Pathetic.

[LoD]

Again, I'm not excusing crappy play from victims, but these are things to keep in mind.  These are reasons why they sometimes just run from you.

Those folks who are discussing a raid, not a murder, seem to be in complete agreement that most people will flee when someone approaches.  The topic at hand is how their spam flee (stand:mount:run:e:e:e:e) will have an effect upon a repeat encounter with the same victim.

X-D, and others, are saying that if someone refuses to do anything but employ hard coded actions every single time you enter the room, then you have two choices:

:arrow: Take them off your list.
:arrow: Fight code with code and engage first, speak afterwards.

The problem comes when the bulk of the playerbase adopts this attitude of escaping any scene that may not be good for my character.  As a raiding group, this was the progression of how our tactics were changed by the actions of the victims:

1. Shout "Submit to the Jojo Raiders or DIE" and charge into the room.

Code Select Expand

North Road [EW]
>look east

[Near]
The lanky, wild haired man is standing here.

>shout Submit to the Jojo Raiders or DIE!
You shout, in sirihish:
   "Submit to the Jojo Raiders or DIE!"

>east

North Road [EW]

>look east

[Near]
Nothing
[Far]
Nothing
[Very far]
The lanky, wild haired man is standing here.

2. Enter the room first, THEN shout.

Code Select Expand


North Road [EW]
>east

North Road [EW]
The lanky, wild haired man is standing here.

>shout Submit to the Jojo Raiders or DIE!
You shout, in sirihish:
   "Submit to the Jojo Raiders or DIE!"

The lanky, wild haired man runs east.

3. CHARGE, then GUARD directions, THEN shout.

Code Select Expand


North Road [EW]
>east

The large, one-eyed mul has arrived from the west.

North Road [EW]
The lanky, wild haired man is standing here.

>guard east
You begin guarding east.

The large, one-eyed mul begins guarding west.

>shout Submit to the Jojo Raiders or DIE!
You shout, in sirihish:
   "Submit to the Jojo Raiders or DIE!"

You block the lanky, wild haired man from running east.
You block the lanky, wild haired man from running east.
The lanky, wild haired man runs east.

4. CHARGE, then SUBDUE, then GUARD, then SHOUT.

Code Select Expand


North Road [EW]
>east

The large, one-eyed mul has arrived from the west.

North Road [EW]
The lanky, wild haired man is standing here.

>subdue lanky
You subdue the lanky, wild haired man, despite his efforts to struggle.

The large, one-eyed mul begins guarding west.

>shout Submit to the Jojo Raiders or DIE!

You shout, in sirihish:
   "Submit to the Jojo Raiders or DIE!"

The lanky, wild haired man struggles against you in vain.

>say Stop your struggling, crazy hair!

You say, in sirihish:
  "Stop your struggling, crazy hair!"

The lanky, wild haired man struggles against you in vain.
The lanky, wild haired man struggles against you in vain.
The lanky, wild haired man struggles against you, and breaks free!

The lanky, wild haired man runs east.

5. CHARGE, then SUBDUE, then GUARD, then SHOUT, then ENFORCE.

Code Select Expand


North Road [EW]
>east

The large, one-eyed mul has arrived from the west.

North Road [EW]
The lanky, wild haired man is standing here.

>subdue lanky
You subdue the lanky, wild haired man, despite his efforts to struggle.

The large, one-eyed mul begins guarding west.

>shout Submit to the Jojo Raiders or DIE!

You shout, in sirihish:
   "Submit to the Jojo Raiders or DIE!"

The lanky, wild haired man struggles against you in vain.

>say Stop your struggling, crazy hair!

You say, in sirihish:
  "Stop your struggling, crazy hair!"

The lanky, wild haired man struggles against you in vain.

>say Do that again, and you're dead!  Now stop!

You say, in sirihish:
   "Do that again, and you're dead!  Now stop!"

The lanky, wild haired man struggles against you in vain.

The lanky, wild haired man struggles against you in vain.

<usually a few more attempts to stop them from typing flee;flee;flee>

>hit lanky
You hit the lanky, wild haired man very hard on the head.

We didn't want to kill anyone, but people got killed.  We didn't want to be murderers, but what are threats if they don't have consequences?  There were lots of folks calling us OOC a bunch of murdering twinks that do nothing but kill PC's for their stuff.  The fact of the matter (as long as I was with the group) was that victims brought this down upon themselves with a few rare occasions (like when a mul happens to capture a Borsail slaver).

We went through a progression of different tactics from loose to VERY strict in an effort to even HAVE a scene to play.  And I was always astounded by how poor RP became when someone was suddenly confronted with a situation in which they didn't have the upper hand.  Most would choose to ignore the situation completely rather than lose the contents of their pack.

Perhaps that progression will help demonstrate some of the frustrations would-be raiders, or raiding groups, face and why some of them may eventually grab first, and ask questions later.

-LoD

[jhunter]

Part of the problem here is that there is no horizon. Sure you can try to spam 'l n', 'l w', 'l s', etc. But it doesn't work that well. Is it really fair that a raider can just pop up under your nose, so to speak, by happening to type 'w' then 's'? Without taking any special measure to create an ambush? It's like all clear one moment, nose-to-nose the next.

Is it really fair that they can be busy skinning, crafting, or something else that takes their attention and still be looking around them just as alertly as if they weren't doing anything else at all?

[Ava]

Those folks who are discussing a raid, not a murder, seem to be in complete agreement that most people will flee when someone approaches.  The topic at hand is how their spam flee (stand:mount:run:e:e:e:e) will have an effect upon a repeat encounter with the same victim.

This is going to go on as long as the code makes it possible, right?

I think the issue here is that the code does not support what most of us feel is realistic: guard and subdue seem very underpowered against repeated attempts.  If I'm standing in a doorway with weapons drawn or have my kank sidled up in front of yours, and am reasonably attentive, I don't think it's as that hard to block you as the code makes it.  Same for subdue: if you don't escape in the first try or two, I'm gonna cinch you up 'till you cry.

Here's a possible solution for the coders to mull: decrease the chance of getting past a guard or out of a subdue with each attempt, with your chance recovering over time.  This seems like it would reflect the increased attentiveness of the guard or subduer.  Note: I'm not suggesting that the "first chance" of slipping past a guard or getting subdued needs any tweaking.

I was not too long ago in a situation where someone was avoiding subdues and guards with almost no interaction. It's frustrating, and it feels very unrealistic; and, per LoD's exposition, it leads folks who are (not so wrongfully) relying on the code to get massacred because there's no other coded way for the average player to stop them.

[Intrepid]

I obviously can't speak for anyone but myself, sooo...

I'll reiterate that the imms judge me for my roleplaying and the level of trust they
put in me, rather than judging me based on someone else's actions, so i fully intend
to continue playing out a situation when rping a criminal or raider or anything
else mean and nasty that folks flee from.  If people flee without rp, that's their abuse
of the code, not mine.  I won't turn it into my abuse of code simply because I
think I deserve to succeed.

[amoeba]

I was not too long ago in a situation where someone was avoiding subdues and guards with almost no interaction. It's frustrating, and it feels very unrealistic; and, per LoD's exposition, it leads folks who are (not so wrongfully) relying on the code to get massacred because there's no other coded way for the average player to stop them.

The contention I have with the approaches to raiding I see presented is that they are rather lacking in originality and finesse.  I can think of a number of different ways to approach a raid and come up with considerably different results, unfortunately I'm not saying them because I don't want to give up tactics.  

I will say this, I had a character, technically not a raider by the strictest definition. This character had no problem approaching people in the sands, had little problem with them handing over their backpacks for inspection, and often came away with something from the encounter. I won't say I got their most l337 stuff, but then again never really tried for that.

Work on being creative with the raid. There are real people behind that PC. Real people can be manipulated.  It's sure a hell of a lot more fun than the "I'm stronger than you, give me all your stuff" approach.  It's fun to be a raider, rarely have I found it fun to be the victim.  The creative approach makes it much more likely for the victim to enjoy the encounter as well, and less likely that they will report you, therefore a longer life raiding.

[rishenko]

I think, in the end, it goes back to Vesperas' quote in Larrath's sig:

...You have to ask yourself... do you love your PC more than you love its contribution to the game?

I have been afraid and feared for my character more than my desire to rp out a situation.  I still threw out at least one emote in passing, and with my typing speed, gave them plenty of time to shout, yell, or whatever.

On numerous occasions I have just went with the flow.  I had a guy sitting at the span once when this big ass, ugly half-giant comes in.  I knew there was going to be trouble but my guy was sitting a couple cords from his kank, which was resting, and he was tired as hell.  So he nodded to the half-giant who goes, "Give me all your sid and water or I'll smush you!".  Smush, damn I love that word.  So, I rped it out with the half-giant, sitting on the ground as the beast loomed over him, massive weapon at ready.  Guess what?  By the end, worked out a deal with the half-giant, giving him a pretty crystal with promises of more gems and such as they met up again.  Who knows where that could have led?

Met an invis whiran and his buddy once in the Grey, and though I could have ran, icly my guy headed the warning of one of the two who told him that running would be the end of him.  There was some intense conversation and it ended with my character getting banished.  Turns out,  the interaction with a few people that followed the banishment was one of the most fun, though brief, rp experiences I've had on Arm.

On the flip side, I've been twink attacked without a single drop of rp out of the clear blue sky in the wild, but lived to tell the tale.  I've wandered in to rp with muls (yeah, suicide I know), at times it turning out wonderfully, at others the mul tossing a single emote and attacking (hehe, mul died).

I've raided and attacked, but each time tried to provide a good rp experience beforehand.  Half for my own enjoyment, half for the enjoyment of the other character.  

However, I do agree with several people, once you've put a ton of effort into your character, you don't want them to die...you are willing to bend a few rules, maybe toss several actions into a single emote and haul ass out of danger.  But...if at all possible, consider what would actually be happening icly, whether you could realistically get to your kank, up on it and taking off that quickly, or would you have been caught somewhat unawares?

[LoD]

I'll reiterate that the imms judge me for my roleplaying and the level of trust they
put in me, rather than judging me based on someone else's actions, so i fully intend
to continue playing out a situation when rping a criminal or raider or anything
else mean and nasty that folks flee from.  If people flee without rp, that's their abuse
of the code, not mine.  I won't turn it into my abuse of code simply because I
think I deserve to succeed.

No one is asking you to abuse the code.  And it's not about whether you deserve to succeed or not.  It's about matching action with action, and there are no coded actions that instantly cease role play.

If someone types, "stand, mount, run, e;e;e;e" when a figure enters the room, that's not code abuse.  It's not even ppor play.  It's an action, just like any other, that describes what your character is doing.  You don't have to "downgrade" your level of RP to adapt to a situation.  It's entirely possible to match someone's preference for coded action and still maintain the integrity of your character, the scene, and achieve your goal.

If I encounter that same person in the wildnerness on three occasions, and each time they run from me without an emote or spoken word, there's nothing wrong with my character taking a more aggressive posture at our next meeting.  There's no code abuse, or lack of RP, or poor play involved with adapting to the situation.  It doesn't matter if the order of events goes speech, emote, action or if the present situation requires you to reverse the order to action, emote, speech.

Swift use of Armageddon code and "good RP" are not mutually exclusive.

-LoD

[Halaster]

If someone types, "stand, mount, run, e;e;e;e" when a figure enters the room, that's not code abuse.  It's not even ppor play.  It's an action, just like any other, that describes what your character is doing.  You don't have to "downgrade" your level of RP to adapt to a situation.  It's entirely possible to match someone's preference for coded action and still maintain the integrity of your character, the scene, and achieve your goal.

If I encounter that same person in the wildnerness on three occasions, and each time they run from me without an emote or spoken word, there's nothing wrong with my character taking a more aggressive posture at our next meeting.  There's no code abuse, or lack of RP, or poor play involved with adapting to the situation.  It doesn't matter if the order of events goes speech, emote, action or if the present situation requires you to reverse the order to action, emote, speech.

Swift use of Armageddon code and "good RP" are not mutually exclusive.

-LoD

I couldn't have said it better myself.  If we didn't want people to be able to flee we wouldn't have coded the skill.  If we wanted to require an emote before an attack, we would have coded it that way.  That's not an excuse to abandon roleplaying or emoting or the like, but a simple statement of fact to agree with what LoD is saying.

Having said that...

If you're the kind of person who never bothers to do these things but instantly stands, flees, runs to the city you'll get what you deserve:  little to no karma or trust with more advanced roles.  If you're the type who's going to bring the scene to life, play realistically, and so on (even if the other people don't), you'll get what you deserve:  karma and trust to play more advanced roles.

[Intrepid]

No one is asking you to abuse the code.  And it's not about whether you deserve to succeed or not.  It's about matching action with action, and there are no coded actions that instantly cease role play.

If it has nothing to do with succeeding, then there's no reason to change one's rp
style to match theirs.  You don't change your rp style in a non-threatening situation,
after all.  As I consider speeding off with all my actions jumbled into a single
entry to be utilizing the code in a manner so quick that no one has a chance to
respond, I can say with all certainty that it's something I'm never going to do in
kind just because someone else is doing it.  I consider it lowering my standard of
rp to succeed in dealing with another, because success or failure of your task is
the only thing at stake in the situation--unless, of course, your opponent turns
around and gives you the beating of your life...but that's an entirely different
quandry.

If someone types, "stand, mount, run, e;e;e;e" when a figure enters the room, that's not code abuse.  It's not even ppor play.  It's an action, just like any other, that describes what your character is doing.  You don't have to "downgrade" your level of RP to adapt to a situation.  It's entirely possible to match someone's preference for coded action and still maintain the integrity of your character, the scene, and achieve your goal.

It's not an action, it's a set of actions in such quick succession as to be a blur of
motion I would reserve for certain spells, personally.  While adaptation to a situation
is not necessarily downgrading my level of rp, I wasn't making a blanket statement
when I said that; I was referring specifically to the instance of stacking commands
in a raiding situation and possibly another character's demise.  I refuse to do the
same thing for the sake of matching them, because that's not what I consider to be
rp.  In a more extreme example than the one you provide, if there was some twink
mul running about hunting everyone in Vrun Driath like the entire desert was his
personal Ultimate Fighting Championship ring, I would rather my pc get punked
like the little bitch she is than twink out and match the mul.  It's a personal choice,
and I don't expect anyone to agree with it.

Disclaimer: Before anyone tries to blip out on me, I was not calling Lod a twink, I
was providing a more extreme example to illustrate my point on how I feel about
adaptation in regards to my own rp style and code.

If I encounter that same person in the wildnerness on three occasions, and each time they run from me without an emote or spoken word, there's nothing wrong with my character taking a more aggressive posture at our next meeting.  There's no code abuse, or lack of RP, or poor play involved with adapting to the situation.  It doesn't matter if the order of events goes speech, emote, action or if the present situation requires you to reverse the order to action, emote, speech.

I disagree.  I think you should just report them to the imms with a log and let them
handle it.  It's not our place to be judge, jury and executioner on the mud...that's
Halaster's place, after all.   :twisted:   For myself, if I see people running away from
me with impossibly fast speed, I will react to it as I always have and not suddenly
speed up to meet them.

Swift use of Armageddon code and "good RP" are not mutually exclusive.

We're of two minds on this subject, but as we are entirely seperate entities, I'm
very much ok with this.

[moab]

We're of two minds on this subject, but as we are entirely seperate entities, I'm
very much ok with this.

I'm stealing this.

[Intrepid]

We're of two minds on this subject, but as we are entirely seperate entities, I'm
very much ok with this.

I'm stealing this.

Eh, I'll just give it to you.  It's yours; have fun with it.

[Hot_Dancer]

What if you stand;mount;e;e;e;bring back vengeful reinforcements and then the raider stand;mount;flee

Rinse:Wash:Repeat

Who loses karma progression? Both?

Hot Dancer

[Intrepid]

What if you stand;mount;e;e;e;bring back vengeful reinforcements and then the raider stand;mount;flee

Rinse:Wash:Repeat

Who loses karma progression? Both?

Both:RemoveALLKarma:Buhbye

[X-D]

LoD has done a wonderful job of explaining things. I agree with every statement he has made on the subject.

Now
Ol'meba wrote

The contention I have with the approaches to raiding I see presented is that they are rather lacking in originality and finesse. I can think of a number of different ways to approach a raid and come up with considerably different results, unfortunately I'm not saying them because I don't want to give up tactics.

I will say this, I had a character, technically not a raider by the strictest definition. This character had no problem approaching people in the sands, had little problem with them handing over their backpacks for inspection, and often came away with something from the encounter. I won't say I got their most l337 stuff, but then again never really tried for that.

Now, I am not argueing this point, BUT I would like to say, there are different raiding styles, MANY kinds. But if YOUR raider is a certain kind then it would not be IC to change his style simply because of other Players style of play when confronted with this style.

You used a method that allowed you to walk up at least seeming harmless at first. But the Brute strength style of raiding may be the way others are playing, specialy if playing a raiding group.

Any group I've been in actually does not want to kill if they know they are drasticly stronger then the intended victim BTW. More likley to kill if is a Solo raider.

[Anonymous kank with wings]

Why is it that no one has replied to my point?

When a raider types 's', he is effectively going from a bow shot's distance to nose-to-nose in an eyeblink. He teleports up to your face. Where is your valid chance to run then?

The watch command and spamming look in the cardinal directions are not even close to substituting for what would come naturally to someone with eyes. You would not miss that person down the road or even off the road.

Unless they've gone to pains to conceal themselves. If you're walking along a desert trail and suddenly raiders emerge from the sand all around you, fine. But if someone more or less teleports up and suddenly has a blade to your throat, wtf?

[The7DeadlyVenomz]

Why is it that no one has replied to my point?

When a raider types 's', he is effectively going from a bow shot's distance to nose-to-nose in an eyeblink. He teleports up to your face. Where is your valid chance to run then?

Since I assume that your point is that people move to you too rapidly, I'll point out that this is an occurance that is repetitive in MUDs. Rooms, as we call blocks of area, feature movement between, but rarely through them. In order to create an 'approaching' segment of movement, an astronomical amount of coding would have to occur, along with various othe changes.

There is no simple way to solve the 'room problem', so you're stuck with the 'teleporting' effect.

[Anonymous kank with wings]

There is no simple way to solve the 'room problem', so you're stuck with the 'teleporting' effect.

In which case the raiders don't really have the right to expect a character to freeze in place when they enter a room, because this action is actually approximating an approach from a significant distance.

If said raiders take pains to surprise a character (e.g. hidden rangers emerging from hiding once the character enters the room), then okay they do have the right.

Maybe some skills could be implemented to help the raiders in this regard. Like a "hide in the sand" skill which is like outdoors hide, but takes a long time to complete. A "camouflage" skill where the raiders hide in the bushes, covering themselves in camo muds and leaves. And so forth. If they spring out when a character arrives and subdue him (or maybe use another new skill, like 'swordpoint' him), he's fair game.

[The7DeadlyVenomz]

Sure, we could add new skills and all, and I suspect that one day, we'll have actual code that helps this situation. But there are a few problems with your idea. First of all, while there are hiding-in-the-desert skills in the game, only certian classes get them. Unless you're suggesting an entirely new skill along those lines, accessable to either a sub-guild or open to everyone, no dice. If you are, there are going to be a ton of naysayers.

Secondly, we'll start having arguments about where I was when X raiders sprung up in my room. A room represents about a mile on average, so there's plenty of room for those complaints.

I think it's better that we just roleplay our characters better, in our own opinions. Do whatever you feel OOCLy that you character would do. If you are feeling abused, and you can't take it, do something about it.

The ettiquete on raiding will never change if someone doesn't change it. If word gets out that a raider is giving people time to RP, people will stop and RP, especially if you just go on and let folks live. There's enough good players in the world that you'll still get some loot.

[Hymwen]

Somebody (can't remember who) once suggested a "threaten" skill, and I think it could work in this scenario. As far as I remember, it went something like this:

You 'threaten' someone, and nothing immediate happens. However, if the target moves (walks in a direction, mounts a kank, draws weapons, begins casting a spell and so on) you automatically start attacking them. This way, you could threaten somebody and if they choose to attempt to run away with no RP you can attack them, and if they do cooperate you can 'release' or whatever to let them go when you've gotten what you wanted. This way, raiders wouldn't be forced to instantly attack, and they wouldn't face the obstacle of people just spamming off into the distance as soon as they see them.

[Vesperas]

I imagine that the 'threaten' skill would be quite buggy and would be used outside of its original intentions.  A raider could also finish up a scene and this 'skill' may not have worn off (or he didn't turn it off before the victim leaves), and badness occurs.  It's just a gangly option that I don't like.

I've played Armageddon for a couple of months now, and have had numerous confrontations in the wilderness -- most of these by magickers, but still a hefty number of them were non-magickal brutes.  Since I started playing, I have hauled ass perhaps twice that I can remember, both times in the beginning of my play when I was still questioning the integrity of this playerbase (and in one of those 'spam flee' situations, I did emote reaching for my mount before mounting it, to give my 'raider' fair warning of just what I was about to do).  

None of these situations were badly played by the attackers.  If I chose to spam-flee from someone looking for interaction, or to attack full-force if they asked me for something as stupid as my kewl snakeskin belt, then I absolutely deserve to be handed an emoteless death.  

The idea is that if someone has the patience to properly play out a raider, knowing full well that their roleplay interaction is going to entirely depend on the 10% of people who don't auto-flee at the sight of them, the least -I- could do as a player is entertain them as much as they entertain me.  It's about roleplay, not your personal affection for your PC.

[jhunter]

Why is it that no one has replied to my point?

When a raider types 's', he is effectively going from a bow shot's distance to nose-to-nose in an eyeblink. He teleports up to your face. Where is your valid chance to run then?

The watch command and spamming look in the cardinal directions are not even close to substituting for what would come naturally to someone with eyes. You would not miss that person down the road or even off the road.

Unless they've gone to pains to conceal themselves. If you're walking along a desert trail and suddenly raiders emerge from the sand all around you, fine. But if someone more or less teleports up and suddenly has a blade to your throat, wtf?

Quote:
Part of the problem here is that there is no horizon. Sure you can try to spam 'l n', 'l w', 'l s', etc. But it doesn't work that well. Is it really fair that a raider can just pop up under your nose, so to speak, by happening to type 'w' then 's'? Without taking any special measure to create an ambush? It's like all clear one moment, nose-to-nose the next.



Is it really fair that they can be busy skinning, crafting, or something else that takes their attention and still be looking around them just as alertly as if they weren't doing anything else at all?

If you had read, I did respond. My point is that there are unfair and unrealistic things on both sides, not just the side of the victim. It's just the way it works and we have to deal with it.

You know what I find very annoying? The attitudes of most of the people defending twinky victims and trying to justify them playing to "win". Most raiders (most that I've played or encountered) do not play to "win". They play for the interaction and creating a scene.

Everyone agrees that it is poor for the raider to play to "win". Why can't everyone agree that it is the same for the victims as well?

[Anonymous kank with wings]

How about this as a comprise, since no one appears to be in favor of implementing skills or tools raiders can use to explicitly trap their victims.

If the raider rides in when you're dismounted, it's a pretty good sign that you've been caught out.

If two or more raiders arrive from different directions, it's a pretty good sign that you've been caught out.

If you're mounted when the raider arrives, you have the option to start a chase. You move, you wait for the raider to follow, you move again. If the raider is on a faster mount, he'll be able to emote or start a fight. Otherwise it's down to whose mount and feet wear out first.

This gives characters an honest chance to escape rather than just having to automatically surrender or fight when a raider drops in out of the sky, so to speak.

[The7DeadlyVenomz]

Nobody said that they were not in favor of implementing raiding procedures. What they said was that they were wary of such features, because of potential twinkishness. Threaten was a skill spoken about at length.

I would love to see a raider sub-class with appropriate existing and new skills, a combination to give raiders a chance. But we can't let victims get completely shafted, and that's why we should offer suggestions instead of demands and critical dialouge.

Let's offer suggestions on how things should be handled, and bear in mind that it might require functionallity outside of raiding, such as use by Soldiers, etc.

Let's keep dialogue civil.

[Xygax]

There are plenty of coded tools to allow raiders to operate, please don't try to impose OOC "rules" on raiding and being raided.  If you aren't familiar with these commands or coded abilities, check them out: archery, poisoning, subdue, and guard.

There are lots of other good ones too, for those of you who are real creative.

-- X

[moab]

What Xygax said sounds like it covers it.

I would hate to see a "radier" subguild because that means someone without the subguild is pooched.  Then again, I'm anti-class (no class?) anyway.

There are things that can make raiding work well and smoothly including:
1. Teamwork
2. Previously mentioned coded skills
3. Communication
4. Spies

If you're afraid the victim is going to break and run from the one viable entrance he has (you did bottle-neck him, right?) have two people guard him.  

Strike from hidden positions with something that will slow him down.
Go for his mount / vehicle first

etc...