Elitism

[Marauder Moe]

Why is it that some people get so offended at the idea that this game doesn't have mass appeal?  Why are those who acknowledge that Armageddon is an advanced MUD get called Elitist?

Do people really believe that anyone can play this game and have fun with it?  Certainly some profeciency with English is required, as is the ability to read.  Is it wrong to say, though,  that you should also have an interest in low-magick harsh fantasy roleplaying-required settings?  Is it so wrong to say that imaginiation, patience, and some level of interpersonal skills are also needed?  Is it wrong to then say that there are individuals on the internet who lack these things?  Is it wrong to say that we shouldn't change the game to pander to people who lack these things or aren't willing to learn them independantly?

It's not ego.  I don't think that I'm better than people who don't play Armageddon.  Some of my friends even tried it, didn't like it, and don't play.  No big deal.  They play games I don't care for too.

Anyway, I don't understand why this term gets thrown around to scold people whenever topics about making the game more "newbie-friendly" come up.

[mansa]

Because it means that if you're not a part of the 'group' than you're not going to get the full benefit of being a player of Armageddon MUD, and your going to be missing out on the fun and the enjoyment.  Very bad connotation.  Sometimes refers to people who are well known and who get special things happen to their characters.

[Marauder Moe]

Well, yes, that's a more accurate definition than what I wrote about.  I never said that veteran players deserve special treatment, though.  I'll admit that it probably happens, but I also know that the immortals also take time to animate this and that for newer players too.  Animations and staff intervention is rare no matter who you play.  That doesn't really have anything to do with the most common subjects where the E-bomb gets thrown around, though.

[Larrath]

Define patience.

The truth of the matter is that any MUD that wants to survive more than a couple of years has got to be able to accept and intergrate new players, otherwise the playerbase will dwindle and wither and the MUD will die.  This is an important reason why being newbie friendly is important.

Nobody I know has ever pretended Armageddon is for everyone.  However, Armageddon is not strictly for veteran ninja mudders with a thousand years of experience under their belts and a telepathic connection with Ginka.
Some people need no help at all, and other people do need help.  People that do need a hand with getting started are still legitimate players.

In my opinion, treating ridiculously common information as highly-classified IC secrets is absurd and outright rude.  There is not a single person living in Allanak (excluding the 'rinth and Noble Quarter) that doesn't know how to get to the Bazaar or where the Temple of the Dragon is - even a five-year old would know.  The vast majority of Zalanthans would know where they can buy flour, because even moderately wealthy merchants aren't able to sustain themselves on tavern food.  Any idiot knows that sitting down when you're using the Way makes it much easier on the body.

Use common sense - if someone's character would clearly know something, don't hide it from their player!  This isn't a slippery slope, and even if it was, Armageddon is extremely difficult for new players, even experienced ones.  I don't see what harm would be caused by making it easier.

(Though I guess it is realistic that people should be executed for failing to call a red-robed templar 'Great Lord' even though it would be commonly known, is completely trival, and isn't documented anywhere.  Arm is harsh!  :roll: )

[amoeba]

Elitist is a perception as much as anything.  The place this gets precipitated most is the GDB. The is because people are often horribly lacking in tact when expressing their opinions.  There is an excellent document om a writer's critique website that lays out well the perils of online communication.  I would recommend at least a cursory glance through it.  It is at http://www.critters.org/whathow.html.  While it is true we are not critiquing others stories, we are still often critiquing their ideas.  It is worth a read.

Some exerpts:

"You need to," "have to," "should," "must," "can't," "don't," "!", ALL CAPS, the imperative mood--these are harsh and demanding. Readers (especially authors having their babies appraised) react to the haughty tone, and often ignore the message.

"I'm not sure but," "you might consider," "have you thought about," "another idea could be," "possibly," "maybe,"... these are the hallmarks of a tactful, softer phrasing:

Of course, you can take the cop-out approach, and say, hey, I'm a blunt, gruff sort of person, I tell it like it is, that's just who I am, live with it. Well... if you do it that way--to be blunt--you're wasting your time. Don't bother with the critique, since the author won't hear you. They're too busy with their rising blood pressure and thoughts of playing Mark McGwire with your head.

You won't have communicated. So what was the point?

Tact can go a long way when shooting down in flames that idea that a newbie took the time to thoughtfully work out. just because you have seen it and are sick and tired of the subject does not mean the newbie has.  Provide some slack, skip the topic if need be.

The second most common elitist tactic I have seen is innapropriate OOC outbursts.  A reason I often dread playing Allanak is inveratibly I see more of these there.  Be it some one chastising another for using closed emotes, or correcting someone on the fact that they should have not reacted to a hidden emote.  Tell me how this is not elitist? If it is so bad that you feel the need to break character and bludgen someone over the head with your viewpoint, contact an IMM and relate it to them.

[bloodfromstone]

I thought I had a lot to say on the subject, but Larrath pretty much said everything I was going to, but better.

Mainly, I just want to state that there is a huge difference between not being for everyone and being elitist. I would never say Arm is for everyone, but the elitist attitudes that bleed through at times, I find to be completely ridiculous.

[Anonymous]

I think that there are a few misconceptions, here.  Especially noted in Larrath's post.

I do not perceive a resistance to sharing IC information OOCly (regardless of how 'widely available' it may be - a term that I find personally to be incredibly subjective) to be a predominant token of elitism, for example. I've played for many years, and I've seen several cases where this just plain sets a bad precedent, and in my personal opinion detracts from the playing experience for many people.

Now, that said, I freely acknowledge that what other people believe is more often than not in stark contrast to what I believe, and I think you're just as allowed as I am to believe it.

In my mind, the mark of 'elitism' comes in when people who do know so much about the game consider anyone who doesn't know what they know to be inferior in some way. The mindset that newbies MUST be helped because they're too stupid to figure it out on their own, or they can't possibly enjoy the game without knowing every single IC detail OOCly before making their very first character is disgusting. I abhor it.

I adore players who make gratuitous screwups in the game, and I am content as long as they are having fun, and in so doing they are not somehow disrupting the ability of others who play the game to do the same. Why, in the name of Tek's rusty red balls, does everyone who plays this game have to be as perfect as you in order to enjoy it?

That's what irritates the snot out of me.

Am I a proponent of finding IC and even OOC ways to offer new players the opportunity to be involved in player to player interactions as soon as possible?  Absolutely.  Do I feel like it should be a requirement that every new player go join the Byn?  Hell no. Go into the desert, my son. Travel lightly. You might not live long, but oh the sights you will see.

I'm tired of the people who live in a tavern making the assumption that, because they can app a noble, that makes them Armageddon's It person, and that means it is their duty to educate everyone else.

THAT is elitism.

[Bebop]

Elitism:

1) Newbies of any kind being flamed.

2) Extremely Experienced/long-time/well-liked players getting privledges that others do not, or rules are more lax and they are allowed to say more, flame more, and are listened to more then the average person that may just as smart and helpful but are not looked at that way because they are not one of the above.  Or having a mindset that you are better, and your opinions more accurate because you are one of these people.

3) Correcting and debating with people in OOC conversation while IG without the intention of looking better then the other person and not the intention of being helpful.  (Instead of contacting an IMM if you feel there is a problem.)

4) Having the mindset that others can not play this game because they are not smart enough even if they are willing to try hard and learn the code.  Or if you believe that no matter how hard someone tries they will not be able to understand, contribute to or ever enjoy the game.

5) Refusing to share any information to newbies like what Larrath stated above because it "precious, precious" IC info.  Even if it is simple things like Where is the grocer?  (It's not like they're asking you direct square numbers from Allanak to the Cai Shyzn) Little things like these might help really help someone end up playing the game for years to come.  It's building up the player base one at a time.

6) Upholding the status quo without actually waying the positive and negatives of the change, basically upholding the way things are now without actually considering the if the change is good or bad.

7) Giving privledges to people, or only RPing with them if you like them OOC or if they meet certain guidelines to the way you THINK they should be roleplaying.  Whether it is in their character or not.  Thusly leading people to acting fake, superiour, frustrated and an entire other spectrum of emotions because people try to act different or say the right things to get privledges/karma/respect/people to play with them or want friends to leave happy notes/PMs on their threads when they are recruiting family members, or get mentioned in a thread.  These are also known as cliches/elitism -yeah it's a problem.

These are my ideas of elitism and I have experienced them all, multiple (if not MANY) times in my year here.  I really enjoy this game and spend many hours playing but it has a serious, serious problem with elitism.  And that's just the truth of the matter.

[X-D]

I love newbies who don't ask for help and just want to muddle thier way through, Its what I did, and I respect it and really think, in the end it makes a better player.

Course, no GDB, no web page and no helpers when I started.

Elitist...Hhhmmmm.

Not sure myself if I've met any that come across that way.
Nor have I seen anybody getting special privilages because of time played etc.

That being said.
I have made OOC choice to not play around certain chars because I absolutly despise the style. This choice I make because no matter what, it is still a game and played for enjoyment. And it is painful to me to have a char try and interact with these types, In a way this might make me elitist, cept I'd bet in almost every case those PCs are being played by vets.

[jhunter]

Why is it that some people get so offended at the idea that this game doesn't have mass appeal?  Why are those who acknowledge that Armageddon is an advanced MUD get called Elitist?

Do people really believe that anyone can play this game and have fun with it?  Certainly some profeciency with English is required, as is the ability to read.  Is it wrong to say, though,  that you should also have an interest in low-magick harsh fantasy roleplaying-required settings?  Is it so wrong to say that imaginiation, patience, and some level of interpersonal skills are also needed?  Is it wrong to then say that there are individuals on the internet who lack these things?  Is it wrong to say that we shouldn't change the game to pander to people who lack these things or aren't willing to learn them independantly?

It's not ego.  I don't think that I'm better than people who don't play Armageddon.  Some of my friends even tried it, didn't like it, and don't play.  No big deal.  They play games I don't care for too.

Anyway, I don't understand why this term gets thrown around to scold people whenever topics about making the game more "newbie-friendly" come up.

Because in the minds of -some- people:

1) If you believe your point of view is correct, you -must- be an elitist.

2) If you disagree with someone else's opinion, you -must- be an elitist.

3) If you give an argument as to why an idea might not have the positive effects someone believes it will, you -must- be an elitist.

4) If you believe that the game isn't for -everyone- (for varying reasons), you -must- be an elitist.

5) If you like the game the way it is and don't want to see certain things change, you -must- be an elitist.

[Hot_Dancer]

Personally: It's my opinion that if you play Armageddon you are elitist..

This is a very particular niche that takes a near associates degree to learn to play with proficiency. Knowing the environment, expected responses, devotion to a character, its growth and its demise..etc

The amount of attention Armageddon requires pulls it from any realm of 'casual' gaming.  ..So, if you play Armageddon and have survived your newbie trials: You're in the club.

Hot Dancer

[amoeba]

The disappointing thing about threads like this is that there are a lot of people patting themselves on the back and very little -honest- discussion.

Changing the channel.

[Anonymous kank with wings]

We recoil in horror at the mention of Midgaard.
We look ill at the prospect of "newbie areas".
We sniff disdainfully at so-called "rp-encouraged" muds.
We cover our ears upon mention of "k3wl d00dz".
We pontificate upon the least bit of evidence of powergaming.
We deride any suggestion that an action doesn't need three emotes to go with it.
We all want to get lucky with one of Delirium's characters.

Er, wait. Anyhow, I'm sure you get where I was going with this.

[Malifaxis]

We all wonder when jhunter turned into jfoxworthy.

If you have ever played a templar, in either city state, you -must- be Elitist.

If you have played a nilazi for more than 2 days, you -must- be Eliteneck.

[jhunter]

We all wonder when jhunter turned into jfoxworthy.

If you have ever played a templar, in either city state, you -must- be Elitist.

If you have played a nilazi for more than 2 days, you -must- be Eliteneck.

Lol, NOOOOOO!!!! Damn, I didn't even realize that it sounded like that.

Eliteneck...*snicker*

[SpyGuy]

The elitism I see on Arm mostly comes into the GDB.  And it's mostly in the form of not respecting new players when they make mistakes.  If someone is obviously new then just cut them some slack OOCly.

Case in point there was what I thought was a good thread earlier posted on a new player about getting his stuff stolen but bouncing back and learning the ropes with the help of some friendly players.  That's how a lot of people likely get hooked I know.  But it did cross some lines with IC information.  Rather than being polite about it I thought some responses were pretty rude, I don't know if it was people being tense about the HRPT getting cancelled or just having nothing better to do but post in that thread or the ranmbling thread about the mud lagging out.  The thread deserved to be closed or heavily edited but should have had a much more welcoming tone to it.

Elitism in this context is in no way an IC thing.  But we all were newbs at one point and OOCly we all should have some degree of patience with a new player.  Especially a new player that shows interest and makes an honest mistake on the GDB.  The Arm community has a lot of rules and habits we've all grown accustomed to but aren't at all intuitive, elitism is ignoring or worse insulting a new player because they don't know those facets of the game.

[Delirium]

Especially when that new player was so great about understanding the rules once pointed out.

I was really sad to see some of the borderline hostile responses on that thread.

[Lizzie]

I've learned over the years that game forums can bring out the worst in veteran players. I avoid asking questions here. If I need to know something I'll check the armageddon.org website. If I can't find what I need I'll assume I'm not supposed to know it. If it seems an innocent or important enough thing I'll use the wish command or e-mail the staff. So far I've only had to ask a couple of minor things about clan stuff, and the clan imm and clan leader PC's player (through a couple of PMs) have been helpful.

If I make a mistake and someone has a hissy fit about it, oh well. That's not my problem. I'm new, I'm learning, and frankly I don't give a damn if some 2 or 5 or 10-year veteran can't handle that a new player makes mistakes. Constructive criticism, when it's asked for, is a blessing. Condescending, patronizing criticism, when it isn't asked for, will always be ignored. I haven't seen the latter for myself yet but I've seen it plenty on this forum. It isn't unusual. It's pretty common in game forums for games that have been around awhile and you learn after awhile to just take it in stride, shrug it off, and find a more interesting thread to post in once things start looking unpleasant.

L. Stanson

[cyberpatrol_735]

Elitism:

2) Extremely Experienced/long-time/well-liked players getting privledges that others do not, or rules are more lax and they are allowed to say more, flame more, and are listened to more then the average person that may just as smart and helpful but are not looked at that way because they are not one of the above.  Or having a mindset that you are better, and your opinions more accurate because you are one of these people.

I have a big problem with this.
There's one in particular I don't agree with, but there's nothing I can do or say about him.

I catch him twinking, I catch him using IC info OOCly and abusing the code, but he's an 8 karma player. I don't feel that it's right, but I don't want a big argument so I don't say anything about who he is.

It's not right for us little guys who are trying their hardest to gain the trust of the staff to play those cool, 4+ karma roles and such when this 8 karma player is twinking out his skills, using OOC info with the magick code, and even gets sponsored roles within very powerful clans (ie, templars).

But who am I to complain, like I said, I don't want a fuss, but I agree with Bebop, this does exist, I've witnessed it first hand.

[ale six]

Especially when that new player was so great about understanding the rules once pointed out.

I was really sad to see some of the borderline hostile responses on that thread.

Was the thread in question deleted? I can't find it.

I almost wonder if we should put up a "Shame on you" thread so we can all flame people who are mean to the poor newbies.

[HalflingWhore]

Elitism:

2) Extremely Experienced/long-time/well-liked players getting privledges that others do not, or rules are more lax and they are allowed to say more, flame more, and are listened to more then the average person that may just as smart and helpful but are not looked at that way because they are not one of the above.  Or having a mindset that you are better, and your opinions more accurate because you are one of these people.

I have a big problem with this.
There's one in particular I don't agree with, but there's nothing I can do or say about him.

I catch him twinking, I catch him using IC info OOCly and abusing the code, but he's an 8 karma player. I don't feel that it's right, but I don't want a big argument so I don't say anything about who he is.

It's not right for us little guys who are trying their hardest to gain the trust of the staff to play those cool, 4+ karma roles and such when this 8 karma player is twinking out his skills, using OOC info with the magick code, and even gets sponsored roles within very powerful clans (ie, templars).

But who am I to complain, like I said, I don't want a fuss, but I agree with Bebop, this does exist, I've witnessed it first hand.

It disgusts me to see that this line of thought exists. I have alot more faith in our staff than to believe they knowingly give anyone any special privileges/karma that is undeserved.
I have heard of people corrupted by others due to misinformation into believing someone is getting special treatment or is doing something that's against the rules.

Example:
Player A and player B clash over something OOCly.
Player A begins allowing their personal OOC feelings to affect their IC actions when dealing with player B.
Player A's pc suffers IC consequences due to those actions while in character.
Player A, acting on their OOC feelings toward player B, begins running around contacting others and spreading false information to serve the purpose of "covering their own ass" and "make player B out to be the bad guy who was acting OOCly" through editing of PM or IM conversations.
Now, players C,D, and E who all communicated with player A go by the false information they were given and begin to believe that this sort of thing happens.

The moral of the story is people, don't believe everything you hear and have alot more faith in our staff (who know what they're doing) than to assume they would "play favorites".

[Armaddict]

I'm with halflingwhore.

I've been around, and been on both sides of this sentiment...don't believe everything you hear, and take a step back and look at how a lot of situations are handled...and you'll see the staff is, in actuality, as fair as possible.

Not that I expect you to believe me, but...the whole 'imm-pet, imm-favoritism' debate is actually pretty rude, considering how much time is put in for -everyone- who plays this game.

[ale six]

I don't put any stock into accusations of cheating on the GDB.

NONE of us have the whole story, only the staff does. There's no point bringing the rest of the players into it.

[LauraMars]

haaaahahahaaaaaaaAAAAAAAAAHAAAAH.

[contribution] I don't think I am an elitist. [/contribution]

[Halaster]

I have a big problem with this.
There's one in particular I don't agree with, but there's nothing I can do or say about him.

...

But who am I to complain, like I said, I don't want a fuss, but I agree with Bebop, this does exist, I've witnessed it first hand.

You obviously want to complain, because you just did.  If you think someone is abusing roles/karma they're given, feel free to email in.  Usually people who accuse others of cheating just don't know the whole story, but occasionaly it's true.  If you know someone is cheating but don't report, then I don't know what to tell you besides "sorry about your luck".  The only way to stop this from happening is to report it.  Feel free to email me, and mud, about this if you genuinely think it's true.