tell... is that the player badgered you a little too much and needs to back off on the OOC lecturing.

[Xygax]

All of these are bad emotes, and the other player may have been right to correct you OOCly, unfortunately using the "ooc" command in-game is a poor venue.  A better idea would have been to send feedback via e-mail.

Since they didn't, and since you provided such excellent examples, and since the deconstruction of your examples could be illustrative to others, I'll do that:

Player A beats the *crap* out of Player B. (or something similarly flavored)

This is a bad emote.  You don't specify whether player A or player B is the author, but in both cases, this emote is an example of what we typically call a "power-emote".  If you want to beat the crap out of someone, it's a Diku-MUD, you're free to do so -- likewise with having the crap beaten out of you.  Furthermore, you are choosing an interpretation ("beats the crap") on your viewer by using very subjective language.  I would consider this emote very jarring and very subjectively constructed.  If you don't have time for a more objective and/or descriptive emote, just let it pass.  You'll get another chance.

Player C looks at Player A and says "You best go easier on me." (or something similarly flavored)

This is a bad emote.  I'll assume that player C is the author, since it should be obvious that if player A is the author, the emote is wildly inappropriate.  The problem with player C sending this emote is that the emote circumvents the language systems.  If some other player in the room watching shouldn't normally have been able to understand your remarks, you have just shown them what you said in the text of the emote.  A better version of this, which would yield -identical- results, but better formatted, making using of the language systems, and less jarring would be this:

Code Select Expand

say (looking at ~playerA)You best go easier on me.

Player C seems to realize he is outclassed. (or something similarly flavored)

There has been some debate over the years about whether this is a bad emote.  It certainly falls into the gray area of potentially being a bad emote, since it yields an insight into what your character is thinking in a subjective way.  Again, you are better served by confining yourself to objective/descriptive emotes -- you do not have the same freedom you might have in literature.  Yes, we're telling a story here, but think of it more as writing stage direction and dialogue and less like writing a novel.  You should be telling us what your character is -doing-, not what he is thinking, nor how we should be interpreting his thoughts.  You are at risk of crossing this line whenever you use the phrase "seems to" in your emote, and even moreso whenever you are employing a term like "realize".  Step out of yourself for just a moment and think about what a camera (or audience-member in a theater) would see watching your face or your body and write that as your emote instead.  As you become craftier at this, you'll find that scenes around you with flow much more smoothly and rhythmically, and the other actors in your scenes won't be going OOC to yell at you.

We (the other players, not the staff) are as much your audience as we are your fellow actors, and so in some sense you share a responsibility for crafting the scene you're in with us.  Your duty as an actor in a scene is to do your best not to break the flow of the scene and to follow the "house style" in architecting your verbiage.  Everyone benefits from your effort.

-- X

[Marauder Moe]

It is a textual medium, so we can't always explain the inflections of our voice or body language.

This is true for OOC communication too.  Perhaps this "OOC tirade" and "hammering at" you was just this person trying to help out someone he perceived to be a new player?  I mean, by your own admission, you made some mistakes typical of new players (emoting your character's thoughts, not realizing that you don't heal from rest at a certain HP, OOCing about an IC excuse that would have worked just fine by itself).

If you don't want help, just POLITELY go OOC and tell the person.  No need to keep quiet in the game and rant on the GDB instead, trying to make this player, who will obviously know you're talking about him, feel like an ass.

[Clearsighted]

Xygax,

Just so you know, those weren't how the emotes actually looked. I was roughly paraphrasing them as an example. There weren't any power emotes or circumventing of the say command. That would certainly require OOC intervention.

I.E Player A beats the crap out of player B was actually a series of emotes in a short brutal and horrifically one sided sparring where the repeated 'solid slashes to the head' spoke for itself. And the comment afterward was done with the usual 'say (to ~blah blah) so and so'

I wasn't more specific because it could lead to identification and that is supposedly bad. But it looked better than that, trust me. I was just conveying the general setting.

That said, your treatment of the third and last emote was helpful. I knew it was in the gray area, but I found your own take on very informative.

This is true for OOC communication too.  Perhaps this "OOC tirade" and "hammering at" you was just this person trying to help out someone he perceived to be a new player?  I mean, by your own admission, you made some mistakes typical of new players (emoting your character's thoughts, not realizing that you don't heal from rest at a certain HP, OOCing about an IC excuse that would have worked just fine by itself).

If you don't want help, just POLITELY go OOC and tell the person.  No need to keep quiet in the game and rant on the GDB instead, trying to make this player, who will obviously know you're talking about him, feel like an ass.

If you saw me ingame, you would not think I was a new player.

I did not emote my character's thoughts. I attempted, in a fast pace scene, to skip into the gray area to convey his basic 'attitude' of ambivilant acceptance to his own coming brutalizing. And yeah, strangely, whenever I got below that HP limit in the past, it usually resulted in death.

And frankly? I hope he does read this and feel like an ass. I did politely go OOC and tell him and it didn't faze him.

I was not a player that needed to be helped. Noone would think I did. I'm not perfect, but the point was that attempting to OOC lecture someone can make a far greater disruption than what ever possible infraction might have ocurred (which in this case, are very debatable).

I know when someone is genuinely trying to help me, and when they're being a dick. I could've corrected him on a couple things too.

[Xygax]

And yes, you may struggle to convey subtleties like body-language or vocal inflection in your writing, but please, please, please try.  Witnessing an emote that conveys these intricacies concisely is -- and I'm really not exaggerating here -- sublime.  I love to watch the players that manage it; I love to play in scenes with them.  They are the players around whom the grit and dust and violence and brutality of the world seem to truly come to life, even when they're not directly referencing it.

And believe me, I am not advocating flowery emotes here.  I love the term "concise" since I think it is at the core of an effective emote.  But that doesn't mean that you cannot convey subtlety or intricacy.

-- X

[Bluefae]

I've just recently returned to playing Armageddon after taking a 3 year back, and didn't recall ever being treated like that in the past.

First and foremost, welcome back!  I hope it's been enjoyable on the whole.

In my 14 months or so in our shared mad-house, I've only been OOC'ed to "police" my role-play some two or three times, and all those from the same player.  While I agree that your emote is in a gray area, I experience having another player break character to tell me how I've fouled-up a scene as far more jarring than all but the most egregious emoting "sins".  

If the behavior persists, log it and let the appropriate Imms know what's going on.  Otherwise, let it roll off your back, and find some other folks to enjoy this wonderful game.  At the end of the day, I play Arm for FUN, as, I suspect, do most people here.  Spending one's time being raked over the coals for a textual fau paux usually isn't.

[Cuusardo]

It's one thing to politely OOC a bit of help to someone, but it's another thing entirely to keep breaking character while other people are trying to RP a scene.  And to follow someone elsewhere with the specific intent of keeping OOCly on their ass about it ruins roleplay.  If that person had such a huge problem with your emote, he should have logged it and sent in a player complaint through the request tool, rather than breaking character for that long.

[Rhyden]

Hmm,

The player who went OOC could have been just trying to help you, or maybe they were trying to be an ass. I dunno. But I'd say assume they were trying to help, since it's most likely. On the internet, it's really difficult to pick out somebody's tone unless it's blatantly obvious.

This is what I found odd:

This player then goes into an OOC tirade, pointing me to the help file on OOC which I've already read. I told him as much, and then left. Whereupon he followed me into another room to continue repeatedly OOCing at me about it.

If you both went OOC and then you left, isn't it as if you tried to get the last word in on an OOC level? That seems a bit iffish and perhaps that's why the other played followed your character into the other room. *Shrug*

But ya, I think this player should have probably just sent in a complaint with the request tool rather than going OOC although when I was newer in arm, I took in all the OOC I could get, if it was in game or feedback from the staff. I think I've been playing Arm for three years now and I still feel like I'm one of the newer players. In fact, I -am- one of the newer players. Have you seen how long some of these other guys have been playing? Nutty.

So, in summary. Assume the best and don't take stuff people tell you too personally because it may just be advice.

[Belenos]

I'm not speaking officially, this is simply my viewpoint.

For the the emotes, follow a simple rule.  Show, don't tell.  Let the audience make it's own determination as to what your body language, and vocal intonations are telling them.

For the ooc.  Follow simple rules as well.  Keep it short and sweet and limited to what is needed to be conveyed right then.  Don't police emotes or RP, but do feel free to provide constructive advice via the request tool.  Logs would be helpful.  For the recipient of the unsolicited advice, if it makes you feel uncomfortable, also feel free to send in a log via the request tool.   Some people do go over the top.  Some are well intentioned, some are not. Don't respond in kind to ooc's to correct someone else's ooc.

[jhunter]

I absolutely cannot stand this sort of thing:

emote looks really pissed.

change ldesc is standing here looking pissed.

emote looks sad.

To me, it is along the same lines as the reasoning why we do -not- put certain things in our character descriptions. It's in the rules as far as character descriptions go.
As a few others have said: "Show me, don't tell me." In the above examples, the emoter is -forcing- the interpretation on the witnessing players.

A better way of doing those same things, using the "show me, don't tell me" idea would be:

emote scowls and narrows his eyes, glaring around him.

change ldesc is standing here, glaring venomously.

emote frowns, his lower lip quivering as tears well up in his eyes.

Now granted these aren't the greatest but, you get the idea right?

As for following someone into another room to continue OOC'ing them...

If someone were to just walk off on me while I was attempting to help them OOC (which I rarely ever do anyway). I'd just assume that they didn't want my help and drop it. (Likely, I'd avoid interaction with them later unless IC meant I had to.) Following someone and continuing to OOC when they've made it clear that it is unwanted is just plain bad form. The best way to handle it would've been to send an email to the staff to try and have them get the player some help in another form.

[jstorrie]

If you have specific complaints about player conduct you should make those complaints with the staff request tool. Ranting on the GDB serves no purpose.

[Agent_137]

If you have specific complaints about player conduct you should make those complaints with the staff request tool. Ranting on the GDB serves no purpose.

As does ranting with the OOC command.

Issue settled.

[spawnloser]

Issue settled.

I think this thread is done...as everything has been said that needs to, in my opinion.

[Barzalene]

I love jhunter...even when he's wrong.

You're wrong Jhunter.

I've been around people I don't know and glanced over and thought, oh they look sad.

I've never looked at anyone and thought oh that woman looks sad, because her boss doesn't recognize her contributions in the workplace.

So and so looks sad is completely valid.

So and so looks sad because... everthing after sad, not valid.