The Elementalist Quarters - Present and Future

[Forty Winks]

Think of it from the point of view of the people who run Allanak:

We already let those gemmed fucks live here, AND gave them their own part of the city.  Why the hell should we give them anything else?  We don't owe them anything; they owe US simply for letting them live.

If this example is to reason that there shouldn't be shops and stalls for magickers in the elementalist quarters, it's not very convincing.  :wink:  For one, what would be wrong with people who were merchants and shop owners previously, but have come to realize their abilities? They have the option to either keep this a secret, and live in fear, or to pack up and market to a different group of people who may have similar problems. Giving the quarters a few shops for the more regular needs to live such as a grocer and other accessories, along with a place to congregate for marketing and trade, will add more to gemmed interaction, as magickers can now put their subguilds into play without having to leave the quarters.

[Forty Winks]

Commoners and magickers are supposed to be seperate, thats why they have their own quarter of the city. It's designed for them to stay away from the public. And mentioned on prior and still occuring threads magick should not be a regular thing for mundane PCs. But -if- a magicker -wanted- to go to the gaj to hang out with you, they could.

-Ken

Why not just create MagickerMud, consisting of the Elementalist's Quarter, and run it separately from Armaggedon. It sounds like this would fit what you want perfectly.

If changes were made to the elementalist quarter that made it a more appealing place for players, inevitably the players will likely be kept seperate from the rest of the populace. Despite this, I wouldn't think it would detract from the playing experience and balance of the gameworld, rather enhancing it. With more elementalist PCs together, more plots and quests will be started where otherwise it may not have been possible. Whether this is a good thing or not I couldn't say currently, as it takes into account whether there are enough magicker-related quests going on now or not.  :roll:

[Forty Winks]

Oh, one thing I would like to see in the elementalist quarters is politics, both inter-quarter politics between temples, as well as politics outside the quarters between templars and perhaps certain Houses. Of course, for something like this to even get started would require both a gemmed PC population, as well as the culture or crisis to begin it.  :wink:

[Armaddict]

I like this thread.

Very pro-elementalist-quarter role-play.  I actually have always kind of wanted to see more of inter-elemental struggle as was hinted at in helpfiles.

And this -does- address the problems I had.  It provides a niche so that gemmed mages don't have to go searching in the mainstream for one.

[marko]

I believe that there should be some sort of temple elementalist immortal or two to assist in developing the temples into organizations that vie for power and prestige within the echelons of Allanak that allow them to.  

Whenever the temples are involved in plots and there are temple leaders around that really adds to the feel of gemmed magickers.  People realize there are other organizations that exist that aren't House Oash or working direct for a templar.

[Morfeus]

Last time I played a gemmer it was impossible to buy a food within the Quarter. I am not sure if this changed already or not, but back then, it was a bit annoying. I guess tavern would solve this. Other than that, I don't think a tavern is necessary, because if there is a group of PC gemmers which want to meet, they easily meet in places within the Quarter even without any tavern. At least, when I last played there, there was at least one "usual" meeting point for all gemmers. But well, that is lot of months ago.

[Bebop]

Magickers are supposed to be segregated (sp?  don't have time to check) Anyway ...

I think the Gemmed Quarter should include a tavern, more shops, food and water.  They should never have to leave that Quarter and they should only be interacting with their own kind.  I think in reality most gemmers would not be frequenting normal people's watering holes without half clearing the place out.

[LoD]

The notion of adding a bit of functionality to the elementalist quarter creating an ISO clan is silly.  The quarter is part of the city.  It is accessible by anyone wanting to ventiure into what should be a fairly intimidating and scary place for those that don't belong -- just like the 'rinth.

It is completely different from clans such as the Blackwing, Tan Muark, Conclave, Blackmoon, or any other clan that is neigh unapproachable.  Those clans are isolated not only by language and culture, but by geography.  Elementalists could still choose to venture forth into the city proper should they be interested in using their powers for someone, but they shouldn't be forced to leave that environment if they do not wish it.

Some things this might improve:

RP Environment for Elementalists

Elementalists would have a better sense of community and more interaction between members of different temples if they shared a common source of food/water/socialization.  This interaction could lead to interesting discussions, ideas, feuds, rivalries, and other RP that I imagine is made more difficult without a neutral place to congregate.

This would also provide an IC location for mages to relax and socialize for an escape from the casting at their temples.  I know that I've felt pinned into my guild's temple because my other choices were a mundane tavern where some random templar, soldier, or noble guard might choose to have me thrown in the Arena.  If I'd been able to check a place frequented by elementalists, I might've found a lot more RP opportunities available to me.

Sense of Mystery

Some element of mystery might be returned to the game if the Barrel ceases to have 1-4 mages seated at the bar.  The common shops might begin to see less of these gemmed folk wander their way, and the city at large may actually grow to be a little more fearful when they see a mage because their lack of presence has increased the mystery behind them.

Atmosphere and Approachability

If the lack of elementalists frequenting mundane shops/bars increases even some of the mystery that should hand in hand with their presence, then I believe some of that will transfer to the area in which they live.  Walking along those streets might seem a bit more frightening because the average person may not see a magicker nearly as often.

This would also give people who want to approach elementalists (i.e. templars, soldiers, employers, etc...) a central location to make their desires known.  Announcements aimed at the elementalist community could be made via the rumor boards, and PC's might have a better chance of finding someone not engaged in cast/resting deep within an inaccessible temple.

On a completely different subject:

Hiding Gems

I'd really like to see the ability to hide one's gem with an article of clothing.  Somewhat akin to the raise hood, lower hood, perhaps a command that would transfer a cover and uncover a wear location if the person happened to be wearing something like a cape, cloak, shawl, scarf, etc...

Anyone with peek would still have a chance to see the gem, and of course there would be severe punishments if a gemmed magicker was found hiding their gem within the city-state.  This would allow them to hide their gem while travelling outside of the city-state, and provide some of them with the freedom to do things they think only possible because the gem is ever-present.  Unless there's an IC reason of which I'm not aware, there shouldn't be an IC reason why the gem couldn't be easily concealed or obscured to mundane eyes.

-LoD

[jhunter]

Hiding Gems

I'd really like to see the ability to hide one's gem with an article of clothing. Somewhat akin to the raise hood, lower hood, perhaps a command that would transfer a cover and uncover a wear location if the person happened to be wearing something like a cape, cloak, shawl, scarf, etc...

Anyone with peek would still have a chance to see the gem, and of course there would be severe punishments if a gemmed magicker was found hiding their gem within the city-state. This would allow them to hide their gem while travelling outside of the city-state, and provide some of them with the freedom to do things they think only possible because the gem is ever-present. Unless there's an IC reason of which I'm not aware, there shouldn't be an IC reason why the gem couldn't be easily concealed or obscured to mundane eyes.

I so totally agree with this.

[Delirium]

I just don't like the fact that we're just trying to add small "ISO clans" everywhere.. There's already plenty of them so far, and instead of trying to separate groups of players from the main one, I think we should try and find ways to allow them to participate with the other players without changing too much the "feeling" of Armageddon.

I think he does have a point.

However, I'm still a big proponent of fleshing out gemmed culture.  It can only add to the depth and enjoyability of playing a "collared" mage, which is what this thread is generally after.  Since the Quarter is right in the city, it still gives them a chance to come out and mingle with the rest of the playerbase.

[Intrepid]

You know, the fact that some of you cannot see this coming is astonishing.

Yes, this is the beginning of an iso-clan.  Let me explain:

- First, the elementalist quarter is made self-sufficient.
- Next, elementalist do, by design, flock there to interact with each other.
- Then, some idiot in a tavern gets the notion that, because all the other elementalists are in the quarter, that it must somehow be twinkish for an elementalist to be outside the elementalist's quarter.
- Finally, other players see this and it becomes mainstream.  It's like the word "feck".  Some people are thrilled by it, others aren't, but it gets accepted into the mainstream for better or worse regardless of how much of an error it might be.

Don't think it will happen?  Of course it will.  Just in recent months I've seen an elf get dumped on for being in the Bard's Barrel, when an elf npc is sitting right there in the desc.

As for other iso clans:

:arrow: Blackwing and Tan Muark were placed in areas that are inaccessible; I've always believed this to be a mistake in design and a holdover from the old days.  There are numerous problems with both of these clans that I couldn't even get into on a public discussion board due to the ic sensitivity of the topic.
:arrow: Blackmoon was only partly iso; it was a raiding clan that needed to hide between raids, so I can certainly forgive them for that.
:arrow: The Conclave made a bad choice in being iso and was shut down for it; I still maintain that this clan could have joined the rest of the Known World successfully if there had been some cooperation between the imms and the players.

[Cuusardo]

The gems are all about control over these people, because if no one controls them, they are going to cause problems.  Seriously, play a gemmed PC that tries to organize a fundraiser to build a tavern, or more shops in the Quarter and see what happens.

[Jherlen]

Essentially the Elementalist Quarter would become another "red light" district. The people around there wouldn't visit the rest of the city much, and the people in the city would not often visit the Elementalist Quarter, unless they thought they needed something that a mage could provide. But you wouldn't have an iso clan any more than the 'rinth is an iso clan... you would just have an area somewhat separated from Allanak the city proper, but with chances for interaction along the borders.

I think the possibility is very intriguing and interesting.

[Malken]

I agree with what Intrepid says.. My fear is that a few months after a tavern is built for magickers, any magickers that will try to go elsewhere to chichat with other players will be quickly told to return where he belongs by Templars and Nobles.

Sure, I can dig being told to go *beep* myself by players, because, you shouldn't be all soft and gentle to a magicker, but if a Templar or a Noble decides to keep magickers where they belong, in a little spot in the middle of Allanak, that's no fun at all.

Sure, it'd be a good idea if there would be 6-10 gemmed magickers to rp with at all time during your playing sessions, but my guess is that you'll be lucky if you meet one or two at the tavern. And then what?

I like the possibility of being able to hide your gem, tho. That's a great idea.

[Armaddict]

Uh...the elementalist's quarter isn't isolated.  Anyone needing a gemmed would be know right where to look.  Any gemmed still wanting to venture outside can do so.

This is vastly superior to gemmed just wandering around and pissing off all the fearing hating people just because they're bored and wanting some sort of interaction.

Why is it -error- for the elementalists quarter to be the place for elementalists to be?  I'd much prefer for it to be -mainstream- for elementalists to be in a place where there's lots of role-play for them without them having to deal with constant posts about how bad it is how people are treating mages too good.

I'd much rather -not- have it become mainstream for mages to become all-out accepted, regardless of where, because it removes setbacks that are part of the role of the elementalist. You realize how quickly it would become 'mainstream' for Allanak to have twice as many casters as mundanes?

[ale six]

No to hiding the gem - unless it was a crime punishable by swift death if caught doing so in Allanak. Otherwise, who -wouldn't- hide their gem?

Templars and nobles (and bynners) in Allanak are -already- kicking gemmers out of certain taverns, from what I've seen. They get heckled and hassled out of the Gaj and ordered out of the Trader's. You'd think with such hostile alternatives, a gemmer tavern would be a godsend. They can go there... or get hassled elsewhere, just like they are now.

And by the time this goes in, who knows what the attitude to gemmers in Allanak might be anyway. The HRPT could do a lot to affect that, for better or worse.

[LoD]

You know, the fact that some of you cannot see this coming is astonishing.

As others have mentioned, and to which I alluded, the Elementalist Quarter will become no more of an ISO clan that the 'rinth.  Increased sense of community and player numbers could open up a niche of elementalist-only RP that has only previously existed in patches.  It probably -would- create more tension when an elementalist enters a mundane social center because they would be a rarer sight than in years past.

As for idiots deciding that it was twinkish for an elementalist to be in the city proper, since when are people required to be mature?  Idiots abound, especially in a corrupt and brutal society bred into ignorance by a handful of men and woman that control the flow of information and knowledge.  These types of interactiions are going to happen, sorry.  If the mistreatment of elementalists by common folk of the City grows out of some OOC motivation, then I'm sure the Imms will address the problem.

But the Quarter can be entered by 'rinthers, commoners, soldiers, templars, travellers, and anyone else that happens through the city.  There's nothing isolated about it.  What will likely happen is less magickers will visit the city proper to "hang out".  There will still be people that frequent the bars because they play off peak hours and crave some PC-PC interaction, but it wouldn't nearly as bleak and damning as you portend.  There are others who will enter the City looking for work or to forward some plot of their own that requires mundane assistance.

Id consider laying off the words "fact" and "truth" when referring to events that haven't even come to pass.  There are people interested in seeing this happen, and if it does, then it does -- but there's little need at this point for alarmist reactions to a simple discussion.  The Elementalist Quarter could be a really fun place to play and has a lot of potential, and exploring that potential with a little change is an interesting topic.

-LoD

[Quirk]

- Finally, other players see this and it becomes mainstream.  It's like the word "feck".  Some people are thrilled by it, others aren't, but it gets accepted into the mainstream for better or worse regardless of how much of an error it might be.

I must protest. "Feck" is a perfectly acceptable Irish variation of the word "fuck". Has Father Ted taught us nothing? All my Irish characters in game use "feck" liberally. The others are feckless.

On a more serious note, I'd like to talk about "iso-clans" in the same city.

Imagine, if you will, that Arm were reduced to a single tavern where everyone met. I maintain that this would not be good and glorious, but would instead be uniquely horrible. Imagine the spam from fifty people in the same room. Even with the mercies granted us by hemote, the game would be nearly unplayable.

So, we need to split up the playerbase into smaller groups, and we manage that pretty well (though it's still common enough to see taverns with more than ten PCs in, which is frankly more than I've ever enjoyed RPing round). But then we come to the issue of the restraints people have in their interactions. A House guard isn't going to fall into easy camaraderie with an elf, most people are chary about speaking to magickers, and all sorts of groups may be sufficiently at loggerheads with each other to not be on speaking terms. So, there comes a point where the interaction you're getting from another PC or group of PCs is actually of less value to you than their spam is likely to be a hassle. Yes, once in a blue moon my high-class merchant may want to seek out an elf and speak with him - but the annoyance of being spammed by him in my usual tavern every day wipes out any convenience I've gained by not having to go to a scummier tavern to look for him.  

This is why I believe having the gemmers spending more of their time in the Elementalist Quarter makes sense. On an average day, when I've got no need for a gemmer and a gemmer's got no need for me, if we're sharing the same tavern we'll be mostly spending our time in uncomfortably ignoring one another. When the tavern gets full and the gemmer gets another gemmer to speak to, then I get extra spam I could usually happily do without.

However, if the gemmer is in the Elementalist Quarter, the negative interaction of the spam is removed, and at no real cost to the positive interactions - since any time I do want to see a gemmer, I know where to go. On top of that, I'm not going to be surrounded in there by other mundane PCs who're going to try to convince me that the magicker will eat my brains, generally gum up the meeting, and probably overblow the incident into having some kind of significance it doesn't deserve. Bonus. The only real cost to the positive interactions would be if it took a lot of time and effort to get to the other tavern.

Heck, I'd like to see the Barrel in 'Nak nuked entirely. I'd like a bar for elementalists, a bar for the lower-class (the Gaj), and a bar for the upper-crust (the Traders). And the great bonus would be that you'd only be running into the people you'd ICly be likely to RP with when visiting any of those bars. Everyone would be mingling with people from similar social strata, and if someone who looks out of place wanders in, chances are there's a reason for it.

[Forty Winks]

As with any project that might change an aspect of the game world, it does need alot of planning. Understandably, the elementalist quarter will be isolated from the rest of the city, but ICly, this is a benefit. It also will keep the mystery of magickers down, even if the amount of magick players increases, as people have mentioned earlier.

In terms of OOC, there's the concern that the elementalist quarters will just become another iso-clan. This might be true if things remained as they are currently, but with a developed culture for the gemmed, along with a few counter-measures in place, it can still be kept so elementalists are not kept entirely apart from the rest of the world. After all, the elementalist quarters is -within- the city of allanak.

The rinth, if you look at it like that, is pretty much an isolated place as well, and yet the amount of excitement and intrigue, as well as its involvement with the outside still exists.

If certain measures were taken to ensure that the elementalists within the quarter still maintained contact with the outside, then I would think the problem of isolating that area would be very likely solved.

One way this could happen would be if the elementalist quarters became more of a political arena. Though this may not involve the commoners very much, (which I think is reasonable to expect) it will still involve the various Houses and the templarate.

Also, as Xygax similarly mentioned earlier, with a larger group of magickers together, more magick-related plots could be developed that would be geared more towards magickers and magick.

Of course, as this is a rather large task, such changes would be long-term. Also, this is assuming there is a large enough magicker population for things to work out. But, for the time, I think its fun thinking up things like this on your spare time.  :wink:

[Forty Winks]

Heh, you could remove the Silver Ginka and open up an elementalist tavern. Doesn't seem to be used that greatly from the perspective of my characters.

Aside from that, just thought it would neat to have rogue-magickers vs. gemmed magickers, with an underground battle going around that mundanes don't have much knowledge about. Like a movie.  :wink:  Or some similar interactions like that for mages. Would keep the players busy, for one.  :twisted:

[Cuusardo]

I don't understand this whole concept of giving gemmers on a whole political power.  If a gemmer really wants a semblance of this kind of power, they'll join Oash, or become a templar's personal bitch.

[Lazloth]

I'm still a big proponent of fleshing out gemmed culture.  It can only add to the depth and enjoyability of playing a "collared" mage, which is what this thread is generally after.

Is it?   I read the message in these recent threads as there are too many magickers in the world.  There are vocal camps on both sides of the argument and I haven't heard (it could be I'm dense) that this has been proven true or false.

That aside, I don't think anyone is going to state that forming a more pronounced culture around gemmed elementalists is going to be a bad thing, but I'd anticipate the opposite effect that the loud voices here are pining for - more players will sign up to be collared mages to experience it and a greater chunk of the online playerbase will be running a magicker until the fad dims.

I have agreed with almost everything Intrepid has stated and have held away from echoing redundancies - but I do believe that this will devolve to another [largely] iso situation, and I do think the game suffers from too much segregation and splintered societies.  If fleshing out gemmers is the staff's direction, I believe there will be a strategy behind it and can only hope that interaction between mundane and magickal forces does not disappear altogether.

[Xygax]

I don't understand this whole concept of giving gemmers on a whole political power.  If a gemmer really wants a semblance of this kind of power, they'll join Oash, or become a templar's personal bitch.

I don't think Forty was talking about politics in the sense you mean here, Cuursardo.  I think he was referring to political interaction among the "temples" about the overall governance of those things that already fall under their domain (they probably, for example, exert some control over the elementalists quarter beyond control provided by soldiers and templars -- but from a more mafia-like position).  Perhaps the various temples don't get along well (they likely wouldn't, since their goals and desires are likely to be as at-odds as their elements are), but by virtue of being forced to coexist in the same relatively small chunk of the city they have also over the years architected some sort of heirarchical structure by which they primarily interact.  Think of it as a particularly ruthless and dangerous "homeowner's association," where if you park your kank in the red-zone, the parking enforcement committee might curse your house with three years of impenetrable darkness.

I like this general idea, and I also like the idea of making the elementalists quarter more dangerous for non-elementalists in various ways.  Perhaps soldiers don't patrol there as much, so it's easier for the elementalists to get away with occasionally practicing unfriendly magicks on commoners foolish enough to wander through.  Perhaps the soldiers that do patrol the quarter, are unfriendly to non-gemmers because they themselves are gemmed (how might a grumpy Rukkian handle hauling you off to jail?).

I also think that anything that encourages the magicker community to separate itself from the mundane community is a good thing.  It should be a surprise to see a magicker, and it should be downright crap-your-pants frightening to see some types of magick, even for an Allanaki (seeing a Vivaduan conjure water might be no big deal, but seeing a Whiran vanish into thin air?  Or fire pour from the sky?  Probably harder to stomach.)

I like the idea of adding more ambience to the quarter, also.  As you pace down Vivadu's path, perhaps occasionally you see, off in the distance, through the haze of the dust and filth trapped in the city, a figure plummeting from the top of a tall tower to the north-west.  And as you pass by the temple of Suk-krath, a tongue of flames belches forth from the stone entrance, blackening the road and chasing a shock-shell of scorching hot air ahead of it.  The alleyways are all unnaturally dark, and seem to be filled with shifting shadows and whispering voices, and small, strange creatures scurry across the roads apparently running errands.

-- X

[Intrepid]

Uh...the elementalist's quarter isn't isolated.  Anyone needing a gemmed would be know right where to look.  Any gemmed still wanting to venture outside can do so.

So I just imagined that there is only one way in and out of the elementalist's quarter and that the Senate has had proposals to build a friggin' gate on the one entrance?  Or that some militia recruits have practically pissed themselves at the thought of having to even patrol that quarter, let alone visit it on any regular basis?  This is not even including the fact that it is an extreme rarity for anyone outside of Oash and the Templarate to make any requests of elementalists.

This is vastly superior to gemmed just wandering around and pissing off all the fearing hating people just because they're bored and wanting some sort of interaction.

Main Entry: tol·er·ate
Pronunciation: 'tä-l&-"rAt
Function: transitive verb
Inflected Form(s): -at·ed; -at·ing
Etymology: Latin toleratus, past participle of tolerare to endure, put up with; akin to Old English tholian to bear, Latin tollere to lift up, latus carried (suppletive past participle of ferre), Greek tlEnai to bear
1 : to endure or resist the action of (as a drug or food) without serious side effects or discomfort : exhibit physiological tolerance for
2 a : to allow to be or to be done without prohibition, hindrance, or contradiction b : to put up with <learn to tolerate one another>

Elementalists are tolerated within the city of Allanak.  They're not marked for death.  This is another example of how ridiculously overdone the reaction has become to magickers on Arm.

Why is it -error- for the elementalists quarter to be the place for elementalists to be?  I'd much prefer for it to be -mainstream- for elementalists to be in a place where there's lots of role-play for them without them having to deal with constant posts about how bad it is how people are treating mages too good.

Because players have a long and sordid history of overdoing the portrayal of any and all aspects of the game rather than portraying the material precisely.  It's overcompensation that has just become worse and worse with each passing year, to the point that they're beginning to be phased out of the normal continuity of the game as demonstrated by the above examples rather than being treated as an outsider caste.  If you needed any example as to why some of us would prefer to play a "rogue" magicker, look no further than this situation.

I'd much rather -not- have it become mainstream for mages to become all-out accepted, regardless of where, because it removes setbacks that are part of the role of the elementalist. You realize how quickly it would become 'mainstream' for Allanak to have twice as many casters as mundanes?

Yes, I'm aware you don't want them in with the rest of society--this is the problem.  Once you take them outside of society, they not only lose their social stigma, they lose all contact with the rest of the game and might as well be on an entirely different server.  This is the error with all iso clans--sure, the Tan Muark could technically be "visited", as could the Blackwing, Blackmoon and Conclave.  I don't believe they were anymore conducive to the overall game setting than this is.  Anytime you make a clan, anywhere in the game world, it should exist to enrich the gameworld, not exist as its own game.  The elementalists will eventually be shunned by overzealous players to the point that the quarter will become their only refuge--and the only people who will even see them is the occasional templar and Oash noble.

As I said before, it's a horrendous set of circumstances, and nothing you've said so far has indicated that this isn't what you want.

[Xygax]

Intrepid:  I think even the most isolated of ISO clans enrich the game world by existing, even if many players do not witness them.  It is a mistake to assume that the ripples of even halfling activities don't affect players everywhere.  It's not a bad thing that those clans have rigorously defined cultures and are largely self-sufficient.

The other half of the vision for magickers would of course also require them to seek out mundane PCs for various services, as well.

-- X