Pathetic.

[X-D]

I would like to say though.

Over all, the play of raiders and victims in the last two years has gotten FAR FAR FAR better then it has been in Many years before that.

So, kudos to all who do take that risk and try and flesh out the scene.

[spawnloser]

I see this from both sides.  I want to say a couple things on this.

I have to agree with the people saying that if I'm a raider, and I approach someone that instaflee's on me when I'm trying to emote...I'll type something shorter next time to prevent the coded advantage that emoting denied me.  This may result in the other character's death.  I will emote as much as I normally would after doing whatever I need to do codedly to force interaction from the other person.

In my experience, both from watching victims as a raider and watching raiders as a victim...in general, the first person to use a coded action in attempt to gain advantage (either by fleeing on the part of victim or attack of some sort by the raider) is WAY more often taken by the victim...instead of having a fun scene play out, they just want the code.

I will admit, however, that I have seen raiders (5+ karma or special app'ed characters even) open up with code as well.  I'm not saying that they don't.  As it has been said, it starts with the raider...

...but honestly, psychotic basket-cases that attack everything in sight are not raiders.  A raider is someone that does this for a living, and to do that for a living (in this game), you have to know your stuff...which usually comes from an experienced player.  Don't piss off these players, because they will stop having consideration for you and your enjoyment of the game when you stop having the same for them and their enjoyment of the game...and are often good at what they do.

[Cale_Knight]

Surely none of you folks are claiming that every single raider, or even a majority of raiders, have as much responsibility as you're all claiming to have when it comes to RP.

If I'm walking through the desert and someone enters the room, I have about one second before their movement lag wears off and they're able to attack me. If I choose to emote and they don't, I might very well be dead and no longer have my PC.

Now, from the other end. When you as a raider walk into the room, your quarry has about one second before your movement lag wears and you're able to attack them. If you choose to emote and they don't, all you have lost is a RP scene.*

Do you all see the difference here? Why should anyone bet their characters' lives on the odds that this particular raider is going to emote with them?

*The nonsense about them waying everyone and giving away your description is completely invalid, as the only way to prevent that would be to twink-kill absolutely everyone, which invalidates the argument anyway.

Bottom line: claiming that someone's lack of RP gives you the right to degrade your own RP, or gives you the right to twink out in any fashion, is completely against the spirit of this game as I see it. Arguments like "I'm only RPing on their level" are rationalizations for your own twinkishness.

Attitudes like this make me very happy that raiding clans are no longer in the game.

[FiveDisgruntledMonkeysWit]

Hey, if raiding doesn't work out, just get into a new game. I mean, come on... it's not exactly economically feasible, anyway.
http://www.giantitp.com/cgi-bin/GiantITP/ootscript?SK=158

[moab]

Now I'm thinking X-D, Synth and me ought to form a raiding group.

:-D

Edit to add Larrath to the group as well!

[LoD]

Arguments like "I'm only RPing on their level" are rationalizations for your own twinkishness.

Attitudes like this make me very happy that raiding clans are no longer in the game.

Have you even participated in a raiding clan before?  If not, then I wouldn't make too many assumptions about this material.  The quality of RP I saw within the raiding clans I've been apart of has been higher than most of the other clans with whom I've ever played.  It almost has to be this way to work, because you're dealing with the lives of people's characters.  Characters that may have taken days and days to cultivate.

The quality of RP on the part of the victims was generally very poor.  Most of it was purely code driven (no emotes, no speech).  Even when they were seized and speech began, many would simply auto-flee until they broke our subdue.  Their "RP" would be flee;flee;flee;flee;flee, e, e, etc...  As fate would have it, these type of players are also the same kind that will show back up on the road the very next day to hunt.  So you have a high chance of multiple interactions with the same PC's.

The reason why the victims who used emotes and speech were spared was not because they were "good RPers", but because they cooperated with the raider's demands.  For any threat to be taken seriously, there need to be consequences.  What other reason would there be for them to ever participate in a scene with you?

I probably conducted about 50+ personal 1v1 raids on people in the desert while I was playing my most recent raiding character.  My methods were very simple, as were my requests.  I would find someone alone in the desert, ride up on them, and strike up a casual conversation.  Once we got to the point when I asked them for my measley 50 'sid protection fee, about 80% of them would either attack me or spam flee away.

X-D is trying to create a scene using speech, emotes, and actions.  If the victim will not participate in speech or emotes, then they will get actions.  The only "downgrade" of RP happening in this scenario is in X-D's opinion of himself.  He wants there to be more options for the victim than coded actions.  If the victim never gives him a chance to pursue those other options, the only option left to him is to pursue a coded action.  This outcome is almost entirely the victim's choice.

Victims are perfectly in their right to flee without using a single emote or speaking a single word.  Raiders are likewise perfectly in the right to attack and kill anyone on sight who will not abide by their demands (for money, for submission) without using a single emote or spoken word.  Neither of these situations are inherently "twinkish" or "poor RP", but they're both missing out on the potential for some really interesting RP.

-LoD

[Kalden]

What gives you the right to decide which players deserve to be killed without the benefit of RP?

I just saw this and I was scratching my head...man, this is Armageddon.

# Three, sometimes people are nasty. There are no rules against being mean to others that you meet, be it cheating, stealing, killing, swindling, or otherwise making a fool out of them as long as the meanness is in-character (IC).
# Four, complaints of unfairness on the part of other players will not be given an audience. If you think another character was mean to you, you're most likely right.

[bloodfromstone]

He was referring to an OOC lack of consideration and an OOC judgement. I do not think the documents support any sort of OOC influence on IC actions.

I'm not saying that I necessarily agree with either side on the original topic, but "Arm is harsh" or "This is Armageddon" is not a good excuse to do anything without RP.

[Medena]

... is trying to create a scene using speech, emotes, and actions.  If the victim will not participate in speech or emotes, then they will get actions.  ...  He wants there to be more options for the victim than coded actions.  If the victim never gives him a chance to pursue those other options, the only option left to him is to pursue a coded action.  This outcome is almost entirely the victim's choice.

Victims are perfectly in their right to flee without using a single emote or speaking a single word.  Raiders are likewise perfectly in the right to attack and kill anyone on sight who will not abide by their demands (for money, for submission) without using a single emote or spoken word.  Neither of these situations are inherently "twinkish" or "poor RP", but they're both missing out on the potential for some really interesting RP.

You'd have to be a fool to disagree with any of the above. So I won't.  But I'd like to examine the situation from the other side of the coin, from the victim's perspective.  Initially, the raider, and by raider I mean the raider's player,  holds all the cards.  The raider has advance knowledge of what is going to go down. The victim does not. The raider has had the chance to think through the variety of ways the scene could play out and probably has an image in her mind of the possible actions. Heck, the raider has probably even played these out before.  The victim has not had this benefit.  The victim might even be a newbie or, at least, a newbie to raiding scenarios.  Everybody wants to stay in character and to RP out a good scene or they wouldn't even be playing a game like Arm.  Some are more adept at doing so than others.  And in this type of situation another factor does kick in, the adrenaline rush from being in danger -- the thing that makes your hands tremble and your thoughts race in a crazy jumble and maybe even makes an automatic reflexive response kick in for self-preservation.  The raider also knows she is going to play the scene out with emotes, speech and coded actions. The victim does not know this, for all he knows the raider might suddenly twink out and there goes the precious character he has been nurturing for 4 days of play time.  As someone else pointed out, all the raider has to lose is an RP'ed scene but the victim might lose his PC.

I have never, myself, been in a raiding situation. I would like to think that I would stay in character and not only do what my character would do but play it out well with emotes and speech.  And I think I would have faith enough in my fellow players to trust the raider to do the same.  I can only think this is what I would do. Because until faced with the situation, I really don't know.

[jhunter]

As someone else pointed out, all the raider has to lose is an RP'ed scene but the victim might lose his PC.

This is completely incorrect.

From the raider's side of the coin...all it takes is a single twinky victim to completely ruin things for you and get you hunted down and killed.

*you, the raider standing there completely covered from head to toe in sandcloth, leaving very little disinguishing characteristics visible* (they can maybe get your eye color and skin tone from what they can see)

*one jerkoff victim player, spamwalks away to the nearest city without giving any sort of flushing out of the scene or anything, focusing solely on the code in an effort to "win" and when they get there they report an exact description of your pc to any other pcs they come across as well as posting it on the IC rumor board*

[LoD]

As someone else pointed out, all the raider has to lose is an RP'ed scene but the victim might lose his PC.

These words actually demonstrate the real problem with these events.  Your last sentence reads, "As someone else pointed out, all the raider has to lose is an RP'ed scene, but the victim might lose his PC."

"...but the victim might lose his PC."

Do you know who the victim is in your sentence?  It's the player.  If the victim were the character, you would have said they might lose their life.  What a "player" stands to lose should not dictate the outcome of any potential situation in the game.

Much of what transpires when one PC threatens another PC in a lawless environment is based on an OOC desire to save one's character and the knowledge that fast fingers can allow you to escape from nearly any situation.  Most don't seem to actually put much thought into what the real situation would warrant.  If someone walked up to you and shoved a gun in your face saying, "Your wallet or your life.", would you REALLY break into a run?  Really?  Because I'd bet you'd just hand over the wallet because your wallet is not worth your life, your wife, your kids, your parents, or your future.

The contents of a pack are of little significance when compared to what someone could amass in a lifetime of untroubled breath.

The real problem is that there will always be newbies and players that don't make that final connection in this game.  You will never be guaranteed that a scene will be upheld by both ends.  There is no real solution other than to bring these topics up for discussion and try to get even one person to take a look at how they treat these scenes and consider if their OOC motivations for character preservation is having a profund effect upon their IC actions.

-LoD

[Marauder Moe]

*one jerkoff victim player, spamwalks away to the nearest city without giving any sort of flushing out of the scene or anything, focusing solely on the code in an effort to "win" and when they get there they report an exact description of your pc to any other pcs they come across as well as posting it on the IC rumor board*

I'm not sure I've ever actually seen this happen.  Most all of the reports of raiders (by victims) describe little more than the race of the attacker, which is completely reasonable.

[amoeba]

From the victim's side of the coin...all it takes is a single twinky raider to completely make your beloved character dead because the person before them ticked them off oocly.

I wish people would focus their energies on playing the best character they can play regardless of the situation.  It seems everyone spends a lot of time worring about other people's play here in the Generalized Dissing and Bitching forums.

[Delirium]

I wish people would focus their energies on playing the best character they can play regardless of the situation.  It seems everyone spends a lot of time worring about other people's play here in the Generalized Dissing and Bitching forums.

Quoted for emphasis and total agreement.

[jhunter]

From the victim's side of the coin...all it takes is a single twinky raider to completely make your beloved character dead because the person before them ticked them off oocly.

I wish people would focus their energies on playing the best character they can play regardless of the situation.  It seems everyone spends a lot of time worring about other people's play here in the Generalized Dissing and Bitching forums.

I have neither done nor seen anyone as a raider taking out what someone else has done on another pc from an OOC standpoint. We're talking about a second encounter with a victim who refused to interact the first time around. Most of us, that I've seen, give each individual a chance to play out the scene.

[spawnloser]

I was thinking about this since when I posted last, and someone briefly touched on something that I thought of, but I will expand...

The point of this game is not to win.  Spam-fleeing is an attempt to win instead of an attempt to roleplay while the victim.  It is really that simple.

[Aldiel]

You know what makes me mad about this kind of spam typing?  I'm such a slow typer, lol.  I cant keep up with some of these fellows.

[Majikal]

When someone attempts a shakedown, attempts to rough you up for a quick coin out in the desert as long as you act as you beleive your character would I don't see anything wrong with it. You simply can't let your idea of how precious life be forgotten, I was in a fairly recent incident where my PC saved quiet a few fellas and in response he was asking for a few things from each of the people saved.. needless to say, these characters all chose to die, rather than part with a bracer.. a sword.. and a few other goofy articles of clothing. In real life, If I was mugged in an alley and all this dude with a baseball bat wanted was my brand new Abercrombie shirt.. even if I'm sure I can beat the fuck out of the idiot, I'd part with my shirt before I risked getting hurt. I think this mindset needs to be RP'd out a bit more from you desert wanderers. If you're the super 1337 psionic/sorceror crazy-buff warrior mul.. maybe you can handle the situation differently, but the average desert runner shouldn't mind parting with his shiny earring or new shield if the situation suggests that he's gonne be left unharmed.

[Anonymous kank with wings]

I'm approaching this from the viewpoint of someone who has never had a character who had to deal with raiders. (Actually, I did, but it was a long time ago and my warrior kicked the raiders' Blackmoon asses).

Part of the problem here is that there is no horizon. Sure you can try to spam 'l n', 'l w', 'l s', etc. But it doesn't work that well. Is it really fair that a raider can just pop up under your nose, so to speak, by happening to type 'w' then 's'? Without taking any special measure to create an ambush? It's like all clear one moment, nose-to-nose the next.

There's no real chance for the victim to spot the raiders in the distance and wheel his kank around to run for it unless the raiders get unlucky and you happen to be aligned with them in a cardinal direction when you survey your surroundings. Where are the pursuit scenes, where the raiders get the victim if they have faster mounts? They don't exist. Just pounce, and if the victim runs, follow.

[InsertCleverNameHere]

I've never played a raider. Though, in the future I have every intention. And every intention of playing it out well, for both parties.
On the flip side, I've never been raided,  not like what's been outlined in the posts previous to this. There was a case where I was presented with something similar. A hunter PC with a large merchanting house, out and about in the northlands all by their lonesome. Said PC had just taken down a big ol' duskhorn, and quite proud, was preparing to start lopping off parts, when along into the scene enters a couple of big bad elves. Said elves very calmly sauntered up, took the bits they wanted from the carcass, and left me the rest, all the while smirking to each other. There was RP on both ends. Had I bolted, technically I would've been within my PC's rights, a lone, tired little hunter with a weary kank, against two big-ass elves. But if I'd ran, assuming they just wanted to kill me for my stuff, I wouldn't have been around to be the butt of their joke. I got RP, I got a nice chuckle sitting at my keyboard. My PC lived, got in a temper, and got a healthy dose of embarrasement and never admitted what happened to anyone, leaving the two sauntering elves in peace, to overtake some other hunters victories in the future. That was fun guys, thanks. :wink:

[Hymwen]

It's also ridiculously easy to get away from a would-be raider. Run away in a direction where they can't see you with a 'look e/w/s/n' and you already have enough of a head start to safely get away. That's probably why some people choose to run. If the code somehow allowed you to watch which way someone is going besides linear directions and a relatively short distance, it would be easier for a raider to actually catch people, and then the victims would probably think twice about making a run for it. If you ignore realism and know the directions by heart, you can ride from Luir's to Allanak in a minute or two, and very few people are going to catch you if you ride as fast as the code allows and you have a head start of just a room or two.

[Halaster]

Surely none of you folks are claiming that every single raider, or even a majority of raiders, have as much responsibility as you're all claiming to have when it comes to RP.

He's absolutely right.  Those of you who are saying "When I play a raider I try to create a scene" - great!  More power to you.  But as sad as it is, the "raider" is very often just as twinky as anyone else.  I'm not justifying twinky actions by "victims", just stating fact.   Why is that important?  Because as a victim, a hooded figure walking in the room can sometimes mean NPC - who doesn't bother to emote before whacking you.  It's not as easy to tell them apart as you think, in the initial moments of the confrontation.  I have found in my years that to shout something before you enter the room very often is enough to get the person to stay long enough to interact with - even if I'm playing a simple gith.  Don't dismiss this as "that doesn't happen often, Halaster".  It does, trust me.  Many, many times the "raider" PC is believed to be an NPC and the victim runs.  Again, I'm not justifying bad actions, just helping you see another side.

Another thing to consider in this discussion is what is a "fun" scene.  The "raider" players will say that they're trying to create this wonderful scene that's fun for everyone.  Well, being raided isn't necessarily everyone's idea of fun, even OOC'ly.  Someone may have been playing for a long time, "working hard" to get where they are, and then someone comes along to take it from them.  As elaborate as you can make the scene, it still might suck for them, so they're going to try to avoid it.  Amoeba is right - you can pretty up my death scene all you want, but in the end, I'm dead and that sucks.

Again, I'm not excusing crappy play from victims, but these are things to keep in mind.  These are reasons why they sometimes just run from you.

[Nusku]

If the code somehow allowed you to watch which way someone is going besides linear directions and a relatively short distance

To make your life easy, the command to allow you to watch where someone is going is called... watch! Try it out sometime, it lets you keep a really close eye on someone you've spotted.

[Hymwen]

If the code somehow allowed you to watch which way someone is going besides linear directions and a relatively short distance

To make your life easy, the command to allow you to watch where someone is going is called... watch! Try it out sometime, it lets you keep a really close eye on someone you've spotted.

I know about watch, and that's not what I meant. What I meant was that even if you do watch someone, they can go two south and then east and you're no longer watching them, even though you would realistically have a plain view of them if you're in flat terrain.

Edited to remove something that wasn't really appropriate.

[EvilRoeSlade]

I know about watch, and that's not what I meant. What I meant was that even if you do watch someone, they can go two south and then east and you're no longer watching them, even though you would realistically have a plain view of them if you're in flat terrain.

Yes, you will still be watching them.  You may not know exactly where they are anymore, but if they ever re-enter one of the nine rooms you can see, your watch command will still take effect.

I agree that wilderness combat (and almost all combat really) is slated too heavily in favor of those who use the tactic of fleeing immediately without emoting.  Still, if you want to play a raider, you should definitely try usin the new watch command to help you.