Elitism

[Marauder Moe]

Why is it that some people get so offended at the idea that this game doesn't have mass appeal?  Why are those who acknowledge that Armageddon is an advanced MUD get called Elitist?

Do people really believe that anyone can play this game and have fun with it?  Certainly some profeciency with English is required, as is the ability to read.  Is it wrong to say, though,  that you should also have an interest in low-magick harsh fantasy roleplaying-required settings?  Is it so wrong to say that imaginiation, patience, and some level of interpersonal skills are also needed?  Is it wrong to then say that there are individuals on the internet who lack these things?  Is it wrong to say that we shouldn't change the game to pander to people who lack these things or aren't willing to learn them independantly?

It's not ego.  I don't think that I'm better than people who don't play Armageddon.  Some of my friends even tried it, didn't like it, and don't play.  No big deal.  They play games I don't care for too.

Anyway, I don't understand why this term gets thrown around to scold people whenever topics about making the game more "newbie-friendly" come up.

[mansa]

Because it means that if you're not a part of the 'group' than you're not going to get the full benefit of being a player of Armageddon MUD, and your going to be missing out on the fun and the enjoyment.  Very bad connotation.  Sometimes refers to people who are well known and who get special things happen to their characters.

[Marauder Moe]

Well, yes, that's a more accurate definition than what I wrote about.  I never said that veteran players deserve special treatment, though.  I'll admit that it probably happens, but I also know that the immortals also take time to animate this and that for newer players too.  Animations and staff intervention is rare no matter who you play.  That doesn't really have anything to do with the most common subjects where the E-bomb gets thrown around, though.

[Larrath]

Define patience.

The truth of the matter is that any MUD that wants to survive more than a couple of years has got to be able to accept and intergrate new players, otherwise the playerbase will dwindle and wither and the MUD will die.  This is an important reason why being newbie friendly is important.

Nobody I know has ever pretended Armageddon is for everyone.  However, Armageddon is not strictly for veteran ninja mudders with a thousand years of experience under their belts and a telepathic connection with Ginka.
Some people need no help at all, and other people do need help.  People that do need a hand with getting started are still legitimate players.

In my opinion, treating ridiculously common information as highly-classified IC secrets is absurd and outright rude.  There is not a single person living in Allanak (excluding the 'rinth and Noble Quarter) that doesn't know how to get to the Bazaar or where the Temple of the Dragon is - even a five-year old would know.  The vast majority of Zalanthans would know where they can buy flour, because even moderately wealthy merchants aren't able to sustain themselves on tavern food.  Any idiot knows that sitting down when you're using the Way makes it much easier on the body.

Use common sense - if someone's character would clearly know something, don't hide it from their player!  This isn't a slippery slope, and even if it was, Armageddon is extremely difficult for new players, even experienced ones.  I don't see what harm would be caused by making it easier.

(Though I guess it is realistic that people should be executed for failing to call a red-robed templar 'Great Lord' even though it would be commonly known, is completely trival, and isn't documented anywhere.  Arm is harsh!  :roll: )

[amoeba]

Elitist is a perception as much as anything.  The place this gets precipitated most is the GDB. The is because people are often horribly lacking in tact when expressing their opinions.  There is an excellent document om a writer's critique website that lays out well the perils of online communication.  I would recommend at least a cursory glance through it.  It is at http://www.critters.org/whathow.html.  While it is true we are not critiquing others stories, we are still often critiquing their ideas.  It is worth a read.

Some exerpts:

"You need to," "have to," "should," "must," "can't," "don't," "!", ALL CAPS, the imperative mood--these are harsh and demanding. Readers (especially authors having their babies appraised) react to the haughty tone, and often ignore the message.

"I'm not sure but," "you might consider," "have you thought about," "another idea could be," "possibly," "maybe,"... these are the hallmarks of a tactful, softer phrasing:

Of course, you can take the cop-out approach, and say, hey, I'm a blunt, gruff sort of person, I tell it like it is, that's just who I am, live with it. Well... if you do it that way--to be blunt--you're wasting your time. Don't bother with the critique, since the author won't hear you. They're too busy with their rising blood pressure and thoughts of playing Mark McGwire with your head.

You won't have communicated. So what was the point?

Tact can go a long way when shooting down in flames that idea that a newbie took the time to thoughtfully work out. just because you have seen it and are sick and tired of the subject does not mean the newbie has.  Provide some slack, skip the topic if need be.

The second most common elitist tactic I have seen is innapropriate OOC outbursts.  A reason I often dread playing Allanak is inveratibly I see more of these there.  Be it some one chastising another for using closed emotes, or correcting someone on the fact that they should have not reacted to a hidden emote.  Tell me how this is not elitist? If it is so bad that you feel the need to break character and bludgen someone over the head with your viewpoint, contact an IMM and relate it to them.

[bloodfromstone]

I thought I had a lot to say on the subject, but Larrath pretty much said everything I was going to, but better.

Mainly, I just want to state that there is a huge difference between not being for everyone and being elitist. I would never say Arm is for everyone, but the elitist attitudes that bleed through at times, I find to be completely ridiculous.

[Anonymous]

I think that there are a few misconceptions, here.  Especially noted in Larrath's post.

I do not perceive a resistance to sharing IC information OOCly (regardless of how 'widely available' it may be - a term that I find personally to be incredibly subjective) to be a predominant token of elitism, for example. I've played for many years, and I've seen several cases where this just plain sets a bad precedent, and in my personal opinion detracts from the playing experience for many people.

Now, that said, I freely acknowledge that what other people believe is more often than not in stark contrast to what I believe, and I think you're just as allowed as I am to believe it.

In my mind, the mark of 'elitism' comes in when people who do know so much about the game consider anyone who doesn't know what they know to be inferior in some way. The mindset that newbies MUST be helped because they're too stupid to figure it out on their own, or they can't possibly enjoy the game without knowing every single IC detail OOCly before making their very first character is disgusting. I abhor it.

I adore players who make gratuitous screwups in the game, and I am content as long as they are having fun, and in so doing they are not somehow disrupting the ability of others who play the game to do the same. Why, in the name of Tek's rusty red balls, does everyone who plays this game have to be as perfect as you in order to enjoy it?

That's what irritates the snot out of me.

Am I a proponent of finding IC and even OOC ways to offer new players the opportunity to be involved in player to player interactions as soon as possible?  Absolutely.  Do I feel like it should be a requirement that every new player go join the Byn?  Hell no. Go into the desert, my son. Travel lightly. You might not live long, but oh the sights you will see.

I'm tired of the people who live in a tavern making the assumption that, because they can app a noble, that makes them Armageddon's It person, and that means it is their duty to educate everyone else.

THAT is elitism.

[Bebop]

Elitism:

1) Newbies of any kind being flamed.

2) Extremely Experienced/long-time/well-liked players getting privledges that others do not, or rules are more lax and they are allowed to say more, flame more, and are listened to more then the average person that may just as smart and helpful but are not looked at that way because they are not one of the above.  Or having a mindset that you are better, and your opinions more accurate because you are one of these people.

3) Correcting and debating with people in OOC conversation while IG without the intention of looking better then the other person and not the intention of being helpful.  (Instead of contacting an IMM if you feel there is a problem.)

4) Having the mindset that others can not play this game because they are not smart enough even if they are willing to try hard and learn the code.  Or if you believe that no matter how hard someone tries they will not be able to understand, contribute to or ever enjoy the game.

5) Refusing to share any information to newbies like what Larrath stated above because it "precious, precious" IC info.  Even if it is simple things like Where is the grocer?  (It's not like they're asking you direct square numbers from Allanak to the Cai Shyzn) Little things like these might help really help someone end up playing the game for years to come.  It's building up the player base one at a time.

6) Upholding the status quo without actually waying the positive and negatives of the change, basically upholding the way things are now without actually considering the if the change is good or bad.

7) Giving privledges to people, or only RPing with them if you like them OOC or if they meet certain guidelines to the way you THINK they should be roleplaying.  Whether it is in their character or not.  Thusly leading people to acting fake, superiour, frustrated and an entire other spectrum of emotions because people try to act different or say the right things to get privledges/karma/respect/people to play with them or want friends to leave happy notes/PMs on their threads when they are recruiting family members, or get mentioned in a thread.  These are also known as cliches/elitism -yeah it's a problem.

These are my ideas of elitism and I have experienced them all, multiple (if not MANY) times in my year here.  I really enjoy this game and spend many hours playing but it has a serious, serious problem with elitism.  And that's just the truth of the matter.

[X-D]

I love newbies who don't ask for help and just want to muddle thier way through, Its what I did, and I respect it and really think, in the end it makes a better player.

Course, no GDB, no web page and no helpers when I started.

Elitist...Hhhmmmm.

Not sure myself if I've met any that come across that way.
Nor have I seen anybody getting special privilages because of time played etc.

That being said.
I have made OOC choice to not play around certain chars because I absolutly despise the style. This choice I make because no matter what, it is still a game and played for enjoyment. And it is painful to me to have a char try and interact with these types, In a way this might make me elitist, cept I'd bet in almost every case those PCs are being played by vets.

[jhunter]

Why is it that some people get so offended at the idea that this game doesn't have mass appeal?  Why are those who acknowledge that Armageddon is an advanced MUD get called Elitist?

Do people really believe that anyone can play this game and have fun with it?  Certainly some profeciency with English is required, as is the ability to read.  Is it wrong to say, though,  that you should also have an interest in low-magick harsh fantasy roleplaying-required settings?  Is it so wrong to say that imaginiation, patience, and some level of interpersonal skills are also needed?  Is it wrong to then say that there are individuals on the internet who lack these things?  Is it wrong to say that we shouldn't change the game to pander to people who lack these things or aren't willing to learn them independantly?

It's not ego.  I don't think that I'm better than people who don't play Armageddon.  Some of my friends even tried it, didn't like it, and don't play.  No big deal.  They play games I don't care for too.

Anyway, I don't understand why this term gets thrown around to scold people whenever topics about making the game more "newbie-friendly" come up.

Because in the minds of -some- people:

1) If you believe your point of view is correct, you -must- be an elitist.

2) If you disagree with someone else's opinion, you -must- be an elitist.

3) If you give an argument as to why an idea might not have the positive effects someone believes it will, you -must- be an elitist.

4) If you believe that the game isn't for -everyone- (for varying reasons), you -must- be an elitist.

5) If you like the game the way it is and don't want to see certain things change, you -must- be an elitist.

[Hot_Dancer]

Personally: It's my opinion that if you play Armageddon you are elitist..

This is a very particular niche that takes a near associates degree to learn to play with proficiency. Knowing the environment, expected responses, devotion to a character, its growth and its demise..etc

The amount of attention Armageddon requires pulls it from any realm of 'casual' gaming.  ..So, if you play Armageddon and have survived your newbie trials: You're in the club.

Hot Dancer

[amoeba]

The disappointing thing about threads like this is that there are a lot of people patting themselves on the back and very little -honest- discussion.

Changing the channel.

[Anonymous kank with wings]

We recoil in horror at the mention of Midgaard.
We look ill at the prospect of "newbie areas".
We sniff disdainfully at so-called "rp-encouraged" muds.
We cover our ears upon mention of "k3wl d00dz".
We pontificate upon the least bit of evidence of powergaming.
We deride any suggestion that an action doesn't need three emotes to go with it.
We all want to get lucky with one of Delirium's characters.

Er, wait. Anyhow, I'm sure you get where I was going with this.

[Malifaxis]

We all wonder when jhunter turned into jfoxworthy.

If you have ever played a templar, in either city state, you -must- be Elitist.

If you have played a nilazi for more than 2 days, you -must- be Eliteneck.

[jhunter]

We all wonder when jhunter turned into jfoxworthy.

If you have ever played a templar, in either city state, you -must- be Elitist.

If you have played a nilazi for more than 2 days, you -must- be Eliteneck.

Lol, NOOOOOO!!!! Damn, I didn't even realize that it sounded like that.

Eliteneck...*snicker*

[SpyGuy]

The elitism I see on Arm mostly comes into the GDB.  And it's mostly in the form of not respecting new players when they make mistakes.  If someone is obviously new then just cut them some slack OOCly.

Case in point there was what I thought was a good thread earlier posted on a new player about getting his stuff stolen but bouncing back and learning the ropes with the help of some friendly players.  That's how a lot of people likely get hooked I know.  But it did cross some lines with IC information.  Rather than being polite about it I thought some responses were pretty rude, I don't know if it was people being tense about the HRPT getting cancelled or just having nothing better to do but post in that thread or the ranmbling thread about the mud lagging out.  The thread deserved to be closed or heavily edited but should have had a much more welcoming tone to it.

Elitism in this context is in no way an IC thing.  But we all were newbs at one point and OOCly we all should have some degree of patience with a new player.  Especially a new player that shows interest and makes an honest mistake on the GDB.  The Arm community has a lot of rules and habits we've all grown accustomed to but aren't at all intuitive, elitism is ignoring or worse insulting a new player because they don't know those facets of the game.

[Delirium]

Especially when that new player was so great about understanding the rules once pointed out.

I was really sad to see some of the borderline hostile responses on that thread.

[Lizzie]

I've learned over the years that game forums can bring out the worst in veteran players. I avoid asking questions here. If I need to know something I'll check the armageddon.org website. If I can't find what I need I'll assume I'm not supposed to know it. If it seems an innocent or important enough thing I'll use the wish command or e-mail the staff. So far I've only had to ask a couple of minor things about clan stuff, and the clan imm and clan leader PC's player (through a couple of PMs) have been helpful.

If I make a mistake and someone has a hissy fit about it, oh well. That's not my problem. I'm new, I'm learning, and frankly I don't give a damn if some 2 or 5 or 10-year veteran can't handle that a new player makes mistakes. Constructive criticism, when it's asked for, is a blessing. Condescending, patronizing criticism, when it isn't asked for, will always be ignored. I haven't seen the latter for myself yet but I've seen it plenty on this forum. It isn't unusual. It's pretty common in game forums for games that have been around awhile and you learn after awhile to just take it in stride, shrug it off, and find a more interesting thread to post in once things start looking unpleasant.

L. Stanson

[cyberpatrol_735]

Elitism:

2) Extremely Experienced/long-time/well-liked players getting privledges that others do not, or rules are more lax and they are allowed to say more, flame more, and are listened to more then the average person that may just as smart and helpful but are not looked at that way because they are not one of the above.  Or having a mindset that you are better, and your opinions more accurate because you are one of these people.

I have a big problem with this.
There's one in particular I don't agree with, but there's nothing I can do or say about him.

I catch him twinking, I catch him using IC info OOCly and abusing the code, but he's an 8 karma player. I don't feel that it's right, but I don't want a big argument so I don't say anything about who he is.

It's not right for us little guys who are trying their hardest to gain the trust of the staff to play those cool, 4+ karma roles and such when this 8 karma player is twinking out his skills, using OOC info with the magick code, and even gets sponsored roles within very powerful clans (ie, templars).

But who am I to complain, like I said, I don't want a fuss, but I agree with Bebop, this does exist, I've witnessed it first hand.

[ale six]

Especially when that new player was so great about understanding the rules once pointed out.

I was really sad to see some of the borderline hostile responses on that thread.

Was the thread in question deleted? I can't find it.

I almost wonder if we should put up a "Shame on you" thread so we can all flame people who are mean to the poor newbies.

[HalflingWhore]

Elitism:

2) Extremely Experienced/long-time/well-liked players getting privledges that others do not, or rules are more lax and they are allowed to say more, flame more, and are listened to more then the average person that may just as smart and helpful but are not looked at that way because they are not one of the above.  Or having a mindset that you are better, and your opinions more accurate because you are one of these people.

I have a big problem with this.
There's one in particular I don't agree with, but there's nothing I can do or say about him.

I catch him twinking, I catch him using IC info OOCly and abusing the code, but he's an 8 karma player. I don't feel that it's right, but I don't want a big argument so I don't say anything about who he is.

It's not right for us little guys who are trying their hardest to gain the trust of the staff to play those cool, 4+ karma roles and such when this 8 karma player is twinking out his skills, using OOC info with the magick code, and even gets sponsored roles within very powerful clans (ie, templars).

But who am I to complain, like I said, I don't want a fuss, but I agree with Bebop, this does exist, I've witnessed it first hand.

It disgusts me to see that this line of thought exists. I have alot more faith in our staff than to believe they knowingly give anyone any special privileges/karma that is undeserved.
I have heard of people corrupted by others due to misinformation into believing someone is getting special treatment or is doing something that's against the rules.

Example:
Player A and player B clash over something OOCly.
Player A begins allowing their personal OOC feelings to affect their IC actions when dealing with player B.
Player A's pc suffers IC consequences due to those actions while in character.
Player A, acting on their OOC feelings toward player B, begins running around contacting others and spreading false information to serve the purpose of "covering their own ass" and "make player B out to be the bad guy who was acting OOCly" through editing of PM or IM conversations.
Now, players C,D, and E who all communicated with player A go by the false information they were given and begin to believe that this sort of thing happens.

The moral of the story is people, don't believe everything you hear and have alot more faith in our staff (who know what they're doing) than to assume they would "play favorites".

[Armaddict]

I'm with halflingwhore.

I've been around, and been on both sides of this sentiment...don't believe everything you hear, and take a step back and look at how a lot of situations are handled...and you'll see the staff is, in actuality, as fair as possible.

Not that I expect you to believe me, but...the whole 'imm-pet, imm-favoritism' debate is actually pretty rude, considering how much time is put in for -everyone- who plays this game.

[ale six]

I don't put any stock into accusations of cheating on the GDB.

NONE of us have the whole story, only the staff does. There's no point bringing the rest of the players into it.

[LauraMars]

haaaahahahaaaaaaaAAAAAAAAAHAAAAH.

[contribution] I don't think I am an elitist. [/contribution]

[Halaster]

I have a big problem with this.
There's one in particular I don't agree with, but there's nothing I can do or say about him.

...

But who am I to complain, like I said, I don't want a fuss, but I agree with Bebop, this does exist, I've witnessed it first hand.

You obviously want to complain, because you just did.  If you think someone is abusing roles/karma they're given, feel free to email in.  Usually people who accuse others of cheating just don't know the whole story, but occasionaly it's true.  If you know someone is cheating but don't report, then I don't know what to tell you besides "sorry about your luck".  The only way to stop this from happening is to report it.  Feel free to email me, and mud, about this if you genuinely think it's true.

[Resurrect]

The majority of elitism I've seen is in regards to the code. People witholding information as IC sensitive that is command/code related. If you don't tell the newbie assassin that typing 'eq' breaks hide then he's going to be screwed. Often. He may never figure it out.

I've tried to get a friend of mine to play armageddon repeatedly over the years, each time he tries he gives up after a few hours of played time because of the majority of code related issues. He doesn't know how to store a mount in a stable, he doesn't know how to retrieve it. He doesn't understand how inventory and item storage works so he gets everything jacked from him. The crafting system is incredibly complex and there's very little documentation on how to create fairly simple items, its a sort of discovery process via the code that is very frustrating to new players. On top of that, a lot of PCs can be downright vicious and when you top off all the aforementioned stuff with that fact of gameplay you end up with a high newbie drop out rate. Also, a number of people on the GDB go around 'policing' topics for information that is 'IC Sensitive' when quite a few things are very basic and shouldn't be withheld from the new players.

The above factors, complex code and command system, people trying to surpress IC information (I'm sure they do it with good intentions but it gets taken too far more often than not) and also a general air of "Don't talk about the game outside the game" adds to a feeling of 'elitism' that really isn't there.

I'm not saying there aren't RP Cliques IG and on the GDB, but those are things that don't necessarily affect newbie gameplay and aren't a concern for my point.

Meh, maybe I'll write something up and send it in to the MUD for approval and posting on the website.

[Anonymous]

I'm not saying there aren't RP Cliques IG and on the GDB, but those are things that don't necessarily affect newbie gameplay and aren't a concern for my point.

Someone invite me to their RP clique please because I don't think I have any friends who play Arm.  Plus everytime I hang out in the IRC channel I get in trouble.

[Kalden]

Something as simple as crafting travel cakes took me forever to learn. After I learned it my characters survived a lot longer, especially as independents.

The problem I had with the crafting system to begin with is that the "a" in the item sdesc isn't included when you craft.

There's dozens of other hurdles that new players have to overcome. It takes a lot of diligence. I'm not so sure it's unavailable for new players, but it is hard to find.

[cyberpatrol_735]

I have a big problem with this.
There's one in particular I don't agree with, but there's nothing I can do or say about him.

...

But who am I to complain, like I said, I don't want a fuss, but I agree with Bebop, this does exist, I've witnessed it first hand.

You obviously want to complain, because you just did.  If you think someone is abusing roles/karma they're given, feel free to email in.  Usually people who accuse others of cheating just don't know the whole story, but occasionaly it's true.  If you know someone is cheating but don't report, then I don't know what to tell you besides "sorry about your luck".  The only way to stop this from happening is to report it.  Feel free to email me, and mud, about this if you genuinely think it's true.

I would like to, yes. The matter of the fact is that Yes, I have trust in the staff and their decisions but some things are missed I'm sure, they volunteer a -lot- of time, but you can't watch every single person at every moment. What's that have to do with it? I can't technically prove that this said player is doing this because for one, my logs mean nothing, I could make them up, sure. Two, I don't want to hassle the staff and have them endlessly searching old logs, and three I can deal with it the way it is now, although I don't like it.

I'll shoot you an email about who it is and stuff halaster, but like I said, I don't want to see it blow up.

I hate having to defend myself against attacks on the GDB, that's usually why I don't post at all, I feel that my opinion here doesn't matter to the rest of the players, I sometimes get flamed or put down, much to my dismay.

Reguardless, I still play this game because I love playing it, I love the roleplay, the staff's dedication, and the way it's set up down the the very last drop of water.

I try not to let stuff like this get to me, so I generally just stop posting, this is some of the problem with the newbies I think. I'm technically not a "newbie" but I'm not an "oldie" either, that still doesn't give anyone the right to shun my opinions or to shut me down on the spot, I see this on the GDB and it's not cool.

I don't know what's up with the attitude, I wouldn't call it "elitist", that's a rude term really, but IMHO sometimes the older players on the GDB that post are way too aggressive with the newbies.

Staff side? Never had any problems, no arguments whatsoever. Player side on the GDB? Not so good.

With that said, I'm going to withdraw from this post.

Thanks.

[diealot2l2l]

I agree that there is a lot of elitism with code syntax issues.

I myself have been flamed by my copycat for giving away too much information.. that I thought was more or less trying to help the newbie find the correct syntax.  Its like the old text-games, a la Zork.  If you don't know the syntax, you're screwed.

Lets say you want to get from cliff A to cliff B..  In the desc it says its close enough to jump.  So.. you 'jump'.  You get 'What?'  you 'hop'. 'What?' you try every word you can think of.. that makes sense..    but you somehow didn't think of 'leap'.  So you starve to death.

Some people on the GDB think telling them to 'leap' is wrong, and horribly IC.  I always thought it was ok to tell them to 'leap'.

Note: the above was an example, nothing more.

[Mudder]

I find it hard to believe the Staff would play favorites, but who knows, maybe they do. But, I seriously doubt it Maybe these people are getting these HIGH roles because they have done something to impress the staff maybe? I mean, I would thing that such high karma roles woul be watched alot by the staff and the first time the screw up bad, the player would know about it.

[Tiffed Kank]

And of course some of these comments coming from folks whom got 4+ karma on their first two characters, I wouldn't doubt it.

I for one think there's huge favortism floating around here.  I've got two karma, been around for two years consistantly, while there's newbies who've been around for not quite a year, running around with the same amount as moi.

Favortism?  Yes, I quite possibly think so.

[Naiona]

Tiffed Kank-

Having looked up your IP address, I checked your account.  You were last granted karma less then 15 days ago, taking you up to 3, total.  I would add that people are sometimes as honest about their karma amounts as they are about their height and weight.  Don't believe everything you hear.

If you believe you are aware of an instance of favoritism, please feel free to email the mud account at mud@ginka.armageddon.org.  I assure you that all such suggestions are thoroughly examined.

[Ritley.]

Favouritism? nah...

I only have one karma and I blame that on my rp ability, which I can admit is not as good as somes. I have been playing for a year and a half, if not more as well, but I do not think it is due to favouritism. *shrug*

[flurry]

It's been interesting to read what different people mean when they refer to "elitism".  

When I first started playing Armageddon, I found the feel of the GDB to be kind of elitist.  There just seemed to be so much focus on minutia and a lot of posts that seemed judgemental about other people's roleplay.   After a while, my perspective on this changed, and I think a lot of it just comes with the territory of an RPI.  People have high expectations their fellow players and the game they love.   I just think sometimes the expression of that can be a little off-putting, especially if someone is new to the game.

That's not to say that it's always inadverntent and well-meaning.  Sometimes people are just jerks.

[Desertman]

I dont think its so much favoratism....Well...in most cases as it is just circumstantial. I have been playing for six years and just recently got my first point of Karma...But I play primarily only indy pc's which get no IMM attention, the IMM's do have entire houses to over see after all. I play one character in a House and get some karma....Even though I kind of had to email and remind my clan IMM I didnt get anything for playing the PC, when honestly the only reason I made the pc was to get some karma...I hate house RP, but thats the lay of the land.

If you want Karma....join a House, join a clan, and play responsibley....your chances of getting noticed will go from almost zero to very high just from hooking up in a organization that gets constant IMM attention. It sucks I know....


Over the past six years I have probably got 15 people addicted, I wrote all of their first characters for them....I helped them along the way.....They all have more karma than I do...Most of them like playing in Houses. Hell one of the even got vast amounts of karma on his first ever pc....Dont hold it against the IMM's...they cant be there to see everyone...you have to kind of jump in the lime light so to speak, make yourself get noticed.


I dont know what all of that rambling was about....But in short....if you want karma...Join a House, keep good email communication between yourself and your clan IMM...and if all else fails...email and ask for Karma if it means that much to you...the worst they can do is tell you no...Or...eat your brainz.

[Intrepid]

The imms are as fair as they can be regarding karma, and it has nothing to do with
whomever they like.  I've been kicked off the mud before for getting into an argument
with Nessalin that resulted in my character being zotted by the aforementioned and I
have acquired karma since then.

It's not likability of a person.  It's not even good roleplaying.  It's being trusted to
handle the more esoteric and unusual classes/races without going completely insane
and ruining the game for people around you.

That said, if you think you may warrant a karma raise and think you might have been
overlooked (which the staff has acknowledged in the past does happen from time to
time), use the review command.  It will get their attention and they'll start looking in on
you over a long period of time.  If you haven't received feedback within six months,
do what I recently did: Email your clan imms and see if they have any feedback on
either your roleplaying or your trustworthiness and eligibility for a karma raise.

[Mudder]

It's been interesting to read what different people mean when they refer to "elitism".  

When I first started playing Armageddon, I found the feel of the GDB to be kind of elitist.  There just seemed to be so much focus on minutia and a lot of posts that seemed judgemental about other people's roleplay.   After a while, my perspective on this changed, and I think a lot of it just comes with the territory of an RPI.  People have high expectations their fellow players and the game they love.   I just think sometimes the expression of that can be a little off-putting, especially if someone is new to the game.

That's not to say that it's always inadverntent and well-meaning.  Sometimes people are just jerks.

Yep, which is why I very rarely decide to speak my mind on posts that I think will result in nothing but flames. It's pointless in my book, I sure wouldn't like getting flamed and I'm sure no one else wishes too either.

[Gaare]

I guess everybody has some favourites. There is no point denying Staff does not. (Even, there are numberless threads about players' favourite PCs, and that kind of mambo, jambo) Probably staff enjoy more spending time with particular players' PCs, then so what? I do not think, that indicates, some PCs are let alone, given up all plots, karma, whatever it means.  I always try to feel of being proud of doing IG thingies and having fun without any IMM assitance.

Whenever I see some fellow player posting something how their karma is low, I feel they are the ones who put powerplaying above anything else.

[Intrepid]

Whenever I see some fellow player posting something how their karma is low, I feel they are the ones who put powerplaying above anything else.

Another thing to consider is that anything can be special apped, and I mean anything.

I'm not sure if this is still staff policy, but the imms have, in the past, given a player
the chance to portray an unusual race/class in order to give them the opportunity
to shine.

[marko]

The Staff tends to be very good with giving out karma and who gets it for what reasons.  

To make a point, I've been around for a long time.  I have 5 karma (just checked) and am not concerned about that.  Most roles that I play are human and require no karma at all.

I think as Naiona pointed out people tend to exagerate their karma or, if I may suggest this, people just make assumptions.  There's no way to determine how much karma any individual may or may not have unless you are on staff.

I would suggest that anyone who is worried about karma stop worrying about it and just enjoy the experience of playing the best RPI out there right now.  Don't wonder how much karma someone else has - it simply doesn't matter.

If you ever encounter a situation you consider to be questionable email the account with what you experienced and let the immortals deal with the situation - if there is one.  

I really like our immortal staff structure.  I like how there is oversight and that there is accountability.  I could not think of a better structure.  The system is about as transparent as can be and there is true accountability.  Therefore, again, if you have problems, concerns, or issues email them in.

[Ritley.]

Whenever I see some fellow player posting something how their karma is low, I feel they are the ones who put powerplaying above anything else.

I take that as a insult. I AM -NOT- a power gamer. So what I only have one karma.. that doesn't make me a bad RPer. Maybe I just have not been noticed eh? or something. It seems to me that was aimed as a insult to people with no, or little, karma.

[Bebop]

I guess everybody has some favourites. There is no point denying Staff does not. (Even, there are numberless threads about players' favourite PCs, and that kind of mambo, jambo) Probably staff enjoy more spending time with particular players' PCs, then so what? I do not think, that indicates, some PCs are let alone, given up all plots, karma, whatever it means.  I always try to feel of being proud of doing IG thingies and having fun without any IMM assitance.

Whenever I see some fellow player posting something how their karma is low, I feel they are the ones who put powerplaying above anything else.

Just because someone wishes to play a certain type of magicker does not necessarily mean that they want the power, it just means they might have an awesome idea for that guild and want to play it out.  Or maybe that have just been playing mundane charcters for years and wish to try something new.  Either way I would even wager to say it's another form of elitiism to judge someone based on simply wanting a karma point just like it would be elitist to judge someone for anything other then their willingness to play fair and play well.

If you think favortism would be (if it exists) no big deal, then I would have to say that you're wrong in my opinion.  Because it's not fair for other people that are trying hard to be ignored.  It's not fair when an e-mail never gets responded to when other people have their e-mails responded to daily/hourly.

Yep, which is why I very rarely decide to speak my mind on posts that I think will result in nothing but flames. It's pointless in my book, I sure wouldn't like getting flamed and I'm sure no one else wishes too either.

When people can't post their opinions because they don't want to get flamed, that is a form of elitism.  My first post ever I posted anon because I didn't understand about accounts or anything like that.  After obviously being new I was flamed, and I have been flamed many times on this board.  At first I cared and I would stop reading the GDB but seems like these days people have to read the GDB to keep up with all the new code implementations and such.  In that way it is a resource but finally I just stopped caring what people think of me on these boards and I say what I think.   I have met some cool players that I talk to regularly but there is still is (undoubtedly in my mind) Many forms of elitism on this board and surrounding the game in general.  Examples of my description of elitism like I posted earlier.

I'm not here to blame all IMMs or all players all of the time.  But it happens, alot so many times that many time I have just considered not posting on the boards all together because I find it frustrating.

[Intrepid]

Just because someone wishes to play a certain type of magicker does not necessarily mean that they want the power, it just means they might have an awesome idea for that guild and want to play it out.  Or maybe that have just been playing mundane charcters for years and wish to try something new.

I agree with this completely.  It's a curiosity, isn't it?  In fact, I tend to be confused by
people who have karma and have no interest in trying out something new--not that I
begrudge them the choice, I just find it odd.  I have karma myself, but I'd love to have
more--if for no other reason than, despite the fact that I know the special app system
is there, I'd like to try something unknown without bugging the imms as much in the
process.  I've been here off and on for several years and still haven't explored all
the possibilities.  In the end, even if you have a 1 karma, you have a little of the staff's
trust--and that is a start.

[ale six]

Often being flamed or not flamed is just a question of how your word your post. If you come off sounding aggressive, inflammatory, or rude, people are going to flame you back.

I agree that people shouldn't be judged based on anything to do with karma. Don't call favorites because you don't have enough or someone else has too much in your opinion, and don't judge people based on their desire to have karma or not. Judge them based on how they play, and whether they're willing to roleplay and make up for past mistakes or not.

If you think favortism would be (if it exists) no big deal, then I would have to say that you're wrong in my opinion. Because it's not fair for other people that are trying hard to be ignored. It's not fair when an e-mail never gets responded to when other people have their e-mails responded to daily/hourly.

Do you have anything concrete to back this up? I'm inclined to believe it's not the case, and anecdotal "my friend gets more email replies than I do" evidence may not always be accurate of all the staff at all the time. Think about how many emails you send the staff per week (in my case, it's probably about two), and how long you spend writing those emails. Now multiply those numbers by 100. If the staff tried to answer everybody's emails, they'd never have time to run the game! Naturally some are going to be read but not replied to. That's not elitism or playing favorites, that's just how the game works.

I don't mean to flame Bebop by responding to that. In general I think a lot of the claims being made in this thread similar to the one above are based on perception rather than reality, and may not always have substance behind them. Really, we as players don't know the whole story. I just wish we could judge the staff based on OUR (and not others') experences. In my case they've been decently good, and I think this discussion could do without a bunch of the excess negativity.

[Bebop]

Often being flamed or not flamed is just a question of how your word your post. If you come off sounding aggressive, inflammatory, or rude, people are going to flame you back.

I agree that people shouldn't be judged based on anything to do with karma. Don't call favorites because you don't have enough or someone else has too much in your opinion, and don't judge people based on their desire to have karma or not. Judge them based on how they play, and whether they're willing to roleplay and make up for past mistakes or not.

If you think favortism would be (if it exists) no big deal, then I would have to say that you're wrong in my opinion. Because it's not fair for other people that are trying hard to be ignored. It's not fair when an e-mail never gets responded to when other people have their e-mails responded to daily/hourly.

Do you have anything concrete to back this up? I'm inclined to believe it's not the case, and anecdotal "my friend gets more email replies than I do" evidence may not always be accurate of all the staff at all the time. Think about how many emails you send the staff per week (in my case, it's probably about two), and how long you spend writing those emails. Now multiply those numbers by 100. If the staff tried to answer everybody's emails, they'd never have time to run the game! Naturally some are going to be read but not replied to. That's not elitism or playing favorites, that's just how the game works.

I don't mean to flame Bebop by responding to that. In general I think a lot of the claims being made in this thread similar to the one above are based on perception rather than reality, and may not always have substance behind them. Really, we as players don't know the whole story. I just wish we could judge the staff based on OUR (and not others') experences. In my case they've been decently good, and I think this discussion could do without a bunch of the excess negativity.

I just gave examples of elitism like I said if they exist.  My point is if it is there, it should not be.  And I think it is there primarily in the GDB with how common flaming is.  And I do think favoritism is there to an extent.  And yes I have experienced this.  My main point to someone that says playing favorites is acceptable my point would be that I do not think it is acceptable.

Armageddon should not be based on "Who you know." It should be based on people playing fairly and playing well.

I have had people on the board say they hope they never play with me based on posts that unintentionally came off as rude even though I kept them general.  Even despite apologies and knowing zip about my RP. I have seen people take things to the extreme: ie elitism.  What's more irksome is that it was allowed to continue for pages.

[Gaare]

Just because someone wishes to play a certain type of magicker does not necessarily mean that they want the power, it just means they might have an awesome idea for that guild and want to play it out.  Or maybe that have just been playing mundane charcters for years and wish to try something new.

I agree with this completely.  It's a curiosity, isn't it?  In fact, I tend to be confused by people who have karma and have no interest in trying out something new--not that I begrudge them the choice, I just find it odd.

I agree with Bebop as well about curiosity or having an awesome idea about some guild/subguild options.  What I do not understand and can not agree with it, is posting GDB how one is ignored, or does not have karma simply because they are not favourites of IMMs.

It is like, after having bad time in a party at a friend, then shouting failures of your friend in front of the apartment where the party is held.

Edit: Grammar.

[Intrepid]

Edit: Grammar.

We're a-ok with grammar as long as we understand it.  I wouldn't fret too much.

[Attana]

I have had people on the board say they hope they never play with me based on posts that unintentionally came off as rude even though I kept them general.  Even despite apologies and knowing zip about my RP. I have seen people take things to the extreme: ie elitism.  What's more irksome is that it was allowed to continue for pages.

Yeah, well they obviously don't know how absolutely wonderful your RP is.  And it's just as well, because it means more Bebop-RP I can hog to myself.   :twisted:

[Anonymous]

OK - as one of "those people" who thinks that it is more interesting for people to find out some things IC, I want to weigh in on the OOC vs IC info part of elitism, here.

Telling someone how to pack a kank or unpack a kank is fine.
Telling someone how to use eq, stat, inventory, etc effectively is fine.
Telling someone that using "eq" breaks hide is fine - although this should be "bugged".
Telling someone the syntax for crafting is fine.
Telling someone how to "leave" an enterable room or object is fine.
Telling someone how to purchase water or stable a mount is fine.

Telling someone incantations so they can cast spells - SUCKS.
Telling someone combinations so they can craft - SUCKS.
Telling someone that <censored> runs if you attack it, so you have to use <censored> - SUCKS.
Telling someone that <censored> is for sale in <censored> if you go 3 n, 5 w, 2 e, and enter <censored> (or giving out maps of the citystate/desert)  - SUCKS.
Telling someone that <censored> makes a better mount because of <censored> - SUCKS.

What's the difference? The former is OOC info. The latter is IC info, as in, there are ways to find it out ICly.  Ask another mage how to cast that cool spell. Ask another hunter how to hunt <censored>. Ask another crafter how to make some thing. Seek a mentor in-character.  WANDER AROUND <censored> and see what is for sale and where.  Learn about <censored> mounts from an experienced traveller in-game.

These are things that can make for great IC discoveries and provide good excuses for people to interact IN CHARACTER in a world where people might not otherwise have an excuse to do so.  I don't think that all OOC info is bad - but I think that information you -can- find out IC (without using the ooc command) should be fair game to learn in character.

Yes, where to get water is common knowledge to YOU and any of the city PCs, but a new player needn't necessarily be from the city. There are many outlying villages, and choosing to play the gawping, gangly youth as a first character is a good idea. It encourages people to interact with you and take advantage of you, and you'll learn more about the world than listening to the stilted perspective of one 'veteran' player who wants you to play exactly the same way that he does.

I still remember the first time I saw a ginka fruit in the wild. It was amazing. Sure, any idiot with a spear could stumble across this if he's in the right place in the right time, but just because you can buy them in the market, or because YOU personally have seen this with one or more of your characters does not mean that it's something that every new player and every player does/must know.

[Lizzie]

There are ways to help newbies IC if I can chime in.

"Hey NewJoe. You're from the city you say? So have you tried the water they sell in the market down the street to the east lately? I think they've been putting some kind of minty stuff in it. Tastes really great this week." (voila, directions to the waterseller without actually giving directions)

"It depends on whatcher lookin fer NewJane. A horse is best allaround, butcha can't beat a mule fer packin shit. Ya couldn't pay me t'use a mule, they're the ornieriest critters I ever seen. Tire out easy too." (voila, advice on which mount is best, without making a list)

"Can't say I've ever tried to make my own pineapple upside down cake don'tcha know, but I figure you prolly need some pineapples, and flour. Maybe an egg. Mum always kept extra eggs and put'em in everything she made. Try that." (voila, crafting recipe without sounding like you're making a list of ingredients).

"You mean those gorgeous silk gowns? The ones with the beads? You should definitely try that Kadian shop in the market. You know the one, way down in the southeast section of town, if you enter the pavilion right when you get into Market Square and through the flap on the north side of the tent." (voila, directions to the fancy Kadian shop in the market, without doing the e, ne, enter).

A lot of these things are hard to come up with when you have to think fast to help a newbie, but given time and experience it will just flow down your fingers to the keyboard. Most newbies should figure out what you're telling them and if they don't they probably need to read the docs anyway and maybe an OOC suggestion would be appropriate at that point.

Just my 2 coins worth from past gaming experience, I hope it's been helfpul to veterans who want to encourage newbies without just giving info away.

L. Stanson

[Sir Diealot]

But, davien.. where's the line?

telling someone that they have to type <censored> in order to get into <censored> so they can buy lockpicks is what got me flamed.  

The problem was, they knew -where- to look, just not what to type, in order to get into <censored>.  I thought it was just syntax.  I saw nothing wrong with that.

There are things that are 'ic', but require 'ooc' info.  You need to know where to look, and where to go in order to logically type in the command.  However!    Said command is somewhat obscure, or at least not exactly intuitive.  Theres a line, but its incredibly blurry, and so people draw it wherever they see fit, and flame others over where -they- see that line.

Its really just rude.  And, I'm guilty of it as well.  Though I am trying to be nicer, and respect other people's opinions more.

[Anonymous]

But, davien.. where's the line?

For me, the line is the difference between answering this question:

"Where can I get lockpicks? I've looked EVERYWHERE."

and

"So, I'm standing in front of <censored> and I don't know what to do. Am I missing something? I've tried to go every direction."

You can even answer the former question without breaching the line by saying something like "There are a lot of places you might not have looked. Try using "enter" to go into market stalls, or use "ask" to find out rumors from NPCs."

Now, if you want to convey to them that they should look in <censored>, that's something they need to find out in character. I really hate to say it, but they need to be able to ask around, establish the legality, and find someone who knows where it might be traded. Interaction like that can be very interesting.

The one problem is players who can't establish between NPCs and PCs (which is practically impossible) when NPCs don't answer.

I think it would be useful if more NPCs had "ask" functions on them, especially in certain places. This way, even off-peak players might be able to figure stuff like this out without going OOC.

Maybe the helpers could compile a list of most frequently asked questions that could be answered IC and put in a request to have some ask syntax added to a few NPCs to solve this problem?

Then you could say "use the ask syntax on some of the NPCs, or find a PC to help you with that one."

"Which NPC?"

"You might have to talk to a few before you find him, but I imagine you'll learn a lot during your search."

ask half-giant rumors
"you can ask the half giant soldier of Tektolnes about the following:
spice
lockpicks
water
Tektolnes"

ask half-giant lockpicks

the half-giant narrows his eyes and looks down at you, and says in sirihish:
   "Why you wanna be asking me about dat? Are you up to no good? Do I need to arrest you? Get out of here."

[Xygax]

telling someone that they have to type <censored> in order to get into <censored> so they can buy lockpicks is what got me flamed.  

The problem was, they knew -where- to look, just not what to type, in order to get into <censored>.  I thought it was just syntax.  I saw nothing wrong with that.

If you posted this on the GDB (which I don't recall, just saying hypothetically), then you were dealing with a much larger audience than just the one person who know where to go but not what to type.  This kind of IC info is totally unacceptable.  Even one-on-one, you should recommend that the player e-mail the staff instead of offering that information yourself.

-- X