Getting tired of fighting

[Dalmeth]

I can hear the players of desert elves crying right now.

I tend to think desert elves would benefit from this more than most.  Now other PCs are at an even greater disadvantage outside the walls.

Desert elves will always be able to run from a fight.  Humans and the like will either have to mount and flee, giving the elf a few good hits, or flee and then come back for their mount, giving the elf another chance to attack them.  It makes them even more dependent on their mount.

I personally demand that the movement drain of some areas be lessened if this really goes in.  Between d-elves and hunting NPCs that have no effective limit on their stamina, humans and the like would be screwed if they made the slightest mistake outside a city.

[Hot_Dancer]

Stamina conservation is a big part of playing a desert elf in the wilderness. This will not 'benefit' a desert elf just as the stamina drains for using current combat skills does not benefit a desert elf.

Most of the time, the desert elf will have been moving to a location before a fight (-stamina). Then they'll have to fight (-stamina). Then, they still have to be lucky enough to run a short distance to somewhere safe (-stamina) when things go poorly. The elf is even less able condition if they've fired off their bow a few times before any encounter.

Compare to a mounted PC: A mounted PC is able to go to and from their destination without spending stamina..which is a huge benefit. It totally removes half the calculations and odds game of managing your stamina.

If anything should eat stamina it should be magick use, by vast amounts.

Hot Dancer

[Yokunama]

If anything should eat stamina it should be magick use, by vast amounts.

Hot Dancer

Magickers already have a large mana drain, casting spells at useful or max power.

[Cale_Knight]

A magicker completely drained of mana isn't going to find himself unable to walk.

If we're talking about adding stamina drains where there aren't any now, I don't think it's unreasonable to have magick take a toll on the body.

[Dalmeth]

Stamina conservation is a big part of playing a desert elf in the wilderness. This will not 'benefit' a desert elf just as the stamina drains for using current combat skills does not benefit a desert elf.

Most of the time, the desert elf will have been moving to a location before a fight (-stamina). Then they'll have to fight (-stamina). Then, they still have to be lucky enough to run a short distance to somewhere safe (-stamina) when things go poorly. The elf is even less able condition if they've fired off their bow a few times before any encounter.

Compare to a mounted PC: A mounted PC is able to go to and from their destination without spending stamina..which is a huge benefit. It totally removes half the calculations and odds game of managing your stamina.

If anything should eat stamina it should be magick use, by vast amounts.

Yeah, and if the person on a mount loses it?  They are immediately screwed.   They'll probably be able to travel five to ten rooms at best in some areas after a decent fight.  The difference between them and d-elves is so great.

I've seen d-elves at work.  Running distances that would have taken half my character's stamina doesn't even register on assess.  D-elves have an incredibly large pool of stamina for movement.  If you tired yourself out by getting to that awesome hunting spot, that's your problem.  Even people on mounts have to deal with that.  Resting mounts takes longer too.

[Flaming Ocotillo]

I think the idea has merit, but something to KEEP IN MIND is how the stamina drain will affect NPCs.

NPC warriors can already spam kick, bash, and disarm every round (NPCs have no lag for special moves) which makes them considerably more dangerous than any PC warrior. If you add to this the fact that NPCs have insane regeneration rates for hp/stamina/stun compared to PCs, and also can regenerate these things while on the move (they don't need to sit/rest/sleep), making PCs worry about stamina in combat while NPCs don't, could turn out pretty rough for PCs.

If the code was changed for how NPCs regenerate hp/stamina/stun, I think this idea would be great. But right now, I'm concerned that there will be tireless NPCs chasing down exhausted PCs like terminator machines, even moreso than we're already accustomed to.

[spawnloser]

Magick...talking and waving your hands about is as physically intensive (or more so, since Hot_Dancer wants it to take 'vast amounts' of stamina) as real combat?

I think you're not a fan of magickers and just want to see them penalized.

[jcarter]

Magick...talking and waving your hands about is as physically intensive (or more so, since Hot_Dancer wants it to take 'vast amounts' of stamina) as real combat?

I think you're not a fan of magickers and just want to see them penalized.

In all fairness, I can think of at least one mage that will now basically become an even bigger beast than they were before out in the wilderness.

I just hope that there's a lot of careful thought and testing of the system before it goes in, because we're definitely going to be seeing the power scales tip.

[spawnloser]

jcarter, there are TWO mages that I can think of that this would not affect nearly as much as anyone else...and I think they SHOULD be beasts in the wilderness.  One is described as ideally suited to outdoors and the other, well, never really had to worry, so this won't make any difference, if you ask me.

I'd rather NOT see the combat drain stamina code go in, but I don't think that magick should drain stamina.  Realistically, the physical act of fighting should make you tired, but the speaking weird sounds and waving your hands about should not be as physically taxing.

Editted to add: Plus, if a mundane and a magicker are fighting, the magicker will already be losing stamina for being in combat.

[Hot_Dancer]

Desert elf stamina was reduced to the same level as city elf stamina, it's not the incredibly large pool it use to be.

It's not totally in character for every desert elf to dress completely in sandcloth or stamina boosting items, many of these items will not be available for common use to the tribe and they may've learned to make due with other types of dress and customs.

As far mounts vs running: It's pretty difficult to lose your mount, most are pretty adept at typing mount, then flee. I'd like to see a forced loss of 'hitched' status when attacked or heavy penalties associated with being tied to your mount during combat.

If magick is so incredibly powerful in the game, it definitely sounds like it should take more toll on a users body than swinging a sword would.

Hot Dancer

[jcarter]

If magick is so incredibly powerful in the game, it definitely sounds like it should take more toll on a users body than swinging a sword would.

Hence the mana stat.

[Anarchy]

Im certain if/when the staff add the stamina loss to PCs during combat the staff will make certain it is fair to everyone. D-elves included. Im certain the staff dont want to miss out on the desert elf aspect of the game.

[Yokunama]

A magicker completely drained of mana isn't going to find himself unable to walk.

Eh? So?

If we're talking about adding stamina drains where there aren't any now, I don't think it's unreasonable to have magick take a toll on the body.

Wrong
We are not talking about adding stamina drains where they are not now. If so, we should add them to crafting, standing, walking within cities, and etc.

If anything, magickers can not attack continously, until their target reaches 0 mana or dies. And if they mess up, they really can't take it back and say, I'll just get them with the next 20 rounds of magickal combat.

[Yokunama]

If magick is so incredibly powerful in the game, it definitely sounds like it should take more toll on a users body than swinging a sword would.

Hot Dancer

Magick is suppose to be powerful and feared!

[Cale_Knight]

It already is, and magickers already have the ability to kill 50-day warriors before they can even draw a sword.

I really don't see any point to further widening the gap.

[Akaramu]

It already is, and magickers already have the ability to kill 50-day warriors before they can even draw a sword.

I really don't see any point to further widening the gap.

Armageddon is not one of those respawn PvP muds where people constantly cry for nerf and balance. It's not supposed to be balanced. Nobles or templars have the ability to kill 50-day warriors with even more ease than a magicker. With 0 mana or stamina drain.

[spawnloser]

It already is, and magickers already have the ability to kill 50-day warriors before they can even draw a sword.

I really don't see any point to further widening the gap.

So?  As Akaramu said (which I've quoted below to reply to as well), it's not supposed to be.  Otherwise, muls and HG's wouldn't have the huge benefits that they do...and require karma.  For a guild that requires at least 2 karma (for the least powerful) all the way up to 8 karma (for the most), I have NO problem with a 50-day warrior being killed by a magicker...considering the fact that a 1-day magicker has no chance...it'll be at least a 10-day magicker.  a 10-day magicker killing ANYONE has my full support.  They're supposed to be feared IG for a reason.

Armageddon is not one of those respawn PvP muds where people constantly cry for nerf and balance. It's not supposed to be balanced. Nobles or templars have the ability to kill 50-day warriors with even more ease than a magicker. With 0 mana or stamina drain.

Hear hear!

[Cale_Knight]

I'm not arguing for toning down mages. I'm arguing against further widening the gap. If you can't see the difference, I'm afraid I can't be any more clear about it.

[spawnloser]

Thing is, I'm all for widening the gap.  I don't think this will widen it as much as you think, though.

[Akaramu]

I'm not arguing for toning down mages. I'm arguing against further widening the gap. If you can't see the difference, I'm afraid I can't be any more clear about it.

I don't think anyone misunderstod you. I was trying to say that there is no reason to worry about gaps widening due to changes, because there never was class / role balance and never will be. I believe the world is more believable and realistic that way.

Personally, I would only worry if changes turned any class utterly useless, and I doubt the staff would let that happen.

[Hot_Dancer]

Magick is feared and powerful. It also makes playing non magickal classes obsolete after 10 days playing time.

Armageddon isn't one of those respawn pvp muds... Why not just remove the mundane classes and give some crafting skills to the magickers then?

Mundane classes are already utterly useless.

Hot Dancer

[John]

Mundane classes are already utterly useless.

Except for the fact you can actually get employment without needing to branch some of your skills and you won't be forced to listen about how you daring to go where the players are is ruining the game and how you should be forced to constantly solo play.  :roll:

Okay, so perhaps I'm responding to hyperbole with hyperbole

Magickers are always the last resort when it comes to fighting people (in every day activity anyway) and can't craft for shit (apparently).

[Akaramu]

Magick is feared and powerful. It also makes playing non magickal classes obsolete after 10 days playing time.

Armageddon isn't one of those respawn pvp muds... Why not just remove the mundane classes and give some crafting skills to the magickers then?

Mundane classes are already utterly useless.

Hot Dancer

I don't think a lot of players share that view. Maybe you have a specific way of playing and enjoying the game that is not shared by others. In 2 and a half years, half of my PCs have been magickers and they were more 'useless' than my mundanes in various ways. I never got into a PvP situation with them, though, and being powerful in combat or travelling to all kinds of spiffy places are not primary goals of mine when I play.

[The7DeadlyVenomz]

Hot Dancer, stop being a smart ass and stay on topic.

[LoD]

Hot Dancer, stop being a smart ass and stay on topic.

He's not being a smart ass, he's expressing frustration.  It's still not as constructive as some criticism could be, but it's certainly not meaningless considering the derailment on magickers.

I would imagine that Hot Dancer plays a good many roles in areas frequented by magickers, and so he's likely had to deal with the higher end of visible rogue mages in the game.  I deduce from his words that his interactions with these magickers has been frequent and demoralizing.  How many times must an invisible voice begin speaking to you on how you will serve them, or they will wipe out your tribe?

I believe his constructive arguement would be that his PCs already inhabit a land awash with magick and danger, where he's more often the hunted than the hunter because the mages in question happen upon a shared water source (how convenient).  This proposed stamina drain, in his eyes, will only further weaken his PC against what might be the most common/dangerous adversary of his sands, the magicker.

I agree that the classes were never meant to be A = B balanced, but I also think stamina drain on fighting is more of an unforutnate step in micromanaging some of the less responsible players than a feature which will increase role-playing opportunities.  And some of the players of mundane characters, like Hot Dancer, are nervous that this drain will make his most common PC choice (desert elf) even less capable of surviving in the current environment.

The answer isn't necessarily to give magickers a similar stamina drain, even though I don't think channeling elementalist energies to be quite the effortless task some people claim.  For Hot Dancer specifically, I'd prefer to see the game's obvious water sources more heavily guarded by VNPC/NPC entities that don't like encroachers, magicker or otherwise, keeping them further away from nomadic/sedintary tribal civilizations that depend upon them.

I believe just as strongly that any mundane tribal PC keeping to their documented tarritory should have to endure only a rare and fleeting magickal presence at best, since the attention of a tribe or group of tribes would likely be the last thing any magicker should ever want.  Let the mundane tribes regularly interact with other mundane forces, so they can enjoy a competition on the same playing field and you'll see less of these remarks.

That's what I get out of Hot Dancer's remarks.

-LoD