Getting tired of fighting

[Anonymous]

I always thought stamina should slowly decrease while in combat. The amount could be different for different classes or be directly linked to endurace or even be random per round.

I can see warriors losing maybe 1-2 stamina per every second round or so and every other class anywhere from 2-3.

Also people aren't as effective when they are tired, so the more tired the person is the worse they would fight. Of course for warriors and possibly (less so though for) rangers the penalities would be less severe then other classes as you get more and more tired. Also the effect would begin after 50% of stamina is gone and slowly increase after that.

As a balance, being tired should also effect how well you learn skills, this would probably only be linked to your wisdom.

Just to add the stamina costs for kick, disarm, bash -might- have to be lowered a bit for warriors -only-

I really think this would add more stratagy and realism to the game.

[Morfeus]

http://www.zalanthas.org/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=18478&highlight=stamina+warrior+fighting

http://www.zalanthas.org/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=18658&highlight=stamina+warrior+fighting

[Hymwen]

I think it would take too much playability away compared to how much realism it brings. I trust people to use common sense and not fight for hours and hours.

[John]

I think it would take too much playability away compared to how much realism it brings. I trust people to use common sense and not fight for hours and hours.

I would love to cut the battle short, but if that other thing refuses to (especially if it's an NPC) I don't have much choice.

[Dre]

hmm..i don't.

I play combat oriented characters i don't really see how this would take away playability. Most times you have to sit down to heal from a fight anyways. Besides you shouldn't be fighting til your near death or exhaustion either. Yet i constantly see fighters continuing to fight until one of them is moderate condition, and with evenly matched fighters this can take a while.
 

But having looked at the threads i think all that needed to be said has been said.

[Barzalene]

While I like the idea, I hope it never goes in. It's very hard to play an outdoorsy type, especially with a new pc. This would almost ensure there would never be any old pc outdoorsy types.

[Morgenes]

Just a note that this is planned to go in, we're working on foundation projects to get ready for it.

Sorry for those of you who don't want it.  Again I'll say, there is always posts about how this change or that change will 'ruin the game'.  And yet, the game is still there, and people are still playing.  The people who think the game is ruined will find another game to play that isn't ruined.

[Larrath]

I'd like to see the Offense and Defence skills also come into this.  Since these are Zalanthans, the good fighters also know how to conserve their energy, I can really see a high Offense skill giving a reduction to the Stamina loss when attacking and a high Defense doing the same when dodging or blocking.

It could open interesting ideas, specifically with tiring out a raptor for a noble to hunt and other such things.

[Moofassa]

Morgenes, will this code change apply to beasties aswell? For instance, if I chase a duskhorn until he/she can no longer escape, does this mean he can no longer fight with any effectiveness aswell?

[Malken]

I don't really like it..

It's not so bad if you're riding around on a mount, but how will it affect the races that tend to avoid mounts and are of the hunter type? ie - Desert elves.They have to spend stamina just to move around..

[Yokunama]

I think it would take too much playability away compared to how much realism it brings.

I agree.

[Larrath]

Just a note that this is planned to go in, we're working on foundation projects to get ready for it.

Sorry for those of you who don't want it.  Again I'll say, there is always posts about how this change or that change will 'ruin the game'.  And yet, the game is still there, and people are still playing.

[jcarter]

I can hear the players of desert elves crying right now.

[Anonymous]

For all you guys know it could very easily be an advantage to them. How?

You have no idea how the code will be implemented or how it will effect classes and races. It could very well be less severe on Delves then on other races. Though the ability to rest while still hidden might be nice, if not yet possible.

This is a game that went from spawning to permadeath....have faith.

[Yokunama]

Just a note that this is planned to go in, we're working on foundation projects to get ready for it.

Sorry for those of you who don't want it.  Again I'll say, there is always posts about how this change or that change will 'ruin the game'.  And yet, the game is still there, and people are still playing.

I've read it, and surely several others have also.
Whats the point in having a discussion on it if everyone isn't going to at least express their opinion and give their ideas, Larrath? I just think its going to take away some if not a lot of playability.

Just because the an Imm says this 'will' happen doesn't me we, the players as a whole, can nod do anything about it, because without us, there wouldn't be much of a game. Maybe expressing a very valid and clear point will change a few things.

Maybe its a good idea - Maybe it isn't.

[Jherlen]

I can hear the players of desert elves crying right now.

And it sounds marvelous.

[Bullet Eater]

I like the idea of tiring out during a battle. It leaves roleplaying possibilities (imagine two equally skilled fighters fighting each other to the point of exhaustion, coming to terms with each other's skill then becoming powerful allies), as well as preventing both ganks and drawn-out battles amongst fighters.

[Yokunama]

I like the idea of tiring out during a battle. It leaves roleplaying possibilities (imagine two equally skilled fighters fighting each other to the point of exhaustion, coming to terms with each other's skill then becoming powerful allies), as well as preventing both ganks and drawn-out battles amongst fighters.

That doesn't feel too zalanthas. Thats just my opinion.

[The7DeadlyVenomz]

I still support this idea.

I still hope for it to go in.

And it seems like there will be some version of it tucked in, via Morgenes.

So I'm gravy.

[Anael]

Sorry if someone pointed this out already, got enough time to just skim through the thread.

It'd be nice to have encumberance have a slight affect on how fast do fighters tire. (ie, each 'tick' when the fighter loses stamina would be 1 second shorter for each level on encumberance... or something)

[Cale_Knight]

Hopefully these foundation projects include things like stances that affect both combat abilities and the amount of stamina you lose.

A warrior with a shield, for instance, who's fighting carefully and defensively might not tire out as quickly as a berserker with a two-handed axe.

[Yokunama]

This could easily be abused in some ways
People will be grouping together to quickly lower the stamina of the intended target, as if certain groups of NPCs don't do enough of this to wipe out your HP. Many players will be seeing their character's stamina drop from 100 to 50 or 100 to 10 within seconds.

"Assess -v" will play another part in the role a lot of twinkish deaths. Which allows the players to tell the status of someones stamina. More player will be attacked and more likely killed because they are "The man/woman looks completely exhausted". Yea, playing on the weak can be good roleplay, but entering a room, assessing someone, drawing your blades, and killing them isn't roleplay.

This leaves little room for those emotes and little special manevours kick, bash, backstab, and disarm. I'd like to have time to make combat creative and colorful - Not lifeless and dull. (I do not count the first few minutes of combat as actual fighting, just a few practice swings used to find the enemy out, unless the damage from the first series of blows was serious.)

Even if PCs stamina affects their combats skills, we will still see those long-threaded battles between evenly matched foes, because both of their skills would have suffered the same amount. Thus, they will still remain as equals on the battle field.

If combat is suppose to be short, equip my characters with high backstab skill and throw in the wilderness and city sneak.




Just my little rambling rant.

[Dre]

This could easily be abused in some ways
People will be grouping together to quickly lower the stamina of the intended target, as if certain groups of NPCs don't do enough of this to wipe out your HP. Many players will be seeing their character's stamina drop from 100 to 50 or 100 to 10 within seconds.

Your assuming the code will works that way. Truthfully in situations where your outnumbered most people run regardless. I doubt it will be coded so that 2 RL seconds of battle will leave you tired.

"Assess -v" will play another part in the role a lot of twinkish deaths. Which allows the players to tell the status of someones stamina. More player will be attacked and more likely killed because they are "The man/woman looks completely exhausted". Yea, playing on the weak can be good roleplay, but entering a room, assessing someone, drawing your blades, and killing them isn't roleplay.

Entering a room, and just looking at someone(gear) before killing them has never been good Roleplay. Seeing someone exhausted and knowing they are too tired to fight (as well as they would if they were completely rested) is a fact of life. Its really no different then knowing that they won't be able to run very far away from you if you attack.

This leaves little room for those emotes and little special manevours kick, bash, backstab, and disarm. I'd like to have time to make combat creative and colorful - Not lifeless and dull. (I do not count the first few minutes of combat as actual fighting, just a few practice swings used to find the enemy out, unless the damage from the first series of blows was serious.)

I've always found real ingame fights to go very fast anyways, usually one sided. Rarely (think once or twice) have i seen PC vs PC, where PC life was on the line, be able to pull off well written emote, which is actually good because it usually means they are having an adrenaline rush. I usually have marcoed emote for such occations. However, All in All a bit of balancing code wise will nullify this concern in my humble opinion.

Anyways i'm with The7DeadlyVenomz on this and am glad some version of this is being implemented by the IMMs. Just no one has any idea how it will exactly work so there is no point in assuming it will be a horrible thing (or in my case a good thing)  :wink:

[Malken]

Morgenes, will this code change apply to beasties aswell? For instance, if I chase a duskhorn until he/she can no longer escape, does this mean he can no longer fight with any effectiveness aswell?

It should, out of fairness. There are some critters that if you aren't skilled enough, you can fight for hours, without hitting them, same goes for that critter. Why should you be the one dropping out of exhaustion first and not the critters?

In that case, if critters do lose stamina as well and can't fight after a certain time, a popular way of hunting some of them is to chase them until they get exhausted, won't that make it extremely easy afterward to hunt them if they can't fight back?

[Barzalene]

I think the question that asks whether npcs will likewise be affected is a very good one.

[Dalmeth]

I can hear the players of desert elves crying right now.

I tend to think desert elves would benefit from this more than most.  Now other PCs are at an even greater disadvantage outside the walls.

Desert elves will always be able to run from a fight.  Humans and the like will either have to mount and flee, giving the elf a few good hits, or flee and then come back for their mount, giving the elf another chance to attack them.  It makes them even more dependent on their mount.

I personally demand that the movement drain of some areas be lessened if this really goes in.  Between d-elves and hunting NPCs that have no effective limit on their stamina, humans and the like would be screwed if they made the slightest mistake outside a city.

[Hot_Dancer]

Stamina conservation is a big part of playing a desert elf in the wilderness. This will not 'benefit' a desert elf just as the stamina drains for using current combat skills does not benefit a desert elf.

Most of the time, the desert elf will have been moving to a location before a fight (-stamina). Then they'll have to fight (-stamina). Then, they still have to be lucky enough to run a short distance to somewhere safe (-stamina) when things go poorly. The elf is even less able condition if they've fired off their bow a few times before any encounter.

Compare to a mounted PC: A mounted PC is able to go to and from their destination without spending stamina..which is a huge benefit. It totally removes half the calculations and odds game of managing your stamina.

If anything should eat stamina it should be magick use, by vast amounts.

Hot Dancer

[Yokunama]

If anything should eat stamina it should be magick use, by vast amounts.

Hot Dancer

Magickers already have a large mana drain, casting spells at useful or max power.

[Cale_Knight]

A magicker completely drained of mana isn't going to find himself unable to walk.

If we're talking about adding stamina drains where there aren't any now, I don't think it's unreasonable to have magick take a toll on the body.

[Dalmeth]

Stamina conservation is a big part of playing a desert elf in the wilderness. This will not 'benefit' a desert elf just as the stamina drains for using current combat skills does not benefit a desert elf.

Most of the time, the desert elf will have been moving to a location before a fight (-stamina). Then they'll have to fight (-stamina). Then, they still have to be lucky enough to run a short distance to somewhere safe (-stamina) when things go poorly. The elf is even less able condition if they've fired off their bow a few times before any encounter.

Compare to a mounted PC: A mounted PC is able to go to and from their destination without spending stamina..which is a huge benefit. It totally removes half the calculations and odds game of managing your stamina.

If anything should eat stamina it should be magick use, by vast amounts.

Yeah, and if the person on a mount loses it?  They are immediately screwed.   They'll probably be able to travel five to ten rooms at best in some areas after a decent fight.  The difference between them and d-elves is so great.

I've seen d-elves at work.  Running distances that would have taken half my character's stamina doesn't even register on assess.  D-elves have an incredibly large pool of stamina for movement.  If you tired yourself out by getting to that awesome hunting spot, that's your problem.  Even people on mounts have to deal with that.  Resting mounts takes longer too.

[Flaming Ocotillo]

I think the idea has merit, but something to KEEP IN MIND is how the stamina drain will affect NPCs.

NPC warriors can already spam kick, bash, and disarm every round (NPCs have no lag for special moves) which makes them considerably more dangerous than any PC warrior. If you add to this the fact that NPCs have insane regeneration rates for hp/stamina/stun compared to PCs, and also can regenerate these things while on the move (they don't need to sit/rest/sleep), making PCs worry about stamina in combat while NPCs don't, could turn out pretty rough for PCs.

If the code was changed for how NPCs regenerate hp/stamina/stun, I think this idea would be great. But right now, I'm concerned that there will be tireless NPCs chasing down exhausted PCs like terminator machines, even moreso than we're already accustomed to.

[spawnloser]

Magick...talking and waving your hands about is as physically intensive (or more so, since Hot_Dancer wants it to take 'vast amounts' of stamina) as real combat?

I think you're not a fan of magickers and just want to see them penalized.

[jcarter]

Magick...talking and waving your hands about is as physically intensive (or more so, since Hot_Dancer wants it to take 'vast amounts' of stamina) as real combat?

I think you're not a fan of magickers and just want to see them penalized.

In all fairness, I can think of at least one mage that will now basically become an even bigger beast than they were before out in the wilderness.

I just hope that there's a lot of careful thought and testing of the system before it goes in, because we're definitely going to be seeing the power scales tip.

[spawnloser]

jcarter, there are TWO mages that I can think of that this would not affect nearly as much as anyone else...and I think they SHOULD be beasts in the wilderness.  One is described as ideally suited to outdoors and the other, well, never really had to worry, so this won't make any difference, if you ask me.

I'd rather NOT see the combat drain stamina code go in, but I don't think that magick should drain stamina.  Realistically, the physical act of fighting should make you tired, but the speaking weird sounds and waving your hands about should not be as physically taxing.

Editted to add: Plus, if a mundane and a magicker are fighting, the magicker will already be losing stamina for being in combat.

[Hot_Dancer]

Desert elf stamina was reduced to the same level as city elf stamina, it's not the incredibly large pool it use to be.

It's not totally in character for every desert elf to dress completely in sandcloth or stamina boosting items, many of these items will not be available for common use to the tribe and they may've learned to make due with other types of dress and customs.

As far mounts vs running: It's pretty difficult to lose your mount, most are pretty adept at typing mount, then flee. I'd like to see a forced loss of 'hitched' status when attacked or heavy penalties associated with being tied to your mount during combat.

If magick is so incredibly powerful in the game, it definitely sounds like it should take more toll on a users body than swinging a sword would.

Hot Dancer

[jcarter]

If magick is so incredibly powerful in the game, it definitely sounds like it should take more toll on a users body than swinging a sword would.

Hence the mana stat.

[Anarchy]

Im certain if/when the staff add the stamina loss to PCs during combat the staff will make certain it is fair to everyone. D-elves included. Im certain the staff dont want to miss out on the desert elf aspect of the game.

[Yokunama]

A magicker completely drained of mana isn't going to find himself unable to walk.

Eh? So?

If we're talking about adding stamina drains where there aren't any now, I don't think it's unreasonable to have magick take a toll on the body.

Wrong
We are not talking about adding stamina drains where they are not now. If so, we should add them to crafting, standing, walking within cities, and etc.

If anything, magickers can not attack continously, until their target reaches 0 mana or dies. And if they mess up, they really can't take it back and say, I'll just get them with the next 20 rounds of magickal combat.

[Yokunama]

If magick is so incredibly powerful in the game, it definitely sounds like it should take more toll on a users body than swinging a sword would.

Hot Dancer

Magick is suppose to be powerful and feared!

[Cale_Knight]

It already is, and magickers already have the ability to kill 50-day warriors before they can even draw a sword.

I really don't see any point to further widening the gap.

[Akaramu]

It already is, and magickers already have the ability to kill 50-day warriors before they can even draw a sword.

I really don't see any point to further widening the gap.

Armageddon is not one of those respawn PvP muds where people constantly cry for nerf and balance. It's not supposed to be balanced. Nobles or templars have the ability to kill 50-day warriors with even more ease than a magicker. With 0 mana or stamina drain.

[spawnloser]

It already is, and magickers already have the ability to kill 50-day warriors before they can even draw a sword.

I really don't see any point to further widening the gap.

So?  As Akaramu said (which I've quoted below to reply to as well), it's not supposed to be.  Otherwise, muls and HG's wouldn't have the huge benefits that they do...and require karma.  For a guild that requires at least 2 karma (for the least powerful) all the way up to 8 karma (for the most), I have NO problem with a 50-day warrior being killed by a magicker...considering the fact that a 1-day magicker has no chance...it'll be at least a 10-day magicker.  a 10-day magicker killing ANYONE has my full support.  They're supposed to be feared IG for a reason.

Armageddon is not one of those respawn PvP muds where people constantly cry for nerf and balance. It's not supposed to be balanced. Nobles or templars have the ability to kill 50-day warriors with even more ease than a magicker. With 0 mana or stamina drain.

Hear hear!

[Cale_Knight]

I'm not arguing for toning down mages. I'm arguing against further widening the gap. If you can't see the difference, I'm afraid I can't be any more clear about it.

[spawnloser]

Thing is, I'm all for widening the gap.  I don't think this will widen it as much as you think, though.

[Akaramu]

I'm not arguing for toning down mages. I'm arguing against further widening the gap. If you can't see the difference, I'm afraid I can't be any more clear about it.

I don't think anyone misunderstod you. I was trying to say that there is no reason to worry about gaps widening due to changes, because there never was class / role balance and never will be. I believe the world is more believable and realistic that way.

Personally, I would only worry if changes turned any class utterly useless, and I doubt the staff would let that happen.

[Hot_Dancer]

Magick is feared and powerful. It also makes playing non magickal classes obsolete after 10 days playing time.

Armageddon isn't one of those respawn pvp muds... Why not just remove the mundane classes and give some crafting skills to the magickers then?

Mundane classes are already utterly useless.

Hot Dancer

[John]

Mundane classes are already utterly useless.

Except for the fact you can actually get employment without needing to branch some of your skills and you won't be forced to listen about how you daring to go where the players are is ruining the game and how you should be forced to constantly solo play.  :roll:

Okay, so perhaps I'm responding to hyperbole with hyperbole

Magickers are always the last resort when it comes to fighting people (in every day activity anyway) and can't craft for shit (apparently).

[Akaramu]

Magick is feared and powerful. It also makes playing non magickal classes obsolete after 10 days playing time.

Armageddon isn't one of those respawn pvp muds... Why not just remove the mundane classes and give some crafting skills to the magickers then?

Mundane classes are already utterly useless.

Hot Dancer

I don't think a lot of players share that view. Maybe you have a specific way of playing and enjoying the game that is not shared by others. In 2 and a half years, half of my PCs have been magickers and they were more 'useless' than my mundanes in various ways. I never got into a PvP situation with them, though, and being powerful in combat or travelling to all kinds of spiffy places are not primary goals of mine when I play.

[The7DeadlyVenomz]

Hot Dancer, stop being a smart ass and stay on topic.

[LoD]

Hot Dancer, stop being a smart ass and stay on topic.

He's not being a smart ass, he's expressing frustration.  It's still not as constructive as some criticism could be, but it's certainly not meaningless considering the derailment on magickers.

I would imagine that Hot Dancer plays a good many roles in areas frequented by magickers, and so he's likely had to deal with the higher end of visible rogue mages in the game.  I deduce from his words that his interactions with these magickers has been frequent and demoralizing.  How many times must an invisible voice begin speaking to you on how you will serve them, or they will wipe out your tribe?

I believe his constructive arguement would be that his PCs already inhabit a land awash with magick and danger, where he's more often the hunted than the hunter because the mages in question happen upon a shared water source (how convenient).  This proposed stamina drain, in his eyes, will only further weaken his PC against what might be the most common/dangerous adversary of his sands, the magicker.

I agree that the classes were never meant to be A = B balanced, but I also think stamina drain on fighting is more of an unforutnate step in micromanaging some of the less responsible players than a feature which will increase role-playing opportunities.  And some of the players of mundane characters, like Hot Dancer, are nervous that this drain will make his most common PC choice (desert elf) even less capable of surviving in the current environment.

The answer isn't necessarily to give magickers a similar stamina drain, even though I don't think channeling elementalist energies to be quite the effortless task some people claim.  For Hot Dancer specifically, I'd prefer to see the game's obvious water sources more heavily guarded by VNPC/NPC entities that don't like encroachers, magicker or otherwise, keeping them further away from nomadic/sedintary tribal civilizations that depend upon them.

I believe just as strongly that any mundane tribal PC keeping to their documented tarritory should have to endure only a rare and fleeting magickal presence at best, since the attention of a tribe or group of tribes would likely be the last thing any magicker should ever want.  Let the mundane tribes regularly interact with other mundane forces, so they can enjoy a competition on the same playing field and you'll see less of these remarks.

That's what I get out of Hot Dancer's remarks.

-LoD

[The7DeadlyVenomz]

Huh. I'd agree.

[Jakahri]

I agree that the classes were never meant to be A = B balanced, but I also think stamina drain on fighting is more of an unforutnate step in micromanaging some of the less responsible players than a feature which will bring a greatly advanced degree of RP opportunity.  And some of the players of mundane characters, like Hot Dancer, are nervous that this drain will make his most common PC choice (desert elf) even less capable of surviving in the current environment.

Absolutely. This is one of my biggest fears as well. I certainly hope the staff is taking steps to protect the desert elf class. For a few years now the race has been systematically neutered (except for the bonus to not losing as much water in the wastes as other races, which is the one saving grace that I love) and, as a result, their effectiveness at hunting or protecting their home will become nigh impossible. Desert elves already are at a major disadvantage due to massive loss of the mvs pool while in combat if skills are used.

Perhaps the code will be based off of endurance. The more hardy you are, the slower you tire. (Hence, desert elves lose half or a third as much as other races) Perhaps that has already been taken into account. *shrug*

[Synthesis]

How did the last 3 pages of this topic get turned back to magickers?

It's about stamina drain.  I think it's safe to assume that the Imms aren't going to tack stamina drain on top of mana drain for magickers, so it's a complete waste of time to talk about it in this topic.  There are other magicker-related posts out there, go post your gripes and complaints about magickers there.

As far as stamina drain during combat goes:  1) Yes, it makes sense; 2) Yes, it will suck; 3) No, it won't be an insurmountable burden.

As far as how it will affect d-elves: it can go either way.  A d-elf who plans well and stays rested will have the advantage in straight -combat-, since he will be able to fight longer, given his marginally larger stamina pool.  -However-, mount-riders will always have the -flee- advantage, since 1) Almost every mount has more useful stamina than a d-elf; 2) The mount, not being in combat, will not be draining its stamina; and 3) Even if the mount -is- attacked, it will still (probably) have a much larger stamina pool than its attacker, and will outlast them in the ensuing melee.

One problem I can foresee with the stamina drain concept is how defense and offense work together, code-wise.  It really doesn't take long for a warrior (especially a warrior using a shield) to be virtually untouchable by another warrior, one-on-one.  Sometimes combat between warriors can go back and forth without injury to either side for a very long time, especially if both warriors are capable of reversing special command attacks.  A human warrior's defense can get -so- good that they can effectively fend off a half-giant's ordinary attacks.  Now, add in the fact that it takes -numerous- effective blows to bring down your opponent and the fact that these damaging blows will be few and far between, and you have a recipe  for stalemates across the board, when fleeing isn't an option.  Of course, this makes just as much sense, really.  If you look at professsional mixed martial-arts fights, -many- of them would reach a complete stalemate if the referee wasn't there to stand the fighters back up.  Even professional fighters, who do nothing but train and train and train for these fights, get completely gassed within 10 minutes of fighting (if they're really putting their all into it).  This complete exhaustion can reach the point where you're unable to defend yourself, but equally unable to attack, either.  All you can do is lie there with your arms around your head (or lie on top of your opponent), suck air, and maybe throw a few lethargic and completely ineffectual punches.

Which is fine, because from my personal experience, attacks out in the wilds never last for more than a minute or two before either 1) Someone dies or 2) Someone flees.  Rare is the case where two people are so evenly matched that it isn't immediately obvious what the outcome of the fight is going to be.

My only suggestion is that once both parties reach complete stamina drain, they are both automatically disengaged from the fight, and are unable to initiate combat again until they rest.  (Which brings in another problem, since rangers regenerate stamina at 12 per tick, while all other classes regenerate at 8 per tick.  This 50% faster regeneration rate could have -huge- consequences, in certain cases, such as when a ranger is in an organization which spars frequently--since the ranger will be regenerating stamina much faster, they'll also be able to spar more frequently, which means they'll improve more rapidly.)

Ultimately, though, I think this addition to the code will do relatively little beyond the sparring ring.  Like I said above, most life-and-death situations are resolved -very- quickly.  It will only negatively affect d-elves that are foolish enough to stick around for a fair fight, and newbies who are foolish enough to not have their stamina as part of their prompt (perhaps the default prompt could be changed to include hp/stamina/stun, to avoid this problem).

[Saphreal]

I have always thought that you shouldn't stop training because you finally took enough damage, or because you had been training for an obscene amount of time.  When you have two High skill soldiers training together, and neither can land a blow on the other one, it can be a hard line to draw where you say, "OK, we're too tired to go on."  I would love to see something like this added to the game.

[Anarchy]

Perhaps, to protect the desert elves, city elves could be given the ability to run like d-elves (and they should have that ability - they ARE elves after all) I love elves, all the karma I have was gained by playing elves. What frustrated me the most was the "elves cant ride" issue, and yet city elves were unable to cross distances like the documents claim. I dont care if they are city elves, they are still elves. As i have said over and over again. Give d-elves a bigger bonus to movement. Problem solved, stamina loss in combat can be implemented with little adverse effects on elves in general.