The Elementalist Quarters - Present and Future

[Forty Winks]

Thought I would start a thread focused on how the elementalist quarters in Allanak is doing currently, from both players and staff perspectives, and what you would like to happen in the elementalist quarters. Also, as it seems it is a large part of this topic, what other options can be made available to gemmed magickers that may make the experience better than what it is now, or has previously been.

[jcarter]

Things are fine as is. Maybe, MAYBE make a gemmed bar, but that then basically takes away from gemmed interaction with the mundane PC group. After all, what reason does a gemmer have to go hang out in the Gaj when he could go meet up with his buddies at the elementalist bar?

People are blowing a lot of issues out of proportion, and honestly, they're not that big of a deal. Yeah, I had a character get hit by one of those one-hit-you're-out spells from a magicker, and hey, that's life. Suck it up and move on.

[Xygax]

Things are fine as is. Maybe, MAYBE make a gemmed bar, but that then basically takes away from gemmed interaction with the mundane PC group. After all, what reason does a gemmer have to go hang out in the Gaj when he could go meet up with his buddies at the elementalist bar?

I'm not sure this is a bad thing; mages should be segregated, at least to some degree.

-- X

[EvilRoeSlade]

Things are fine as is. Maybe, MAYBE make a gemmed bar, but that then basically takes away from gemmed interaction with the mundane PC group.

What gemmed interaction with the mundane PC group?  I certainly haven't ever seen any.

[jcarter]

I'm not sure this is a bad thing; mages should be segregated, at least to some degree.

Segregated is how things are now. Putting in a tavern is just pretty much going to put an invisible wall up between the elementalist quarter and the rest of the city.

Things are fine as is. Maybe, MAYBE make a gemmed bar, but that then basically takes away from gemmed interaction with the mundane PC group.

What gemmed interaction with the mundane PC group?  I certainly haven't ever seen any.

Join the Allanaki side of the war.

[Xygax]

Segregated is how things are now. Putting in a tavern is just pretty much going to put an invisible wall up between the elementalist quarter and the rest of the city.

Yes.  And?  Again, I fail to see how this is a bad thing.  If the players are going here voluntarily, then they are doing so because they enjoy it (or enjoy it more than the harassment of being in the other taverns), which is a good thing.

-- X

[jcarter]

Segregated is how things are now. Putting in a tavern is just pretty much going to put an invisible wall up between the elementalist quarter and the rest of the city.

Yes.  And?  Again, I fail to see how this is a bad thing.  If the players are going here voluntarily, then they are doing so because they enjoy it (or enjoy it more than the harassment of being in the other taverns), which is a good thing.

-- X

How is it a good thing?

[Kennath]

Segregated is how things are now. Putting in a tavern is just pretty much going to put an invisible wall up between the elementalist quarter and the rest of the city.

Yes.  And?  Again, I fail to see how this is a bad thing.  If the players are going here voluntarily, then they are doing so because they enjoy it (or enjoy it more than the harassment of being in the other taverns), which is a good thing.

-- X

How is it a good thing?

Commoners and magickers are supposed to be seperate, thats why they have their own quarter of the city. It's designed for them to stay away from the public. And mentioned on prior and still occuring threads magick should not be a regular thing for mundane PCs. But -if- a magicker -wanted- to go to the gaj to hang out with you, they could.

-Ken

[Forty Winks]

Taken from a different thread, quoted from a guest.

The balance of armageddon wasn't in the classes itself but that fact that were few PC magickers running around so every second person you met didn't automatically have the ability to kill you or force you to RP fear. Thats changing or could very likely change. More people seem to be playing magickers and guess what now they want to be able to RP in more places with them.

As more people play magickers, and the number of magickers in the PC population rise, what kind of changes will have to take place to keep the 'balance of armageddon' as you say.

For one, making the elementalist quarters a small city in itself may help address this problem, yet, as it is still apart of the game and the rest of the world, the magickers within the quarters will have to interact with mundanes eventually. If and when the elementalist quarters is improved, the influence of gemmed magickers will eventaully spill outside the quarters and affect mundanes. When this occurs, what kind of changes can take place to address this problem, without having to limit or take away from anything?

[edited to add] This is, of course, assuming that the elementalist quarters and the culture of the gemmed elementalists gets adjusted so that it is more appealing to players. Discussing and coming up with ways to address a supposed surplus in gemmed elementalists may be a step to doing this. More solutions and options available to gemmed magickers can only make the gemmed experience more pleasant.

[Ghost]

A quiet tavern will be a step in the right direction.  The tavern will improve the gemmed to gemmed interaction, as well as, if there is anything needed from magickers, you will know where you can find them.

(Too late here.  Hopefully in the morning, I will have time to post more ideas if I can)

[ale six]

Give elementalists more opportunities to gather in groups, more opportunities for employment beyond just Oash. I wrote a long post on this somewhere else, but mainly the idea was to introduce more politics and things into the elementalist quarter, and give mages some ways to gather among themselves, either by making the mage temples into mini-clans or finding some other way to group mages together (maybe gatherings of mages with similar philosophies across different temples).

You could even make a "clan" for elementalists similar to Poet's Circle... a loose collective of people with a common cause (the welfare of mages) split up into separate sects (temples), each of which might have its own rules, elected officials, and culture.

I like the idea that the templarate would trust the mages to effectively self-govern themselves, with each temple keeping its members in line and running things on their own without needing templars to babysit. This way, when a templar needs some mages for whatever mission, he can go to the leader of whichever temple, who will look through the ranks of mages and find a few to send into service.


I don't know, obviously this is all a very rough idea, but I think more organisation in the elemental quarter would open up lots more options.

[Angela Christine]

OMGOMGOMG!!!   I was just looking something up, and realized that THERE IS NO ELEMENTALIST'S QUARTER in Alllanak!  This changes everything!

http://www.armageddon.org/intro/allanak.html

The city itself is divided into six main "quarters" -- The Middle Quarter, the Commoners' Quarter, the Merchants' Quarter, the Nobles' Quarter, the Templars' Quarter, and the Labyrinth. The Middle Quarter contains the bulk of the city -- the elemental temples, the main gate, the Arena, the library, and His Gloriousness Highlord Tektolnes' Holy Temple. The Merchants' Quarter, which will be described in more depth later, contains a large bazaar and various merchant estates within. The Labyrinth is a crumbling network of alleys in the northern end of the city, originally a new merchant district, but has since been abandoned and turned into a haven for the city's thieves and smugglers. The Templars' and Nobles' Quarters, located on the south and east sides of the city, respectively, each contain residences of the city's rulers. Lastly, the Commoners' Quarter contains houses belonging to the city's common people.

The temples are merely contained within the Middle Quarter.  There is no Elementalist's Quarter.  There never was.   :shock:



Angela Christine

[Yokunama]

Thought I would start a thread focused on how the elementalist quarters in Allanak is doing currently, from both players and staff perspectives, and what you would like to happen in the elementalist quarters. Also, as it seems it is a large part of this topic, what other options can be made available to gemmed magickers that may make the experience better than what it is now, or has previously been.

I was once in the middle of getting a tavern built in the quarter, sadly the PC died before anything got off the ground.

[Delirium]

Reposted from other thread:

Yeah, ideally there should be more things for players of mages to do that don't so much involve interaction with non-mages.

-- X

X - some ideas for self-sustainability off the top of my head:

:arrow:  NPCs that will buy things created by mages (vivaduans, rukkians, a certain Krathi spell that branches fairly early).  If component craftables are sellable to NPCs in the Quarter - great, if not, need that too.

A food shop, a water shop (both tied in with previous idea).  

A stone shop (near the Rukkian temple of course!), some more "mundane" clothing merchants, shops to give PC mages the supplies they might need for their subguilds, as well as places to sell the things they create.

A few more tables and someone that sells drinks at that shady area in the plaza.  Having that spot in the plaza be quittable would be a plus but not as necessary.

A rumorboard specific for the elementalist's quarter.


:arrow:  Ideas to boost PC interaction:

The rumorboard would go a long way, as would a place easier to congregate in (i.e. more tables and such at that plaza).  

The rumorboard could have a "what you know" for each temple - notable personas, general relationships between the temples, guidelines, etc.

Immortals could give a little boost to the area by delegating someone to help oversee the Quarter and run some plots - for a totally cliche example perhaps a few Krathi students are persuing some arcane goal and the Drovian temple is out to sabotage them because their success would rupture a delicate experiment of the shadow mages.  Success/Failure of either could depend on some PC efforts and actions.

Stuff that gives gemmed something to strive for, a culture to feel a part of, a base to work off of rather than a mostly empty temple, some NPCs, and a plaza that looks really neat but is rarely visited by other PCs.  Things to keep them entertained, feeling useful, give them the ability to make a living with both mage or mundane abilities without having to greb salt, mine obsidian, or venture much into the "mundane" city.

The occasional mage might still wander out - those who want employment with Oash, those who want to try their luck out the gates, those who need a certain component and have to hire a hunter to go find it.  However, self-sustained would mean far more self-contained.

***

That said:  I don't really want to see gemmed mages turn into another iso-clan.

[Lavalamps (Not logged in)]

Even though I posted earlier that this might dilute the population, I've reconsidered and I think these ideas will be good. The magicker quarter is  a place for magickers, for them to live... and the code should reflect that.
A tavern, shops, food/water sellers... keep it pretty small, but make it so that it can sustain PCs comfortably.
Also, dunno if this is good or not... but a gate into the quarter that only people with gems can go in and out of?

[Yokunama]

A stone shop (near the Rukkian temple of course!), some more "mundane" clothing merchants, shops to give PC mages the supplies they might need for their subguilds, as well as places to sell the things they create.

Whats wrong with the shops everyone else use?
The best suppliers and buyers come from the PC population. Even with a gemmed magicker, I once had a character that managed to obtain a great sum of money, marketing merchandise off to the mundane. The character only sold a handful of items to the NPC merchants. If you are good enough, you can manage to obtain some business relationships with some of the houses. :twisted:

I wish there were more 'common uses' for magickers, instead of having them locked away in their temples casting all day. Surely, the templars and nobles could have some uses for them, instead of killing them off.

[Intrepid]

Yes.  And?  Again, I fail to see how this is a bad thing.  If the players are going here voluntarily, then they are doing so because they enjoy it (or enjoy it more than the harassment of being in the other taverns), which is a good thing.

I do see it as a bad thing.  A very bad thing, actually.  If you can look at any setting in this entire game and realize that most of the interaction might as well be on its own server, then that group has failed to become part of the larger game or, worse has been pushed into a compartment by the rest of the playerbase.

Blackwing and Tan Muark were considered legendary, but I must say from personal experience, the very few interactions I had with them back when those clans were considered iso were lackluster--despite the fact that these were supposed to be the paragons of rp.  They sought nothing and gained little to nothing from the rest of the Known World, and you need interaction to have intrigue.  Anything else is a waste of presence that could be better utilized as characters that are part of the rest of the game setting.

Out of sight, out of mind, basically.

[spawnloser]

I wouldn't mind seeing something like this.  In recent past, I've seen a few gemmed mages go rogue, and this would give them something to do beyond that.  It would give them a social group, which is the bigger thing to keeping mages doing what they do without having to do it aggressively to every passerby on their spot of the road or what have you.

On the note of magickers getting work from others?  I don't get it.  I seem to recall Tor hiring some battlemages at one time...when I played a Salarri, I was told that Salarr hires magickers.  They don't, though, not in practice.  Hell, I tried when playing a rukkian once...the Tors acted like magick-hating Borsail and the Salarri just kinda brushed me off.

I dunno, I think this would cut down on the bitching people make about all the rogue magickers and how the game is ruined because there's so much magick.  This would give the magickers something to (voluntarily) do that would involve not going the way of the rogue.

Editted to add: Interaction doesn't have to mean as a group, though.  You can have interaction because that one rogue is out there...but you know where to find magickers in the Elementalist Quarter now, because you can timidly scamper your ass into the bar there and ask for help from these other loyal citizens of Nak to remove a rogue (and some may be happy to do that, because rogues give the rest of them a bad name).

[Malken]

I just don't like the fact that we're just trying to add small "ISO clans" everywhere.. There's already plenty of them so far, and instead of trying to separate groups of players from the main one, I think we should try and find ways to allow them to participate with the other players without changing too much the "feeling" of Armageddon.

[Anonymous kank with wings]

Commoners and magickers are supposed to be seperate, thats why they have their own quarter of the city. It's designed for them to stay away from the public. And mentioned on prior and still occuring threads magick should not be a regular thing for mundane PCs. But -if- a magicker -wanted- to go to the gaj to hang out with you, they could.

-Ken

Why not just create MagickerMud, consisting of the Elementalist's Quarter, and run it separately from Armaggedon. It sounds like this would fit what you want perfectly.

[Anonymous kank with wings]

Ok, bad choice of quotes. I'd erase the above message but anonymous kanks can't do that, even if they have wings.  :oops:

[ale six]

Maybe anonymous kanks with wingses should make themselves accounts!

/derail

[ThirdEye]

I was once in the middle of getting a tavern built in the quarter, sadly the PC died before anything got off the ground.

Me too.

[Cuusardo]

Think of it from the point of view of the people who run Allanak:

We already let those gemmed fucks live here, AND gave them their own part of the city.  Why the hell should we give them anything else?  We don't owe them anything; they owe US simply for letting them live.

[Forty Winks]

I just don't like the fact that we're just trying to add small "ISO clans" everywhere.. There's already plenty of them so far, and instead of trying to separate groups of players from the main one, I think we should try and find ways to allow them to participate with the other players without changing too much the "feeling" of Armageddon.

The purpose for the elementalist quarters was to keep magickers seperate from the common populace, which is both NPC and PC. By making the elementalist quarters a more popular idea for elementalist players will allow them to both have interaction with other players, and not be in places that would be considered rare for magickers to be. (such as the wilds  :roll: ). It solves two problems at once, without having to restrict karma or any such thing. Of course, this would only apply if the elementalist quarter and its culture sees some improvement, as was the purpose of this thread. As there is enough criticism available already, please offer more constructive feedback, otherwise start a different thread.

[Forty Winks]

Think of it from the point of view of the people who run Allanak:

We already let those gemmed fucks live here, AND gave them their own part of the city.  Why the hell should we give them anything else?  We don't owe them anything; they owe US simply for letting them live.

If this example is to reason that there shouldn't be shops and stalls for magickers in the elementalist quarters, it's not very convincing.  :wink:  For one, what would be wrong with people who were merchants and shop owners previously, but have come to realize their abilities? They have the option to either keep this a secret, and live in fear, or to pack up and market to a different group of people who may have similar problems. Giving the quarters a few shops for the more regular needs to live such as a grocer and other accessories, along with a place to congregate for marketing and trade, will add more to gemmed interaction, as magickers can now put their subguilds into play without having to leave the quarters.

[Forty Winks]

Commoners and magickers are supposed to be seperate, thats why they have their own quarter of the city. It's designed for them to stay away from the public. And mentioned on prior and still occuring threads magick should not be a regular thing for mundane PCs. But -if- a magicker -wanted- to go to the gaj to hang out with you, they could.

-Ken

Why not just create MagickerMud, consisting of the Elementalist's Quarter, and run it separately from Armaggedon. It sounds like this would fit what you want perfectly.

If changes were made to the elementalist quarter that made it a more appealing place for players, inevitably the players will likely be kept seperate from the rest of the populace. Despite this, I wouldn't think it would detract from the playing experience and balance of the gameworld, rather enhancing it. With more elementalist PCs together, more plots and quests will be started where otherwise it may not have been possible. Whether this is a good thing or not I couldn't say currently, as it takes into account whether there are enough magicker-related quests going on now or not.  :roll:

[Forty Winks]

Oh, one thing I would like to see in the elementalist quarters is politics, both inter-quarter politics between temples, as well as politics outside the quarters between templars and perhaps certain Houses. Of course, for something like this to even get started would require both a gemmed PC population, as well as the culture or crisis to begin it.  :wink:

[Armaddict]

I like this thread.

Very pro-elementalist-quarter role-play.  I actually have always kind of wanted to see more of inter-elemental struggle as was hinted at in helpfiles.

And this -does- address the problems I had.  It provides a niche so that gemmed mages don't have to go searching in the mainstream for one.

[marko]

I believe that there should be some sort of temple elementalist immortal or two to assist in developing the temples into organizations that vie for power and prestige within the echelons of Allanak that allow them to.  

Whenever the temples are involved in plots and there are temple leaders around that really adds to the feel of gemmed magickers.  People realize there are other organizations that exist that aren't House Oash or working direct for a templar.

[Morfeus]

Last time I played a gemmer it was impossible to buy a food within the Quarter. I am not sure if this changed already or not, but back then, it was a bit annoying. I guess tavern would solve this. Other than that, I don't think a tavern is necessary, because if there is a group of PC gemmers which want to meet, they easily meet in places within the Quarter even without any tavern. At least, when I last played there, there was at least one "usual" meeting point for all gemmers. But well, that is lot of months ago.

[Bebop]

Magickers are supposed to be segregated (sp?  don't have time to check) Anyway ...

I think the Gemmed Quarter should include a tavern, more shops, food and water.  They should never have to leave that Quarter and they should only be interacting with their own kind.  I think in reality most gemmers would not be frequenting normal people's watering holes without half clearing the place out.

[LoD]

The notion of adding a bit of functionality to the elementalist quarter creating an ISO clan is silly.  The quarter is part of the city.  It is accessible by anyone wanting to ventiure into what should be a fairly intimidating and scary place for those that don't belong -- just like the 'rinth.

It is completely different from clans such as the Blackwing, Tan Muark, Conclave, Blackmoon, or any other clan that is neigh unapproachable.  Those clans are isolated not only by language and culture, but by geography.  Elementalists could still choose to venture forth into the city proper should they be interested in using their powers for someone, but they shouldn't be forced to leave that environment if they do not wish it.

Some things this might improve:

RP Environment for Elementalists

Elementalists would have a better sense of community and more interaction between members of different temples if they shared a common source of food/water/socialization.  This interaction could lead to interesting discussions, ideas, feuds, rivalries, and other RP that I imagine is made more difficult without a neutral place to congregate.

This would also provide an IC location for mages to relax and socialize for an escape from the casting at their temples.  I know that I've felt pinned into my guild's temple because my other choices were a mundane tavern where some random templar, soldier, or noble guard might choose to have me thrown in the Arena.  If I'd been able to check a place frequented by elementalists, I might've found a lot more RP opportunities available to me.

Sense of Mystery

Some element of mystery might be returned to the game if the Barrel ceases to have 1-4 mages seated at the bar.  The common shops might begin to see less of these gemmed folk wander their way, and the city at large may actually grow to be a little more fearful when they see a mage because their lack of presence has increased the mystery behind them.

Atmosphere and Approachability

If the lack of elementalists frequenting mundane shops/bars increases even some of the mystery that should hand in hand with their presence, then I believe some of that will transfer to the area in which they live.  Walking along those streets might seem a bit more frightening because the average person may not see a magicker nearly as often.

This would also give people who want to approach elementalists (i.e. templars, soldiers, employers, etc...) a central location to make their desires known.  Announcements aimed at the elementalist community could be made via the rumor boards, and PC's might have a better chance of finding someone not engaged in cast/resting deep within an inaccessible temple.

On a completely different subject:

Hiding Gems

I'd really like to see the ability to hide one's gem with an article of clothing.  Somewhat akin to the raise hood, lower hood, perhaps a command that would transfer a cover and uncover a wear location if the person happened to be wearing something like a cape, cloak, shawl, scarf, etc...

Anyone with peek would still have a chance to see the gem, and of course there would be severe punishments if a gemmed magicker was found hiding their gem within the city-state.  This would allow them to hide their gem while travelling outside of the city-state, and provide some of them with the freedom to do things they think only possible because the gem is ever-present.  Unless there's an IC reason of which I'm not aware, there shouldn't be an IC reason why the gem couldn't be easily concealed or obscured to mundane eyes.

-LoD

[jhunter]

Hiding Gems

I'd really like to see the ability to hide one's gem with an article of clothing. Somewhat akin to the raise hood, lower hood, perhaps a command that would transfer a cover and uncover a wear location if the person happened to be wearing something like a cape, cloak, shawl, scarf, etc...

Anyone with peek would still have a chance to see the gem, and of course there would be severe punishments if a gemmed magicker was found hiding their gem within the city-state. This would allow them to hide their gem while travelling outside of the city-state, and provide some of them with the freedom to do things they think only possible because the gem is ever-present. Unless there's an IC reason of which I'm not aware, there shouldn't be an IC reason why the gem couldn't be easily concealed or obscured to mundane eyes.

I so totally agree with this.

[Delirium]

I just don't like the fact that we're just trying to add small "ISO clans" everywhere.. There's already plenty of them so far, and instead of trying to separate groups of players from the main one, I think we should try and find ways to allow them to participate with the other players without changing too much the "feeling" of Armageddon.

I think he does have a point.

However, I'm still a big proponent of fleshing out gemmed culture.  It can only add to the depth and enjoyability of playing a "collared" mage, which is what this thread is generally after.  Since the Quarter is right in the city, it still gives them a chance to come out and mingle with the rest of the playerbase.

[Intrepid]

You know, the fact that some of you cannot see this coming is astonishing.

Yes, this is the beginning of an iso-clan.  Let me explain:

- First, the elementalist quarter is made self-sufficient.
- Next, elementalist do, by design, flock there to interact with each other.
- Then, some idiot in a tavern gets the notion that, because all the other elementalists are in the quarter, that it must somehow be twinkish for an elementalist to be outside the elementalist's quarter.
- Finally, other players see this and it becomes mainstream.  It's like the word "feck".  Some people are thrilled by it, others aren't, but it gets accepted into the mainstream for better or worse regardless of how much of an error it might be.

Don't think it will happen?  Of course it will.  Just in recent months I've seen an elf get dumped on for being in the Bard's Barrel, when an elf npc is sitting right there in the desc.

As for other iso clans:

:arrow: Blackwing and Tan Muark were placed in areas that are inaccessible; I've always believed this to be a mistake in design and a holdover from the old days.  There are numerous problems with both of these clans that I couldn't even get into on a public discussion board due to the ic sensitivity of the topic.
:arrow: Blackmoon was only partly iso; it was a raiding clan that needed to hide between raids, so I can certainly forgive them for that.
:arrow: The Conclave made a bad choice in being iso and was shut down for it; I still maintain that this clan could have joined the rest of the Known World successfully if there had been some cooperation between the imms and the players.

[Cuusardo]

The gems are all about control over these people, because if no one controls them, they are going to cause problems.  Seriously, play a gemmed PC that tries to organize a fundraiser to build a tavern, or more shops in the Quarter and see what happens.

[Jherlen]

Essentially the Elementalist Quarter would become another "red light" district. The people around there wouldn't visit the rest of the city much, and the people in the city would not often visit the Elementalist Quarter, unless they thought they needed something that a mage could provide. But you wouldn't have an iso clan any more than the 'rinth is an iso clan... you would just have an area somewhat separated from Allanak the city proper, but with chances for interaction along the borders.

I think the possibility is very intriguing and interesting.

[Malken]

I agree with what Intrepid says.. My fear is that a few months after a tavern is built for magickers, any magickers that will try to go elsewhere to chichat with other players will be quickly told to return where he belongs by Templars and Nobles.

Sure, I can dig being told to go *beep* myself by players, because, you shouldn't be all soft and gentle to a magicker, but if a Templar or a Noble decides to keep magickers where they belong, in a little spot in the middle of Allanak, that's no fun at all.

Sure, it'd be a good idea if there would be 6-10 gemmed magickers to rp with at all time during your playing sessions, but my guess is that you'll be lucky if you meet one or two at the tavern. And then what?

I like the possibility of being able to hide your gem, tho. That's a great idea.

[Armaddict]

Uh...the elementalist's quarter isn't isolated.  Anyone needing a gemmed would be know right where to look.  Any gemmed still wanting to venture outside can do so.

This is vastly superior to gemmed just wandering around and pissing off all the fearing hating people just because they're bored and wanting some sort of interaction.

Why is it -error- for the elementalists quarter to be the place for elementalists to be?  I'd much prefer for it to be -mainstream- for elementalists to be in a place where there's lots of role-play for them without them having to deal with constant posts about how bad it is how people are treating mages too good.

I'd much rather -not- have it become mainstream for mages to become all-out accepted, regardless of where, because it removes setbacks that are part of the role of the elementalist. You realize how quickly it would become 'mainstream' for Allanak to have twice as many casters as mundanes?

[ale six]

No to hiding the gem - unless it was a crime punishable by swift death if caught doing so in Allanak. Otherwise, who -wouldn't- hide their gem?

Templars and nobles (and bynners) in Allanak are -already- kicking gemmers out of certain taverns, from what I've seen. They get heckled and hassled out of the Gaj and ordered out of the Trader's. You'd think with such hostile alternatives, a gemmer tavern would be a godsend. They can go there... or get hassled elsewhere, just like they are now.

And by the time this goes in, who knows what the attitude to gemmers in Allanak might be anyway. The HRPT could do a lot to affect that, for better or worse.

[LoD]

You know, the fact that some of you cannot see this coming is astonishing.

As others have mentioned, and to which I alluded, the Elementalist Quarter will become no more of an ISO clan that the 'rinth.  Increased sense of community and player numbers could open up a niche of elementalist-only RP that has only previously existed in patches.  It probably -would- create more tension when an elementalist enters a mundane social center because they would be a rarer sight than in years past.

As for idiots deciding that it was twinkish for an elementalist to be in the city proper, since when are people required to be mature?  Idiots abound, especially in a corrupt and brutal society bred into ignorance by a handful of men and woman that control the flow of information and knowledge.  These types of interactiions are going to happen, sorry.  If the mistreatment of elementalists by common folk of the City grows out of some OOC motivation, then I'm sure the Imms will address the problem.

But the Quarter can be entered by 'rinthers, commoners, soldiers, templars, travellers, and anyone else that happens through the city.  There's nothing isolated about it.  What will likely happen is less magickers will visit the city proper to "hang out".  There will still be people that frequent the bars because they play off peak hours and crave some PC-PC interaction, but it wouldn't nearly as bleak and damning as you portend.  There are others who will enter the City looking for work or to forward some plot of their own that requires mundane assistance.

Id consider laying off the words "fact" and "truth" when referring to events that haven't even come to pass.  There are people interested in seeing this happen, and if it does, then it does -- but there's little need at this point for alarmist reactions to a simple discussion.  The Elementalist Quarter could be a really fun place to play and has a lot of potential, and exploring that potential with a little change is an interesting topic.

-LoD

[Quirk]

- Finally, other players see this and it becomes mainstream.  It's like the word "feck".  Some people are thrilled by it, others aren't, but it gets accepted into the mainstream for better or worse regardless of how much of an error it might be.

I must protest. "Feck" is a perfectly acceptable Irish variation of the word "fuck". Has Father Ted taught us nothing? All my Irish characters in game use "feck" liberally. The others are feckless.

On a more serious note, I'd like to talk about "iso-clans" in the same city.

Imagine, if you will, that Arm were reduced to a single tavern where everyone met. I maintain that this would not be good and glorious, but would instead be uniquely horrible. Imagine the spam from fifty people in the same room. Even with the mercies granted us by hemote, the game would be nearly unplayable.

So, we need to split up the playerbase into smaller groups, and we manage that pretty well (though it's still common enough to see taverns with more than ten PCs in, which is frankly more than I've ever enjoyed RPing round). But then we come to the issue of the restraints people have in their interactions. A House guard isn't going to fall into easy camaraderie with an elf, most people are chary about speaking to magickers, and all sorts of groups may be sufficiently at loggerheads with each other to not be on speaking terms. So, there comes a point where the interaction you're getting from another PC or group of PCs is actually of less value to you than their spam is likely to be a hassle. Yes, once in a blue moon my high-class merchant may want to seek out an elf and speak with him - but the annoyance of being spammed by him in my usual tavern every day wipes out any convenience I've gained by not having to go to a scummier tavern to look for him.  

This is why I believe having the gemmers spending more of their time in the Elementalist Quarter makes sense. On an average day, when I've got no need for a gemmer and a gemmer's got no need for me, if we're sharing the same tavern we'll be mostly spending our time in uncomfortably ignoring one another. When the tavern gets full and the gemmer gets another gemmer to speak to, then I get extra spam I could usually happily do without.

However, if the gemmer is in the Elementalist Quarter, the negative interaction of the spam is removed, and at no real cost to the positive interactions - since any time I do want to see a gemmer, I know where to go. On top of that, I'm not going to be surrounded in there by other mundane PCs who're going to try to convince me that the magicker will eat my brains, generally gum up the meeting, and probably overblow the incident into having some kind of significance it doesn't deserve. Bonus. The only real cost to the positive interactions would be if it took a lot of time and effort to get to the other tavern.

Heck, I'd like to see the Barrel in 'Nak nuked entirely. I'd like a bar for elementalists, a bar for the lower-class (the Gaj), and a bar for the upper-crust (the Traders). And the great bonus would be that you'd only be running into the people you'd ICly be likely to RP with when visiting any of those bars. Everyone would be mingling with people from similar social strata, and if someone who looks out of place wanders in, chances are there's a reason for it.

[Forty Winks]

As with any project that might change an aspect of the game world, it does need alot of planning. Understandably, the elementalist quarter will be isolated from the rest of the city, but ICly, this is a benefit. It also will keep the mystery of magickers down, even if the amount of magick players increases, as people have mentioned earlier.

In terms of OOC, there's the concern that the elementalist quarters will just become another iso-clan. This might be true if things remained as they are currently, but with a developed culture for the gemmed, along with a few counter-measures in place, it can still be kept so elementalists are not kept entirely apart from the rest of the world. After all, the elementalist quarters is -within- the city of allanak.

The rinth, if you look at it like that, is pretty much an isolated place as well, and yet the amount of excitement and intrigue, as well as its involvement with the outside still exists.

If certain measures were taken to ensure that the elementalists within the quarter still maintained contact with the outside, then I would think the problem of isolating that area would be very likely solved.

One way this could happen would be if the elementalist quarters became more of a political arena. Though this may not involve the commoners very much, (which I think is reasonable to expect) it will still involve the various Houses and the templarate.

Also, as Xygax similarly mentioned earlier, with a larger group of magickers together, more magick-related plots could be developed that would be geared more towards magickers and magick.

Of course, as this is a rather large task, such changes would be long-term. Also, this is assuming there is a large enough magicker population for things to work out. But, for the time, I think its fun thinking up things like this on your spare time.  :wink:

[Forty Winks]

Heh, you could remove the Silver Ginka and open up an elementalist tavern. Doesn't seem to be used that greatly from the perspective of my characters.

Aside from that, just thought it would neat to have rogue-magickers vs. gemmed magickers, with an underground battle going around that mundanes don't have much knowledge about. Like a movie.  :wink:  Or some similar interactions like that for mages. Would keep the players busy, for one.  :twisted:

[Cuusardo]

I don't understand this whole concept of giving gemmers on a whole political power.  If a gemmer really wants a semblance of this kind of power, they'll join Oash, or become a templar's personal bitch.

[Lazloth]

I'm still a big proponent of fleshing out gemmed culture.  It can only add to the depth and enjoyability of playing a "collared" mage, which is what this thread is generally after.

Is it?   I read the message in these recent threads as there are too many magickers in the world.  There are vocal camps on both sides of the argument and I haven't heard (it could be I'm dense) that this has been proven true or false.

That aside, I don't think anyone is going to state that forming a more pronounced culture around gemmed elementalists is going to be a bad thing, but I'd anticipate the opposite effect that the loud voices here are pining for - more players will sign up to be collared mages to experience it and a greater chunk of the online playerbase will be running a magicker until the fad dims.

I have agreed with almost everything Intrepid has stated and have held away from echoing redundancies - but I do believe that this will devolve to another [largely] iso situation, and I do think the game suffers from too much segregation and splintered societies.  If fleshing out gemmers is the staff's direction, I believe there will be a strategy behind it and can only hope that interaction between mundane and magickal forces does not disappear altogether.

[Xygax]

I don't understand this whole concept of giving gemmers on a whole political power.  If a gemmer really wants a semblance of this kind of power, they'll join Oash, or become a templar's personal bitch.

I don't think Forty was talking about politics in the sense you mean here, Cuursardo.  I think he was referring to political interaction among the "temples" about the overall governance of those things that already fall under their domain (they probably, for example, exert some control over the elementalists quarter beyond control provided by soldiers and templars -- but from a more mafia-like position).  Perhaps the various temples don't get along well (they likely wouldn't, since their goals and desires are likely to be as at-odds as their elements are), but by virtue of being forced to coexist in the same relatively small chunk of the city they have also over the years architected some sort of heirarchical structure by which they primarily interact.  Think of it as a particularly ruthless and dangerous "homeowner's association," where if you park your kank in the red-zone, the parking enforcement committee might curse your house with three years of impenetrable darkness.

I like this general idea, and I also like the idea of making the elementalists quarter more dangerous for non-elementalists in various ways.  Perhaps soldiers don't patrol there as much, so it's easier for the elementalists to get away with occasionally practicing unfriendly magicks on commoners foolish enough to wander through.  Perhaps the soldiers that do patrol the quarter, are unfriendly to non-gemmers because they themselves are gemmed (how might a grumpy Rukkian handle hauling you off to jail?).

I also think that anything that encourages the magicker community to separate itself from the mundane community is a good thing.  It should be a surprise to see a magicker, and it should be downright crap-your-pants frightening to see some types of magick, even for an Allanaki (seeing a Vivaduan conjure water might be no big deal, but seeing a Whiran vanish into thin air?  Or fire pour from the sky?  Probably harder to stomach.)

I like the idea of adding more ambience to the quarter, also.  As you pace down Vivadu's path, perhaps occasionally you see, off in the distance, through the haze of the dust and filth trapped in the city, a figure plummeting from the top of a tall tower to the north-west.  And as you pass by the temple of Suk-krath, a tongue of flames belches forth from the stone entrance, blackening the road and chasing a shock-shell of scorching hot air ahead of it.  The alleyways are all unnaturally dark, and seem to be filled with shifting shadows and whispering voices, and small, strange creatures scurry across the roads apparently running errands.

-- X

[Intrepid]

Uh...the elementalist's quarter isn't isolated.  Anyone needing a gemmed would be know right where to look.  Any gemmed still wanting to venture outside can do so.

So I just imagined that there is only one way in and out of the elementalist's quarter and that the Senate has had proposals to build a friggin' gate on the one entrance?  Or that some militia recruits have practically pissed themselves at the thought of having to even patrol that quarter, let alone visit it on any regular basis?  This is not even including the fact that it is an extreme rarity for anyone outside of Oash and the Templarate to make any requests of elementalists.

This is vastly superior to gemmed just wandering around and pissing off all the fearing hating people just because they're bored and wanting some sort of interaction.

Main Entry: tol·er·ate
Pronunciation: 'tä-l&-"rAt
Function: transitive verb
Inflected Form(s): -at·ed; -at·ing
Etymology: Latin toleratus, past participle of tolerare to endure, put up with; akin to Old English tholian to bear, Latin tollere to lift up, latus carried (suppletive past participle of ferre), Greek tlEnai to bear
1 : to endure or resist the action of (as a drug or food) without serious side effects or discomfort : exhibit physiological tolerance for
2 a : to allow to be or to be done without prohibition, hindrance, or contradiction b : to put up with <learn to tolerate one another>

Elementalists are tolerated within the city of Allanak.  They're not marked for death.  This is another example of how ridiculously overdone the reaction has become to magickers on Arm.

Why is it -error- for the elementalists quarter to be the place for elementalists to be?  I'd much prefer for it to be -mainstream- for elementalists to be in a place where there's lots of role-play for them without them having to deal with constant posts about how bad it is how people are treating mages too good.

Because players have a long and sordid history of overdoing the portrayal of any and all aspects of the game rather than portraying the material precisely.  It's overcompensation that has just become worse and worse with each passing year, to the point that they're beginning to be phased out of the normal continuity of the game as demonstrated by the above examples rather than being treated as an outsider caste.  If you needed any example as to why some of us would prefer to play a "rogue" magicker, look no further than this situation.

I'd much rather -not- have it become mainstream for mages to become all-out accepted, regardless of where, because it removes setbacks that are part of the role of the elementalist. You realize how quickly it would become 'mainstream' for Allanak to have twice as many casters as mundanes?

Yes, I'm aware you don't want them in with the rest of society--this is the problem.  Once you take them outside of society, they not only lose their social stigma, they lose all contact with the rest of the game and might as well be on an entirely different server.  This is the error with all iso clans--sure, the Tan Muark could technically be "visited", as could the Blackwing, Blackmoon and Conclave.  I don't believe they were anymore conducive to the overall game setting than this is.  Anytime you make a clan, anywhere in the game world, it should exist to enrich the gameworld, not exist as its own game.  The elementalists will eventually be shunned by overzealous players to the point that the quarter will become their only refuge--and the only people who will even see them is the occasional templar and Oash noble.

As I said before, it's a horrendous set of circumstances, and nothing you've said so far has indicated that this isn't what you want.

[Xygax]

Intrepid:  I think even the most isolated of ISO clans enrich the game world by existing, even if many players do not witness them.  It is a mistake to assume that the ripples of even halfling activities don't affect players everywhere.  It's not a bad thing that those clans have rigorously defined cultures and are largely self-sufficient.

The other half of the vision for magickers would of course also require them to seek out mundane PCs for various services, as well.

-- X

[The7DeadlyVenomz]

Fuck yes, X.

DO it. Do it! Let me help! DO it!

[Intrepid]

Intrepid:  I think even the most isolated of ISO clans enrich the game world by existing, even if many players do not witness them.  It is a mistake to assume that the ripples of even halfling activities don't affect players everywhere.  It's not a bad thing that those clans have rigorously defined cultures and are largely self-sufficient.

It's not the definition of cultures I have issue with; in fact, I encourage definition.  But definition often is found more in limitations, and a couple of the old iso clans quite literally seemed to have no need for anyone.  When you have no need for the people around you, you have no incentive to interact.  This incentive becomes exponential when you think/know that everyone nearby is out to get you.  To take the halfling example, the ripples you refer to may never be witnessed outside of a very few people--assuming they aren't killed and eaten--and will not support the sense of cross-culture and intrigue; they're not really giving back to the game in any way that can be identified by a player.

The other half of the vision for magickers would of course also require them to seek out mundane PCs for various services, as well.

This is another point where I believe the model breaks down.  Elementalists are first perceived as belonging solely in their quarter and are kicked out of taverns.  Shops are next, with pc merchants claiming it is borderline twinkish to even talk to these outcasts.  Already, at least one player has suggested that mundane shops be added to the Elementalist's Quarter, guaranteeing that this place becomes its own mini city.  The final step to make this complete is for elementalists to begin making crafter subclasses more often because the players become frustrated at being shut down by pc (and possibly even npc, depending on how far this goes) merchants just because of the perception that they only belong in the Elementalist's Quarter.

What ends up happening, in the end, is that rogue magickers will continue to flourish no matter how much karma they end up requiring and we eventually have an iso clan right in the middle of Allanak.

Given the recent past history of the playerbase and the general trend that everything is moving toward, I don't see how this inevitable conclusion can be prevented--or that most of the vocal playerbase on the gdb would want anything else.

[Xygax]

I like to think that we as the staff have done a pretty good job of stemming the sort of cultural "slide" you're referring to, so I don't find the slippery-slope argument compelling or convincing.  If you disagree with me and can offer specific examples, please send them to me via e-mail.  The examples I've seen cited on this and the other thread thusfar have been anecdotal examples of a particular player or room-full of players acting either on their own, or in a small mob.  Those aren't great examples to me, because a particular solo player may well have a special loathing for magickers (or may be played badly), and it is very easy (and ICly believable) to be drawn into a mob like that.

Even if you're right, I'd rather slide more toward elementalists being isolated than accepted and integrated.  It remains one of the best factors in limiting what would otherwise be an overwhelmingly powerful set of classes that experienced no cultural or coded drawbacks, and enjoys an arguably large overall PC population.  Conflict is good, segregation is conflict (as long as you can make the segregated people on both sides need interaction with the other side).

-- X

[bloodfromstone]

I honestly think you're blowing the idea out of porportion. Personally, I hate Iso clans. With a burning, heated passion, I do hate them. But I don't think making the Elementist Quarter more self-suffiecent while expanding on the roles of gemmers in game is anything like an Iso clan. What it is is encouraging the idea of magickers being special and different. Rather than hanging out at them at the bar, their interactions will be business and intrigue. Instead of playing Tek's Tower with your neighborhood Drovian, he would be seen as more of a tool, which is exactly how the Allanaki public is supposed to see gemmers.

If the sole idea being communicated here was blocking off the Elementalists Quarters and giving them shops and water, I would dislike it. But the other ideas combined with this could make things really cool, interesting, and much more like what the game world is supposed to be.

[LoD]

Given the recent past history of the playerbase and the general trend that everything is moving toward, I don't see how this inevitable conclusion can be prevented--or that most of the vocal playerbase on the gdb would want anything else.

The arguement that an improved Elemental Quarter will give mages no reason to leave its walls while simultaneously whipping the mundane populace into a general frenzy over the presence of magickers anywhere outside said Quarter is an extreme and pessimistic outlook.

We have an entire city-state (Allanak) that has food, shops, and trade goods that can be purchased all within its walls.  That has not stopped countless people from leaving to hunt, trade, travel, and explore opportunities outside of their microcosm.  This model is tried and true with decades of evidence pointing toward its success.

What does not work, as evidenced by the Blackwing and Muark, is when you create an entire society that has no disadvantages.  Protected lands to hunt, food, water, tolerance to almost any guild choice, fun toys, Immortal attention -- it discourages players from seeking these things outside of their own world.

Here are a few concepts for why magickers might still need to interact:

Accumulation of Wealth

I'm assuming most stores and shops built within the Elementalist Quarter would not be giving away their products.  People need money.  Food, water, clothing - it's not free.  You may be able to convince some of the elementalists to make you some free water if they happen to be around and feeling generous, but there are going to be times when you are forced to pay for the things your character wants.  Greed and a pursuit of wealth is always a motivating factor for people to leave the safe confines of their environment (i.e. walled city, outpost, village, estate).

Use of their Talents

What good are magickal talents without an eventful use for them.  Rangers and Warriors often leave the city for no other reason than to practice their skills in an appropriate environment.  They hunt so they can feed themselves, buy armor and weapons, supplies, have relationships, pay for apartments, get drunk on Yochem -- magickers are still people.  They have feelings, wants, desires, needs that will not be fulfilled by sitting in the Quarter.

Personal Ambition

So merchants are the only ones who can dream of being wealthy or influential?  Warriosr are the only ones who dream for glory?  Rangers are the only ones that dream of...people not saying their class is too powerful?  There are a thousand reasons why elementalists would want to venture forth and pursue the interests of their character.  I'm quite certain that the populace will not be the lynch mob you make it out to be.

Political Aspirations

Some people were not always magickers.  Perhaps they were involved in something long before they ever discovered their powers.  They might have had loyalties they wish to keep (i.e. to King, to City, to House, to Family).  They might have ambitions that must now be furthered through different channels.

This notion that elementalists will creep and shrink into their shells, never to emerge again on the streets of the city and vanish from society completely lacks imagination and reason.  The 'rinth is a similar model, and many people consider it their favorite environment in which to play.  Perhaps -other- organizations will emerge from a more active Elementalist Quarter.  Mundane organizations.  Cults.  Followers.  Who knows.

Xygax is right on the money about how these limiting factors are necessary to keep the power potential of magickers in check.  There need to be drawbacks to karma classes/races that do not make them a superior choice on all fronts.

-LoD

[bloodfromstone]

Personal Ambition

Important! As long as mages are people first and magickers second, this should always be a factor.

[Kelen]

...let's just make another city and keep people happy for awhile...

Until Tek buries it in a sandstorm.

[amish overlord]

Hiding Gems

I'd really like to see the ability to hide one's gem with an article of clothing. Somewhat akin to the raise hood, lower hood, perhaps a command that would transfer a cover and uncover a wear location if the person happened to be wearing something like a cape, cloak, shawl, scarf, etc...

Anyone with peek would still have a chance to see the gem, and of course there would be severe punishments if a gemmed magicker was found hiding their gem within the city-state. This would allow them to hide their gem while travelling outside of the city-state, and provide some of them with the freedom to do things they think only possible because the gem is ever-present. Unless there's an IC reason of which I'm not aware, there shouldn't be an IC reason why the gem couldn't be easily concealed or obscured to mundane eyes.

I so totally agree with this.

I remember someone who hid their gem, not sure if was a specific item, something imms had to do to make possible or what. This was several years, but they had their gem hidden.

Amish Overlord  

[Intrepid]

I like to think that we as the staff have done a pretty good job of stemming the sort of cultural "slide" you're referring to, so I don't find the slippery-slope argument compelling or convincing.  If you disagree with me and can offer specific examples, please send them to me via e-mail.  The examples I've seen cited on this and the other thread thusfar have been anecdotal examples of a particular player or room-full of players acting either on their own, or in a small mob.  Those aren't great examples to me, because a particular solo player may well have a special loathing for magickers (or may be played badly), and it is very easy (and ICly believable) to be drawn into a mob like that.

I would be more than happy to email you the examples I have in mind.

Even if you're right, I'd rather slide more toward elementalists being isolated than accepted and integrated.  It remains one of the best factors in limiting what would otherwise be an overwhelmingly powerful set of classes that experienced no cultural or coded drawbacks, and enjoys an arguably large overall PC population.  Conflict is good, segregation is conflict (as long as you can make the segregated people on both sides need interaction with the other side).

I would rather see elementalists unaccepted and integrated.  It's easy to avoid conflict and intrigue when someone is never around you--you never have to interact with the object of your revulsion.  In a segregated populace with npc vendors and single-entrance quarters, you can't guarantee that pcs will interact--especially not when the few interactions become violent due to overreactive players, of which there are no small number.

If the sole idea being communicated here was blocking off the Elementalists Quarters and giving them shops and water, I would dislike it. But the other ideas combined with this could make things really cool, interesting, and much more like what the game world is supposed to be.

There is a difference between theory and practice.  Lots of things look great on paper, but their implementation can carry the idea far from the original intent.  I believe that, in the case of some of the people reading the ideas expressed here, this exactly what is happening.  For others, it is just means to isolating the existing mages, which a few posters have made clear was a favorable concept.

[Angela Christine]

The purpose for the elementalist quarters was to keep magickers separate from the common populace,

I disagree.  I think the temple section of the middle quarter was designed to contain spell casting and magick, but not people who happen to be cursed with magickal abilities.  Until quite recently there were many ways in and out of that section, the road network was well integrated with the rest of the roads in the city.  When I started playing there was a non-elementalist who owned quite a large home near the Rukkian temple, though I'm sure even then it was rare.

If events are taking us towards ever greater segregation of people with elemental links that is one thing, but I think it would be a grave mistake to assume that it was always like that, or that it was intended to be that way.  There is no elementalist's quarter, the temples were built in a section of the middle quarter.  It is not a ghetto.  

If it were intended to segregate magickers that way there would have been no reason not to allow spell casting throughout the area, rather than only in the Temples.  Why bother building the temples at all?  The temples were built at great expense by the City, not the elementalists themselves.  The Whiran temple is quite possibly the second tallest building in the city, and would have been quite challenging and expensive to build.  Ok, there were built a long time ago when the city may have been wealthier and then environment friendlier than it is now, but still. Wouldn't it have been cheaper to just build a wall around the area and let the elementalists pitch their tents and shanties themselves?  The temples appear to have been designed to be attractive, and specifically to be attractive to each type of elementalist.  There would be no need to attract the elementalists if they were routinely being rounded up and thrown in against their will.

* * *


Quite apart from that, I think a Tavern in the plaza would have some problems.  Currently there is just the one table, but is that one table getting much use?  No, because it is outside.  It wouldn't matter if there were 5 tables, if they were still outside they wouldn't get much use either.  There are outdoor benches all over the city, and none of them get much use.  When the weather is bad it is windy out there,  and you get sand in your ale.  If it gets dark when the weather is bad then you are just sitting in the dark, because a torch or glow chrystal doesn't help.  If you have been out foraging or mining and you are tired it is going to take forever to regenerate at an outdoor table.  Meanwhile the unforgiving gaze of Suk-Krath means that you will getting thirsty faster than necessary.  More outdoor tables wouldn't make the plaza much more attractive than it is now.

A completely new indoor tavern would be more attractive, especially if it contained a rumor board.  You could even justify building one as a quiet "reward" from the government for the good the elementalists did during the war, assuming that Allanak doesn't lose.  I'm still not sure if such a tavern would become popular though.  Many of the times I've tried a gemmed elementalist the Vivaduan temple seemed to be a popular gathering spot, and I don't know if a tavern could compete with it's charms.  That temple is near the main (now only) entrance to the section so people entering and leaving the area can easily glance into the temple and see if anyone is around, and people hanging out in the temple can easily see who is coming and going.  It also has a great ambiance (I think the Vivaduans may have invented air conditioning, because otherwise I'd expect that temple to be a humid, sweaty, steambath and be quite unpleasant to spend time in  -- hot and humid is generally considered more unpleasant than hot and dry.)  And since it is a temple, it is legal for gemmed to cast in there, as often as they can think of an excuse to cast.  It isn't legal for them to cast in the street, or in the plaza, and it probably wouldn't be legal for them to cast in a tavern either.  On the other hand it is illegal for non-elementalists to enter the temple, which means that people looking to hire an elementalist can't hang out in them.


I think an elementalist tavern would be most successful if were built on Vivadu road rather than in the plaza, for easy accessibility.  For IC justification of a "new" building popping up, just assume that it was converted from one of the many virtual homes and buildings that exist throughout the city, and make it an enterable object rather than a direction, so that it doesn't mess up the ability to map the area. Having it near the entrance to the quarter, in the relatively nonthreatening area of the water elementalists would make it more accessible to mundanes who have business with the gemmed.



* * *


To enhance the sense of clannishness and distinctiveness of the gemmed, why not stick a board in the backroom of every temple?  A board in the backroom of the Vivaduan temple just for Vivaduan elementalists, one in the back of the rukkian temple just for rukkian elementalists, and so on.  Just as rumors that might be important to the gemmed might not circulate throughout the entire city, rumors important to the Whirans might not be important to all the gemmed.  


Angela Christine

[Intrepid]

The arguement that an improved Elemental Quarter will give mages no reason to leave its walls while simultaneously whipping the mundane populace into a general frenzy over the presence of magickers anywhere outside said Quarter is an extreme and pessimistic outlook.

I find it very hard to believe that you have never, in your entire time playing this game, ever seen the playerbase overreact in some aspect to the game.  My viewpoint is pessimistic, but it's not extreme; it's a reflection of what I've seen in game as Arm has evolved.  I assure you, it was not something I just made up on the fly.

We have an entire city-state (Allanak) that has food, shops, and trade goods that can be purchased all within its walls.  That has not stopped countless people from leaving to hunt, trade, travel, and explore opportunities outside of their microcosm.  This model is tried and true with decades of evidence pointing toward its success.

Right, but many gemmers are rp'd as staying within the walls for safety, not because it's their summer residence.  The difference between these other travelers and the gemmers is that no one is going to kill you for wearing something around your neck that they don't like when they see a mundane traveler; it's a bit different as a gemmer.

What does not work, as evidenced by the Blackwing and Muark, is when you create an entire society that has no disadvantages.  Protected lands to hunt, food, water, tolerance to almost any guild choice, fun toys, Immortal attention -- it discourages players from seeking these things outside of their own world.

While I wasn't going to get into the specifics surrounding those iso clans, we are in agreement that that is a major problem with them.

I'm assuming most stores and shops built within the Elementalist Quarter would not be giving away their products.  People need money.  Food, water, clothing - it's not free.  You may be able to convince some of the elementalists to make you some free water if they happen to be around and feeling generous, but there are going to be times when you are forced to pay for the things your character wants.  Greed and a pursuit of wealth is always a motivating factor for people to leave the safe confines of their environment (i.e. walled city, outpost, village, estate).

Right, right...and their avenues are solely Oash and the Templarate.  I find it amusing that the large number of visible magickers is being blamed on the mage pcs rather than the templars constantly hiring them.  Unless other options are offered, you will still see magicker conscripts on a regular basis in places you should not.  The one thing that escapes me here is: When did the merchant houses become so picky that they couldn't deal with mages?  Nobles are meant to keep up their good name and set the example, Kadius is based in the north, so I understand their reasons for not doing so...but Salarr and Kurac?  Since when are these houses akin to pompous nobles?  It boggles the mind.

What good are magickal talents without an eventful use for them.  Rangers and Warriors often leave the city for no other reason than to practice their skills in an appropriate environment.  They hunt so they can feed themselves, buy armor and weapons, supplies, have relationships, pay for apartments, get drunk on Yochem -- magickers are still people.  They have feelings, wants, desires, needs that will not be fulfilled by sitting in the Quarter.

I don't know what point you were trying to make above, but the use of their powers will not generally cause them to want to do so where they can be arrested and/or attacked.  They're still people, yes--people who are afraid of getting beaten up and arrested like anyone else.

So merchants are the only ones who can dream of being wealthy or influential?  Warriosr are the only ones who dream for glory?  Rangers are the only ones that dream of...people not saying their class is too powerful?  There are a thousand reasons why elementalists would want to venture forth and pursue the interests of their character.  I'm quite certain that the populace will not be the lynch mob you make it out to be.

It already has been a borderline lynch mob on past occasions.  I believe it's been stemmed somewhat mainly because players have been forced to co-exist in the same room on occasion.  Vague interests take a back seat to personal survival on the hierarchy of needs.

Some people were not always magickers.  Perhaps they were involved in something long before they ever discovered their powers.  They might have had loyalties they wish to keep (i.e. to King, to City, to House, to Family).  They might have ambitions that must now be furthered through different channels.

Loyalty and ambition are great, but when you're shut out of any possible opportunity, the pursuit of those are stemmed.

This notion that elementalists will creep and shrink into their shells, never to emerge again on the streets of the city and vanish from society completely lacks imagination and reason.  The 'rinth is a similar model, and many people consider it their favorite environment in which to play.  Perhaps -other- organizations will emerge from a more active Elementalist Quarter.  Mundane organizations.  Cults.  Followers.  Who knows.

The rinth is not a similar model.  Again, the gems make all of this very, very different.  Aside from the accent, a rinther can pass themselves off as a norm indefinitely.  I myself like the Rinth, and I've heard a number of imms and pcs alike complain that too many people venture from the Rinth and don't spend enough time in it.  As far as other organizations, pcs have been trying for years just to get a tavern into the quarter--what makes you think that organizations will have even the most brief of presences?

Xygax is right on the money about how these limiting factors are necessary to keep the power potential of magickers in check.  There need to be drawbacks to karma classes/races that do not make them a superior choice on all fronts.

They've never been a superior choice on all fronts.  Each elementalist is a collection of abilities, and an incomplete collection of abilities at that.  Elementalists can do very specific actions better than the mundane guilds, yet lacks entire skillsets; some can be found in another element, some can't be found in any of them.  A blanket statement like this is yet another example of how players take the model and grossly exaggerate it.

[Anonymous kank with wings]

Intrepid:  I think even the most isolated of ISO clans enrich the game world by existing, even if many players do not witness them.

This is true for the staff, that can see all. But will it really help the players to have magick basically taken out of the game?

Also, what would motivate magickers to use their spells, i.e. to be magickers? Other than a few subsistence spells, it would be like an athlete training for the Olympic games while knowing it will never be held, not even a high school track meet.

[Xygax]

Intrepid:  I think even the most isolated of ISO clans enrich the game world by existing, even if many players do not witness them.

This is true for the staff, that can see all. But will it really help the players to have magick basically taken out of the game?

Yes, the game is better as a low-magick environment.  It is intended to be a low-magick environment, and the quality of quests and overall RP improves when magickal encounters are rare and special.  Moreover, magick-oriented quests, in my experience, require far more staff oversight than mundane ones (largely because there has been so little infrastructure built up to keep mages busy).  But, you're also missing the core of my original point which was that the world is a giant web and even iso-clans tug at the strands of the web from time to time, and the ripples from those strands are often felt world-wide.

Also, what would motivate magickers to use their spells, i.e. to be magickers? Other than a few subsistence spells, it would be like an athlete training for the Olympic games while knowing it will never be held, not even a high school track meet.

Why must they be motivated to use their spells?  Why should they train like Olympic athletes?  One of my least favorite parts of the game is spell-training; so why do we need mechanics that demand it?  Why do we need mechanics that even encourage it?  Someone on the other thread even said that it makes them feel dirty.  The way spell-training works currently often seems very twinkish, even if you are actively emoting with brilliant, flowery, evocative prose.

That said, yes, mages have magick and it's interesting when they use it, and it creates conflict.  The motivation, though, shouldn't be "I need to use my spells", or, "I need to train," the motivation should be, "I need to eat," or, "I need to acquire shelter," and for a mage, the path of least resistance to attaining those goals should (somehow) ideally be magick.  That's what needs to be fleshed out, and providing it would, I think satisfy both LoD and Intrepid (and most of the players in-between), because it would create conflict AND make mages seem more rare to mundane PCs, even if their player-population boomed.

-- X

[LoD]

I find it very hard to believe that you have never, in your entire time playing this game, ever seen the playerbase overreact in some aspect to the game.  My viewpoint is pessimistic, but it's not extreme; it's a reflection of what I've seen in game as Arm has evolved.  I assure you, it was not something I just made up on the fly.

I've played the role from both ends, most recently in the last 12 months prior to the war, and I witnessed far more tolerance than hostility toward mages in the taverns.  It is my personal experience upon which I base my opinions over about a RL year's worth of playing time between the two roles.  Perhaps you have bad luck, or play a character easy to hate.

Right, right...and their avenues are solely Oash and the Templarate.

The only "lack of avenues" inherent in the mage class are those that come along with the player.  Who says you cannot work out an arrangement with someone other than either the Oashi or the Templarate?  You?  The documentation?  I agree those are the two most aggressive employers/press-gangs in the City, but a driven elementalist could find work elsewhere with enough effort.

Loyalty and ambition are great, but when you're shut out of any possible opportunity, the pursuit of those are stemmed.

A blanket statement like this is yet another example of how players take the model and grossly exaggerate it.

I think you should apply your observation to yourself here.  When you are "shut out of any possible opportunity"?  This is an exaggeration and would never happen.  Ever.  You always have choices.  Always.  They might not be easy, but they are present and possible.

I agree with you that Merchant Houses should be more open to the employment of mages as part of remote operations with low degrees of visibility ,and perhaps it would take a strong PC to make that happen.  Many things can be done with enough planning, drive, and effort.  Including the employment of magickers.  Including breaking down social barriers.  Many things.

-LoD

[Forty Winks]

So what do you propose to change in the current system, and how the elementalist quarters are now? Is the current state of the elementalist quarters satisfying for you, as a player?  :wink:

Rather than shooting down ideas, some constructive feedback might be of better use. There will always be counter points to a given idea, but for those stated so far, the reasons why it would benefit the game have been stated in what appears to be in a logical manner, but the points that are against change to the elementalist quarters seems to be based upon extremes of what might happen.

Now that I've said that, I'm going try and back some of these points made anyway.  :roll:

Also, what would motivate magickers to use their spells, i.e. to be magickers? Other than a few subsistence spells, it would be like an athlete training for the Olympic games while knowing it will never be held, not even a high school track meet.

This question has been addressed with suggestions like inter-quarter politics and with a larger mage population, more mage-related quests can develop to keep them active and busy. Other suggestions can always be helpful, rather than trying to make a point by asking a question.  :lol:

The rinth is not a similar model. Again, the gems make all of this very, very different. Aside from the accent, a rinther can pass themselves off as a norm indefinitely. I myself like the Rinth, and I've heard a number of imms and pcs alike complain that too many people venture from the Rinth and don't spend enough time in it. As far as other organizations, pcs have been trying for years just to get a tavern into the quarter--what makes you think that organizations will have even the most brief of presences?

I don't see how gems are any different than the accent to set people apart. You hear someone with a rinthi accent, and you can come up several stereotypes within a few moments that may or may not be always correct, and people act on these stereotypes.

Also, I don't quite see what the point of the logic regarding the tavern is. What does organizations have to do with taverns? The reason why people venture away from the rinth is for the same reason elementalists venture out of the quarter. There isn't a large enough PC community to support itself there, so they go out in search of community that does. By adding a tavern or similar such formal gathering place for mages within the quarter, it'll give a reason to congregate there without having to meet outside the quarters at the regular taverns. The vivaduan temple can act as more of an informal place to gather.

[Forty Winks]

Forty Winks wrote:


The purpose for the elementalist quarters was to keep magickers separate from the common populace,  

I disagree. I think the temple section of the middle quarter was designed to contain spell casting and magick, but not people who happen to be cursed with magickal abilities. Until quite recently there were many ways in and out of that section, the road network was well integrated with the rest of the roads in the city. When I started playing there was a non-elementalist who owned quite a large home near the Rukkian temple, though I'm sure even then it was rare.

If events are taking us towards ever greater segregation of people with elemental links that is one thing, but I think it would be a grave mistake to assume that it was always like that, or that it was intended to be that way. There is no elementalist's quarter, the temples were built in a section of the middle quarter. It is not a ghetto.

If it were intended to segregate magickers that way there would have been no reason not to allow spell casting throughout the area, rather than only in the Temples. Why bother building the temples at all? The temples were built at great expense by the City, not the elementalists themselves. The Whiran temple is quite possibly the second tallest building in the city, and would have been quite challenging and expensive to build. Ok, there were built a long time ago when the city may have been wealthier and then environment friendlier than it is now, but still. Wouldn't it have been cheaper to just build a wall around the area and let the elementalists pitch their tents and shanties themselves? The temples appear to have been designed to be attractive, and specifically to be attractive to each type of elementalist. There would be no need to attract the elementalists if they were routinely being rounded up and thrown in against their will.

The fact that the temples were made for the various elementalists attracts the gemmed populace to the quarter. While in the past, it may be true gemmed weren't intended to remain in the quarter, the actions done by the senate to close off the other entrances to and from the quarter besides one is a hint of the change in this opinion. As the gemmed are attracted to their various temples, they begin to settle down around these locales, thus the other shops and plaza around the temple. If it were still as you say, AC, then the temples would be incorporated into the middle quarter of Allanak, and they wouldn't be sectioned off from the rest, as gemmed are trafficking too and from their homes from other parts of the city.

An interesting point I came up with while writing this post, is that if this was the case, there would still be mundane commoners living around these temples up until the seperation of the elementalist quarters, and probably a few still remain there. The elementalist quarters isn't entirely all gemmed, and that similarly goes for the rest of the city with mages. Yet, I think because the barriers around the ele quarter now, this'll become less and less likely that the two (mundanes and gemmed) will be neighbors for long.

[Anonymous kank with wings]

The motivation, though, shouldn't be "I need to use my spells", or, "I need to train," the motivation should be, "I need to eat," or, "I need to acquire shelter," and for a mage, the path of least resistance to attaining those goals should (somehow) ideally be magick.

Alright. The gemmed already have shelter in the quarter. If they're effectively walled in, I expect they'll all start to associate out of sheer human need for someone to talk to, and then two simple magicks can provide for all. What then? Why should another spell of any sort be cast? It would be more profitable to work on that next Kruth or dice game to while away the time.

Even the magickers won't really have magick.

[Forty Winks]

The motivation, though, shouldn't be "I need to use my spells", or, "I need to train," the motivation should be, "I need to eat," or, "I need to acquire shelter," and for a mage, the path of least resistance to attaining those goals should (somehow) ideally be magick.

Alright. The gemmed already have shelter in the quarter. If they're effectively walled in, I expect they'll all start to associate out of sheer human need for someone to talk to, and then two simple magicks can provide for all. What then? Why should another spell of any sort be cast? It would be more profitable to work on that next Kruth or dice game to while away the time.

Even the magickers won't really have magick.

Bt this is assuming that the magickers will be "completely" removed from the rest of the game world, which it certainly won't happen, as stated by staff and other suggestions for change to the quarters. While daily life continues for the magickers, sooner or later a plot will develop that'll involve the gemmed to use their magick. Whether due to rogue mages causing trouble around the city/surrounding area, or criminals willing to hire gemmed for certain activities, there will always be possibilities open. It's just up to players to come up with them.

[Xygax]

The motivation, though, shouldn't be "I need to use my spells", or, "I need to train," the motivation should be, "I need to eat," or, "I need to acquire shelter," and for a mage, the path of least resistance to attaining those goals should (somehow) ideally be magick.

Alright. The gemmed already have shelter in the quarter. If they're effectively walled in, I expect they'll all start to associate out of sheer human need for someone to talk to, and then two simple magicks can provide for all. What then? Why should another spell of any sort be cast? It would be more profitable to work on that next Kruth or dice game to while away the time.

Even the magickers won't really have magick.

I don't have time to come up with a more comprehensive list of potential motivations.  LoD mentioned some, there are millions of others.  But, yes, if your magicker isn't imaginative enough or ambitious enough to see the potential for more in life than a communal barracks and fruit conjured from sand, those two motivations will not push you very far (though you might still need to make a friend to get the sand-conjured-fruit)...  A mundane character with no ambition or imagination will have the same problem.

-- X

[Anonymous]

hmm...I'm starting to think some people are right...there are too many magickers...and their players are starting to ask for the some of the RP advantages usually enjoyed by mundanes.

I fear at this rate magickers will end up being special apped and played by only those with the understanding that magickers are rare and usually feared. That it might end up leading to some very lonely RPing.
That they aren't classes built with the same RPing opportunities as warrior or rangers or any other mundane.

In short i agree with Xygax that the world was built to be a low-magick environment...and in fact, i too like it this way.

[Intrepid]

I don't have time to come up with a more comprehensive list of potential motivations.  LoD mentioned some, there are millions of others.  But, yes, if your magicker isn't imaginative enough or ambitious enough to see the potential for more in life than a communal barracks and fruit conjured from sand, those two motivations will not push you very far (though you might still need to make a friend to get the sand-conjured-fruit)...  A mundane character with no ambition or imagination will have the same problem.

Right, but what LoD and I are were tossing around was the notion that, somewhere down the line, the Merchant Houses became too prissy to employ mages.  This has been attempted in the past and been slapped down.  As I said before, it's within Kadius' collective personality to keep a favorable public face.  Kurac and Salarr, on the other hand, are less noble and more ambitious.  And yet, apparently squeamish on this one topic.

Another thing to keep in mind...discrimination.  Since when is Allanak brimming with possibilities when you're not favored?  Someone has to buy the things you sell, someone has to be willing to hire you for a job, someone has to be willing to interact with you period.  If you follow the fear model to its most logical conclusion, no pc in Nak should be hiring mages for fear of having a walking tacnuke around them, ready to explode.  Now, I don't doubt that certain npcs might be willing to cooperate, but discrimination builds some rather formidable barriers, and these npcs are undoubtedly rare.

Now, I'm sure the Rinth has possibilities...but then, why be a gemmer?  You're in the Rinth, at least commit that much of a crime and go rogue.  Myself, given the choice, I'd rather not be crapped on socially.  Being a mage is far more my pc's business than it ever will be anyone else's, and my possibilities are only closed when I have to wear the gem.  I can do anything a gemmer can do and more as one of the ungemmed.

[Kennath]

I don't have time to come up with a more comprehensive list of potential motivations.  LoD mentioned some, there are millions of others.  But, yes, if your magicker isn't imaginative enough or ambitious enough to see the potential for more in life than a communal barracks and fruit conjured from sand, those two motivations will not push you very far (though you might still need to make a friend to get the sand-conjured-fruit)...  A mundane character with no ambition or imagination will have the same problem.

Right, but what LoD and I are were tossing around was the notion that, somewhere down the line, the Merchant Houses became too prissy to employ mages.  This has been attempted in the past and been slapped down.  As I said before, it's within Kadius' collective personality to keep a favorable public face.  Kurac and Salarr, on the other hand, are less noble and more ambitious.  And yet, apparently squeamish on this one topic.

Another thing to keep in mind...discrimination.  Since when is Allanak brimming with possibilities when you're not favored?  Someone has to buy the things you sell, someone has to be willing to hire you for a job, someone has to be willing to interact with you period.  If you follow the fear model to its most logical conclusion, no pc in Nak should be hiring mages for fear of having a walking tacnuke around them, ready to explode.  Now, I don't doubt that certain npcs might be willing to cooperate, but discrimination builds some rather formidable barriers, and these npcs are undoubtedly rare.

Now, I'm sure the Rinth has possibilities...but then, why be a gemmer?  You're in the Rinth, at least commit that much of a crime and go rogue.  Myself, given the choice, I'd rather not be crapped on socially.  Being a mage is far more my pc's business than it ever will be anyone else's, and my possibilities are only closed when I have to wear the gem.  I can do anything a gemmer can do and more as one of the ungemmed.

That sux, really. If your a magicker your going to have consequences, not just uber-cool spells. Your going to be discriminated against and in some cases hated. That just makes it funner in my oppinion. Just play it how it would be realisicly be played

-Ken

[Xygax]

I don't have time to come up with a more comprehensive list of potential motivations.  LoD mentioned some, there are millions of others.  But, yes, if your magicker isn't imaginative enough or ambitious enough to see the potential for more in life than a communal barracks and fruit conjured from sand, those two motivations will not push you very far (though you might still need to make a friend to get the sand-conjured-fruit)...  A mundane character with no ambition or imagination will have the same problem.

Right, but what LoD and I are were tossing around was the notion that, somewhere down the line, the Merchant Houses became too prissy to employ mages.  This has been attempted in the past and been slapped down.  As I said before, it's within Kadius' collective personality to keep a favorable public face.  Kurac and Salarr, on the other hand, are less noble and more ambitious.  And yet, apparently squeamish on this one topic.

This is a legitimate point and something that clearer documentation for each individual clan should resolve relatively easily:  does your clan hire magickers?  Publically?  Aggressively?  What for?  If your clan doesn't currently have documentation that answers this question, and you're in a hiring role, you should ask for it.  Whatever the answer, it is still likely that the relationship between clan and employee will be different for mages, especially if you've been hired covertly.

Another thing to keep in mind...discrimination.  Since when is Allanak brimming with possibilities when you're not favored?  Someone has to buy the things you sell, someone has to be willing to hire you for a job, someone has to be willing to interact with you period.  If you follow the fear model to its most logical conclusion, no pc in Nak should be hiring mages for fear of having a walking tacnuke around them, ready to explode.  Now, I don't doubt that certain npcs might be willing to cooperate, but discrimination builds some rather formidable barriers, and these npcs are undoubtedly rare.

The possibilities remain, even for the hated.  Elves and half-elves thrive in Allanak, in spite of (from what I've seen) very thoroughly portrayed discrimination (too thoroughly, as some have observed on the sidelines of this discussion) -- the opportunities to pursue various ambitions remain.  And elves and half-elves don't even have a specific region of the city allocated to their specific use (unless you count the east-side of the labyrinth, which strictly-speaking, you shouldn't) -- what we're talking about is giving mages a relatively safe haven to retreat to in an event like that.  Are you arguing that a more fully developed Elementalists Quarter in Allanaki takes opportunities away from mages?

Now, I'm sure the Rinth has possibilities...but then, why be a gemmer?  You're in the Rinth, at least commit that much of a crime and go rogue.  Myself, given the choice, I'd rather not be crapped on socially.  Being a mage is far more my pc's business than it ever will be anyone else's, and my possibilities are only closed when I have to wear the gem.  I can do anything a gemmer can do and more as one of the ungemmed.

You seem like a convert to my point of view here.  Your initial remark, "why be a gemmer" is what we're trying to address, and is at the core of LoD's original remarks in the previous thread.  How do we find ways to make mages a more OOCly-workable set of classes without inflicting their IC whims and potential for mayhem and destruction on the rest of the PC-world?  I think a good step in the right direction would be to make being a gemmed Elementalist more OOCly interesting -- this also helps with the "too many rogue mages" problem, if you believe there is one.  Others have remarked that they consider being gemmed unplayable (maybe even you?  Isn't that in fact what you're saying in this post?), and no doubt that is because the possible niches for them to fill are limited.  Worse still, they are hampered by the bigotry of the mundanes around them.

Someone (you, again?) defined the term "tolerance" a while back on one of these threads, and the definition I most liked could be paraphrased as, "enduring or surviving, as with an unpleasant or unsettling meal" and I think that is the sort of tolerance you should look for from the mundane citizens of Allanak...  so given that, what opportunities does a gemmed Elementalist realistically have?  How can they be given directed and meaningful activities (without generating a tremendous burden for the staff)?  We already have this place in the world that is just a hair short of being an excellent solution to many of these problems.

Oh, and the remark that you "can do anything a gemmer can do and more as one of the ungemmed" isn't correct:  you can't be openly employed in Allanak as an elementalist, without wearing the gem.  That's an obvious one, but I think a few of other options are made available by the gem, as well.  A better E.Q. would generate still more options AND help to make the mundane world seem less "oppressed" by magick.

-- X

[Armaddict]

Me, I'm one of the people who probably 'overexaggerates' magicker hatred...perhaps a remnant from how things with mages were a few years ago compared to now.

However, I'd just like to note that first off...melodrama is huge in Armageddon.  Taking things to the extreme makes the definition of your character easily apparent for other people to pick up and is a reaction to -you- knowing how your character should see it.  Thus...fear is often taken to the extreme, and so is hatred.

Second off...there have been extreme discriminations to the point that the target felt abused, powerless, and helpless before, even in the cases where that target group was extremely helpful and even depended on.  Not to bring up something that may be sensitive to people, but slavery in the early united states is something of an example.  People easily found, numerous, and in many cases more powerful than their controller (not in the same way, I'm sure there will be holes poked in this by many and perhaps some who are irritated.  But I'm just saying...it's plausible for things to be extreme).

That being said...even if I -am- far too extremist in my magick-hating tendencies, I -still- see these ideas for the elementalists quarters as not only beneficial, but downright cool sounding.  What can be wrong with mages having magickal plots to enter?  With having an area where they don't have to worry about the over-played hatred?  Hell, with having an area where when a -mundane- comes, -they- get to look at them like they're a freak and weird for being here.

I like the ideas, and I think it will not only give mages more things to do, make more possible employment opportunities, and provide more 'magickal' role-play...but it also keeps the segregation and separation that has always been part of this game intact while also putting in the sort of acceptance I've always pictured.  They can stay here, but that doesn't mean I like it.  At least they aren't in front of my face all the time.

As Xygax said (I think it was Xygax, anyway), Armageddon is a low-magick mud.  And that's always been part of the beauty of it.  Over-exposure to magick takes away the cool factor of when it is there.  People used to get blown away by things mages could do, and when you came upon an unknown one that you weren't sure whether it was friendly or not, the shaky hands and adrenaline would creep in regardless of what happened.

That just doesn't happen anymore, and it's not because of experience in the game.  It's just becoming more and more prominent.

I do, however, agree with you on one thing, Intrepid.

I find it amusing that the large number of visible magickers is being blamed on the mage pcs rather than the templars constantly hiring them. Unless other options are offered, you will still see magicker conscripts on a regular basis in places you should not.

I mentioned this in another thread, but I believe it was dismissed.  Mages are becoming more prominent due to the -templarate- seeming to become more dependent on them, and more heavily sought after.

When did the merchant houses become so picky that they couldn't deal with mages? Nobles are meant to keep up their good name and set the example, Kadius is based in the north, so I understand their reasons for not doing so...but Salarr and Kurac? Since when are these houses akin to pompous nobles?

I don't think they're closed off.  But they aren't heavily promoted, either.  As Xygax said...it's up to the recruiters to check and see what the protocol is.  I know it isn't a business, but the U.S. Government, or the CIA, or whatever you want to bring in...we all know they have assassins.  They don't bring that to the forefront of attention because then the populace (who seems to generally not approve of this particular method) would be constantly curious about how they're being used or what they've done.  It's better for things to be low-key.  I know, I know...I give vague analogies that don't fit perfectly.  But it's to try to explain a concept rather than give a concrete example.

[Armaddict]

That sux, really. If your a magicker your going to have consequences, not just uber-cool spells. Your going to be discriminated against and in some cases hated. That just makes it funner in my oppinion. Just play it how it would be realisicly be played

-Ken

Careful Kennath

Granted, I'm much more aggressive in getting my ideas across, but this seems to be the same general viewpoint I held, and I made it a blanket statement, yes...but it offends some people greatly (myself included, in situations) to attack peoples motivations for wanting changes.

I made an apology since it -was- pretty strong, but I don't know whether it was taken to heart.

However, the point remains...I think the discrimination and such is part of playing the role.  Some people try to get around it, which is completely IC.  Some don't.  But I'd rather not have those drawbacks that are entrenched in the culture, and taken seriously by many players, come under attack as overzealous because they play as close to how it's been as they can.

[Quirk]

Why must they be motivated to use their spells?  Why should they train like Olympic athletes?  One of my least favorite parts of the game is spell-training; so why do we need mechanics that demand it?  Why do we need mechanics that even encourage it?  Someone on the other thread even said that it makes them feel dirty.  The way spell-training works currently often seems very twinkish, even if you are actively emoting with brilliant, flowery, evocative prose.

To sidetrack a little: this is one of those things that bothered me most in the beginning playing a mage, and even now leads me to come up with unlikely uses for spells merely to convince myself there's a reason my character would cast them. The branching mechanic, unfortunately, makes it imperative to train spells that your mage would have no earthly use for so he can branch the spells he'd give his eye-teeth for. I can think of one guild I've played that has two starting spells which provide similar benefits, but one seems so much more generally useful than the other that there's no real IC motivation to practice both. At a slightly lesser remove, you have spells that do once in a blue moon come in useful, but not frequently enough that your mage will cast them often enough naturally to get them to a level where they're useful on that rare occasion they're needed... though I've always considered those somewhat more justifiable via the sparring/fighting analogy.

I don't suppose anyone's advocating changing the way magick progresses, but it really would make things a heck of a lot easier to RP if you didn't have to go through relatively useless spells to get to the powers your mage is actually interested in extracting from his element.

[Quirk]

Double post: lag was mad.

[Intrepid]

That sux, really. If your a magicker your going to have consequences, not just uber-cool spells. Your going to be discriminated against and in some cases hated. That just makes it funner in my oppinion. Just play it how it would be realisicly be played.

Exactly when did a rogue magicker become a class without any possible consequences?  You should try it before passing judgement.

That is, if the option isn't taken away from us.

[leaf]

Personally, I'm put off by the whole "fecking gemmers" thing.

There's a difference between the North and the South, isn't there?

In the North, people hate and fear mages, not because of what they can do, but because of what they're supposed to do. Superstitions that rival the witch-trials of Salem should run rampant. A mage knowing your true name means they can bottle your soul forever in a glass prison the size of a horta fruit and take your body over and use it to kill your whole family. Making a ring of rust around your house is a sure fire way to stop mages from sneaking into your house in the middle of the night to steal your children. People who come out of sandstorms with all their skin intact might be using evil magic! Northerners should have absolutely no idea what a mage can do, or what a mage is, or the difference between a rukkian, a whiran, a sorceror, and a nilazian. The supposition should be rampant, and ALL of them should be about fear and danger so that those feckers are killed Right Now to avoid anyone else catching their foul disease. This is not to say that the templarate would not know the truth - but the commons should have no way.

In the South, people shouldn't trust mages for the same reason they don't trust the average rinth rat. It's not because they're weird. It's not because they're abominations. It's not because they're magickally-bound slaves to the templarate and don't deserve any respect. It's because they typically use their abilities to screw other people over. The same as with anyone else in Allanak. But treating them like they're freaks should be the providence of the North, not the South. Those drovians aren't happy-go-lucky shademakers; they want to strike you blind and steal everything you own. That vivaduan isn't out to sell cheap water; he's trying to sell you poison water so he can strip your corpse. That whiran isn't out to see the world; he's in the room with you RIGHT NOW listening in on your conversations so he can sell you out to the templars for the right price.

The difference is that the majority of Allanaki's have all probably seen some of the beneficial things that mages can do in a day to day setting, and have likely even used them. And there are likely rumors about some of the things that mages have done that are not so beneficial. But Joe commoner wouldn't know so much about magic to know that Only <element> can do <thing> or that <element> can do <all things an element can do> - even if it seems common sense OOC.

Does this mean that Zalanthas isn't a low magic setting? No. It just means that Allanak has a culture that is at least partially supported by magic use. And that is one of the very big reasons the North hates them so much.

The main problem with mages, as I see it, is they have no context in which to exist on Zalanthas in a non-mundane way because no one but Oash and the templarate seems able/willing to use them because of Northern-style prejudices that make no sense in Allanak.

Suppose that you have 100 mages in a population of 5,000. With the things that mages can do - and the conveniences that magick offers, you're going to tell me that not a single one of them is going to find a lucrative use for his abilities outside of Oash or the templarate that is acceptable to a significant part of the population?

Obviously I can't go into details without breaking the IC/OOC rule, but I really think this deserves some consideration before people start talking about whether or not gemmers should be "allowed" in the inns, or if they should be forced into their own iso clan.

[Intrepid]

This is a legitimate point and something that clearer documentation for each individual clan should resolve relatively easily:  does your clan hire magickers?  Publically?  Aggressively?  What for?  If your clan doesn't currently have documentation that answers this question, and you're in a hiring role, you should ask for it.  Whatever the answer, it is still likely that the relationship between clan and employee will be different for mages, especially if you've been hired covertly.

The above is a perfect example of how a lack of information ends up isolating the mud further.  A player might feel foolish asking about something like this and simply assume that because he/she has never heard of the house hiring such mages, they must not be allowed.

The possibilities remain, even for the hated.  Elves and half-elves thrive in Allanak, in spite of (from what I've seen) very thoroughly portrayed discrimination (too thoroughly, as some have observed on the sidelines of this discussion) -- the opportunities to pursue various ambitions remain.  And elves and half-elves don't even have a specific region of the city allocated to their specific use (unless you count the east-side of the labyrinth, which strictly-speaking, you shouldn't) -- what we're talking about is giving mages a relatively safe haven to retreat to in an event like that.  Are you arguing that a more fully developed Elementalists Quarter in Allanaki takes opportunities away from mages?

This was not a sideline comment.  I mentioned elves and half-elves as an example of how the playerbase goes to extremes in their interpretation of racism and the documentation.  By itself, a more fully develop Elem Quarter does not take away opportunities, but I wasn't referring to the act itself--I was referring to how players do, time and again, create trends within the playerbase by overdoing a portrayal of discrimination and causing the trend to become so common that it becomes thoroughly overdone.  This is either caused by a lack of information, such as the merchant houses never seeming to hire mages, to a small amount of information that is taken and overdone, such as elves and half-elves.

You seem like a convert to my point of view here.  Your initial remark, "why be a gemmer" is what we're trying to address, and is at the core of LoD's original remarks in the previous thread.  How do we find ways to make mages a more OOCly-workable set of classes without inflicting their IC whims and potential for mayhem and destruction on the rest of the PC-world?  I think a good step in the right direction would be to make being a gemmed Elementalist more OOCly interesting -- this also helps with the "too many rogue mages" problem, if you believe there is one.  Others have remarked that they consider being gemmed unplayable (maybe even you?  Isn't that in fact what you're saying in this post?), and no doubt that is because the possible niches for them to fill are limited.  Worse still, they are hampered by the bigotry of the mundanes around them.

If I gave the impression that I thought it was unplayable, I apologize, but I don't recall saying that.  I'm saying that your altruistic purposes of making the Elementalist's Quarter better defined and able to handle the needs of the mages will ultimately get soiled by the inevitable misinterpretation of an overzealous playerbase who must always take the most extreme course of action in any given portrayal in order to prove that they're playing the documentation of the setting to the hilt--when really, their extremes are just as incorrect.  Moderation is something we as the playerbase unfamiliar with.  If the playerbase can, they will ignore common sense statutes and generally harass any mages they see outside the quarter, regardless of the fact that they are legally accepted citizens in Allanak.  This is not tolerance, and this is why I went out of my way to define tolerance in a previous post.

Someone (you, again?) defined the term "tolerance" a while back on one of these threads, and the definition I most liked could be paraphrased as, "enduring or surviving, as with an unpleasant or unsettling meal" and I think that is the sort of tolerance you should look for from the mundane citizens of Allanak...  so given that, what opportunities does a gemmed Elementalist realistically have?  How can they be given directed and meaningful activities (without generating a tremendous burden for the staff)?  We already have this place in the world that is just a hair short of being an excellent solution to many of these problems.

I liked that version too, and that was the point I was trying to make.  You don't have a grandmal seizure just because an elementalist is in the room.  They're unpleasant, they're not welcome, you don't wish they were there...but they're allowed to live in the city and go wherever they please in public.  My issue is that tolerance is not practiced and Allanakis behave like borderline Tulukis.  I used the Burakumin of feudal Japan as an example of how elementalists should behave.  They handle the dead, so they're considered tainted and avoided.  They're mostly social outcastes, but people know better than to get into a fight with them; you might dirty yourself in the process.  You avoid these people and hope they don't make you filthy, basically.

As for options, I think more jobs working for the city (not just individual templars) would be a great idea.  Work with the merchant houses would be nice too.  I also think the templars need to stop conscripting mages everytime it's time to take a routine patrol out.

Oh, and the remark that you "can do anything a gemmer can do and more as one of the ungemmed" isn't correct:  you can't be openly employed in Allanak as an elementalist, without wearing the gem.  That's an obvious one, but I think a few of other options are made available by the gem, as well.  A better E.Q. would generate still more options AND help to make the mundane world seem less "oppressed" by magick.

True, I can become employed in Allanak as a magicker.  But having played a gemmer, I wasn't impressed by the options apparent to me at the time, nor did I really care for the overdone responses from the pcs around me.  Also consider, my pc is a character first and a mage second.  This means the character invariably has goals and a personality that magick gets in the way of.  You're saying that we shouldn't rely on magick as a crutch, and I agree with you.  But the further you get away from someone using magick habitually, the less incentive you give them to want to be exiled for it.

As for being oppressed by magick...I've watched a templar tear apart a magicker not too long ago.  I've never been more intimidated by magicker than I have even a low ranking blue robe.  The world isn't oppressed by magickers; it never was.  The world is oppressed by exactly the people who are meant to be oppressing it: Templars and Nobles.

[amish overlord]

Something noticed, who owns the mul and any other slaves in the magicker quarter? The temples themselves or are they city slaves, just curious.

Amish Overlord  

[Cyrian20]

Segregated is how things are now. Putting in a tavern is just pretty much going to put an invisible wall up between the elementalist quarter and the rest of the city.

Yes.  And?  Again, I fail to see how this is a bad thing.  If the players are going here voluntarily, then they are doing so because they enjoy it (or enjoy it more than the harassment of being in the other taverns), which is a good thing.

-- X

I kind of like rarely seeing a magicker in a bar, when you see one you should be tense as hell. I say give them their own bars to make them something people aren't so relaxed around when they visit the commoner's part of the city.

[Cuusardo]

Tell that to the templarate.  

[Anonymous kank with wings]

Something noticed, who owns the mul and any other slaves in the magicker quarter? The temples themselves or are they city slaves, just curious.

Amish Overlord  

I suspect they're city slaves. Someone has to keep the city streets clean of all of the sand that keeps arriving in storms.

[SykotikGith]

For the record, I am all for this idea. I think it is an excellent idea.

Firstly, giving the magickers a place to congregate outside the mainstream would greatly enhance magicker to magicker RP, as others have said. I remember when I played a magicker that I hung out in the Barrel because there was -NOTHING- else to do aside from go to my temple and spam/twink/train spells. While solo emoting is all well and good, if that is all you are doing, it still feels twinkish to me. If you bring more life to the EQ, then you could have things like apprentices, or Magick contests...and again all that stuff that has already been mentioned. I do not see why this is a bad thing.

Secondly, to address the tolerance issue. Yes, Magickers are 'tolerated' in Allanak. They are allowed to live there, and they are gemmed so that everyone knows who they are. I'd like to point out that tolerance can mean many things outside the strict literal definition. As I see it, you have this:
Templarate: These Magickers are useful tools. I can do with them as they wish, and because I am a Templar, they can't hurt me.
Nobility: For Houses that hire Magickers, refer to the tools option. For those Houses that don't, I see it like this. These 'creatures' are dangerous, and I don't like them, but the Highlord says they can be here. I'll ignore them because they are so far beneath me that it doesn't matter. If they try to hurt me, they'll be dead or wish that they were.
Merchants: I can see how this tool could be useful. It is dangerous, and may bring harm to me, but I can still make use of it.
Commoners: The Templarate says these people can live here. They scare the ever-lovin' piss outta me because I don't understand them. I don't understand the power or where it came from, and who knows what these monsters may do to me? The Templarate says I'm safe, but what if they curse me...yadda yadda.

The point I'm trying to make there is that to the average commoner, tolerance may only be acknowledging the fact that the Templarate lets these people live. Fear, hatred, anger...since the average commoner is largely ignorant, these things -should- be RP'd. Commoners should not know what magick is outside of the very, very basic information. I do not think that they should be completely comfortable in a room/barroom with a magicker.

As far as the ISO part goes, I just don't see it. I've never seen the degree of hatred (except in Tuluk) that Intrepid has mentioned. I did not see it with my magicker, and I have not seen it towards others recently. Also, here's something that also may have been overlooked:
Since Magickers are a tolerated group in 'Nak, that means that they have the same protection that other Citizens have. If someone assaults them in the streets, the city's soldiers are going to wade in to assist (guess who?) the Magicker! Unless there are groups of people lying in wait to 'kidnap' magickers and essentially twink their deaths, then I don't see how sprucing up the EQ and giving magickers a 'safe' haven is going to 'force' them to isolate themselves. As others have said, they'll have many other reasons to come out and interact. The gate on the EQ has not been built yet, and I just don't think it's likely to happen.

[Rindan]

Personally, I have always been for a seedy hole in the wall elementalist bar, preferably with close to the 'rinth.  The idea would be to create a place with true elementalist atmosphere where elementalist, outcasts, and the people that want to hire them for one thing or another can find them.

Playing a gemmed sucks.  Even if you can overlook the absolute tedium of solo spam casting... err training, the interaction you get is bare bones.  For interaction you can go to the local commoner tavern and watch other people interact while you become a master of non-interacting emotes.  The "tension" quickly gets dull as you start to question the sanity of a fellow who goes to bars to sit alone and take the occasional insult.  If you are lucky, you might have one other gemmed in your temple (who will almost certainly burn/bore out and die before you).  Other wise, short of making the rounds to look inside every single temple (which I have certainly done) and inventing excuses to go and talk to the only other PCs, you can live a life of complete non-interaction.  At best, you can join one of the few clans and get some marginal interaction from them.

To make things worse, you RP in a void.  Throw a complete n00b into the Byn or Kurac and after a few RL months 90% of the time you will have a fellow who is at least passable RPing a soldier or mercenary, if not very good.  Spend a year as a gemmed and it is completely probable that you will leave roughly as good at RPing magik as you arrived.  I think magiker RP some times suffers despite the karma requirements simply because many magikers never spend any length of time learning from other well RPed magikers.

Personally, I think that a seedy magiker tavern could solve many problems, increase role play all around, and result in some much better played magikers.

I personally envision a hole in the wall tavern where gemmed, and desperate commoners and criminals meet.  It would be a smoky little place in some basement where magikers can quietly talk shop and learn from each other both OOCly and ICly.  Subtle environmental emoting that would get you lynched in the Bard's Barrel would be allowed to slide.  Every torch in the room flaring up when a Krathi gets pissed might be utterly normal.  The shadow that the Drovian sits in might seem to be a little darker then even the poor lighting of the tavern would allow.  A cool breeze might stir the tavern when a Whirian walks in, and a Vivaduian's glass of water might suspiciously seem to never run out no matter how long she sips at it.  Throwing a fireball across the room would still bring a pissed off Templar, but more subtle offenses might be overlooked.

In addition to talking shop away from the skittish ears of the commoners, this tavern would serve as a central location for acquiring the aid of a magiker.  While most non-gemmed might feel very uncomfortable staying in this bar for too long without a purpose, they would still occasionally come.  Shady 'rinthers, desperate mothers with sick children, and vengeful brothers looking for vengeance your average assassin can not dish out would show up seeking magiker aid often enough for it to not be out of place.  Even Templar and noble aids would not be entirely uncommon sights as the rich and powerful seek to use magik in less then official ways.  Anyone with a few 'sid and great need might find themselves in this hole in the wall tavern.  Maybe a few mundane folks would be regulars there to meet gemmed relatives and lovers who they are not ready to give up on and cut out of their life, yet still are afraid to meet in other less accepting taverns.

In essence, you would have a central location that would act as the heart and the gate to the world of gemmed RP and magik.  Sure, like the Storm's Eye tavern the population might wax and wane and probably always remain low, but at least there would be an avenue for people to meet.  Nothing is more worthless then some poor dumb gemmed sap who rightfully feels like a freak sitting in the Gaj and so wastes his time in the temples all day.  I would much rather see gemmed living interesting lives with actual interaction and getting tighter karma restrictions, then I would like to see leaving gemmed to suffer non-interaction as some sort of sick population control mechanism.

[Anonymous]

yes, i think so...

[Jherlen]

Eadbalde is a spambot.