OOC Policing

[Overone]

When you look at someone and think, "Damn, they look sad," this is obviously an observation brought on by their demeanor and facial expressions.  It is also worth noting that some people portray sadness in different ways.. some more subtle than others.  It is possible to know someone is sad after spending years being friends with the person, while some stranger would have no clue that this person was in fact feeling upset.

This is why I believe 'emote looks sad' is in bad form.  I think it is simply more fun to have the possibility of a person not knowing you are sad by your expression, but perhaps interpreting it as something entirely different.  Maybe you look fine to me or for some reason, to me, you look pissed off.  If I think you look fine and don't comment on your mood, then maybe you get pissed at me for not noticing your pain and we can RP some more from there.

[Morfeus]

I agree. Unfortunately, my expression never hints I am sad. I could be close to tears, but people around are most probably going to think I am angry.

[Barzalene]

When you look at someone and think, "Damn, they look sad," this is obviously an observation brought on by their demeanor and facial expressions.  It is also worth noting that some people portray sadness in different ways.. some more subtle than others.  It is possible to know someone is sad after spending years being friends with the person, while some stranger would have no clue that this person was in fact feeling upset.

This is why I believe 'emote looks sad' is in bad form.  I think it is simply more fun to have the possibility of a person not knowing you are sad by your expression, but perhaps interpreting it as something entirely different.  Maybe you look fine to me or for some reason, to me, you look pissed off.  If I think you look fine and don't comment on your mood, then maybe you get pissed at me for not noticing your pain and we can RP some more from there.

Your not liking it is completely valid, that does not however make it bad.
I'd much rather say em shakes her head sadly and suspiciously,  than, slowly shakes her head as her mouth turns down at the corner and her shoulders slump forward, the left, slightly more than the right, and and she squints her left eye and narrows her right drawing her brows close together. However, you may go on and emote it any old way you please. Viva la difference.

[Cowboy]

How does one "shake her head...suspiciously?"

[Barzalene]

How does one "shake her head...suspiciously?"

Give me a break.

[manonfire]

How does one "shake her head...suspiciously?"

Like this.

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The portly, bearded young woman shakes her head, eyes narrowed to thin slits.


[Beux]

Thats not suspicious.

Thats girl shaking her head in disagreement with a vague hint of confusemant as to why the person she's shaking her head at could be so disillusioned.

[WarriorPoet]

I'm going to agree with Barzalene, here.

If someone emotes shaking her head suspiciously, her face contorting with anger, or her eyes closing in ecstasy, I'm getting an image of what she's trying to portray. It's no better or worse than going into detail to describe -exactly- how she shakes her head, contorts her face, or closes her eyes. In fact, I would rather have a bit of brevity rather than someone who's going to ramble on and on about the tightening of their cerulaan visage to a slightly-wrinkled tautness, when instead they could just 'emote looks displeased'.

That said, it's not up to the players to condemn other players for any sort of emoting short of 'god-modding' or mass twinkery. If you have that big of a problem with something, a brief OOC will do. If the problem continues, use the request tool and lodge a complaint. Going into an OOC tirade inside the game is only going to make you look like an asshole and, even worse, ruin the atmosphere for others.

-WP

[Quirk]

Don't let's be silly here.

Facial expressions involve the contortion of multiple muscular groups. Missing out even part of the expression's description can render it painfully ambiguous: where are the eyebrows? the corners of the mouth? the eyelids? what's the orientation of the head? The eyebrows are raised: is the person shocked, or surprised, or amused, or signalling to their companion that they've made a mistake?

There are too many subtle cues in body language for insistence that it should all be literally rendered into text to be reasonable. If your intent is to preserve some ambiguity, by all means describe elements of the facial expression, but where the expression is not meant to be misunderstood it's perfectly sensible to use words like "suspicious" and "sad". And most expressions shouldn't be ambiguous; while people with autism and Asperger's syndrome may have difficulty reading the intent of others' body language, most of us understand each other just fine.

[Xygax]

You needn't describe every tick and twitch, but there are still workable alternatives to ":looks sad".  How about "pem face falls" or "pem eyes well up with tears" or ":turns ^me head away, hiding ^me eyes and emitting a soft sob"

I'm not saying ":looks sad" should be considered forbidden, or bad form.  But it's pretty feeble compared to the alternatives.  And it doesn't leave much room for interpretation or misunderstanding (which is the best sort of mayhem, imho).  I'm not saying you can't eye people suspiciously (adverbs are hard to get rid of, in any case), I'm just saying try harder.  

The fact that the "narrowed eyes" example above was interpreted differently by a subsequent reader in a good thing, imho (if you ignore the fact that the subsequent reader was probably being pedantic to prove an insignificant point on an internet forum).

-- X

[manonfire]

Thats not suspicious.

Thats girl shaking her head in disagreement with a vague hint of confusemant as to why the person she's shaking her head at could be so disillusioned.

Maybe I missed your document about objective emotes. Link me?

[Viagra_Kank]

Agree with the original poster.

Some people ought to lighten up.

[Beux]

Thats not suspicious.

Thats girl shaking her head in disagreement with a vague hint of confusemant as to why the person she's shaking her head at could be so disillusioned.

Maybe I missed your document about objective emotes. Link me?

No...i wasn't being pedantic. I read that description. Imagined it. And thats what I would have interpreted as. Or at least, thats what I would mean if I was pulling that face.

[Lizzie]

While it's nitpicking, it's also really annoying to see it often, or habitually by someone you have to RP with regularly. Fortunately I haven't come across it much in Arm. But there is a -huge- difference, in my mind, between

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The green-eyed gal looks sad
and

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The green-eyed gal shakes her head sadly.

In the first, I don't know why I am able to tell that you look sad. Sad, in that case, is a state of mind, and unless I'm a mindbender I shouldn't be able to tell without some gesture on her part to indicate the way she looks, that would lead me to the conclusion that it's a sad look.

In the second, at least I can tell she "looks sad" because of the shake of her head. In the former, I don't even get that little hint. I have nothing to respond to, nothing to peer at, nothing to comment about. I get that gesture I mentioned is missing in the first example.

Again this is nitpicking but if the same characters do these things regularly, I would probably send a word to the staff asking them to explain to the player why it's important for them to be a *little* more descriptive when conveying their emotions through their actions. I don't need flowery emotes, just a hint. A gesture, like I said.

L. Stanson

[jhunter]

I love jhunter...even when he's wrong.

You're wrong Jhunter.

I've been around people I don't know and glanced over and thought, oh they look sad.

I've never looked at anyone and thought oh that woman looks sad, because her boss doesn't recognize her contributions in the workplace.

So and so looks sad is completely valid.

So and so looks sad because... everthing after sad, not valid.

No, I'm not.
When someone "looks sad" they don't turn around with a big sign on their forehead that says "looks sad" that displays their exact emotional state to everyone around them.
There is a reason they look sad to you, it is those specific formations of their expressions. One person's sad expression could look just like another's "mildly disappointed" or "annoyed". Each person has their own expressions that display these emotional states to others. There are some similarities but not everyone's is the same to the point that every person you meet's emotions are as readable as a sign on their forehead displaying their emotional state.

When you "emote looks sad" you send a perfect message of your pc's -exact- emotional state, something only those who would know your pc well (or a mindbender) should be able to get with this degree of certainty.
Yes, you may have turned around and looked at someone  thinking: "Oh, they look sad." But there is a middle step of that perception here, subconsciously or consciously, you noticed their facial expressions first and then interpreted it into the thought: "Oh, they look sad." When you use such simplistic and IMO, uncreative emoting you just give them the answer and take away and room for misinterpretation (which makes it unrealistic).

P.S. I love you too B.    Even when you're wrong.

[Belenos]

Please remember, it takes time to develop creative writing skills.  People don't spring from the womb with a quill pen in their hand and the ability to produce prose with the flair of a Hemingway.  For some folks describing their inner sorrow with a phrase like "looks sad" may be the level of writing that they are at currently.  This is fine.  Allow people the opportunity and space to grow their skills at producing creative prose.  

Negative reinforcement, or telling people what they shouldn't be doing often only serves to discourage them.  Instead of lecturing on the GDB or with OOC, show them a better way of presenting themselves by doing it yourself. I know I have learned far more from people that have proven themselves to be great role models, than I have by people who like to correct others.  This is not to say don't discuss, by all means do so, but in the process try not to judge. Lead by example.

[spawnloser]

I don't think anyone has said that people without Hemmingway's talent are bad people...just telling them to try not to write in as simplistic form as, "> em is sad."  Even, "> em looks sad," is better...because you aren't necessarily sad when you look that way.  I've been told many times that I look angry, even when I thought I was smiling...and this is in real life.

Of course, "> pem gaze drops as he turns his head, a single tear running down his cheek and his jaw tightening," is even better.  However, I don't think anyone is expecting that from everyone.

Still, everyone should pay attention to how other people do things, and they should pay attention to what works well and what doesn't.  Try not to emulate the tellers while trying to emulate the showers.  We can all get better together.

[X-D]

I think Lizzie has the right of it. Or least I feel the same way.

To me "em looks sad" feels somewhat like a power emote because your telling me how I have to interpret something...besides, Like Xygax said, its way boring. And I'm far from a flowery emoter and its still way boring.

Though, I'd never correct anybody who uses that style emote.

I will correct them if they do "em sits down feeling sad"...and don't think it does not happen, I've seen that type thing countless times.

[Safirefairy]

Coming from the perspective of someone that has only played for a few days, emoting on Arm can be highly intimidating. It is a very complex emote system compared to most other games.  While this is a good thing in the long run, it does take some time to master.  I can assure you that it will take me a long while.  
My writing skills are well above average, and I've been told I'm a reasonably skilled roleplayer.  It may take some time for either of those things to be obvious on Armageddon.  
Reading these posts makes me feel even more intimidated than before, honestly.  I understand in essence what it is that you all are saying, but it feels like many are being very elitest.
Please give those that don't meet your expectations a chance to learn without judging, as I can promise that will only drive people away.  An encouraging word or suggestion done right is a wonderful thing, but leave the judgement at home.

[Barzalene]

Coming from the perspective of someone that has only played for a few days, emoting on Arm can be highly intimidating. It is a very complex emote system compared to most other games.  While this is a good thing in the long run, it does take some time to master.  I can assure you that it will take me a long while.  
My writing skills are well above average, and I've been told I'm a reasonably skilled roleplayer.  It may take some time for either of those things to be obvious on Armageddon.  
Reading these posts makes me feel even more intimidated than before, honestly.  I understand in essence what it is that you all are saying, but it feels like many are being very elitest.
Please give those that don't meet your expectations a chance to learn without judging, as I can promise that will only drive people away.  An encouraging word or suggestion done right is a wonderful thing, but leave the judgement at home.

Welcome to Arm. The vocal minority aside, most players on Arm, know a newbie when we see one, (not based on talent, based on mechanics) an we know a good newbie when we see one. We appreciate the effort, and truly do welcome new players. Some of us are just too cranky to express that well.

[LauraMars]

Don't be intimidated, Safirefairy!  Welcome to the game!  We like you! Even the grumpy people aren't completely evil.  Deep down, I have this hope of the goodness of humanity.

ALSO, I WOULD LOVE TO HELP YOU IF YOU HAVE ANY QUESTIONS.

Now back to your regularly scheduled thread.

[spawnloser]

[a bunch of stuff about being intimidated]

First, let me say, as others have already, "Welcome!"

Second, it's not as bad as you think.  Here, on the GDB, it's okay to be opinionated and go off about stuff that bothers them...but really, most people are MORE than happy to help with mechanics issues, like how to use all the options that emoting gives us.  Hell, I am checking the emote/emoting helpfiles occasionally myself, and I'm sure others that have been here for a while are too, what with the addition of the + and = targetters that went in recently.

If you have any questions, make good use of the helpers.  That's what they're there for.  I suggest finding ones that use a messenger (AIM, Yahoo!, MSN, ICQ) that you use and adding them so that you can get more help as you need it.

[Angela Christine]

To me "em looks sad" feels somewhat like a power emote because your telling me how I have to interpret something...

Not necessarily.  Their character is projecting something but your character is still free to interpret or misinterpret it however you like.

I read "em looks sad" as the brief form of "em displays a combination of body language and facial expression that many people would consider to be sad looking".  The longer form is icky, and doesn't really give any more information than the short form.  My character is free to think she looks sad, she looks disappointed, she looks nervous, she looks like she has to pee, or she looks like a manipulative bitch who is pretending to be sad to get sympathy.  

A person can look sad without being sad.  I would object to "em is sad" but not to "em looks sad" because looks can be deceiving and are subject to interpretation.

[Vesperas]

Wow, this thread is just going everywhere.  I skipped page 3 and found page 4 talking about something completely different from pages 1 and 2.

To respond to OP:

I'm going to be honest here.  I think this uptight "OMFG-THEY-OOC'D-KILL-THEM!!!!!!" attitude of some of the players (and yes, they do take it to this extreme whether they admit it or not) is bullshit, but you just have to ignore it.  Every game is going to have its elitists; ours just believe that there is no such thing as curtesy between players if it means making fair use of POTENTIALLY abusive/annoying command.

You will know what is acceptable and what is not.  Talking about the Saturday game is not; setting up real-life times for a session/RPT on Saturday is.  

I use this rule of thumb:  If I find another player's actions extrodinarily funny, everyone else probably feels the same way.  If I'm going to be AFK, I make a short note on the GONE command, and then assume they'll know I'm back when my character starts participating in the game again.  If something weird or awkward happens that can not be idealistically explained in-game (bugs, real-life circumstances), a 1-liner is fine.

I hate to add this on for the potential flame it'll get, BUT:  if you play with a group of players consistantly and feel that you all have the same sense of humor, or like to talk about non-game stuff, set up a way to talk over email or a messenger.


To nitpick about emote styles, which would you go with:

The fat, bald woman nervously looks around.

The fat, bald woman appears nervous as she looks around.

There really isn't any difference in the two that I can see, besides that one is simply more preferable for you to use.  To say that someone 'appears sad' can easily be interpreted as someone '[insert mundane action]s sadly'.  You know what sort of attributes are commonly associated with sadness... so there is no need to complain about that type of emote.  The characters in question can STILL be deceiving you.


For all the welcoming:

Um, yes, welcome, whoever!  

[moab]

I don't think the point of the OP was "was this emote bad or good" but was this other dude a dink or not.

The person trying to do the correction was a dink.

I can understand the OP's frustration.  OP - the other play was a dink.

As for the emote - it's grey.

I personally have no problem with something like:

Realizing he is out classed, the gold-farmer scrambles back to his feet, grabs his 14-slot runecloth bag and runs south, nearly tripping over his slippers.