Way Overhaul

[daedroug]

Ok I haven't been too happy with the Way lately and have been conjuring up a few ideas on how to fix it. All four ideas are seperate from each other and if you decide to give feedback please make sure you make sure to distinguish:

1) when some one is in your mind typing contact with no argument attempts to contact the most recent person to enter your mind. This will make it easier to find the right mind with out having to dabble in random sequences of keywords.

2) Clothing keywords no longer apply to attempting to find some ones mind. This is not only so that people can't use the Way to find out who that dark cloaked person that tried to steal from them was but also for realities sake. There is no reason why the things that a person wears would not be anything lingering enough on a persons mind that you would be able to pick it up as your looking for their mind.

3) When you attempt to contact some one and you know their name you can go contact (Jimbo) and it will contact the person with that name, this is mostly for people that have short names or names that could be used as descriptive as well as a name such as Blonde or somthing.

4) Last but not least an Idea that i have been cultivating for quite some time, I would appreciate it if you think about this for a moment before going out on a reflex post. Basicly the idea is that each person at character creation (or some other time IG, maybe the Hall of Kings like how scars work now) You create the normal character description for your character and then create a mental image of your character. In other words how your character sees himself in his mind. (Now I'm not sure how the Staff would want to do this such as completely unrealistic mental images such as The billowing cloud of pulsating white fog, or more realistic and maybe revealing of the characters presonality such as The meek cowering elf) In any case, that way when you contact some one instead of getting there character you instead get the avatar description

Code Select Expand

contact Jimbo
You suffer from use of the Way.
You contact the redheaded hillbilly.

[Morfeus]

1) when some one is in your mind typing contact with no argument attempts to contact the most recent person to enter your mind. This will make it easier to find the right mind with out having to dabble in random sequences of keywords.

I believe this would not be a good change. There are IC situations when someone contacts someone's mind and does not want to be tracked back.

[jstorrie]

You can already contact people by their names.

[daedroug]

I believe this would not be a good change. There are IC situations when someone contacts someone's mind and does not want to be tracked back.

I understand that but just as often there are reasons for people to not want there identity known simply by Waying them, I don't see why one side gets that anonymity when the other side doesn't.

You can already contact people by their names.

I don't mean to sound demeaning but you might want to actually read the entire post before reflexivly posting about a sentence that is explained the sentence right after. :wink:

3) When you attempt to contact some one and you know their name you can go contact (Jimbo) and it will contact the person with that name, this is mostly for people that have short names or names that could be used as descriptive as well as a name such as Blonde or somthing.

[Marauder Moe]

1) when some one is in your mind typing contact with no argument attempts to contact the most recent person to enter your mind. This will make it easier to find the right mind with out having to dabble in random sequences of keywords.

No.  This will screw over mindbenders.

2) Clothing keywords no longer apply to attempting to find some ones mind. This is not only so that people can't use the Way to find out who that dark cloaked person that tried to steal from them was but also for realities sake. There is no reason why the things that a person wears would not be anything lingering enough on a persons mind that you would be able to pick it up as your looking for their mind.

I wouldn't mind seeing it done this way, but the staff allowed it intentionally, not as an oversight.  I'm sure they had a good reason for doing so (though I can't claim I've heard it explained on the GDB :roll:).

3) When you attempt to contact some one and you know their name you can go contact (Jimbo) and it will contact the person with that name, this is mostly for people that have short names or names that could be used as descriptive as well as a name such as Blonde or somthing.

How would "contact (Jimbo)" be any adifferent from "contact Jimbo" as it is now?  Perhaps you're under the impression that two characters can't have the same name?  They can.  Aside from the character name given at creation, description keywords and nicknames are no different to the code.  Such a function would allow you to tell if that name is a True Name, something which has some importance within the game (can't go into any more detail, though.  Find out IC).

4) Last but not least an Idea that i have been cultivating for quite some time, I would appreciate it if you think about this for a moment before going out on a reflex post. Basicly the idea is that each person at character creation (or some other time IG, maybe the Hall of Kings like how scars work now) You create the normal character description for your character and then create a mental image of your character. In other words how your character sees himself in his mind. (Now I'm not sure how the Staff would want to do this such as completely unrealistic mental images such as The billowing cloud of pulsating white fog, or more realistic and maybe revealing of the characters presonality such as The meek cowering elf) In any case, that way when you contact some one instead of getting there character you instead get the avatar description

Code Select Expand

contact Jimbo
You suffer from use of the Way.
You contact the redheaded hillbilly.

I actually think this idea has some merit, but it'll never happen.

[daedroug]

I wouldn't mind seeing it done this way, but the staff allowed it intentionally, not as an oversight.  I'm sure they had a good reason for doing so (though I can't claim I've heard it explained on the GDB :roll:).

My impression was that once you don a piece of clothing that changes your description it adds the extra keywords. Then the Way code doesn't distinguish between the original keywords and the ones from the clothing.

[Marauder Moe]

No, I think it was Halaster who actually said recently that they had to make a special case so clothing-sdesc keywords worked over the Way.  It was in one of the other threads on this topic.

[jstorrie]

If someone's name is also a keyword that applies to another PC (Mister Blonde, or whatever) I believe the Way is already coded to aim for the guy named Blonde before the blonde-haired, not-bald dwarf.

If that isn't what you mean you really need to clarify, though, because I don't get it.

[Halaster]

Ok I haven't been too happy with the Way lately

I have to say that quite a deal of work has gone into it over the past year or so, and most staff are actually quite happy with where it's at now.  I'm sorry you're not happy about it, though (seriously).

1) when some one is in your mind typing contact with no argument attempts to contact the most recent person to enter your mind. This will make it easier to find the right mind with out having to dabble in random sequences of keywords.

It would make it easier, yes, but it would also have the unfortunate side-effect of potentially outing a mind-bender far too easily.  I'd be against this one for that main reason.

2) Clothing keywords no longer apply to attempting to find some ones mind. This is not only so that people can't use the Way to find out who that dark cloaked person that tried to steal from them was but also for realities sake. There is no reason why the things that a person wears would not be anything lingering enough on a persons mind that you would be able to pick it up as your looking for their mind.

This was intentionally added, actually, so that you can contact someone based on their perceived sdesc - which can mean 'contact dark hooded cloak' works.  One of the reasons for this was because people could be standing in a room right next to some dude in a cloak, and be unable to contact them because they didn't know their real sdesc.  It just only makes sense that you can contact someone you're looking at, heh.  That's not the only reason, though.

[Dresan]

Way Listen skill if your in the same room. Thats all that is really needed.

[daedroug]

Ok I haven't been too happy with the Way lately

I have to say that quite a deal of work has gone into it over the past year or so, and most staff are actually quite happy with where it's at now.  I'm sorry you're not happy about it, though (seriously).

It's not so much as being mad at it but that i'm annoyed at how much it can reveal in a very twinkish way, most of the ideas were headed towards trying to reduce that

This was intentionally added, actually, so that you can contact someone based on their perceived sdesc - which can mean 'contact dark hooded cloak' works.  One of the reasons for this was because people could be standing in a room right next to some dude in a cloak, and be unable to contact them because they didn't know their real sdesc.  It just only makes sense that you can contact someone you're looking at, heh.  That's not the only reason, though.

Well I'm not sure what the other reasons but if you can contact some one by their perceived sdesc wouldn't it make sense to only see them as their perceived sdesc?

4) Last but not least an Idea that i have been cultivating for quite some time, I would appreciate it if you think about this for a moment before going out on a reflex post. Basicly the idea is that each person at character creation (or some other time IG, maybe the Hall of Kings like how scars work now) You create the normal character description for your character and then create a mental image of your character. In other words how your character sees himself in his mind. (Now I'm not sure how the Staff would want to do this such as completely unrealistic mental images such as The billowing cloud of pulsating white fog, or more realistic and maybe revealing of the characters presonality such as The meek cowering elf) In any case, that way when you contact some one instead of getting there character you instead get the avatar description

Finally this last idea was my actual reason for posting the others were actual side thoughts that had come to me while mulling over it. I probably should have posted this idea alone but it's really the part i was looking for feadback most

[Cuusardo]

Way Listen skill if your in the same room. Thats all that is really needed.

I don't believe this is needed at all.  The amount of psionic prowess a person would need in order to listen to other people's conversations via the way is too much for the average person.

[Cyrian20]

Way Listen skill if your in the same room. Thats all that is really needed.

I don't believe this is needed at all.  The amount of psionic prowess a person would need in order to listen to other people's conversations via the way is too much for the average person.

Plus it seems to be crossing into another class yes?

Knowing what I am thinking is for dragons, withered old sorces, and of course the foul benders.

[Slink]

It's not so much as being mad at it but that i'm annoyed at how much it can reveal in a very twinkish way, most of the ideas were headed towards trying to reduce that

Why is it that everytime someone doesn't like the way something works it gets the twink label?  It's a cloak people, not some magickal shroud of mystery that covers every single detail of your character.

Why should a person be able to hide just because they refuse to give out keywords?  While two people wearing dark hooded cloaks look the same in a single line of text, do you really think they would look the same in reality?  Is one slouching?  Does this one have stains all over his face?  Can you see a scar on that one's exposed hand?  

Don't you think its more 'twinkish' for some guy to keep his hood up the whole time, not use any keywords at all other than "tall" and "figure", come up with a random name that's also not a keyword and expect to remain completely anonymous while your talking to him face to face?

We're not playing a single player game and in order for there to be actual RP, interaction and conflict some concessions need to be made - this is one of them IMHO.  

If you don't want anyone to contact your mind ever, then a person should work on barrier.  

If you only want a few chosen individuals to contact your mind, then a person should learn to be more selective with your interactions.  

If you don't want noble X to figure out who the person was who just had thier hand down his pants, then a person should be more subtle and/or creative.

I think the way code is balanced correctly right now for all the possibilities it needs to cover.  While there is some room for "twinking" in some peoples opinions, there's no good way to get rid of those scenarios without taking away features that are necessary for other indidivuals.

[Barzalene]

Stuff

I agree.

[daedroug]

I'm sorry but I have to whole heartedly disagree. As it is with your hood up you can see exactly what a character looks like just by looking at their  mdesc. The reason I label it twink is not for the normal times when I have my hood up and contact you and you see my sdesc, it's for those people who 'cantact dark figure' -Specificly- to find out what their sdesc is. If your trying to contact them because you think theres some business you might do...fine, if you contact them because they seemed pretty cool and seems like some one your character will be friends with...fine, but contacting some with a hood up or a mask or anything of the like, specifically to find out their sdesc is, by deffinition, twinkish.

[edited to clarify]

[Slink]

I'm sorry but I have to whole heartedly disagree. As it is with your hood up you can see exactly what a character looks like just by looking at their  mdesc. The reason I label it twink is not for the normal times when I have my hood up and contact you and you see my sdesc, it's for those people who 'cantact dark figure' -Specificly- to find out what their sdesc is. If your trying to contact them because you think theres some business you might do...fine, if you contact them because they seemed pretty cool and seems like some one your character will be friends with...fine, but contacting some with a hood up or a mask or anything of the like, specifically to find out their sdesc is, by deffinition, twinkish.

So wait a minute.  You're actually asserting that it's completely acceptable for me to find your mind and get your sdesc if we're buddies or potential business partners, but if we're enemies or I'm trying to shaft you then I'm a twink?  Are you kidding me?

You're also saying that even though I can look directly at you with your hood up and see every feature included in your mdesc, I should still have to make random guesses at the words you used in your sdesc?

That doesn't even make sense.  If they are close enough to be -sure- they contacted the right person (i.e. they know they have YOUR mind, not some random cloaked figure) then deal with it.  If they are on the other side of the world and they "contact cloaked figure" then what makes you think they will always get the right person?  Hell, even if your in another room and someone uses "dark cloaked figure" as keywords the chances of them finding YOU are, I would imagine, fairly remote.

Do they know your name?  Are you standing right in front of them? Are you silly enough to wear something so unique you stand out in the world?  If they answer to any of those is yes, then sleep in the bed you made for youself.  If the answer is no, then your probably fairly anonymous unless someone else describes you.

Either way, I see absolutely no problem with things the way they are now and I think your labeling of the issue as "twink" is absolutely unfounded based on your last post.

[spawnloser]

No, Slink...it's a question of motivation.  If you're contacting to talk to the person, great.  If you're contacting just to get the sdesc...?  Not so great.

Unfortunately, that's what most questions of 'twinkdom' come down to.  Why, not what.

[Marauder Moe]

I'll admit I've always felt uneasy about the notion of contacting someone for any purpose other than communication.  It just doesn't seem quite right to me, and any IC explanations to justify it usually seem weak.

The only situation I'm fine with is if you're contacting some girl your character really likes and he loses the nerve to talk, as like sometimes happens with telephones (though I've never done it, I suppose I can understand the motivation).

[daedroug]

First of all I don't really agree that the mdesc should be showing when you have your hood up either, but I'll accept that as somthing that is not likely to change and I can deal with it since even if people don't start recognizing me by my mdesc they would do the same thing for my equipment.

Second of all:

So wait a minute. You're actually asserting that it's completely acceptable for me to find your mind and get your sdesc if we're buddies or potential business partners, but if we're enemies or I'm trying to shaft you then I'm a twink? Are you kidding me?

That is not what i said at all. What I'm asserting that contacting some one in the process of initiating communication is fine, thats part of what the Way is for and it's an unfortunate side effect that your sdesc is divulged in the process.
On the other hand of things, some one that sits in a tavern all day and when ever a cloaked, masked, veiled, or otherwise shrouded character enters the room, they contact them to see what their sdesc is before emmediatly ceasing, I would deffinatly consider a twink, or at the very least exhibiting twinkish behavior

[Slink]

On the other hand of things, some one that sits in a tavern all day and when ever a cloaked, masked, veiled, or otherwise shrouded character enters the room, they contact them to see what their sdesc is before emmediatly ceasing, I would deffinatly consider a twink, or at the very least exhibiting twinkish behavior

Is this really that different than a person who sits there and looks at anyone entering the room?  Your not entombed in a black plastic hefty bag, you're wearing a piece of cloth with a hood.  Based on that, I'm still unsure as to why you think people should have to guess at your sdesc if they are standing there looking at you.  More importantly, if you have your hood up for no other reason than to "hide", why *wouldn't* other people be curious as to who you are?

Re: Spawnloser

I see what your saying, but I just don't think it applies here.  The why, quite simply, is because they are curious about who a person is.  That in itself is enough motivation, in my opinion, to try and figure it out with the resources you have available.  I would think the vast, vast majority of the people who wear hoods wear them because of the weather.  Once they are indoors, they lower them.  The ones that don't are potentially trying to hide something and in doing so, make themselves targets for the curious.  Doubly so with masks because they are far fewer of them around.

Don't like it?  Meh.  Shield your mind.

[daedroug]

The Way is quite simply -Not- a means to be looking at people it's a means of communication and using it as such is using the code to get around the unfortunate (for you) side effect of my hood being up. In my opinion it's akin to people aliasing to get around the draw delay. So you can sit there and think "Oh i don't have to wait for the delay i can just go around the coded delay by wielding from my inventory" just like in this case you can think "Oh, I don't know his sdesc and I want to know it, I can just go around the code and use the Way." It's that kind of thinking that characterizes a twink.

[Slink]

The Way is quite simply -Not- a means to be looking at people it's a means of communication and using it as such is using the code to get around the unfortunate (for you) side effect of my hood being up. In my opinion it's akin to people aliasing to get around the draw delay. So you can sit there and think "Oh i don't have to wait for the delay i can just go around the coded delay by wielding from my inventory" just like in this case you can think "Oh, I don't know his sdesc and I want to know it, I can just go around the code and use the Way." It's that kind of thinking that characterizes a twink.

Your comparing apples and oranges in an attempt to demonize one point of view and justify your own.  There is absolutely no relationship between using a macro to remove/wield weapons and contacting someone via the way.  It's completely unrelated to this topic or it's discussion and beyond that, trying to polarize a subject in that fashion is a poor way to make a point.

Unless "I don't like that either" is your argument, you STILL have yet to justify why I need to guess at the obscure words you chose for your sdesc when I can look directly at you and see your mdesc.

You STILL have yet to state why simply using "barrier" isn't good enough.

Your also making assumptions that you have insights on using a *PSIONIC POWER* beyond the scope of any real life human being.  How could anyone possibly know whats actually involved with that?  If its intentionally coded that way, which it obviously is, then I think its a safe assumption that that is -exactly- how staff envisioned it should be in the fantasy world of Zalanthas.  Using it is to gather information on someone you are legitimately curious about (see my previous post) is no more "twink" than  typing "look asshat".

[daedroug]

the two actions both have the same mindset behind them, they both are using the code to skirt around an effect of the code. I'm sorry that you do not see this but in my opinion it is.

As for your second point, I see the mdesc when your wearing a shrowding article as being a description of a character that the player then has to filter out what they would and wouldn't notice, long fingers, yep i'd notice that, fair hair—probably not.

As for barrier, there are those that I want contacting me to notify me of things and it would be an OOC-driven action to turn on barrier to ward off twinks.

And your final point is "it's coded there fore it is". As many have noted before just because it can work that way does not mean that it's the way it was meant to work.

I would ask that you not post here again, your being overly hostile and ridiculing and I can see this is obviously leading to this thread being locked. You have your opinion, I have mine, it's obvious this is going no where and therefore lets just end it now.

And to redirect this thread in a more positive direction.

4) Last but not least an Idea that i have been cultivating for quite some time, I would appreciate it if you think about this for a moment before going out on a reflex post. Basicly the idea is that each person at character creation (or some other time IG, maybe the Hall of Kings like how scars work now) You create the normal character description for your character and then create a mental image of your character. In other words how your character sees himself in his mind. (Now I'm not sure how the Staff would want to do this such as completely unrealistic mental images such as The billowing cloud of pulsating white fog, or more realistic and maybe revealing of the characters presonality such as The meek cowering elf) In any case, that way when you contact some one instead of getting there character you instead get the avatar description

I still like this idea and i think it would offer a new level to Armageddon. And would appreciate some feedback on it.

[Slink]

the two actions both have the same mindset behind them, they both are using the code to skirt around an effect of the code. I'm sorry that you do not see this but in my opinion it is.

One is using a macro to skirt code, the other is using code the way it was intended to be used.

And your final point is "it's coded there fore it is". As many have noted before just because it can work that way does not mean that it's the way it was meant to work.

I would argue that just because you don't think it should work that way, doesn't mean it's not working correctly.

I would ask that you not post here again, your being overly hostile and ridiculing and I can see this is obviously leading to this thread being locked. You have your opinion, I have mine, it's obvious this is going no where and therefore lets just end it now.

Sorry you feel an opposite opinion is a hostile one.  I would ask that you not ask me to refrain from posting my opinion's which are just as valid as your's or anyone else's.

4) Last but not least an Idea that i have been cultivating for quite some time, I would appreciate it if you think about this for a moment before going out on a reflex post. Basicly the idea is that each person at character creation (or some other time IG, maybe the Hall of Kings like how scars work now) You create the normal character description for your character and then create a mental image of your character. In other words how your character sees himself in his mind. (Now I'm not sure how the Staff would want to do this such as completely unrealistic mental images such as The billowing cloud of pulsating white fog, or more realistic and maybe revealing of the characters presonality such as The meek cowering elf) In any case, that way when you contact some one instead of getting there character you instead get the avatar description

I think this idea will take away from RP by adding an unnecessary layer of complexity to PC interaction.  It seems like an easy way out for someone who wants the best of both worlds - interaction as well as the ability to remain anonymous.

[ashyom]

Having read Daedroug's first few posts, and none on second page because I'm tired of bickering, I want to clarify this..

You want to be able to do something like this:
look
A dark black hooded figure stands here.

contact black hooded figure
You suffer from use of the way.
You contact a black hooded figure.

psi How much for the spice?
You suffer from use of the Way.
You send a telepathic message to a dark black hooded figure:
    "How much for the spice?"

As opposed to seeing the true sdesc?

[daedroug]

It's not the fact that you have an opposing opinion, I value opposing opinions. It is the way and tone of your posts.

And what's wrong with wanting the compromise between the two?

[edited to reply to ashyom]

Yes thats basicly what i was saying in that part of the post.

[Cyrian20]

Taking no sides on this one...

There are reasons why when some elf steals from me I tell the Templarate "It was some greasy haired elf" They all are greasy but sdescs are like names and until you see a persons entire description when they walk into a room (please god NO!) we have to use sdescs as a reference. While I am a huge fan of labeling that off peak player that does "contact figure" when they feel a steal attempt, there is nothing wrong with seeing a cloaked figure and feeling for their mind. Yes it gives us an sdesc. Instead of complaining deal with it IC, assume you can't block your number and you want to call people without them knowing. Use other people to make your business deals and do well to hide said number (via barrier). Also we once had contact figure and you contact a dark cloaked figure for way, but then you had no idea and if you lived in the rinth the odds of getting the right person (or even a pc for that matter) were so pathetic it wasn't worth having.

Remember it is ic and there –may- be ic reasons you don't know about why a person can feel out who you are with just the way.

[ashyom]

In response to 2 ideas, and points regarding each - I suggest that if you intend to propose these changes to MUD, to consider these points and figure out a feasible way to address them.

--Changing contact so it used the 'modified' sdesc instead of true sdesc:
1.  There needs to be some considerations, such as, at what point does the modified sdesc become true sdesc?  When the person removes the hood?  Despite your never having seen him (assuming he's not in same room when he does so).  Or does it remain the modified sdesc?  

2.  Is the change fair to everyone?  
Although it does make things a little more realistic, we have to be concerned about playability.  Eg, Should a thief forever be able to fly under the radar, as long as he wore a hood or an item that temporarily changed his sdesc?  Think of the pros and cons when answering this question.

3.  Other benefits?
Eg:  This could make psionics more useful in that they'd be able to determine the real sdesc.  

4.  The real problem here is... Well, let's use a RL scenario that works fairly well as an analogy, to try explain.  You call up a person for first time (aka Way), and your mind creates a mental image of this person (aka modified sdesc) when you two speak.  When you meet this person, your mental image is forever changed and you will always everytime you speak to this person on the phone (Way) picture him differently than the first time (modified sdesc).

Back to game.  Let's suppose you met a hooded fellow, didn't get a good look at him.  You contact him using his modified sdesc, have a pleasant chat about spice, whores, and killing.  Then at a later date, you two meet and he drops his hood, revealing his true sdesc.  How should code handle situations like this?  Does the future way conversations use modified sdesc if he's hooded, or true sdesc since you know him?  

--Personal Mental Sdesc
1. If this is chosen in Halls of King, how do you suggest that staff proof it?  Having mental sdesc of a big red-haired, white-faced clown would be jarring.  Wouldn't it be better to do this in character applications?

2. How would you add this feature in a way that didn't scare the new players off?

3.  How would people recognize each others, if their sdescs are different?  What are the pros/cons to this change?  

4.  How does this affect the guilds across the board? Consider both IC and Code issues.

5.  What does this feature add to the game?  (Improve RP quality, fixes a code issue, etc?)

[spawnloser]

For the Way to use a modified sdesc, you'd be using it any time someone is using a facewrap/hood without having the 'contact' command recognize the difference between contacting someone by true keywords and facewrap/hood keywords and then make a call as to which sdesc to show you.  That seems like a lot of work...

Otherwise you'd end up with people contact 'amos dark bearded' and getting 'the figure in a super sekrit disguise' and thus find out how Amos is disguised currently.

[Gunnerblaster]

Code Select Expand

contact Jimbo
You suffer from use of the Way.
You contact the redheaded hillbilly.

Staff would find this too much of a confusion and a hassle. What if your used to getting 'The freakishly disfigured man' but when you contact that person, for the first time, you get 'the flawless man'.

That'd be kind've confusing, for me, atleast.

[daedroug]

First of all Ashyom I just have to say 'thank you' I was almost in despair of getting any cunstructive feedback. And in reply:

1. There needs to be some considerations, such as, at what point does the modified sdesc become true sdesc? When the person removes the hood? Despite your never having seen him (assuming he's not in same room when he does so). Or does it remain the modified sdesc?

The way that I was actually thinking of it is if you use an item keyword to contact them you get the modified sdesc and if later on you found out their name or saw them with out their hood then you could contact them by those and you would get the true sdesc. so:

Code Select Expand

The cerulean-eyed elf is standing here.

The cerulean-eyed elf raises the hood of a dark, hooded cloak.

>contact dark hooded figure
You suffer from use of the Way.
You contact the short figure in a dark, hooded cloak with the Way.

>cease
You dissolve the psychic link.

>contact cerulean eyed elf
You suffer from use of the Way.
You contact the cerulean-eyed elf with the Way.In both cases you'd be getting the same person but in one your seeing what some one who had never seen them before with out their hood down would see and the other is somthing that some one that has met him before would see. It might get confusing except for the fact that i don't think anyone would use an items keyword instead of a keyword they already know of them.

2. Is the change fair to everyone?
Although it does make things a little more realistic, we have to be concerned about playability. Eg, Should a thief forever be able to fly under the radar, as long as he wore a hood or an item that temporarily changed his sdesc? Think of the pros and cons when answering this question.

It might make it a little bit easier for a thief to get by but wasn't it a little too easy for the other side if they just Way them and be like yeah that was him. You'd still be able to recognize them by their mdesc as well as any more unique equipment they might be wearing (unless they change). Unless you didn't look at them in which case you -deffinatly- shouldn't be able to pick them out. Also the code would still be their to catch anyone that fails to steal, or attacks some one.

3. Other benefits?
Eg: This could make psionics more useful in that they'd be able to determine the real sdesc.

Deffinatly, in fact I could see it as being that psions automaticly have a passive ability that always bypasses a modified sdesc.

4. I'm pretty sure I already answered in the first one

On to the Mental Avatar's

1. If this is chosen in Halls of King, how do you suggest that staff proof it? Having mental sdesc of a big red-haired, white-faced clown would be jarring. Wouldn't it be better to do this in character applications?

Doing it in the hall of kings was simply one of the random ideas of how it might work, but yes I agree it would probably be better done in the chargen.

2. How would you add this feature in a way that didn't scare the new players off?

I don't quite know, I would say just in the chargen when it comes to the point where you have to create a mental avatar, that it would have a short thing explaining what it's meant to represent. Much like how they have the guidlines for writing a description and background right now.

3. How would people recognize each others, if their sdescs are different? What are the pros/cons to this change?

Pros:
-A little bit of anonymity and mystery for those who want it through the Way
-You get to have a feel for the personality of a character by contacting them eg: a really timid human might have a mouse as their avatar.
-just like the other idea it would give Psions that added use of attempting to see past the avatar.
-More interaction between players that had never met in person before and have only spoken through the Way
-It would stop average skilled Way users from fishing for sdescs
Cons:
-As you said it might make things a little confusing in that you couldn't emmediatly recognize a person right from their avatar
-Possibly abusable if some one gets past with a a avatar desc that looks like another person, but thats what the Imms would screen to make sure they are more emotionally descriptive and/or abstract.[/quote]

[ashyom]

I think you have a decent idea here, but I don't know how feasible it is...Right now, your information (and the others' feedbacks) are all over the thread.   What I suggest is that you take your concept, look over everyone's feedbacks (and mentally edit the bickering out, heh), address some of the questions that I posted earlier, and write it all up in an email to the Mud.  I suggest following this general format:  Summary; Idea1 - explain, support, pros, cons; Idea2 - explain, support, pros, cons; and so on.

You'll have better luck suggesting changes and getting coders to consider them via email when you present it in a logical, easy-to-read manner, than on GDB.
Good luck!
Ashyom

[FightClub]

just because you can abuse it, doesn't mean you should.  When you contact that person, my belief is that you see what you perceive of that person, so if they're wearing a cloak, you contact the cloak, then when you talk, you see the cloak?  Perhaps I'm wrong, but just because it says it is Jack the wrangler, I wouldn't necessarily say it was Jack unless he said it was, or I had other clues, because in my mind it is still Mr. Cloaked guy.  But I might be wrong.

[Empress]

It might make it a little bit easier for a thief to get by but wasn't it a little too easy for the other side if they just Way them and be like yeah that was him. You'd still be able to recognize them by their mdesc as well as any more unique equipment they might be wearing (unless they change). Unless you didn't look at them in which case you -deffinatly- shouldn't be able to pick them out. Also the code would still be their to catch anyone that fails to steal, or attacks some one.

I don't think it is that unfair for thieves the way it is now.  If the thief was even half successful, the target wouldn't even know anybody tried to grab their stuff or at most may have felt a pair of hands in their pockets, but by the time they could react the thief probably snuck away hidden.  If the thief was so bad that I caught them red handed and saw them run off, then I don't see a problem with contacting them for their short description.  The target still has to literally see the thief, whether their hood is up or down, running off to be able to contact them in the first place.  If the target is going to just assume the thief was the only other PC they saw standing in the room when they felt the hands in their pockets, that is a fair enough assumption, let them contact that PC to get their sdesc, because there is a very good chance it wasn't that person.  Could be fun having to deal with the IC consequences of assuming something like that if it turns out to be wrong

Maybe i'm wrong in thinking this, but i've always thought that would be considered okay.  You compare it to using aliases to get around code, but the way i've always seen it is, I see the guy running off with my stuff and I see him running away, so I contact him (entering his mind) to find out who he is.  While somebody trained in psionics could probably actually read his thoughts, I've always thought it is okay for the common person to use contact to get basic information like what they look like.  If i'm wrong, please let me know!

I also don't like the idea about when you contact somebody with their hood up, like in Ashyom's example, because if you contact a figure in a dark cloak that's in the room with you, how do you know you contacted the figure that's in the room with you and not somebody someplace else with the same cloak?  Or what if a third party was hidden in the room that was also wearing the same cloak?

I can see where you're coming from on some of your points, but I disagree with others.  I've never seen psionics in this game as just a form of communication.  I'm not sure where you got that idea, and I could be completely off myself, but I figure there are some people with great psionic powers who can do all sorts of things to your mind, and others, being the vast majority of people, who only have a fraction of those powers, but can still find uses for them in many situations.  When you contact somebody, you enter their mind and can both draw and plant information, to what degree depending on your psionic ability.  I don't see the contact skill as just something you have to do before you talk to somebody, I see it as a form of mental assult.  If a person doesn't shield their mind, then they're welcoming the intrusions, kind of like having nosave on.  Again, maybe i'm completely off, but those are my thoughts.  

[Empress]

Oh, and as for the mental avatar thing, I like that idea, but I don't think it has to be so static that you have to predetermine it in character generation or hall of kings or whatever.  I think it would be cool to be able to add a sort of emote to your psis, like this:

> contact Frank
You contact the chubby, brown-haired man

psi (her image faded and weak) Yo dude, bring me some cures!

What Frank sees: The short, black-haired woman sends you a telepathic message, her image faded and weak: Yo dude, bring me some cures!

I actually can't remember what the echos look like at the moment, but hopefully you get what I mean.  You could also get pretty dramatic with it like having a large serpent draped across your form, or having your eyes hollowed out or something, but prevents you from completely changing your mental avatar.

[ThirdEye]

Occasionally I put stuff in like this:

psi *a brief sense of amusement* Yeah, we beat the kank-shit out of him.

I don't feel there is anything wrong with that, sometimes it is needed so you don't get confused......

[Ktavialt]

You know, that change regarding finding a person's mind, I think I
know the main reason for it, what about these became more common...

Handing over a dull green tablet to him, the tall figure wearing a creepy
black mask says to the short figure wearing a creepy black mask, in sirihish:
  "'ey eh... jus' take this down, eat it up... last you a day and nobody can
find yeh with the Way.  Yah ain't able ta find nobody else's either, thou'"

I think I recall this poison/pill/etc. idea blocking the Way in a past
thread, and the Imms liked it, so yea uhh... I like it too.  I wonder if
its been implemented already though and I don't know it.  I wouldn't
say have it too common, not like general poison common, but also not
like methelinoc rare either.

Besides, more contraband for templars to find is A-OK in my book!

*suddenly executed by a templar for having a book*

- Ktavialt

[Agent_137]

If you want to block your own mind, there's a command for that.

Also note that there is something out there that pretty effectively cuts off any way communication. And it's just at the level of rarity you requested. Granted, the disabling of the way is more a secondary effect for this, but it's certainly an effect.

[Ktavialt]

If you want to block your own mind, there's a command for that.

I am -very well- aware that barrier blocks your mind, believe me, I am
not totally ignorant, but it isn't even close to impenetrable, thank you.

Also note that there is something out there that pretty effectively cuts off any way communication. And it's just at the level of rarity you requested. Granted, the disabling of the way is more a secondary effect for this, but it's certainly an effect.

Well, with one exception I know of, which I doubt you mean since its very,
very rare, that's probably something I have not discovered yet, but the
main point was something that was fairly accessible without too many
drawbacks, namely something a raider/sneak type might take before
doing something nasty to avoid detection, and your comments suggest it
may have drawbacks that are not worth the risk at all.

That said, thanks I think.

- Ktavialt

[Agent_137]

I was under the impression that barrier gets better with practice.

[Ktavialt]

I was under the impression that barrier gets better with practice.

Is that just plain ole sarcasm there, or was what I said not pretty much
common knowledge?  I thought it was.

- Ktavialt

[Morfeus]

If you want to block your own mind, there's a command for that.

I am -very well- aware that barrier blocks your mind, believe me, I am
not totally ignorant, but it isn't even close to impenetrable, thank you.

I don't think someone's mind should be totally impenetrable (if we don't count mindbenders and such). I don't see why it should be. Like with every other skill, there usually is some way how to 'fail'. You can hide or sneak, but someone -could- notice you. You can be uber warrior, but someone might be better than you. You can barrier your mind... but someone still could get in. I think that is just fair.

[Eternal]

You can be uber warrior, but someone might be better than you.

There's always a bigger Mek.

Oh, and I love barrier.  It's underused and should be much more necessary, especially for sneaky/hidden magicky/etc. types.

[Tlaloc]

Oh, and I love barrier. It's underused and should be much more necessary, especially for sneaky/hidden magicky/etc. types

Maybe it already is, and you just don't know it? MUAHAHA!

[Eternal]

I don't know whether to be glad, or very, very scared.

I'll choose the latter.  Thanks, T!

[Ktavialt]

Oh, and I love barrier. It's underused and should be much more necessary, especially for sneaky/hidden magicky/etc. types

Maybe it already is, and you just don't know it? MUAHAHA!

I don't know whether to be glad, or very, very scared.

I'll choose the latter. Thanks, T!

Oh Tlaloc is just being overdramatic, you should see what he says to
his kids when they ask him for something...

Child:  Daddy, what's five muwtipwied by twee?
Tlaloc:  That, my child... is something... THAT WILL REMAIN A MYSTERY
UNTIL THE END OF TIME.... MUAHAHAHAHA
Child:  Um daddy... is five muwtipwied by twee equal fifteen?
Tlaloc:  *cough cough* Oh yeah uhm... yes, it is.  What's the next
problem?

[Agent_137]

I was under the impression that barrier gets better with practice.

Is that just plain ole sarcasm there, or was what I said not pretty much
common knowledge?  I thought it was.

- Ktavialt

I'm failing to see the need for a self applicable fool-proof barrier in the form of a tablet.

[Ktavialt]

I'm failing to see the need for a self applicable fool-proof barrier in the form of a tablet.

Golly gee, I suppose you could have said that straight from the beginning
instead of picking your way around it and being a sarcastic jerk.

I'm so very, very sorry that my simple suggestion caused you to decide that
saying the equivalent of "My opinion is different" should be set aside for a
more forum-harmonizing equivalent of "My opinion is different, stupid."

Sorry I got your panties in a wad,
- Ktavialt

[Agent_137]

Har.

You're the one taking undue offense.

Thick skin = internets survival 101

[Ktavialt]

I just made my insult loud and clear without any of that nagging "Let's
pretend I'm making meaningful discussion" camouflage that you had.

Then again, "Ha! Look, you care more than I do" is the general fall-back
position from a person getting his lousy attempt at meaningful discussion
bushwhacked.

I concede defeat,
- Ktavialt

[Agent_137]

But you -do- care more than I do, and you're trying to draw me into an open flame war, which I'm not interested in.


I was making a poignant and wry statement about how a tablet to block your mind is unnecessary, as there's already a command for it. I'm not quite sure why you took it to be insulting. I'm often poignant and wry.

I don't understand why you seem to have an irrational fear that everyone (or at least, I) assumes you're still a noob, "believe me, I am not totally ignorant" and am saddened to see that you act on that fear and lash out.

I hope this is a one time incident, and you don't take offense in the future at people (especially me) making wry comments about your suggestions.

This is the internet; this is a discussion board no less. Wry comments will be made. Starting a flame war each time will do nothing to help the discussion move forward, especially if you start it right as the discussion begins to move again. "Golly gee, I suppose you could have said that straight from the beginning instead of picking your way around it and being a sarcastic jerk. "

I really don't mean to be a sarcastic jerk, for what it's worth. Inconsiderate and dry, certainly. Jerk? That's a bit much.

Sorry I got your panties in a wad,
- Agent_137

[Delirium]

There are a few - some rare and some not - ways to prevent the use of psionics.

This is definitely one of those topics best persued through ingame exploration, should you ever be in a position to do so.