OOC Policing

[Clearsighted]

EDIT: In hindsight, I probably reacted too strongly. Thus, I removed the content of this post since it was written in a time of anger.

The content of it, sans vitriol, is that overeager OOC policing detracts from RP more than the occassional faux pas.

[X-D]

Not another players job to directly police another players play, period.

Thats staffs job, players job is to report, staffs job to then decide if it warrents correction or if they should tell the complaining player that it is acceptable.

Myself, I will simply type ooc End OOC and not respond to farther OOC, if they continue say more then 1 time after I've said end then I log everything and mail mud.

[spawnloser]

On the flip side, sometimes it seems that someone needs help or doesn't understand something correctly.

Using your own examples, Clearsighted, emoting something that is a thought or feeling is granting everyone around you the ability to read your character's mind.  In the one where you basically OOC'd that you missed that you weren't regenning was unnecessary.

I can't, having not seen what was all entailed in this 'tirade,' truly defend or revile the person that did such.  However, it is possible that the person was only trying to help.  It is also possible the person did it in an abrasive manner, or that you simply took the offered assistance in the wrong light.  There are all sorts of errors in communication that could have happened resulting from either side involved in the communication.

My advice, for both people involved in these sorts of situations:

Helper: One OOC giving a quick, "Hey, didn't know if you knew this, but ..."  If there is further issue, send a 'player complaint' using the request tool so that the staff can handle any further issues with the other player.

Helper: If you feel a self-appointed helper is crossing the bounds into policing, send a 'player complaint' with a log of the 'help.'  The players-don't-need-to-be-policing thing goes both ways.  Let the staff handle it.

[Clearsighted]

Spawnloser,

Does this require needing to read my mind?

Player A beats the *crap* out of Player B. (or something similarly flavored)

Player C looks at Player A and says "You best go easier on me." (or something similarly flavored)

Player C seems to realize he is outclassed. (or something similarly flavored)

That simple second emote adds a whole inflection to the previous statement that may have been missed if simply spoken as a say and nothing else. And it does not require mind reading to deduce. It might not have been 'neccessary' but it wasn't crossing any boundaries either.

There are a great deal of subtle nuances in facial expressions, eyes widening, or simply the tone of our voice. It can't be conveyed textually, but personally, we pick up on these meanings instinctively. It is just a way of adding character to a statement, and making it a more coherent roleplaying environment. You'll see alot of that on mushes. Less so on RPI muds where hardly a sentence of exposition is the norm. Whereas on a mush, you'll see 3-4 sentences being the minimum. It's nice to escape that on Armageddon. But it still doesn't change what metaposing is or isn't.

I think that the only person whom could possibly consider that a case of metaposing, is someone whom was unfamiliar with what metaposing truly entails.

Afterall, would this be metaposing?

Player A seems tired.

Furthermore, I think following someone five rooms away (when their character would zero IC reason to do so) simply to get in the last couple OOC statements to a sleeping character can be categorized as a 'tirade'.

In hindsight, perhaps I shouldn't have OOCed. Even though it was only a brief headsup for his benefit since it was midnight and just us around. But my contention is that however near it might have skirted the line, his response (I.E to the point of following another PC on the grid to continue explaining himself OOCly) was far more distracting and rude.

[spawnloser]

Well, just to keep you thinking on it, since you actually seem to be going in the right direction...almost...

If you emoted realizing your character was outclassed, when there are so many ways to show this...why didn't you show us?  Truly, the object here is to show, not tell.  Your character is attractive, describe how the character is attractive rather than tell us outright.  Your character realizes something, show the symptoms of this realization rather than make it easy on us...make us have to interpret.

Perhaps your character has a mannerism that shows something about your character?  Perhaps your character doesn't show surprise in the same way as everyone else...perhaps s/he overreacts, gasping audibly while flinching to the point of falling off his/her stool.  That brings yet more depth to your character, creating a more immersive environment for everyone involved in the scene.

[Clearsighted]

You are right, Spawnloser.

It is quite possible that somehow, I could have managed to convey that in an way that was less in the gray area. There is no doubt about that. Though, I would still contend that emoting that you look intimidated is no more metaposing than looking tired or haggard.

My main contention is that OOCly mentioning it, even though it was borderline, and trying to make a debate out of it, is much more harmful. In this first incident, he actually kept OOCing about it while I was trying to rp-spar with someone else. He made me stop emoting altogether, since it just totally killed my immersion. It was why in the second incident, when he actually followed me into another room to continue lecturing me, I was even more pissed.

The fact that he had somehow amassed 3 karma or more, and seemed to have a habit of OOCly lecturing people, troubled me. I could sit there OOCly picking apart his every action, but I'd rather bat an eye and preserve the flow of a scene, then pretend I'm staff just cause I amassed a karma or two.

I was upset enough the second time to come here and find out if this was even remotely the norm. I've just recently returned to playing Armageddon after taking a 3 year back, and didn't recall ever being treated like that in the past.

[Lizzie]

I think it's a matter of semantics but if done often enough can really be annoying to people.

How do I know what you seem to realize? Is there some facial expression you're displaying? Did your shoulders slump abruptly? What, about you, demonstrated this realization that I'm noticing?

The same goes for "seems tired." How do I know what you are experiencing? I want to know. I want to know what I'm reacting to. Are your eyes bloodshot, so I might gaze into those bloodshot eyes and tsk tsk you? Did you just slump in a heap, half-passed out on the floor, so I might step around the cot and crouch down, in attempt to help lift you onto the cot?

When you tell me how your character feels, you remove my ability to respond to what I see - because you're not telling me what I see. You in essence end the roleplay of the moment.

As for the chump who followed you around, if he really thought you were doing something *that* bad he should've just logged the event and e-mailed mud. Or used the wish command if he felt immediate intervention was needed. By that point you probably should've e-mailed mud with your own complaint about it.

I use OOC probably more often than I should but I've found it necessary to avoid IC reprocussions for OOC priorities. "OOC Sorry, can't do this task now, gotta log in 5 minutes" is less stressing than spending 3 minutes trying to come up with an IC excuse for refusing a direct order from your IC boss, spending the next 2 minutes RPing that IC excuse and the IC reprocussions of it, and then suddenly going "poof" or walking out in the middle of the scene so you can actually get out of the game. So that's what I do, and I haven't heard any complaints so I'm guessing I'm not overstepping the boundaries. Also sometimes I'll encounter a bug with something I'm trying to do, need to figure out what's going on, and know that things are about to look really stupid for anyone watching. So I'll OOC to let them know to just ignore me a few moments because I'm trying to figure out a bug.

L. Stanson

[Barzalene]

I don't like your emote. I also don't like to hear you've been harangued. My advise is to dismiss the giver of this advice without dismissing the advice itself. To follow someone  room to room oocly yelling at them for using the ooc command... well it's got some comical qualities, doesn't it? Sheesh.

[Sokotra]

I would suggest not taking the comments of the person so personal.  I imagine they were just trying to help.

On the other hand, I've also had some people irritate the crap out of me because they thought they were so elite and could do no wrong.  

I remember one time I had this character involved in a certain noble House during a time that I was never on during 'peak' hours that the other clan members were playing.  A certain character that was supposed to be in a position of trust was using some pretty OOC tactics in order to make himself look better.  Pretty lame.  

So if you are looking at the advice and situation that happened to you as objectively as possible, I would report the problem if it continues to happen and let the staff look at the logs and figure things out.  The only problem is that I imagine this is probably pretty time consuming and I would give the player the benefit of the doubt.

If they continue treating things that are IC as they should, and not using OOC situations to sway their character's actions, then I'd let it go and just try to take the advice as objectively as possible.  You are the newer player, afterall.  I'm not saying they are completely right, but they may have some good points - although I'm sure they could have gone about it in a less friggin' annoying way.

[Beux]

That simple second emote adds a whole inflection to the previous statement that may have been missed if simply spoken as a say and nothing else. And it does not require mind reading to deduce.

I totally agree with this. Often players complain about people detailing every tiny action that a character makes. Often a certain emotion that is easily conveyed through facial expression and tone would be very difficult to actual describe. I *know* when someone looks scared, or said, but I wouldn't know how to describe the morph that their features undertake when they feel these emotions.

Maybe 'realising he was outclassed' wasn't the best way of putting it, but certainly describing his words as accompanied with worry, anxiety or fear would, in my eyes, be perfectly acceptable.

Code Select Expand



Laced with fear, the big man says, "You better go easy on me."

His eyebrows twitching, eyes widened, lips at a slightly angular quiver, brows furrowed ever so slightly in the middle, a hesitant inflection in his tone,  the big man says...



You get my drift...it's totally pointless. So don't say by compacting that into 'fear' is forcing the feeling upon someone. It is merely a way of summing up all the expressions and tones that accompany fear, the other person involved can still opt not to pick up on it.

Some people are just too 'elite' for their own good. Tbh.

[Clearsighted]

It's not something I would take to staff. They got better things to do. And as for being a newer player? I don't think 3-4 years is new, despite a long break. And I'm sure this guy earned his 3 karma somehow. Maybe he is a really good solo RPer.  Which I know if I ever want karma, I should love, but it just feels...wrong to me beyond the occassional (almost reflexive) emit. If I'm the only one who showed up for weapon maintenance, I'm not going to sit there for an hour posing to myself. I'll set an ldesc, do an emit, and do what my character would ICly do. Work quietly.

I usually brush such things off, but considering it happened to me twice, and since it ruined my desire to further RP both times, I decided to see what the group consensus was. I'm glad I posted, because some of the comments were very enlightening.

Edit: And I just want to repeat that I am well aware the emote in the first example was not the height of RP. Though I did emote it more colorfully at the time. I am not defending it. It was a fast paced scene. The main point was just showing how borderline it was, and how actually launching into a one-sided OOC lecture that clearly noone needed, actually did more to harm the scene than a minor liberty in the heat of the moment. And I still wouldn't have posted about it, if it hadn't happened a second time with even less justification.

Though, back on the emote I don't think the eyes widening, lip trembling would've worked. I was trying to portray an ambivalent acknowledgement of my inferiority withou being flippant.

[Sokotra]

It's not something I would take to staff. They got better things to do.
...
I usually brush such things off, but considering it happened to me twice, and since it ruined my desire to further RP both times, I decided to see what the group consensus was. I'm glad I posted, because some of the comments were very enlightening.

Right, I would try to avoid taking it to the staff as much as possible, but if it is affecting the game and your desire to RP... if it continues... then it might be getting to that point.  Yeah, I think it is far from that point right now and it was a good idea to come here and ask for advice.  Hopefully the other player sees this and will lighten up a bit.

I'm also not the best at describing facial features that would convey a certain thought or emotion, so I just tend to keep it simple.  Some people are really good at thinking up a quick emote to describe how their PC's face looks scared, worried, yet determined all at the same time.  Me?  I suck at it.  If you are anything like me, I think the main idea is to just do the best you can without describing thoughts too much with an emote.  Simple expressions of how you feel would make sense, as described in the post Beux made.  

But yeah, the consensus, as far as I can tell... is that the player badgered you a little too much and needs to back off on the OOC lecturing.

[Xygax]

All of these are bad emotes, and the other player may have been right to correct you OOCly, unfortunately using the "ooc" command in-game is a poor venue.  A better idea would have been to send feedback via e-mail.

Since they didn't, and since you provided such excellent examples, and since the deconstruction of your examples could be illustrative to others, I'll do that:

Player A beats the *crap* out of Player B. (or something similarly flavored)

This is a bad emote.  You don't specify whether player A or player B is the author, but in both cases, this emote is an example of what we typically call a "power-emote".  If you want to beat the crap out of someone, it's a Diku-MUD, you're free to do so -- likewise with having the crap beaten out of you.  Furthermore, you are choosing an interpretation ("beats the crap") on your viewer by using very subjective language.  I would consider this emote very jarring and very subjectively constructed.  If you don't have time for a more objective and/or descriptive emote, just let it pass.  You'll get another chance.

Player C looks at Player A and says "You best go easier on me." (or something similarly flavored)

This is a bad emote.  I'll assume that player C is the author, since it should be obvious that if player A is the author, the emote is wildly inappropriate.  The problem with player C sending this emote is that the emote circumvents the language systems.  If some other player in the room watching shouldn't normally have been able to understand your remarks, you have just shown them what you said in the text of the emote.  A better version of this, which would yield -identical- results, but better formatted, making using of the language systems, and less jarring would be this:

Code Select Expand

say (looking at ~playerA)You best go easier on me.

Player C seems to realize he is outclassed. (or something similarly flavored)

There has been some debate over the years about whether this is a bad emote.  It certainly falls into the gray area of potentially being a bad emote, since it yields an insight into what your character is thinking in a subjective way.  Again, you are better served by confining yourself to objective/descriptive emotes -- you do not have the same freedom you might have in literature.  Yes, we're telling a story here, but think of it more as writing stage direction and dialogue and less like writing a novel.  You should be telling us what your character is -doing-, not what he is thinking, nor how we should be interpreting his thoughts.  You are at risk of crossing this line whenever you use the phrase "seems to" in your emote, and even moreso whenever you are employing a term like "realize".  Step out of yourself for just a moment and think about what a camera (or audience-member in a theater) would see watching your face or your body and write that as your emote instead.  As you become craftier at this, you'll find that scenes around you with flow much more smoothly and rhythmically, and the other actors in your scenes won't be going OOC to yell at you.

We (the other players, not the staff) are as much your audience as we are your fellow actors, and so in some sense you share a responsibility for crafting the scene you're in with us.  Your duty as an actor in a scene is to do your best not to break the flow of the scene and to follow the "house style" in architecting your verbiage.  Everyone benefits from your effort.

-- X

[Marauder Moe]

It is a textual medium, so we can't always explain the inflections of our voice or body language.

This is true for OOC communication too.  Perhaps this "OOC tirade" and "hammering at" you was just this person trying to help out someone he perceived to be a new player?  I mean, by your own admission, you made some mistakes typical of new players (emoting your character's thoughts, not realizing that you don't heal from rest at a certain HP, OOCing about an IC excuse that would have worked just fine by itself).

If you don't want help, just POLITELY go OOC and tell the person.  No need to keep quiet in the game and rant on the GDB instead, trying to make this player, who will obviously know you're talking about him, feel like an ass.

[Clearsighted]

Xygax,

Just so you know, those weren't how the emotes actually looked. I was roughly paraphrasing them as an example. There weren't any power emotes or circumventing of the say command. That would certainly require OOC intervention.

I.E Player A beats the crap out of player B was actually a series of emotes in a short brutal and horrifically one sided sparring where the repeated 'solid slashes to the head' spoke for itself. And the comment afterward was done with the usual 'say (to ~blah blah) so and so'

I wasn't more specific because it could lead to identification and that is supposedly bad. But it looked better than that, trust me. I was just conveying the general setting.

That said, your treatment of the third and last emote was helpful. I knew it was in the gray area, but I found your own take on very informative.

This is true for OOC communication too.  Perhaps this "OOC tirade" and "hammering at" you was just this person trying to help out someone he perceived to be a new player?  I mean, by your own admission, you made some mistakes typical of new players (emoting your character's thoughts, not realizing that you don't heal from rest at a certain HP, OOCing about an IC excuse that would have worked just fine by itself).

If you don't want help, just POLITELY go OOC and tell the person.  No need to keep quiet in the game and rant on the GDB instead, trying to make this player, who will obviously know you're talking about him, feel like an ass.

If you saw me ingame, you would not think I was a new player.

I did not emote my character's thoughts. I attempted, in a fast pace scene, to skip into the gray area to convey his basic 'attitude' of ambivilant acceptance to his own coming brutalizing. And yeah, strangely, whenever I got below that HP limit in the past, it usually resulted in death.

And frankly? I hope he does read this and feel like an ass. I did politely go OOC and tell him and it didn't faze him.

I was not a player that needed to be helped. Noone would think I did. I'm not perfect, but the point was that attempting to OOC lecture someone can make a far greater disruption than what ever possible infraction might have ocurred (which in this case, are very debatable).

I know when someone is genuinely trying to help me, and when they're being a dick. I could've corrected him on a couple things too.

[Xygax]

And yes, you may struggle to convey subtleties like body-language or vocal inflection in your writing, but please, please, please try.  Witnessing an emote that conveys these intricacies concisely is -- and I'm really not exaggerating here -- sublime.  I love to watch the players that manage it; I love to play in scenes with them.  They are the players around whom the grit and dust and violence and brutality of the world seem to truly come to life, even when they're not directly referencing it.

And believe me, I am not advocating flowery emotes here.  I love the term "concise" since I think it is at the core of an effective emote.  But that doesn't mean that you cannot convey subtlety or intricacy.

-- X

[Bluefae]

I've just recently returned to playing Armageddon after taking a 3 year back, and didn't recall ever being treated like that in the past.

First and foremost, welcome back!  I hope it's been enjoyable on the whole.

In my 14 months or so in our shared mad-house, I've only been OOC'ed to "police" my role-play some two or three times, and all those from the same player.  While I agree that your emote is in a gray area, I experience having another player break character to tell me how I've fouled-up a scene as far more jarring than all but the most egregious emoting "sins".  

If the behavior persists, log it and let the appropriate Imms know what's going on.  Otherwise, let it roll off your back, and find some other folks to enjoy this wonderful game.  At the end of the day, I play Arm for FUN, as, I suspect, do most people here.  Spending one's time being raked over the coals for a textual fau paux usually isn't.

[Cuusardo]

It's one thing to politely OOC a bit of help to someone, but it's another thing entirely to keep breaking character while other people are trying to RP a scene.  And to follow someone elsewhere with the specific intent of keeping OOCly on their ass about it ruins roleplay.  If that person had such a huge problem with your emote, he should have logged it and sent in a player complaint through the request tool, rather than breaking character for that long.

[Rhyden]

Hmm,

The player who went OOC could have been just trying to help you, or maybe they were trying to be an ass. I dunno. But I'd say assume they were trying to help, since it's most likely. On the internet, it's really difficult to pick out somebody's tone unless it's blatantly obvious.

This is what I found odd:

This player then goes into an OOC tirade, pointing me to the help file on OOC which I've already read. I told him as much, and then left. Whereupon he followed me into another room to continue repeatedly OOCing at me about it.

If you both went OOC and then you left, isn't it as if you tried to get the last word in on an OOC level? That seems a bit iffish and perhaps that's why the other played followed your character into the other room. *Shrug*

But ya, I think this player should have probably just sent in a complaint with the request tool rather than going OOC although when I was newer in arm, I took in all the OOC I could get, if it was in game or feedback from the staff. I think I've been playing Arm for three years now and I still feel like I'm one of the newer players. In fact, I -am- one of the newer players. Have you seen how long some of these other guys have been playing? Nutty.

So, in summary. Assume the best and don't take stuff people tell you too personally because it may just be advice.

[Belenos]

I'm not speaking officially, this is simply my viewpoint.

For the the emotes, follow a simple rule.  Show, don't tell.  Let the audience make it's own determination as to what your body language, and vocal intonations are telling them.

For the ooc.  Follow simple rules as well.  Keep it short and sweet and limited to what is needed to be conveyed right then.  Don't police emotes or RP, but do feel free to provide constructive advice via the request tool.  Logs would be helpful.  For the recipient of the unsolicited advice, if it makes you feel uncomfortable, also feel free to send in a log via the request tool.   Some people do go over the top.  Some are well intentioned, some are not. Don't respond in kind to ooc's to correct someone else's ooc.

[jhunter]

I absolutely cannot stand this sort of thing:

emote looks really pissed.

change ldesc is standing here looking pissed.

emote looks sad.

To me, it is along the same lines as the reasoning why we do -not- put certain things in our character descriptions. It's in the rules as far as character descriptions go.
As a few others have said: "Show me, don't tell me." In the above examples, the emoter is -forcing- the interpretation on the witnessing players.

A better way of doing those same things, using the "show me, don't tell me" idea would be:

emote scowls and narrows his eyes, glaring around him.

change ldesc is standing here, glaring venomously.

emote frowns, his lower lip quivering as tears well up in his eyes.

Now granted these aren't the greatest but, you get the idea right?

As for following someone into another room to continue OOC'ing them...

If someone were to just walk off on me while I was attempting to help them OOC (which I rarely ever do anyway). I'd just assume that they didn't want my help and drop it. (Likely, I'd avoid interaction with them later unless IC meant I had to.) Following someone and continuing to OOC when they've made it clear that it is unwanted is just plain bad form. The best way to handle it would've been to send an email to the staff to try and have them get the player some help in another form.

[jstorrie]

If you have specific complaints about player conduct you should make those complaints with the staff request tool. Ranting on the GDB serves no purpose.

[Agent_137]

If you have specific complaints about player conduct you should make those complaints with the staff request tool. Ranting on the GDB serves no purpose.

As does ranting with the OOC command.

Issue settled.

[spawnloser]

Issue settled.

I think this thread is done...as everything has been said that needs to, in my opinion.

[Barzalene]

I love jhunter...even when he's wrong.

You're wrong Jhunter.

I've been around people I don't know and glanced over and thought, oh they look sad.

I've never looked at anyone and thought oh that woman looks sad, because her boss doesn't recognize her contributions in the workplace.

So and so looks sad is completely valid.

So and so looks sad because... everthing after sad, not valid.

[Overone]

When you look at someone and think, "Damn, they look sad," this is obviously an observation brought on by their demeanor and facial expressions.  It is also worth noting that some people portray sadness in different ways.. some more subtle than others.  It is possible to know someone is sad after spending years being friends with the person, while some stranger would have no clue that this person was in fact feeling upset.

This is why I believe 'emote looks sad' is in bad form.  I think it is simply more fun to have the possibility of a person not knowing you are sad by your expression, but perhaps interpreting it as something entirely different.  Maybe you look fine to me or for some reason, to me, you look pissed off.  If I think you look fine and don't comment on your mood, then maybe you get pissed at me for not noticing your pain and we can RP some more from there.

[Morfeus]

I agree. Unfortunately, my expression never hints I am sad. I could be close to tears, but people around are most probably going to think I am angry.

[Barzalene]

When you look at someone and think, "Damn, they look sad," this is obviously an observation brought on by their demeanor and facial expressions.  It is also worth noting that some people portray sadness in different ways.. some more subtle than others.  It is possible to know someone is sad after spending years being friends with the person, while some stranger would have no clue that this person was in fact feeling upset.

This is why I believe 'emote looks sad' is in bad form.  I think it is simply more fun to have the possibility of a person not knowing you are sad by your expression, but perhaps interpreting it as something entirely different.  Maybe you look fine to me or for some reason, to me, you look pissed off.  If I think you look fine and don't comment on your mood, then maybe you get pissed at me for not noticing your pain and we can RP some more from there.

Your not liking it is completely valid, that does not however make it bad.
I'd much rather say em shakes her head sadly and suspiciously,  than, slowly shakes her head as her mouth turns down at the corner and her shoulders slump forward, the left, slightly more than the right, and and she squints her left eye and narrows her right drawing her brows close together. However, you may go on and emote it any old way you please. Viva la difference.

[Cowboy]

How does one "shake her head...suspiciously?"

[Barzalene]

How does one "shake her head...suspiciously?"

Give me a break.

[manonfire]

How does one "shake her head...suspiciously?"

Like this.

Code Select Expand


The portly, bearded young woman shakes her head, eyes narrowed to thin slits.


[Beux]

Thats not suspicious.

Thats girl shaking her head in disagreement with a vague hint of confusemant as to why the person she's shaking her head at could be so disillusioned.

[WarriorPoet]

I'm going to agree with Barzalene, here.

If someone emotes shaking her head suspiciously, her face contorting with anger, or her eyes closing in ecstasy, I'm getting an image of what she's trying to portray. It's no better or worse than going into detail to describe -exactly- how she shakes her head, contorts her face, or closes her eyes. In fact, I would rather have a bit of brevity rather than someone who's going to ramble on and on about the tightening of their cerulaan visage to a slightly-wrinkled tautness, when instead they could just 'emote looks displeased'.

That said, it's not up to the players to condemn other players for any sort of emoting short of 'god-modding' or mass twinkery. If you have that big of a problem with something, a brief OOC will do. If the problem continues, use the request tool and lodge a complaint. Going into an OOC tirade inside the game is only going to make you look like an asshole and, even worse, ruin the atmosphere for others.

-WP

[Quirk]

Don't let's be silly here.

Facial expressions involve the contortion of multiple muscular groups. Missing out even part of the expression's description can render it painfully ambiguous: where are the eyebrows? the corners of the mouth? the eyelids? what's the orientation of the head? The eyebrows are raised: is the person shocked, or surprised, or amused, or signalling to their companion that they've made a mistake?

There are too many subtle cues in body language for insistence that it should all be literally rendered into text to be reasonable. If your intent is to preserve some ambiguity, by all means describe elements of the facial expression, but where the expression is not meant to be misunderstood it's perfectly sensible to use words like "suspicious" and "sad". And most expressions shouldn't be ambiguous; while people with autism and Asperger's syndrome may have difficulty reading the intent of others' body language, most of us understand each other just fine.

[Xygax]

You needn't describe every tick and twitch, but there are still workable alternatives to ":looks sad".  How about "pem face falls" or "pem eyes well up with tears" or ":turns ^me head away, hiding ^me eyes and emitting a soft sob"

I'm not saying ":looks sad" should be considered forbidden, or bad form.  But it's pretty feeble compared to the alternatives.  And it doesn't leave much room for interpretation or misunderstanding (which is the best sort of mayhem, imho).  I'm not saying you can't eye people suspiciously (adverbs are hard to get rid of, in any case), I'm just saying try harder.  

The fact that the "narrowed eyes" example above was interpreted differently by a subsequent reader in a good thing, imho (if you ignore the fact that the subsequent reader was probably being pedantic to prove an insignificant point on an internet forum).

-- X

[manonfire]

Thats not suspicious.

Thats girl shaking her head in disagreement with a vague hint of confusemant as to why the person she's shaking her head at could be so disillusioned.

Maybe I missed your document about objective emotes. Link me?

[Viagra_Kank]

Agree with the original poster.

Some people ought to lighten up.

[Beux]

Thats not suspicious.

Thats girl shaking her head in disagreement with a vague hint of confusemant as to why the person she's shaking her head at could be so disillusioned.

Maybe I missed your document about objective emotes. Link me?

No...i wasn't being pedantic. I read that description. Imagined it. And thats what I would have interpreted as. Or at least, thats what I would mean if I was pulling that face.

[Lizzie]

While it's nitpicking, it's also really annoying to see it often, or habitually by someone you have to RP with regularly. Fortunately I haven't come across it much in Arm. But there is a -huge- difference, in my mind, between

Code Select Expand


The green-eyed gal looks sad
and

Code Select Expand

The green-eyed gal shakes her head sadly.

In the first, I don't know why I am able to tell that you look sad. Sad, in that case, is a state of mind, and unless I'm a mindbender I shouldn't be able to tell without some gesture on her part to indicate the way she looks, that would lead me to the conclusion that it's a sad look.

In the second, at least I can tell she "looks sad" because of the shake of her head. In the former, I don't even get that little hint. I have nothing to respond to, nothing to peer at, nothing to comment about. I get that gesture I mentioned is missing in the first example.

Again this is nitpicking but if the same characters do these things regularly, I would probably send a word to the staff asking them to explain to the player why it's important for them to be a *little* more descriptive when conveying their emotions through their actions. I don't need flowery emotes, just a hint. A gesture, like I said.

L. Stanson

[jhunter]

I love jhunter...even when he's wrong.

You're wrong Jhunter.

I've been around people I don't know and glanced over and thought, oh they look sad.

I've never looked at anyone and thought oh that woman looks sad, because her boss doesn't recognize her contributions in the workplace.

So and so looks sad is completely valid.

So and so looks sad because... everthing after sad, not valid.

No, I'm not.
When someone "looks sad" they don't turn around with a big sign on their forehead that says "looks sad" that displays their exact emotional state to everyone around them.
There is a reason they look sad to you, it is those specific formations of their expressions. One person's sad expression could look just like another's "mildly disappointed" or "annoyed". Each person has their own expressions that display these emotional states to others. There are some similarities but not everyone's is the same to the point that every person you meet's emotions are as readable as a sign on their forehead displaying their emotional state.

When you "emote looks sad" you send a perfect message of your pc's -exact- emotional state, something only those who would know your pc well (or a mindbender) should be able to get with this degree of certainty.
Yes, you may have turned around and looked at someone  thinking: "Oh, they look sad." But there is a middle step of that perception here, subconsciously or consciously, you noticed their facial expressions first and then interpreted it into the thought: "Oh, they look sad." When you use such simplistic and IMO, uncreative emoting you just give them the answer and take away and room for misinterpretation (which makes it unrealistic).

P.S. I love you too B.    Even when you're wrong.

[Belenos]

Please remember, it takes time to develop creative writing skills.  People don't spring from the womb with a quill pen in their hand and the ability to produce prose with the flair of a Hemingway.  For some folks describing their inner sorrow with a phrase like "looks sad" may be the level of writing that they are at currently.  This is fine.  Allow people the opportunity and space to grow their skills at producing creative prose.  

Negative reinforcement, or telling people what they shouldn't be doing often only serves to discourage them.  Instead of lecturing on the GDB or with OOC, show them a better way of presenting themselves by doing it yourself. I know I have learned far more from people that have proven themselves to be great role models, than I have by people who like to correct others.  This is not to say don't discuss, by all means do so, but in the process try not to judge. Lead by example.

[spawnloser]

I don't think anyone has said that people without Hemmingway's talent are bad people...just telling them to try not to write in as simplistic form as, "> em is sad."  Even, "> em looks sad," is better...because you aren't necessarily sad when you look that way.  I've been told many times that I look angry, even when I thought I was smiling...and this is in real life.

Of course, "> pem gaze drops as he turns his head, a single tear running down his cheek and his jaw tightening," is even better.  However, I don't think anyone is expecting that from everyone.

Still, everyone should pay attention to how other people do things, and they should pay attention to what works well and what doesn't.  Try not to emulate the tellers while trying to emulate the showers.  We can all get better together.

[X-D]

I think Lizzie has the right of it. Or least I feel the same way.

To me "em looks sad" feels somewhat like a power emote because your telling me how I have to interpret something...besides, Like Xygax said, its way boring. And I'm far from a flowery emoter and its still way boring.

Though, I'd never correct anybody who uses that style emote.

I will correct them if they do "em sits down feeling sad"...and don't think it does not happen, I've seen that type thing countless times.

[Safirefairy]

Coming from the perspective of someone that has only played for a few days, emoting on Arm can be highly intimidating. It is a very complex emote system compared to most other games.  While this is a good thing in the long run, it does take some time to master.  I can assure you that it will take me a long while.  
My writing skills are well above average, and I've been told I'm a reasonably skilled roleplayer.  It may take some time for either of those things to be obvious on Armageddon.  
Reading these posts makes me feel even more intimidated than before, honestly.  I understand in essence what it is that you all are saying, but it feels like many are being very elitest.
Please give those that don't meet your expectations a chance to learn without judging, as I can promise that will only drive people away.  An encouraging word or suggestion done right is a wonderful thing, but leave the judgement at home.

[Barzalene]

Coming from the perspective of someone that has only played for a few days, emoting on Arm can be highly intimidating. It is a very complex emote system compared to most other games.  While this is a good thing in the long run, it does take some time to master.  I can assure you that it will take me a long while.  
My writing skills are well above average, and I've been told I'm a reasonably skilled roleplayer.  It may take some time for either of those things to be obvious on Armageddon.  
Reading these posts makes me feel even more intimidated than before, honestly.  I understand in essence what it is that you all are saying, but it feels like many are being very elitest.
Please give those that don't meet your expectations a chance to learn without judging, as I can promise that will only drive people away.  An encouraging word or suggestion done right is a wonderful thing, but leave the judgement at home.

Welcome to Arm. The vocal minority aside, most players on Arm, know a newbie when we see one, (not based on talent, based on mechanics) an we know a good newbie when we see one. We appreciate the effort, and truly do welcome new players. Some of us are just too cranky to express that well.

[LauraMars]

Don't be intimidated, Safirefairy!  Welcome to the game!  We like you! Even the grumpy people aren't completely evil.  Deep down, I have this hope of the goodness of humanity.

ALSO, I WOULD LOVE TO HELP YOU IF YOU HAVE ANY QUESTIONS.

Now back to your regularly scheduled thread.

[spawnloser]

[a bunch of stuff about being intimidated]

First, let me say, as others have already, "Welcome!"

Second, it's not as bad as you think.  Here, on the GDB, it's okay to be opinionated and go off about stuff that bothers them...but really, most people are MORE than happy to help with mechanics issues, like how to use all the options that emoting gives us.  Hell, I am checking the emote/emoting helpfiles occasionally myself, and I'm sure others that have been here for a while are too, what with the addition of the + and = targetters that went in recently.

If you have any questions, make good use of the helpers.  That's what they're there for.  I suggest finding ones that use a messenger (AIM, Yahoo!, MSN, ICQ) that you use and adding them so that you can get more help as you need it.

[Angela Christine]

To me "em looks sad" feels somewhat like a power emote because your telling me how I have to interpret something...

Not necessarily.  Their character is projecting something but your character is still free to interpret or misinterpret it however you like.

I read "em looks sad" as the brief form of "em displays a combination of body language and facial expression that many people would consider to be sad looking".  The longer form is icky, and doesn't really give any more information than the short form.  My character is free to think she looks sad, she looks disappointed, she looks nervous, she looks like she has to pee, or she looks like a manipulative bitch who is pretending to be sad to get sympathy.  

A person can look sad without being sad.  I would object to "em is sad" but not to "em looks sad" because looks can be deceiving and are subject to interpretation.

[Vesperas]

Wow, this thread is just going everywhere.  I skipped page 3 and found page 4 talking about something completely different from pages 1 and 2.

To respond to OP:

I'm going to be honest here.  I think this uptight "OMFG-THEY-OOC'D-KILL-THEM!!!!!!" attitude of some of the players (and yes, they do take it to this extreme whether they admit it or not) is bullshit, but you just have to ignore it.  Every game is going to have its elitists; ours just believe that there is no such thing as curtesy between players if it means making fair use of POTENTIALLY abusive/annoying command.

You will know what is acceptable and what is not.  Talking about the Saturday game is not; setting up real-life times for a session/RPT on Saturday is.  

I use this rule of thumb:  If I find another player's actions extrodinarily funny, everyone else probably feels the same way.  If I'm going to be AFK, I make a short note on the GONE command, and then assume they'll know I'm back when my character starts participating in the game again.  If something weird or awkward happens that can not be idealistically explained in-game (bugs, real-life circumstances), a 1-liner is fine.

I hate to add this on for the potential flame it'll get, BUT:  if you play with a group of players consistantly and feel that you all have the same sense of humor, or like to talk about non-game stuff, set up a way to talk over email or a messenger.


To nitpick about emote styles, which would you go with:

The fat, bald woman nervously looks around.

The fat, bald woman appears nervous as she looks around.

There really isn't any difference in the two that I can see, besides that one is simply more preferable for you to use.  To say that someone 'appears sad' can easily be interpreted as someone '[insert mundane action]s sadly'.  You know what sort of attributes are commonly associated with sadness... so there is no need to complain about that type of emote.  The characters in question can STILL be deceiving you.


For all the welcoming:

Um, yes, welcome, whoever!  

[moab]

I don't think the point of the OP was "was this emote bad or good" but was this other dude a dink or not.

The person trying to do the correction was a dink.

I can understand the OP's frustration.  OP - the other play was a dink.

As for the emote - it's grey.

I personally have no problem with something like:

Realizing he is out classed, the gold-farmer scrambles back to his feet, grabs his 14-slot runecloth bag and runs south, nearly tripping over his slippers.

[X-D]

AC

X-D wrote:

To me "em looks sad" feels somewhat like a power emote because your telling me how I have to interpret something...

I did not say it is, just what it feels like to me.

So your post of...

Not necessarily. Their character is projecting something but your character is still free to interpret or misinterpret it however you like.

Is incorrect, unless you have suddenly become a mindbender and can determine how I feel and if I'm lying about it.

[Angela Christine]

AC

X-D wrote:

To me "em looks sad" feels somewhat like a power emote because your telling me how I have to interpret something...

I did not say it is, just what it feels like to me.

So your post of...

Not necessarily. Their character is projecting something but your character is still free to interpret or misinterpret it however you like.

Is incorrect, unless you have suddenly become a mindbender and can determine how I feel and if I'm lying about it.

Or my "not necessarily" could be referring to the other part of the sentence.  

X-D wrote:

To me "em looks sad" feels somewhat like a power emote because your telling me how I have to interpret something...

They are not necessarily telling you how you have to interpret something.  


I am not a mindbender.  Really.

[X-D]

I'm reporting you to Lord Templar Hardnose anyway...just to be safe.

[Bebop]

There are these people called the IMMs.  If you think someone is really powergaming or doing something they should be called out on don't have an OOC arguement about it wish up and have an IMM determine what is right or what is wrong if it's that frustrating to you.  Differen't people react different ways.

[MorganChaos]

Coming from the perspective of someone that has only played for a few days, emoting on Arm can be highly intimidating. It is a very complex emote system compared to most other games.  While this is a good thing in the long run, it does take some time to master.  I can assure you that it will take me a long while.  
My writing skills are well above average, and I've been told I'm a reasonably skilled roleplayer.  It may take some time for either of those things to be obvious on Armageddon.  
Reading these posts makes me feel even more intimidated than before, honestly.  I understand in essence what it is that you all are saying, but it feels like many are being very elitest.
Please give those that don't meet your expectations a chance to learn without judging, as I can promise that will only drive people away.  An encouraging word or suggestion done right is a wonderful thing, but leave the judgement at home.

*points* This person is me a year and a half ago.

Honey, don't worry. It takes some time to get the hang of it, but be patient and it will come. other people will generally be patient, too. Make a couple of freiends who know the game well (I volunteer!) and to be quite frank, stay of the GDB for awhile. Not that you're not welcome here, because you totally are, but as you noted, the GDB can be discouraging for newbies, and it's best to learn the game with a couple close friends, then jump into the community. That's how I did it and I happen to think I turned out well.

Welcome to Armageddon.

[Beux]

Whoo. I totally started the other way. I made zero IG friends, and jumped straight into the GDB, spammed you all with all my stupid newbie questions, and totally blocked out/ignored anyone who irked or discouraged me.

Whoo.

The GDB can be a really useful resource, but yeh, ignore the old grumps.