The Elementalist Quarters - Present and Future

[The7DeadlyVenomz]

Fuck yes, X.

DO it. Do it! Let me help! DO it!

[Intrepid]

Intrepid:  I think even the most isolated of ISO clans enrich the game world by existing, even if many players do not witness them.  It is a mistake to assume that the ripples of even halfling activities don't affect players everywhere.  It's not a bad thing that those clans have rigorously defined cultures and are largely self-sufficient.

It's not the definition of cultures I have issue with; in fact, I encourage definition.  But definition often is found more in limitations, and a couple of the old iso clans quite literally seemed to have no need for anyone.  When you have no need for the people around you, you have no incentive to interact.  This incentive becomes exponential when you think/know that everyone nearby is out to get you.  To take the halfling example, the ripples you refer to may never be witnessed outside of a very few people--assuming they aren't killed and eaten--and will not support the sense of cross-culture and intrigue; they're not really giving back to the game in any way that can be identified by a player.

The other half of the vision for magickers would of course also require them to seek out mundane PCs for various services, as well.

This is another point where I believe the model breaks down.  Elementalists are first perceived as belonging solely in their quarter and are kicked out of taverns.  Shops are next, with pc merchants claiming it is borderline twinkish to even talk to these outcasts.  Already, at least one player has suggested that mundane shops be added to the Elementalist's Quarter, guaranteeing that this place becomes its own mini city.  The final step to make this complete is for elementalists to begin making crafter subclasses more often because the players become frustrated at being shut down by pc (and possibly even npc, depending on how far this goes) merchants just because of the perception that they only belong in the Elementalist's Quarter.

What ends up happening, in the end, is that rogue magickers will continue to flourish no matter how much karma they end up requiring and we eventually have an iso clan right in the middle of Allanak.

Given the recent past history of the playerbase and the general trend that everything is moving toward, I don't see how this inevitable conclusion can be prevented--or that most of the vocal playerbase on the gdb would want anything else.

[Xygax]

I like to think that we as the staff have done a pretty good job of stemming the sort of cultural "slide" you're referring to, so I don't find the slippery-slope argument compelling or convincing.  If you disagree with me and can offer specific examples, please send them to me via e-mail.  The examples I've seen cited on this and the other thread thusfar have been anecdotal examples of a particular player or room-full of players acting either on their own, or in a small mob.  Those aren't great examples to me, because a particular solo player may well have a special loathing for magickers (or may be played badly), and it is very easy (and ICly believable) to be drawn into a mob like that.

Even if you're right, I'd rather slide more toward elementalists being isolated than accepted and integrated.  It remains one of the best factors in limiting what would otherwise be an overwhelmingly powerful set of classes that experienced no cultural or coded drawbacks, and enjoys an arguably large overall PC population.  Conflict is good, segregation is conflict (as long as you can make the segregated people on both sides need interaction with the other side).

-- X

[bloodfromstone]

I honestly think you're blowing the idea out of porportion. Personally, I hate Iso clans. With a burning, heated passion, I do hate them. But I don't think making the Elementist Quarter more self-suffiecent while expanding on the roles of gemmers in game is anything like an Iso clan. What it is is encouraging the idea of magickers being special and different. Rather than hanging out at them at the bar, their interactions will be business and intrigue. Instead of playing Tek's Tower with your neighborhood Drovian, he would be seen as more of a tool, which is exactly how the Allanaki public is supposed to see gemmers.

If the sole idea being communicated here was blocking off the Elementalists Quarters and giving them shops and water, I would dislike it. But the other ideas combined with this could make things really cool, interesting, and much more like what the game world is supposed to be.

[LoD]

Given the recent past history of the playerbase and the general trend that everything is moving toward, I don't see how this inevitable conclusion can be prevented--or that most of the vocal playerbase on the gdb would want anything else.

The arguement that an improved Elemental Quarter will give mages no reason to leave its walls while simultaneously whipping the mundane populace into a general frenzy over the presence of magickers anywhere outside said Quarter is an extreme and pessimistic outlook.

We have an entire city-state (Allanak) that has food, shops, and trade goods that can be purchased all within its walls.  That has not stopped countless people from leaving to hunt, trade, travel, and explore opportunities outside of their microcosm.  This model is tried and true with decades of evidence pointing toward its success.

What does not work, as evidenced by the Blackwing and Muark, is when you create an entire society that has no disadvantages.  Protected lands to hunt, food, water, tolerance to almost any guild choice, fun toys, Immortal attention -- it discourages players from seeking these things outside of their own world.

Here are a few concepts for why magickers might still need to interact:

Accumulation of Wealth

I'm assuming most stores and shops built within the Elementalist Quarter would not be giving away their products.  People need money.  Food, water, clothing - it's not free.  You may be able to convince some of the elementalists to make you some free water if they happen to be around and feeling generous, but there are going to be times when you are forced to pay for the things your character wants.  Greed and a pursuit of wealth is always a motivating factor for people to leave the safe confines of their environment (i.e. walled city, outpost, village, estate).

Use of their Talents

What good are magickal talents without an eventful use for them.  Rangers and Warriors often leave the city for no other reason than to practice their skills in an appropriate environment.  They hunt so they can feed themselves, buy armor and weapons, supplies, have relationships, pay for apartments, get drunk on Yochem -- magickers are still people.  They have feelings, wants, desires, needs that will not be fulfilled by sitting in the Quarter.

Personal Ambition

So merchants are the only ones who can dream of being wealthy or influential?  Warriosr are the only ones who dream for glory?  Rangers are the only ones that dream of...people not saying their class is too powerful?  There are a thousand reasons why elementalists would want to venture forth and pursue the interests of their character.  I'm quite certain that the populace will not be the lynch mob you make it out to be.

Political Aspirations

Some people were not always magickers.  Perhaps they were involved in something long before they ever discovered their powers.  They might have had loyalties they wish to keep (i.e. to King, to City, to House, to Family).  They might have ambitions that must now be furthered through different channels.

This notion that elementalists will creep and shrink into their shells, never to emerge again on the streets of the city and vanish from society completely lacks imagination and reason.  The 'rinth is a similar model, and many people consider it their favorite environment in which to play.  Perhaps -other- organizations will emerge from a more active Elementalist Quarter.  Mundane organizations.  Cults.  Followers.  Who knows.

Xygax is right on the money about how these limiting factors are necessary to keep the power potential of magickers in check.  There need to be drawbacks to karma classes/races that do not make them a superior choice on all fronts.

-LoD

[bloodfromstone]

Personal Ambition

Important! As long as mages are people first and magickers second, this should always be a factor.

[Kelen]

...let's just make another city and keep people happy for awhile...

Until Tek buries it in a sandstorm.

[amish overlord]

Hiding Gems

I'd really like to see the ability to hide one's gem with an article of clothing. Somewhat akin to the raise hood, lower hood, perhaps a command that would transfer a cover and uncover a wear location if the person happened to be wearing something like a cape, cloak, shawl, scarf, etc...

Anyone with peek would still have a chance to see the gem, and of course there would be severe punishments if a gemmed magicker was found hiding their gem within the city-state. This would allow them to hide their gem while travelling outside of the city-state, and provide some of them with the freedom to do things they think only possible because the gem is ever-present. Unless there's an IC reason of which I'm not aware, there shouldn't be an IC reason why the gem couldn't be easily concealed or obscured to mundane eyes.

I so totally agree with this.

I remember someone who hid their gem, not sure if was a specific item, something imms had to do to make possible or what. This was several years, but they had their gem hidden.

Amish Overlord  

[Intrepid]

I like to think that we as the staff have done a pretty good job of stemming the sort of cultural "slide" you're referring to, so I don't find the slippery-slope argument compelling or convincing.  If you disagree with me and can offer specific examples, please send them to me via e-mail.  The examples I've seen cited on this and the other thread thusfar have been anecdotal examples of a particular player or room-full of players acting either on their own, or in a small mob.  Those aren't great examples to me, because a particular solo player may well have a special loathing for magickers (or may be played badly), and it is very easy (and ICly believable) to be drawn into a mob like that.

I would be more than happy to email you the examples I have in mind.

Even if you're right, I'd rather slide more toward elementalists being isolated than accepted and integrated.  It remains one of the best factors in limiting what would otherwise be an overwhelmingly powerful set of classes that experienced no cultural or coded drawbacks, and enjoys an arguably large overall PC population.  Conflict is good, segregation is conflict (as long as you can make the segregated people on both sides need interaction with the other side).

I would rather see elementalists unaccepted and integrated.  It's easy to avoid conflict and intrigue when someone is never around you--you never have to interact with the object of your revulsion.  In a segregated populace with npc vendors and single-entrance quarters, you can't guarantee that pcs will interact--especially not when the few interactions become violent due to overreactive players, of which there are no small number.

If the sole idea being communicated here was blocking off the Elementalists Quarters and giving them shops and water, I would dislike it. But the other ideas combined with this could make things really cool, interesting, and much more like what the game world is supposed to be.

There is a difference between theory and practice.  Lots of things look great on paper, but their implementation can carry the idea far from the original intent.  I believe that, in the case of some of the people reading the ideas expressed here, this exactly what is happening.  For others, it is just means to isolating the existing mages, which a few posters have made clear was a favorable concept.

[Angela Christine]

The purpose for the elementalist quarters was to keep magickers separate from the common populace,

I disagree.  I think the temple section of the middle quarter was designed to contain spell casting and magick, but not people who happen to be cursed with magickal abilities.  Until quite recently there were many ways in and out of that section, the road network was well integrated with the rest of the roads in the city.  When I started playing there was a non-elementalist who owned quite a large home near the Rukkian temple, though I'm sure even then it was rare.

If events are taking us towards ever greater segregation of people with elemental links that is one thing, but I think it would be a grave mistake to assume that it was always like that, or that it was intended to be that way.  There is no elementalist's quarter, the temples were built in a section of the middle quarter.  It is not a ghetto.  

If it were intended to segregate magickers that way there would have been no reason not to allow spell casting throughout the area, rather than only in the Temples.  Why bother building the temples at all?  The temples were built at great expense by the City, not the elementalists themselves.  The Whiran temple is quite possibly the second tallest building in the city, and would have been quite challenging and expensive to build.  Ok, there were built a long time ago when the city may have been wealthier and then environment friendlier than it is now, but still. Wouldn't it have been cheaper to just build a wall around the area and let the elementalists pitch their tents and shanties themselves?  The temples appear to have been designed to be attractive, and specifically to be attractive to each type of elementalist.  There would be no need to attract the elementalists if they were routinely being rounded up and thrown in against their will.

* * *


Quite apart from that, I think a Tavern in the plaza would have some problems.  Currently there is just the one table, but is that one table getting much use?  No, because it is outside.  It wouldn't matter if there were 5 tables, if they were still outside they wouldn't get much use either.  There are outdoor benches all over the city, and none of them get much use.  When the weather is bad it is windy out there,  and you get sand in your ale.  If it gets dark when the weather is bad then you are just sitting in the dark, because a torch or glow chrystal doesn't help.  If you have been out foraging or mining and you are tired it is going to take forever to regenerate at an outdoor table.  Meanwhile the unforgiving gaze of Suk-Krath means that you will getting thirsty faster than necessary.  More outdoor tables wouldn't make the plaza much more attractive than it is now.

A completely new indoor tavern would be more attractive, especially if it contained a rumor board.  You could even justify building one as a quiet "reward" from the government for the good the elementalists did during the war, assuming that Allanak doesn't lose.  I'm still not sure if such a tavern would become popular though.  Many of the times I've tried a gemmed elementalist the Vivaduan temple seemed to be a popular gathering spot, and I don't know if a tavern could compete with it's charms.  That temple is near the main (now only) entrance to the section so people entering and leaving the area can easily glance into the temple and see if anyone is around, and people hanging out in the temple can easily see who is coming and going.  It also has a great ambiance (I think the Vivaduans may have invented air conditioning, because otherwise I'd expect that temple to be a humid, sweaty, steambath and be quite unpleasant to spend time in  -- hot and humid is generally considered more unpleasant than hot and dry.)  And since it is a temple, it is legal for gemmed to cast in there, as often as they can think of an excuse to cast.  It isn't legal for them to cast in the street, or in the plaza, and it probably wouldn't be legal for them to cast in a tavern either.  On the other hand it is illegal for non-elementalists to enter the temple, which means that people looking to hire an elementalist can't hang out in them.


I think an elementalist tavern would be most successful if were built on Vivadu road rather than in the plaza, for easy accessibility.  For IC justification of a "new" building popping up, just assume that it was converted from one of the many virtual homes and buildings that exist throughout the city, and make it an enterable object rather than a direction, so that it doesn't mess up the ability to map the area. Having it near the entrance to the quarter, in the relatively nonthreatening area of the water elementalists would make it more accessible to mundanes who have business with the gemmed.



* * *


To enhance the sense of clannishness and distinctiveness of the gemmed, why not stick a board in the backroom of every temple?  A board in the backroom of the Vivaduan temple just for Vivaduan elementalists, one in the back of the rukkian temple just for rukkian elementalists, and so on.  Just as rumors that might be important to the gemmed might not circulate throughout the entire city, rumors important to the Whirans might not be important to all the gemmed.  


Angela Christine

[Intrepid]

The arguement that an improved Elemental Quarter will give mages no reason to leave its walls while simultaneously whipping the mundane populace into a general frenzy over the presence of magickers anywhere outside said Quarter is an extreme and pessimistic outlook.

I find it very hard to believe that you have never, in your entire time playing this game, ever seen the playerbase overreact in some aspect to the game.  My viewpoint is pessimistic, but it's not extreme; it's a reflection of what I've seen in game as Arm has evolved.  I assure you, it was not something I just made up on the fly.

We have an entire city-state (Allanak) that has food, shops, and trade goods that can be purchased all within its walls.  That has not stopped countless people from leaving to hunt, trade, travel, and explore opportunities outside of their microcosm.  This model is tried and true with decades of evidence pointing toward its success.

Right, but many gemmers are rp'd as staying within the walls for safety, not because it's their summer residence.  The difference between these other travelers and the gemmers is that no one is going to kill you for wearing something around your neck that they don't like when they see a mundane traveler; it's a bit different as a gemmer.

What does not work, as evidenced by the Blackwing and Muark, is when you create an entire society that has no disadvantages.  Protected lands to hunt, food, water, tolerance to almost any guild choice, fun toys, Immortal attention -- it discourages players from seeking these things outside of their own world.

While I wasn't going to get into the specifics surrounding those iso clans, we are in agreement that that is a major problem with them.

I'm assuming most stores and shops built within the Elementalist Quarter would not be giving away their products.  People need money.  Food, water, clothing - it's not free.  You may be able to convince some of the elementalists to make you some free water if they happen to be around and feeling generous, but there are going to be times when you are forced to pay for the things your character wants.  Greed and a pursuit of wealth is always a motivating factor for people to leave the safe confines of their environment (i.e. walled city, outpost, village, estate).

Right, right...and their avenues are solely Oash and the Templarate.  I find it amusing that the large number of visible magickers is being blamed on the mage pcs rather than the templars constantly hiring them.  Unless other options are offered, you will still see magicker conscripts on a regular basis in places you should not.  The one thing that escapes me here is: When did the merchant houses become so picky that they couldn't deal with mages?  Nobles are meant to keep up their good name and set the example, Kadius is based in the north, so I understand their reasons for not doing so...but Salarr and Kurac?  Since when are these houses akin to pompous nobles?  It boggles the mind.

What good are magickal talents without an eventful use for them.  Rangers and Warriors often leave the city for no other reason than to practice their skills in an appropriate environment.  They hunt so they can feed themselves, buy armor and weapons, supplies, have relationships, pay for apartments, get drunk on Yochem -- magickers are still people.  They have feelings, wants, desires, needs that will not be fulfilled by sitting in the Quarter.

I don't know what point you were trying to make above, but the use of their powers will not generally cause them to want to do so where they can be arrested and/or attacked.  They're still people, yes--people who are afraid of getting beaten up and arrested like anyone else.

So merchants are the only ones who can dream of being wealthy or influential?  Warriosr are the only ones who dream for glory?  Rangers are the only ones that dream of...people not saying their class is too powerful?  There are a thousand reasons why elementalists would want to venture forth and pursue the interests of their character.  I'm quite certain that the populace will not be the lynch mob you make it out to be.

It already has been a borderline lynch mob on past occasions.  I believe it's been stemmed somewhat mainly because players have been forced to co-exist in the same room on occasion.  Vague interests take a back seat to personal survival on the hierarchy of needs.

Some people were not always magickers.  Perhaps they were involved in something long before they ever discovered their powers.  They might have had loyalties they wish to keep (i.e. to King, to City, to House, to Family).  They might have ambitions that must now be furthered through different channels.

Loyalty and ambition are great, but when you're shut out of any possible opportunity, the pursuit of those are stemmed.

This notion that elementalists will creep and shrink into their shells, never to emerge again on the streets of the city and vanish from society completely lacks imagination and reason.  The 'rinth is a similar model, and many people consider it their favorite environment in which to play.  Perhaps -other- organizations will emerge from a more active Elementalist Quarter.  Mundane organizations.  Cults.  Followers.  Who knows.

The rinth is not a similar model.  Again, the gems make all of this very, very different.  Aside from the accent, a rinther can pass themselves off as a norm indefinitely.  I myself like the Rinth, and I've heard a number of imms and pcs alike complain that too many people venture from the Rinth and don't spend enough time in it.  As far as other organizations, pcs have been trying for years just to get a tavern into the quarter--what makes you think that organizations will have even the most brief of presences?

Xygax is right on the money about how these limiting factors are necessary to keep the power potential of magickers in check.  There need to be drawbacks to karma classes/races that do not make them a superior choice on all fronts.

They've never been a superior choice on all fronts.  Each elementalist is a collection of abilities, and an incomplete collection of abilities at that.  Elementalists can do very specific actions better than the mundane guilds, yet lacks entire skillsets; some can be found in another element, some can't be found in any of them.  A blanket statement like this is yet another example of how players take the model and grossly exaggerate it.

[Anonymous kank with wings]

Intrepid:  I think even the most isolated of ISO clans enrich the game world by existing, even if many players do not witness them.

This is true for the staff, that can see all. But will it really help the players to have magick basically taken out of the game?

Also, what would motivate magickers to use their spells, i.e. to be magickers? Other than a few subsistence spells, it would be like an athlete training for the Olympic games while knowing it will never be held, not even a high school track meet.

[Xygax]

Intrepid:  I think even the most isolated of ISO clans enrich the game world by existing, even if many players do not witness them.

This is true for the staff, that can see all. But will it really help the players to have magick basically taken out of the game?

Yes, the game is better as a low-magick environment.  It is intended to be a low-magick environment, and the quality of quests and overall RP improves when magickal encounters are rare and special.  Moreover, magick-oriented quests, in my experience, require far more staff oversight than mundane ones (largely because there has been so little infrastructure built up to keep mages busy).  But, you're also missing the core of my original point which was that the world is a giant web and even iso-clans tug at the strands of the web from time to time, and the ripples from those strands are often felt world-wide.

Also, what would motivate magickers to use their spells, i.e. to be magickers? Other than a few subsistence spells, it would be like an athlete training for the Olympic games while knowing it will never be held, not even a high school track meet.

Why must they be motivated to use their spells?  Why should they train like Olympic athletes?  One of my least favorite parts of the game is spell-training; so why do we need mechanics that demand it?  Why do we need mechanics that even encourage it?  Someone on the other thread even said that it makes them feel dirty.  The way spell-training works currently often seems very twinkish, even if you are actively emoting with brilliant, flowery, evocative prose.

That said, yes, mages have magick and it's interesting when they use it, and it creates conflict.  The motivation, though, shouldn't be "I need to use my spells", or, "I need to train," the motivation should be, "I need to eat," or, "I need to acquire shelter," and for a mage, the path of least resistance to attaining those goals should (somehow) ideally be magick.  That's what needs to be fleshed out, and providing it would, I think satisfy both LoD and Intrepid (and most of the players in-between), because it would create conflict AND make mages seem more rare to mundane PCs, even if their player-population boomed.

-- X

[LoD]

I find it very hard to believe that you have never, in your entire time playing this game, ever seen the playerbase overreact in some aspect to the game.  My viewpoint is pessimistic, but it's not extreme; it's a reflection of what I've seen in game as Arm has evolved.  I assure you, it was not something I just made up on the fly.

I've played the role from both ends, most recently in the last 12 months prior to the war, and I witnessed far more tolerance than hostility toward mages in the taverns.  It is my personal experience upon which I base my opinions over about a RL year's worth of playing time between the two roles.  Perhaps you have bad luck, or play a character easy to hate.

Right, right...and their avenues are solely Oash and the Templarate.

The only "lack of avenues" inherent in the mage class are those that come along with the player.  Who says you cannot work out an arrangement with someone other than either the Oashi or the Templarate?  You?  The documentation?  I agree those are the two most aggressive employers/press-gangs in the City, but a driven elementalist could find work elsewhere with enough effort.

Loyalty and ambition are great, but when you're shut out of any possible opportunity, the pursuit of those are stemmed.

A blanket statement like this is yet another example of how players take the model and grossly exaggerate it.

I think you should apply your observation to yourself here.  When you are "shut out of any possible opportunity"?  This is an exaggeration and would never happen.  Ever.  You always have choices.  Always.  They might not be easy, but they are present and possible.

I agree with you that Merchant Houses should be more open to the employment of mages as part of remote operations with low degrees of visibility ,and perhaps it would take a strong PC to make that happen.  Many things can be done with enough planning, drive, and effort.  Including the employment of magickers.  Including breaking down social barriers.  Many things.

-LoD

[Forty Winks]

So what do you propose to change in the current system, and how the elementalist quarters are now? Is the current state of the elementalist quarters satisfying for you, as a player?  :wink:

Rather than shooting down ideas, some constructive feedback might be of better use. There will always be counter points to a given idea, but for those stated so far, the reasons why it would benefit the game have been stated in what appears to be in a logical manner, but the points that are against change to the elementalist quarters seems to be based upon extremes of what might happen.

Now that I've said that, I'm going try and back some of these points made anyway.  :roll:

Also, what would motivate magickers to use their spells, i.e. to be magickers? Other than a few subsistence spells, it would be like an athlete training for the Olympic games while knowing it will never be held, not even a high school track meet.

This question has been addressed with suggestions like inter-quarter politics and with a larger mage population, more mage-related quests can develop to keep them active and busy. Other suggestions can always be helpful, rather than trying to make a point by asking a question.  :lol:

The rinth is not a similar model. Again, the gems make all of this very, very different. Aside from the accent, a rinther can pass themselves off as a norm indefinitely. I myself like the Rinth, and I've heard a number of imms and pcs alike complain that too many people venture from the Rinth and don't spend enough time in it. As far as other organizations, pcs have been trying for years just to get a tavern into the quarter--what makes you think that organizations will have even the most brief of presences?

I don't see how gems are any different than the accent to set people apart. You hear someone with a rinthi accent, and you can come up several stereotypes within a few moments that may or may not be always correct, and people act on these stereotypes.

Also, I don't quite see what the point of the logic regarding the tavern is. What does organizations have to do with taverns? The reason why people venture away from the rinth is for the same reason elementalists venture out of the quarter. There isn't a large enough PC community to support itself there, so they go out in search of community that does. By adding a tavern or similar such formal gathering place for mages within the quarter, it'll give a reason to congregate there without having to meet outside the quarters at the regular taverns. The vivaduan temple can act as more of an informal place to gather.

[Forty Winks]

Forty Winks wrote:


The purpose for the elementalist quarters was to keep magickers separate from the common populace,  

I disagree. I think the temple section of the middle quarter was designed to contain spell casting and magick, but not people who happen to be cursed with magickal abilities. Until quite recently there were many ways in and out of that section, the road network was well integrated with the rest of the roads in the city. When I started playing there was a non-elementalist who owned quite a large home near the Rukkian temple, though I'm sure even then it was rare.

If events are taking us towards ever greater segregation of people with elemental links that is one thing, but I think it would be a grave mistake to assume that it was always like that, or that it was intended to be that way. There is no elementalist's quarter, the temples were built in a section of the middle quarter. It is not a ghetto.

If it were intended to segregate magickers that way there would have been no reason not to allow spell casting throughout the area, rather than only in the Temples. Why bother building the temples at all? The temples were built at great expense by the City, not the elementalists themselves. The Whiran temple is quite possibly the second tallest building in the city, and would have been quite challenging and expensive to build. Ok, there were built a long time ago when the city may have been wealthier and then environment friendlier than it is now, but still. Wouldn't it have been cheaper to just build a wall around the area and let the elementalists pitch their tents and shanties themselves? The temples appear to have been designed to be attractive, and specifically to be attractive to each type of elementalist. There would be no need to attract the elementalists if they were routinely being rounded up and thrown in against their will.

The fact that the temples were made for the various elementalists attracts the gemmed populace to the quarter. While in the past, it may be true gemmed weren't intended to remain in the quarter, the actions done by the senate to close off the other entrances to and from the quarter besides one is a hint of the change in this opinion. As the gemmed are attracted to their various temples, they begin to settle down around these locales, thus the other shops and plaza around the temple. If it were still as you say, AC, then the temples would be incorporated into the middle quarter of Allanak, and they wouldn't be sectioned off from the rest, as gemmed are trafficking too and from their homes from other parts of the city.

An interesting point I came up with while writing this post, is that if this was the case, there would still be mundane commoners living around these temples up until the seperation of the elementalist quarters, and probably a few still remain there. The elementalist quarters isn't entirely all gemmed, and that similarly goes for the rest of the city with mages. Yet, I think because the barriers around the ele quarter now, this'll become less and less likely that the two (mundanes and gemmed) will be neighbors for long.

[Anonymous kank with wings]

The motivation, though, shouldn't be "I need to use my spells", or, "I need to train," the motivation should be, "I need to eat," or, "I need to acquire shelter," and for a mage, the path of least resistance to attaining those goals should (somehow) ideally be magick.

Alright. The gemmed already have shelter in the quarter. If they're effectively walled in, I expect they'll all start to associate out of sheer human need for someone to talk to, and then two simple magicks can provide for all. What then? Why should another spell of any sort be cast? It would be more profitable to work on that next Kruth or dice game to while away the time.

Even the magickers won't really have magick.

[Forty Winks]

The motivation, though, shouldn't be "I need to use my spells", or, "I need to train," the motivation should be, "I need to eat," or, "I need to acquire shelter," and for a mage, the path of least resistance to attaining those goals should (somehow) ideally be magick.

Alright. The gemmed already have shelter in the quarter. If they're effectively walled in, I expect they'll all start to associate out of sheer human need for someone to talk to, and then two simple magicks can provide for all. What then? Why should another spell of any sort be cast? It would be more profitable to work on that next Kruth or dice game to while away the time.

Even the magickers won't really have magick.

Bt this is assuming that the magickers will be "completely" removed from the rest of the game world, which it certainly won't happen, as stated by staff and other suggestions for change to the quarters. While daily life continues for the magickers, sooner or later a plot will develop that'll involve the gemmed to use their magick. Whether due to rogue mages causing trouble around the city/surrounding area, or criminals willing to hire gemmed for certain activities, there will always be possibilities open. It's just up to players to come up with them.

[Xygax]

The motivation, though, shouldn't be "I need to use my spells", or, "I need to train," the motivation should be, "I need to eat," or, "I need to acquire shelter," and for a mage, the path of least resistance to attaining those goals should (somehow) ideally be magick.

Alright. The gemmed already have shelter in the quarter. If they're effectively walled in, I expect they'll all start to associate out of sheer human need for someone to talk to, and then two simple magicks can provide for all. What then? Why should another spell of any sort be cast? It would be more profitable to work on that next Kruth or dice game to while away the time.

Even the magickers won't really have magick.

I don't have time to come up with a more comprehensive list of potential motivations.  LoD mentioned some, there are millions of others.  But, yes, if your magicker isn't imaginative enough or ambitious enough to see the potential for more in life than a communal barracks and fruit conjured from sand, those two motivations will not push you very far (though you might still need to make a friend to get the sand-conjured-fruit)...  A mundane character with no ambition or imagination will have the same problem.

-- X

[Anonymous]

hmm...I'm starting to think some people are right...there are too many magickers...and their players are starting to ask for the some of the RP advantages usually enjoyed by mundanes.

I fear at this rate magickers will end up being special apped and played by only those with the understanding that magickers are rare and usually feared. That it might end up leading to some very lonely RPing.
That they aren't classes built with the same RPing opportunities as warrior or rangers or any other mundane.

In short i agree with Xygax that the world was built to be a low-magick environment...and in fact, i too like it this way.

[Intrepid]

I don't have time to come up with a more comprehensive list of potential motivations.  LoD mentioned some, there are millions of others.  But, yes, if your magicker isn't imaginative enough or ambitious enough to see the potential for more in life than a communal barracks and fruit conjured from sand, those two motivations will not push you very far (though you might still need to make a friend to get the sand-conjured-fruit)...  A mundane character with no ambition or imagination will have the same problem.

Right, but what LoD and I are were tossing around was the notion that, somewhere down the line, the Merchant Houses became too prissy to employ mages.  This has been attempted in the past and been slapped down.  As I said before, it's within Kadius' collective personality to keep a favorable public face.  Kurac and Salarr, on the other hand, are less noble and more ambitious.  And yet, apparently squeamish on this one topic.

Another thing to keep in mind...discrimination.  Since when is Allanak brimming with possibilities when you're not favored?  Someone has to buy the things you sell, someone has to be willing to hire you for a job, someone has to be willing to interact with you period.  If you follow the fear model to its most logical conclusion, no pc in Nak should be hiring mages for fear of having a walking tacnuke around them, ready to explode.  Now, I don't doubt that certain npcs might be willing to cooperate, but discrimination builds some rather formidable barriers, and these npcs are undoubtedly rare.

Now, I'm sure the Rinth has possibilities...but then, why be a gemmer?  You're in the Rinth, at least commit that much of a crime and go rogue.  Myself, given the choice, I'd rather not be crapped on socially.  Being a mage is far more my pc's business than it ever will be anyone else's, and my possibilities are only closed when I have to wear the gem.  I can do anything a gemmer can do and more as one of the ungemmed.

[Kennath]

I don't have time to come up with a more comprehensive list of potential motivations.  LoD mentioned some, there are millions of others.  But, yes, if your magicker isn't imaginative enough or ambitious enough to see the potential for more in life than a communal barracks and fruit conjured from sand, those two motivations will not push you very far (though you might still need to make a friend to get the sand-conjured-fruit)...  A mundane character with no ambition or imagination will have the same problem.

Right, but what LoD and I are were tossing around was the notion that, somewhere down the line, the Merchant Houses became too prissy to employ mages.  This has been attempted in the past and been slapped down.  As I said before, it's within Kadius' collective personality to keep a favorable public face.  Kurac and Salarr, on the other hand, are less noble and more ambitious.  And yet, apparently squeamish on this one topic.

Another thing to keep in mind...discrimination.  Since when is Allanak brimming with possibilities when you're not favored?  Someone has to buy the things you sell, someone has to be willing to hire you for a job, someone has to be willing to interact with you period.  If you follow the fear model to its most logical conclusion, no pc in Nak should be hiring mages for fear of having a walking tacnuke around them, ready to explode.  Now, I don't doubt that certain npcs might be willing to cooperate, but discrimination builds some rather formidable barriers, and these npcs are undoubtedly rare.

Now, I'm sure the Rinth has possibilities...but then, why be a gemmer?  You're in the Rinth, at least commit that much of a crime and go rogue.  Myself, given the choice, I'd rather not be crapped on socially.  Being a mage is far more my pc's business than it ever will be anyone else's, and my possibilities are only closed when I have to wear the gem.  I can do anything a gemmer can do and more as one of the ungemmed.

That sux, really. If your a magicker your going to have consequences, not just uber-cool spells. Your going to be discriminated against and in some cases hated. That just makes it funner in my oppinion. Just play it how it would be realisicly be played

-Ken

[Xygax]

I don't have time to come up with a more comprehensive list of potential motivations.  LoD mentioned some, there are millions of others.  But, yes, if your magicker isn't imaginative enough or ambitious enough to see the potential for more in life than a communal barracks and fruit conjured from sand, those two motivations will not push you very far (though you might still need to make a friend to get the sand-conjured-fruit)...  A mundane character with no ambition or imagination will have the same problem.

Right, but what LoD and I are were tossing around was the notion that, somewhere down the line, the Merchant Houses became too prissy to employ mages.  This has been attempted in the past and been slapped down.  As I said before, it's within Kadius' collective personality to keep a favorable public face.  Kurac and Salarr, on the other hand, are less noble and more ambitious.  And yet, apparently squeamish on this one topic.

This is a legitimate point and something that clearer documentation for each individual clan should resolve relatively easily:  does your clan hire magickers?  Publically?  Aggressively?  What for?  If your clan doesn't currently have documentation that answers this question, and you're in a hiring role, you should ask for it.  Whatever the answer, it is still likely that the relationship between clan and employee will be different for mages, especially if you've been hired covertly.

Another thing to keep in mind...discrimination.  Since when is Allanak brimming with possibilities when you're not favored?  Someone has to buy the things you sell, someone has to be willing to hire you for a job, someone has to be willing to interact with you period.  If you follow the fear model to its most logical conclusion, no pc in Nak should be hiring mages for fear of having a walking tacnuke around them, ready to explode.  Now, I don't doubt that certain npcs might be willing to cooperate, but discrimination builds some rather formidable barriers, and these npcs are undoubtedly rare.

The possibilities remain, even for the hated.  Elves and half-elves thrive in Allanak, in spite of (from what I've seen) very thoroughly portrayed discrimination (too thoroughly, as some have observed on the sidelines of this discussion) -- the opportunities to pursue various ambitions remain.  And elves and half-elves don't even have a specific region of the city allocated to their specific use (unless you count the east-side of the labyrinth, which strictly-speaking, you shouldn't) -- what we're talking about is giving mages a relatively safe haven to retreat to in an event like that.  Are you arguing that a more fully developed Elementalists Quarter in Allanaki takes opportunities away from mages?

Now, I'm sure the Rinth has possibilities...but then, why be a gemmer?  You're in the Rinth, at least commit that much of a crime and go rogue.  Myself, given the choice, I'd rather not be crapped on socially.  Being a mage is far more my pc's business than it ever will be anyone else's, and my possibilities are only closed when I have to wear the gem.  I can do anything a gemmer can do and more as one of the ungemmed.

You seem like a convert to my point of view here.  Your initial remark, "why be a gemmer" is what we're trying to address, and is at the core of LoD's original remarks in the previous thread.  How do we find ways to make mages a more OOCly-workable set of classes without inflicting their IC whims and potential for mayhem and destruction on the rest of the PC-world?  I think a good step in the right direction would be to make being a gemmed Elementalist more OOCly interesting -- this also helps with the "too many rogue mages" problem, if you believe there is one.  Others have remarked that they consider being gemmed unplayable (maybe even you?  Isn't that in fact what you're saying in this post?), and no doubt that is because the possible niches for them to fill are limited.  Worse still, they are hampered by the bigotry of the mundanes around them.

Someone (you, again?) defined the term "tolerance" a while back on one of these threads, and the definition I most liked could be paraphrased as, "enduring or surviving, as with an unpleasant or unsettling meal" and I think that is the sort of tolerance you should look for from the mundane citizens of Allanak...  so given that, what opportunities does a gemmed Elementalist realistically have?  How can they be given directed and meaningful activities (without generating a tremendous burden for the staff)?  We already have this place in the world that is just a hair short of being an excellent solution to many of these problems.

Oh, and the remark that you "can do anything a gemmer can do and more as one of the ungemmed" isn't correct:  you can't be openly employed in Allanak as an elementalist, without wearing the gem.  That's an obvious one, but I think a few of other options are made available by the gem, as well.  A better E.Q. would generate still more options AND help to make the mundane world seem less "oppressed" by magick.

-- X

[Armaddict]

Me, I'm one of the people who probably 'overexaggerates' magicker hatred...perhaps a remnant from how things with mages were a few years ago compared to now.

However, I'd just like to note that first off...melodrama is huge in Armageddon.  Taking things to the extreme makes the definition of your character easily apparent for other people to pick up and is a reaction to -you- knowing how your character should see it.  Thus...fear is often taken to the extreme, and so is hatred.

Second off...there have been extreme discriminations to the point that the target felt abused, powerless, and helpless before, even in the cases where that target group was extremely helpful and even depended on.  Not to bring up something that may be sensitive to people, but slavery in the early united states is something of an example.  People easily found, numerous, and in many cases more powerful than their controller (not in the same way, I'm sure there will be holes poked in this by many and perhaps some who are irritated.  But I'm just saying...it's plausible for things to be extreme).

That being said...even if I -am- far too extremist in my magick-hating tendencies, I -still- see these ideas for the elementalists quarters as not only beneficial, but downright cool sounding.  What can be wrong with mages having magickal plots to enter?  With having an area where they don't have to worry about the over-played hatred?  Hell, with having an area where when a -mundane- comes, -they- get to look at them like they're a freak and weird for being here.

I like the ideas, and I think it will not only give mages more things to do, make more possible employment opportunities, and provide more 'magickal' role-play...but it also keeps the segregation and separation that has always been part of this game intact while also putting in the sort of acceptance I've always pictured.  They can stay here, but that doesn't mean I like it.  At least they aren't in front of my face all the time.

As Xygax said (I think it was Xygax, anyway), Armageddon is a low-magick mud.  And that's always been part of the beauty of it.  Over-exposure to magick takes away the cool factor of when it is there.  People used to get blown away by things mages could do, and when you came upon an unknown one that you weren't sure whether it was friendly or not, the shaky hands and adrenaline would creep in regardless of what happened.

That just doesn't happen anymore, and it's not because of experience in the game.  It's just becoming more and more prominent.

I do, however, agree with you on one thing, Intrepid.

I find it amusing that the large number of visible magickers is being blamed on the mage pcs rather than the templars constantly hiring them. Unless other options are offered, you will still see magicker conscripts on a regular basis in places you should not.

I mentioned this in another thread, but I believe it was dismissed.  Mages are becoming more prominent due to the -templarate- seeming to become more dependent on them, and more heavily sought after.

When did the merchant houses become so picky that they couldn't deal with mages? Nobles are meant to keep up their good name and set the example, Kadius is based in the north, so I understand their reasons for not doing so...but Salarr and Kurac? Since when are these houses akin to pompous nobles?

I don't think they're closed off.  But they aren't heavily promoted, either.  As Xygax said...it's up to the recruiters to check and see what the protocol is.  I know it isn't a business, but the U.S. Government, or the CIA, or whatever you want to bring in...we all know they have assassins.  They don't bring that to the forefront of attention because then the populace (who seems to generally not approve of this particular method) would be constantly curious about how they're being used or what they've done.  It's better for things to be low-key.  I know, I know...I give vague analogies that don't fit perfectly.  But it's to try to explain a concept rather than give a concrete example.

[Armaddict]

That sux, really. If your a magicker your going to have consequences, not just uber-cool spells. Your going to be discriminated against and in some cases hated. That just makes it funner in my oppinion. Just play it how it would be realisicly be played

-Ken

Careful Kennath

Granted, I'm much more aggressive in getting my ideas across, but this seems to be the same general viewpoint I held, and I made it a blanket statement, yes...but it offends some people greatly (myself included, in situations) to attack peoples motivations for wanting changes.

I made an apology since it -was- pretty strong, but I don't know whether it was taken to heart.

However, the point remains...I think the discrimination and such is part of playing the role.  Some people try to get around it, which is completely IC.  Some don't.  But I'd rather not have those drawbacks that are entrenched in the culture, and taken seriously by many players, come under attack as overzealous because they play as close to how it's been as they can.