Way Overhaul

[ashyom]

Having read Daedroug's first few posts, and none on second page because I'm tired of bickering, I want to clarify this..

You want to be able to do something like this:
look
A dark black hooded figure stands here.

contact black hooded figure
You suffer from use of the way.
You contact a black hooded figure.

psi How much for the spice?
You suffer from use of the Way.
You send a telepathic message to a dark black hooded figure:
    "How much for the spice?"

As opposed to seeing the true sdesc?

[daedroug]

It's not the fact that you have an opposing opinion, I value opposing opinions. It is the way and tone of your posts.

And what's wrong with wanting the compromise between the two?

[edited to reply to ashyom]

Yes thats basicly what i was saying in that part of the post.

[Cyrian20]

Taking no sides on this one...

There are reasons why when some elf steals from me I tell the Templarate "It was some greasy haired elf" They all are greasy but sdescs are like names and until you see a persons entire description when they walk into a room (please god NO!) we have to use sdescs as a reference. While I am a huge fan of labeling that off peak player that does "contact figure" when they feel a steal attempt, there is nothing wrong with seeing a cloaked figure and feeling for their mind. Yes it gives us an sdesc. Instead of complaining deal with it IC, assume you can't block your number and you want to call people without them knowing. Use other people to make your business deals and do well to hide said number (via barrier). Also we once had contact figure and you contact a dark cloaked figure for way, but then you had no idea and if you lived in the rinth the odds of getting the right person (or even a pc for that matter) were so pathetic it wasn't worth having.

Remember it is ic and there –may- be ic reasons you don't know about why a person can feel out who you are with just the way.

[ashyom]

In response to 2 ideas, and points regarding each - I suggest that if you intend to propose these changes to MUD, to consider these points and figure out a feasible way to address them.

--Changing contact so it used the 'modified' sdesc instead of true sdesc:
1.  There needs to be some considerations, such as, at what point does the modified sdesc become true sdesc?  When the person removes the hood?  Despite your never having seen him (assuming he's not in same room when he does so).  Or does it remain the modified sdesc?  

2.  Is the change fair to everyone?  
Although it does make things a little more realistic, we have to be concerned about playability.  Eg, Should a thief forever be able to fly under the radar, as long as he wore a hood or an item that temporarily changed his sdesc?  Think of the pros and cons when answering this question.

3.  Other benefits?
Eg:  This could make psionics more useful in that they'd be able to determine the real sdesc.  

4.  The real problem here is... Well, let's use a RL scenario that works fairly well as an analogy, to try explain.  You call up a person for first time (aka Way), and your mind creates a mental image of this person (aka modified sdesc) when you two speak.  When you meet this person, your mental image is forever changed and you will always everytime you speak to this person on the phone (Way) picture him differently than the first time (modified sdesc).

Back to game.  Let's suppose you met a hooded fellow, didn't get a good look at him.  You contact him using his modified sdesc, have a pleasant chat about spice, whores, and killing.  Then at a later date, you two meet and he drops his hood, revealing his true sdesc.  How should code handle situations like this?  Does the future way conversations use modified sdesc if he's hooded, or true sdesc since you know him?  

--Personal Mental Sdesc
1. If this is chosen in Halls of King, how do you suggest that staff proof it?  Having mental sdesc of a big red-haired, white-faced clown would be jarring.  Wouldn't it be better to do this in character applications?

2. How would you add this feature in a way that didn't scare the new players off?

3.  How would people recognize each others, if their sdescs are different?  What are the pros/cons to this change?  

4.  How does this affect the guilds across the board? Consider both IC and Code issues.

5.  What does this feature add to the game?  (Improve RP quality, fixes a code issue, etc?)

[spawnloser]

For the Way to use a modified sdesc, you'd be using it any time someone is using a facewrap/hood without having the 'contact' command recognize the difference between contacting someone by true keywords and facewrap/hood keywords and then make a call as to which sdesc to show you.  That seems like a lot of work...

Otherwise you'd end up with people contact 'amos dark bearded' and getting 'the figure in a super sekrit disguise' and thus find out how Amos is disguised currently.

[Gunnerblaster]

Code Select Expand

contact Jimbo
You suffer from use of the Way.
You contact the redheaded hillbilly.

Staff would find this too much of a confusion and a hassle. What if your used to getting 'The freakishly disfigured man' but when you contact that person, for the first time, you get 'the flawless man'.

That'd be kind've confusing, for me, atleast.

[daedroug]

First of all Ashyom I just have to say 'thank you' I was almost in despair of getting any cunstructive feedback. And in reply:

1. There needs to be some considerations, such as, at what point does the modified sdesc become true sdesc? When the person removes the hood? Despite your never having seen him (assuming he's not in same room when he does so). Or does it remain the modified sdesc?

The way that I was actually thinking of it is if you use an item keyword to contact them you get the modified sdesc and if later on you found out their name or saw them with out their hood then you could contact them by those and you would get the true sdesc. so:

Code Select Expand

The cerulean-eyed elf is standing here.

The cerulean-eyed elf raises the hood of a dark, hooded cloak.

>contact dark hooded figure
You suffer from use of the Way.
You contact the short figure in a dark, hooded cloak with the Way.

>cease
You dissolve the psychic link.

>contact cerulean eyed elf
You suffer from use of the Way.
You contact the cerulean-eyed elf with the Way.In both cases you'd be getting the same person but in one your seeing what some one who had never seen them before with out their hood down would see and the other is somthing that some one that has met him before would see. It might get confusing except for the fact that i don't think anyone would use an items keyword instead of a keyword they already know of them.

2. Is the change fair to everyone?
Although it does make things a little more realistic, we have to be concerned about playability. Eg, Should a thief forever be able to fly under the radar, as long as he wore a hood or an item that temporarily changed his sdesc? Think of the pros and cons when answering this question.

It might make it a little bit easier for a thief to get by but wasn't it a little too easy for the other side if they just Way them and be like yeah that was him. You'd still be able to recognize them by their mdesc as well as any more unique equipment they might be wearing (unless they change). Unless you didn't look at them in which case you -deffinatly- shouldn't be able to pick them out. Also the code would still be their to catch anyone that fails to steal, or attacks some one.

3. Other benefits?
Eg: This could make psionics more useful in that they'd be able to determine the real sdesc.

Deffinatly, in fact I could see it as being that psions automaticly have a passive ability that always bypasses a modified sdesc.

4. I'm pretty sure I already answered in the first one

On to the Mental Avatar's

1. If this is chosen in Halls of King, how do you suggest that staff proof it? Having mental sdesc of a big red-haired, white-faced clown would be jarring. Wouldn't it be better to do this in character applications?

Doing it in the hall of kings was simply one of the random ideas of how it might work, but yes I agree it would probably be better done in the chargen.

2. How would you add this feature in a way that didn't scare the new players off?

I don't quite know, I would say just in the chargen when it comes to the point where you have to create a mental avatar, that it would have a short thing explaining what it's meant to represent. Much like how they have the guidlines for writing a description and background right now.

3. How would people recognize each others, if their sdescs are different? What are the pros/cons to this change?

Pros:
-A little bit of anonymity and mystery for those who want it through the Way
-You get to have a feel for the personality of a character by contacting them eg: a really timid human might have a mouse as their avatar.
-just like the other idea it would give Psions that added use of attempting to see past the avatar.
-More interaction between players that had never met in person before and have only spoken through the Way
-It would stop average skilled Way users from fishing for sdescs
Cons:
-As you said it might make things a little confusing in that you couldn't emmediatly recognize a person right from their avatar
-Possibly abusable if some one gets past with a a avatar desc that looks like another person, but thats what the Imms would screen to make sure they are more emotionally descriptive and/or abstract.[/quote]

[ashyom]

I think you have a decent idea here, but I don't know how feasible it is...Right now, your information (and the others' feedbacks) are all over the thread.   What I suggest is that you take your concept, look over everyone's feedbacks (and mentally edit the bickering out, heh), address some of the questions that I posted earlier, and write it all up in an email to the Mud.  I suggest following this general format:  Summary; Idea1 - explain, support, pros, cons; Idea2 - explain, support, pros, cons; and so on.

You'll have better luck suggesting changes and getting coders to consider them via email when you present it in a logical, easy-to-read manner, than on GDB.
Good luck!
Ashyom

[FightClub]

just because you can abuse it, doesn't mean you should.  When you contact that person, my belief is that you see what you perceive of that person, so if they're wearing a cloak, you contact the cloak, then when you talk, you see the cloak?  Perhaps I'm wrong, but just because it says it is Jack the wrangler, I wouldn't necessarily say it was Jack unless he said it was, or I had other clues, because in my mind it is still Mr. Cloaked guy.  But I might be wrong.

[Empress]

It might make it a little bit easier for a thief to get by but wasn't it a little too easy for the other side if they just Way them and be like yeah that was him. You'd still be able to recognize them by their mdesc as well as any more unique equipment they might be wearing (unless they change). Unless you didn't look at them in which case you -deffinatly- shouldn't be able to pick them out. Also the code would still be their to catch anyone that fails to steal, or attacks some one.

I don't think it is that unfair for thieves the way it is now.  If the thief was even half successful, the target wouldn't even know anybody tried to grab their stuff or at most may have felt a pair of hands in their pockets, but by the time they could react the thief probably snuck away hidden.  If the thief was so bad that I caught them red handed and saw them run off, then I don't see a problem with contacting them for their short description.  The target still has to literally see the thief, whether their hood is up or down, running off to be able to contact them in the first place.  If the target is going to just assume the thief was the only other PC they saw standing in the room when they felt the hands in their pockets, that is a fair enough assumption, let them contact that PC to get their sdesc, because there is a very good chance it wasn't that person.  Could be fun having to deal with the IC consequences of assuming something like that if it turns out to be wrong

Maybe i'm wrong in thinking this, but i've always thought that would be considered okay.  You compare it to using aliases to get around code, but the way i've always seen it is, I see the guy running off with my stuff and I see him running away, so I contact him (entering his mind) to find out who he is.  While somebody trained in psionics could probably actually read his thoughts, I've always thought it is okay for the common person to use contact to get basic information like what they look like.  If i'm wrong, please let me know!

I also don't like the idea about when you contact somebody with their hood up, like in Ashyom's example, because if you contact a figure in a dark cloak that's in the room with you, how do you know you contacted the figure that's in the room with you and not somebody someplace else with the same cloak?  Or what if a third party was hidden in the room that was also wearing the same cloak?

I can see where you're coming from on some of your points, but I disagree with others.  I've never seen psionics in this game as just a form of communication.  I'm not sure where you got that idea, and I could be completely off myself, but I figure there are some people with great psionic powers who can do all sorts of things to your mind, and others, being the vast majority of people, who only have a fraction of those powers, but can still find uses for them in many situations.  When you contact somebody, you enter their mind and can both draw and plant information, to what degree depending on your psionic ability.  I don't see the contact skill as just something you have to do before you talk to somebody, I see it as a form of mental assult.  If a person doesn't shield their mind, then they're welcoming the intrusions, kind of like having nosave on.  Again, maybe i'm completely off, but those are my thoughts.  

[Empress]

Oh, and as for the mental avatar thing, I like that idea, but I don't think it has to be so static that you have to predetermine it in character generation or hall of kings or whatever.  I think it would be cool to be able to add a sort of emote to your psis, like this:

> contact Frank
You contact the chubby, brown-haired man

psi (her image faded and weak) Yo dude, bring me some cures!

What Frank sees: The short, black-haired woman sends you a telepathic message, her image faded and weak: Yo dude, bring me some cures!

I actually can't remember what the echos look like at the moment, but hopefully you get what I mean.  You could also get pretty dramatic with it like having a large serpent draped across your form, or having your eyes hollowed out or something, but prevents you from completely changing your mental avatar.

[ThirdEye]

Occasionally I put stuff in like this:

psi *a brief sense of amusement* Yeah, we beat the kank-shit out of him.

I don't feel there is anything wrong with that, sometimes it is needed so you don't get confused......

[Ktavialt]

You know, that change regarding finding a person's mind, I think I
know the main reason for it, what about these became more common...

Handing over a dull green tablet to him, the tall figure wearing a creepy
black mask says to the short figure wearing a creepy black mask, in sirihish:
  "'ey eh... jus' take this down, eat it up... last you a day and nobody can
find yeh with the Way.  Yah ain't able ta find nobody else's either, thou'"

I think I recall this poison/pill/etc. idea blocking the Way in a past
thread, and the Imms liked it, so yea uhh... I like it too.  I wonder if
its been implemented already though and I don't know it.  I wouldn't
say have it too common, not like general poison common, but also not
like methelinoc rare either.

Besides, more contraband for templars to find is A-OK in my book!

*suddenly executed by a templar for having a book*

- Ktavialt

[Agent_137]

If you want to block your own mind, there's a command for that.

Also note that there is something out there that pretty effectively cuts off any way communication. And it's just at the level of rarity you requested. Granted, the disabling of the way is more a secondary effect for this, but it's certainly an effect.

[Ktavialt]

If you want to block your own mind, there's a command for that.

I am -very well- aware that barrier blocks your mind, believe me, I am
not totally ignorant, but it isn't even close to impenetrable, thank you.

Also note that there is something out there that pretty effectively cuts off any way communication. And it's just at the level of rarity you requested. Granted, the disabling of the way is more a secondary effect for this, but it's certainly an effect.

Well, with one exception I know of, which I doubt you mean since its very,
very rare, that's probably something I have not discovered yet, but the
main point was something that was fairly accessible without too many
drawbacks, namely something a raider/sneak type might take before
doing something nasty to avoid detection, and your comments suggest it
may have drawbacks that are not worth the risk at all.

That said, thanks I think.

- Ktavialt

[Agent_137]

I was under the impression that barrier gets better with practice.

[Ktavialt]

I was under the impression that barrier gets better with practice.

Is that just plain ole sarcasm there, or was what I said not pretty much
common knowledge?  I thought it was.

- Ktavialt

[Morfeus]

If you want to block your own mind, there's a command for that.

I am -very well- aware that barrier blocks your mind, believe me, I am
not totally ignorant, but it isn't even close to impenetrable, thank you.

I don't think someone's mind should be totally impenetrable (if we don't count mindbenders and such). I don't see why it should be. Like with every other skill, there usually is some way how to 'fail'. You can hide or sneak, but someone -could- notice you. You can be uber warrior, but someone might be better than you. You can barrier your mind... but someone still could get in. I think that is just fair.

[Eternal]

You can be uber warrior, but someone might be better than you.

There's always a bigger Mek.

Oh, and I love barrier.  It's underused and should be much more necessary, especially for sneaky/hidden magicky/etc. types.

[Tlaloc]

Oh, and I love barrier. It's underused and should be much more necessary, especially for sneaky/hidden magicky/etc. types

Maybe it already is, and you just don't know it? MUAHAHA!

[Eternal]

I don't know whether to be glad, or very, very scared.

I'll choose the latter.  Thanks, T!

[Ktavialt]

Oh, and I love barrier. It's underused and should be much more necessary, especially for sneaky/hidden magicky/etc. types

Maybe it already is, and you just don't know it? MUAHAHA!

I don't know whether to be glad, or very, very scared.

I'll choose the latter. Thanks, T!

Oh Tlaloc is just being overdramatic, you should see what he says to
his kids when they ask him for something...

Child:  Daddy, what's five muwtipwied by twee?
Tlaloc:  That, my child... is something... THAT WILL REMAIN A MYSTERY
UNTIL THE END OF TIME.... MUAHAHAHAHA
Child:  Um daddy... is five muwtipwied by twee equal fifteen?
Tlaloc:  *cough cough* Oh yeah uhm... yes, it is.  What's the next
problem?

[Agent_137]

I was under the impression that barrier gets better with practice.

Is that just plain ole sarcasm there, or was what I said not pretty much
common knowledge?  I thought it was.

- Ktavialt

I'm failing to see the need for a self applicable fool-proof barrier in the form of a tablet.

[Ktavialt]

I'm failing to see the need for a self applicable fool-proof barrier in the form of a tablet.

Golly gee, I suppose you could have said that straight from the beginning
instead of picking your way around it and being a sarcastic jerk.

I'm so very, very sorry that my simple suggestion caused you to decide that
saying the equivalent of "My opinion is different" should be set aside for a
more forum-harmonizing equivalent of "My opinion is different, stupid."

Sorry I got your panties in a wad,
- Ktavialt

[Agent_137]

Har.

You're the one taking undue offense.

Thick skin = internets survival 101