Making Virtual Children Talk

[Scarborough]

So, I haven't seen many players RP character that have virtual children who are old enough to talk.  I'm wondering if there is a way to RP having them talk, and actually holding a conversation with another PC.  Obviously you can't do this with emote since it doesn't make use of the language/accent things.  I thought that there might be a creative way I could do it with my own "say" command, with added emote, but I can't figure that out.

I just chatted via a wish to staff and they said there really wasn't a way to have them converse directly with other people and suggested having them whisper to the parent, and the parent passing it on.  That will work for a why young child, but not as they get older.  They also suggested having the child be less present, which is an unfortunate solution to the problem, but certainly addresses the problem until they reach an age where someone can actually create and play the character.

Other ideas?

[Marauder Moe]

One solution I saw was someone who had a mute vNPC child.  It worked well enough, but obviously you can't expect it to be very common.  *shrug*

[bloodfromstone]

Interesting question. Everyone always gets murdered before their kid gets old enough, it seems. Kudos to you, if you made it this far. I've always wanted to see a child go from virtual to played at age 13.

Unfortunately, I don't really have any great solutions. I hope you come up with something, though.

[grog]

Speaking with Virtual NPC's and even NPC's in general.  Always been a bit tricky.  

Are we supposed to pretend they are talking and hold a one sided conversation?  I often do this when I'm by myself, but it feels weird with other PC's around.   (so I don't do it as much)

I'd really like to know how other people do it, because I'd love to find a good way to do it.

[MorganChaos]

Speaking with Virtual NPC's and even NPC's in general.  Always been a bit tricky.  

Are we supposed to pretend they are talking and hold a one sided conversation?  I often do this when I'm by myself, but it feels weird with other PC's around.   (so I don't do it as much)

I'd really like to know how other people do it, because I'd love to find a good way to do it.

Speaking as someone who has played a virtual kid, who was old enough to babbles a few words, I used emote. Also, playing with VNPCs now, I use think for the Way.

Ex.

think Yes, mom, I know. Yes, I got the apartment. Don't worry about it, I'm taking care of everything. I promise. You and Dad just relax until I tell you, yeah?

emote smiles, stroking the black-haired baby's wispy curls as he babbles on about fruit in allundean.

In terms of a virtual ten-year-old? I'd probably use emotes, as well as depending on the PC reacting to them to draw logical conclusions. I might use OOC whispers or Ways to say more specific lines. Like,

whisper dude (oocly) He says "Really? Well, ginka's my favorite. Mom gives me it when I'm good. Says the house she works for gives her all she wants!" and nods proudly.

emote nods to ~chick as the black-haired boy talks animatedly at ~dude, then smiles and nods proudly.

[Naiona]

You could easily emote a shy child who will only whisper their reply to you, even when others ask questions.  Then simply relay the answer to the other adult - as often happens in real life.

[MorganChaos]

You could easily emote a shy child who will only whisper their reply to you, even when others ask questions.  Then simply relay the answer to the other adult - as often happens in real life.

Yeah, but by twelve years old that's a little unlikely.

[Maybe42or54]

Kick their trifling ass out when they're twelve.

[Tamarin]

After 10, just round up and have someone play your kid.  Who's going to care?  Honestly.

[Scarborough]

*chuckles at Tamarin for her own reasons*  

emote smiles, stroking the black-haired baby's wispy curls as he babbles on about fruit in allundean.

The problem with this is that if the other people around don't speak allundean they wouldn't know the child is babbling about fruit.  So, the whisper suggestion is that the parent whisper and preface ooc, and just tell the other person what's being said.  Hm.  

The child in question isn't near 13.  They are 3 and some odd days, and a personality has already been established -- they aren't shy.  It would be awkward to change to shy.  

Thanks for the suggestions.

[MorganChaos]

Well, I've seen an emote along the lines of "the toddler crawls over %dude lap, babbling a few coherent words in cavilish." At the time I had cavilish, but it wasn't intelligible. I'd just popped it. So that's up to the people around to use discretion.

VNPCs require a lot of discretion from players. (Including not making my VNPC do things that it would not do. Grr.)

Yeah...when my char had a kid, someone else emoted the kid screaming and wailing. I was like "No. This kid is quiet and does not cry unless, like, dropped. This kid fusses and whimpers. He does not scream and wail. Get you own goddamn VNPC."

[John]

I'd say be a neglectful parent and leave it with your own parents or siblings. Or a neighbour. You don't have to really be neglectful, just see them virtually, only.

[Scarborough]

It's so much more fun to have them be around, but then, I'm not big into .. mm, nevermind.

So, yeah,  I think I figured out a way that one could use "say" as a means of making a virtual child talk.  I tried out talk, and that wouldn't work, and I'm not entirely sure about whisper yet.   If you use say, the output is something like this:

Reaching up and scratching her nose, you say, in sirihish: "whatever"
 ..or..
Reaching up and scratching her nose, the boring, tanned woman says, in sirihish: "whatever"

Now, what if someone were to do this:

say (excitedly, a blond, bright-eyed toddler sitting next to) whatever
 ..it comes out...
Excitedly, a blond, bright-eyed toddler sitting next to, you say, in sirihish:  "whatever"
 ..or to others...
Excitedly, a blond, bright-eyed toddler sitting next to, the boring, tanned woman says, in sirihish:  "whatever"

The comma after "sitting next to" would be grammatically wrong, but: 1) it's pretty close  2) it utilizes languages the right way  3) it still lets one add an emote to the say.  This is the only language command I've found to work so far because it puts the emote first and the speaker last.  "Talk" puts the emote last.  I'm sure others might work.  Thoughts??

[amoeba]

A virtual child never -really- needs to speak, they are sooo expressive non-verbally.

Code Select Expand

say (yelling back over your shoulder to the wild-haired, kohl-lidded teen sauntering towards the doorway) Since you are going out, grab a bag of flour from the grocer would you?

em squints her eyes in frustration as the wild-haired, kohl-lidded teen lifts her hand, extending her middle finger before turning and hastily stomping out the doorway.

Or for the younger set:

Code Select Expand


say (squating down and holding ^me hands out towards the red-headed, curly tot) Come over here and give me a hug.

em grits his teeth as the red-headed, curly tot giggles suddenly, yellow liquid spilling forth in copious quanities to stain a new blue dyed, gwoshi rug.

[ale six]

However you do it, I wouldn't want to see use of the OOC command (or even "ooc" whispers/says) to provide dialogue for virtual people. That would just look awkward and jarring to me.

Of the suggestions made, I like having yourself be the mouthpiece for the child, or just do something along the lines of "emote holds the baby as it babbles on in sirihish about fruit."

Another thing here... sometimes very small children can "talk", but their speech is such that only people who spend lots of time around them can actually understand what they're saying. To everyone else it sounds like baby-babble. You could just have yourself be the "translator" for your kid.

[The7DeadlyVenomz]

How about an appendment to the talk functions adding a v[/i] before them, such as vtalk, or vsay, or vwhisper?

Does it have potential for abuse? Hell yes. Do I think it would really be abused too often? Nah. So you have a friend that's a VNPC? Well, you can talk for him and such, but he won't be rescuing you anytime soon.

*shrug* That's about the only workaround I can think of.

[bardess]

Vtalk, vsay, and vwhisper are great.  Except instead of giving it to everyone, IMMs could load it onto people who email them and want it (better yet, use the request feature).

This way, people with IC children can have them talk (if they are old enough to talk), and people who introduce their vNPCs often to other PCs can use it.  If you're just talking to a vNPC on the street?  Ehh... you don't really need it, just to prevent twinkism.

[Akaramu]

One solution I saw was someone who had a mute vNPC child.  It worked well enough, but obviously you can't expect it to be very common.  *shrug*

http://www.armageddon.org/rp/logs/log.commonersmarriage.html

Thats how I did it... but as he said, it is not really common, and if I had a PC with a kid again I dont know how I would solve the issue. It is bugging me a bit, as my PCs who live any significant amount of time often seem to end up having kids. I am sort of hoping for more new code imm awesomeness.  

Vtalk, vsay, and vwhisper are great.  Except instead of giving it to everyone, IMMs could load it onto people who email them and want it (better yet, use the request feature).

This sounds very cool. Gimme! Please!

[Cale_Knight]

Vtalk, vsay, and vwhisper are great.

I don't like it. We all have a single character and we only play that character. It's fine to use vNPCs as props, but these ideas fall more into the line of being able to RP multiple PCs, which isn't what this game is about. Throwaway, brief props are one thing, but this is quite another.

[Jherlen]

Vtalk, vsay, and vwhisper are great.

I don't like it. We all have a single character and we only play that character. It's fine to use vNPCs as props, but these ideas fall more into the line of being able to RP multiple PCs, which isn't what this game is about. Throwaway, brief props are one thing, but this is quite another.

I agree with Cale. A past PC of mine had four VNPC children, and while the commands would have been useful in some limited scenarios, I don't really think they're needed, nor do I think that people should be bringing VNPCs into roleplay that extensively.

[Morfeus]

I somewhat agree and somewhat disagree. I tend to use VNPCs a lot when soloing. I usually do not when I have a chance to interact with other PCs. I do not mind if other people do as long as VNPCs actions are reasonable - when I played a gemmer and someone emoted VNPC attacking my character, I got a bit upset. I do not think 'vsay' is necessary, simply because there is usually some other solution and because I more like interation "PC1 - PC2" than "VNPC animated by PC1 - PC2".

[derail] VNPCs as well as virtual things could bring troubles too easily if used extensively. It is hard to murder VNPC, even more if you need to do it without "owner" knowing. It is hard to put VNPC into jail if it insults someone... etc. (Someone I played with used virtual pet as a part of plot. He thought it is not a problem, but you would not believe how big problem was to get this virtual pet stolen just because it was -virtual- and not real object). [/derail]

[naatok]

*sigh*
All this makes me nostalgic for the days when there were coded baby objects in the game....and they were flagged as 'food'

:twisted:

[spawnloser]

Wow, I didn't think this thread could go the route it's gone on this page...imagine my surprise!

Seriously, when you have a kid, you only need to keep the kid with you for a few years.  By the time it should be active, it doesn't have to go out in public with you any more.  You can talk about the kid, but don't have the kid with you any longer.

The VNPC population is background.  It doesnt need to, nor should it to, be brought so much into the foreground.  It does, to me, seem like having additional characters.  I know someone that was denied having a coded NPC follower thingy for a spouse for the same reason.  Leave the NPC relations in the virtual world...dealt with, primarily, virtually.

[naatok]

But seriously folks, I find that this works:

emote Lifting his brows quizzically, @ peers over at the brown-haired, scrape-kneed toddler girl as she babbles about the tastiness of fried grasshoppers compared to that of live ones.

So long as everyone around understands the language being used, it doesn't pose a problem.  And honestly!  What kind of a parent would bring a child into a mixed race social setting on Zalanthas?  The -nerve- of such a thing!
Aren't there any Allanaki or Tuluki child welfare laws?!

And if you Zalanthan parents have guests of mixed race in your home, and bring your children into the mix, then you ought to be totally ashamed of yourselves!  Unless, of course, you're serving them to your guests and your children are....

coded baby objects flagged as food!!!!

:twisted:

[InsertCleverNameHere]

I had a character who had a kid, and did a mix of a few suggestions. For the majority of the time, the kid was with a vnpc caretaker, and when around other people the kid was shy and simply whispered, and my PC would verbalize whatever was whispered. It worked out well enough. But since not every kid IS going to be one of those shy, leg-hugging variety, I think if the IMMs ever did add that vsay command it'd be great. Via email or request I think it would be prudent to have the person state their case as to why they need the feature (a child being a good reason of course), and just have it roll from there.

[Akaramu]

Seriously, when you have a kid, you only need to keep the kid with you for a few years.  By the time it should be active, it doesn't have to go out in public with you any more.  You can talk about the kid, but don't have the kid with you any longer.

Well, in my PC mother's case the kid had to earn her food as well, and was part of her musical VNPC troupe. She was there for any dance / performance. Not every kid can just sit at home.  

The game is about fun, and roleplay. The roleplay with a child at school age was, for me, and some of the players I interacted with, some of the most fun and memorable moments in my whole Arm career. Hands down.

[spawnloser]

Having the kid around means that you are using the kid as part of the scenes you are in...the kid is part of the plot...but the kid is proof from the plot because someone can't just up and kill it, as you control the VNPC by fiat.

It may have been beautiful, memorable and very fulfilling.  I still do not suggest it, as it can get messy.

[Akaramu]

Having the kid around means that you are using the kid as part of the scenes you are in...the kid is part of the plot...but the kid is proof from the plot because someone can't just up and kill it, as you control the VNPC by fiat.

I disagree... I have seen VNPC children kidnapped, so they can also be killed. For any PC who has a baby, the baby inevitably becomes part of their personal plot... and enemies / Tan Muark lovers / jealous ex partners might want to kill / kidnap / sacrifice / eat the baby. It can all be done.

[spawnloser]

...but requires staff intervention.  Why add to their load?  Get someone to play the kid (when old enough) and eliminate that work and need for support, I say.

[John]

Have the kid often run away from home in the morning to go play out in the streets (a common pastime of my characters). The kid can help you out in your musical troupe when you're logged off. When the kid is in your troupe controlled by you, they don't do anything improper (unless you want them to), they don't try to plot against you, they don't try to steal from anyone you or duck off to go have sex with that hot girl they just saw. IMO they should only be used extremely sparingly.

[Scarborough]

Lots of interesting ideas here, thanks.

[Morfeus]

Having the kid around means that you are using the kid as part of the scenes you are in...the kid is part of the plot...but the kid is proof from the plot because someone can't just up and kill it, as you control the VNPC by fiat.

I disagree... I have seen VNPC children kidnapped, so they can also be killed. For any PC who has a baby, the baby inevitably becomes part of their personal plot... and enemies / Tan Muark lovers / jealous ex partners might want to kill / kidnap / sacrifice / eat the baby. It can all be done.

It can all be done, but it is really complicated. I am pretty sure people who tried to work against VNPC child or steal virtual object know what I speak about.

[Akaramu]

The kid can help you out in your musical troupe when you're logged off. When the kid is in your troupe controlled by you, they don't do anything improper (unless you want them to), they don't try to plot against you

Well, the troupe was hired and needed in RPT's. It is rather hard to earn 'sid when logged off.

VNPCs are improper sometimes to spice things up, but I dont think it is so very unrealistic if there are a few common schmoe VNPCs who just want to live their lifes and dont constantly think about plotting or killing. Its mostly PCs who get into such situations, because their players would be bored with the average life of a normal commoner.

Many aspects of the game are virtual and and require staff intervention. Virtual clans. Closed clans. NPCs. VNPCs not controlled by anyone. Things happening when players are logged off. I dont think virtual children need to get kidnapped THAT often, and are probably less of a problem than a whole lot of other stuff. Let other players have their fun, and let them decide for themselves how they want to play. Or should we stop all PCs from having children because their involvement in all kinds of plots might be too difficult to handle? :roll:

[Scarborough]

Hey now... don't you all get too many ideas about kidnapping vnpc children. *chuckles*  THAT'S A TERRIBLE IDEA. *shaking her head*   The vnpc child I and two others been taken turns dealing with has gone fine.  There's been lots of involvement, much use of emotes, and all has gone well.  It hasn't involved staff in any way, and has thus far been a really defining and important addition to my character.  I think really active use of a child vnpc characters can't be lumped 100% into "bad" or "good"... it really depends on who's doing the RPing, and how willing they are to surrender the consequences and fate of the vnpc child to the actions going on around them.  I as a player am open to game fate/serrendipity even planning, so maintaining absolute control over a vnpc child isn't a huge deal.  I like sharing with agreed upon people.  The whole point of this thread was how to make one talk -- most of you feel it's uneccessary, but until I am told to flat out not do it, I'm going to experiment with it here and there in limited situations as it supports the more sanguine personality established for this child.  I'm going to experiment more with the psi communication suggestions given here too, thanks!

[Bebop~]

I don't think expecting everyone to have a shy kid is logical or much fun.  What I would do is this.

You are the friendly, round mother

Your VNPC kid is the mop topped kid. (age

Code Select Expand

>emote sitting on a stool at the bar beside @ the mop-topped kid says, "Ayeah!  Mum just got me a knew elfie figurine!." With that the mop-topped kid drops a firm, proud nod seemingly to himself.

>Sitting on a stool at the bar beside the friendly, round mother the mop-topped kid says, "Ayeah!  Mum just got me a knew elfie figurine!"  With that the mop-topped kid drops a firm, proud nod seemingly to himself.

Just use emotes.

[Bebop~]

That was supposed to be age eight people.

[mansa]

I totally disagree with words in emotes.  I think your character should be the translator of the vNPC.  Using words in emotes is definitely a no-no.

[Agent_137]

following from mansa, it's a no no because it bypasses the language code. Which is always bad unless you're using psionics

[Scarborough]

I did that once with my very first character and was told not to do it since it bypasses the language system.

[Cenghiz]

If I'm in a room where everyone speaks the same language, I make the VNPCs talk with the emote. I don't make them speak when there's someone who does not know the said language, but still...

It's not 'that' important. No virtual family member told me: "We will meet an hour later, the nilazi will perform a specific chanting to summon Lord Templar Hardass then we will all tickle him to death with hawk feathers." ever. They speak mostly about weather, the food they want, about VNPC's virtual life "Mama! Grandma taught me to use a sling today!"... Chaaracter X heard it clearly even though he shouldn't have? Eh. Let him. He won't manage to make use of the information already except very very extreme conditions.

We're asking for player trust in many situations. We ask them to use a lot of skills with common sense. We ask them to be realistic while hunting, we ask them to use skills sparingly and realistically. Is it unvelieveable to ask for a d-elf player's trust that he does not hear my child on my lap telling me: "Mama I am hungry." in Sirihish?

Bah.. We're exaggarating the rules sometimes. Really.

And... Especially with a VNPC for a h-giant who had noone to spar half of his time in Byn and a VNPC I made up for my Borsail Slaver, I made VNPCs speak with emotes without a stop. I have logs of complete conversations, training sessions and dinners taken together. I haven't been warned or asked to change this usage of emote even once. As I said, they said nothing but useless blubber for the atmosphere and I don't think it was a fault to do so at all.

[Akaramu]

I dont remember where, but at some point at least one imm said that speaking in emotes is a no-no, even for VNPCs. Thats enough of a reason for me to hope for a better solution in the future.

[spawnloser]

Yes, the staff has said that speaking in emotes, even for VNPCs, is a no-no.

I think we already have a solution, though...don't make VNPCs such a HUGE part of your roleplay.

[Naiona]

Please remember that you have no way of knowing who is in a room with you at any given time.  There may be an elf under the bed listening.  Or there could be a dwarven magicker standing there invisible just laughing to themselves as you go on about your daily business.

The reason for the rule is to prevent those who shouldn't understand from 'hearing' things they should not - even when you don't know the person who shouldn't understand is there.  I hope this clears up the question.

[Bebop]

Please remember that you have no way of knowing who is in a room with you at any given time.  There may be an elf under the bed listening.  Or there could be a dwarven magicker standing there invisible just laughing to themselves as you go on about your daily business.

The reason for the rule is to prevent those who shouldn't understand from 'hearing' things they should not - even when you don't know the person who shouldn't understand is there.  I hope this clears up the question.

The only other option it looks like to me though is to have a kid that doesn't talk openly, or doesn't talk at all.  That kind of sucks.

[mansa]

Please remember that you have no way of knowing who is in a room with you at any given time.  There may be an elf under the bed listening.  Or there could be a dwarven magicker standing there invisible just laughing to themselves as you go on about your daily business.

The reason for the rule is to prevent those who shouldn't understand from 'hearing' things they should not - even when you don't know the person who shouldn't understand is there.  I hope this clears up the question.

The only other option it looks like to me though is to have a kid that doesn't talk openly, or doesn't talk at all.  That kind of sucks.

You can make kids scream and laugh and cry out loud.  You can make them wander around the tavern and cause a rukus.  You can do a lot of things, but you cannot let them carry on conversations through the emote command.

Example:

say (Laughing after the blue-eyed girl speaks)  Ha!  Did you hear that!  She said that you're a bad father and she wants a refund!

I don't know about you, but in real life, I am constantly repeating what people say, for fear that I'm going deaf and that I misunderstood them.  What's wrong with repeating (and with your own character's emphasis in intrepretation)  what your vNPC you've created said?

[picklehead]

You can always just carry on a one-way conversation with your VNPC child. It's not perfect, but by what you are saying and how you are reacting towards the child one can infer quite a bit about what the child is probably saying and doing back to you.

[Bebop]

Please remember that you have no way of knowing who is in a room with you at any given time.  There may be an elf under the bed listening.  Or there could be a dwarven magicker standing there invisible just laughing to themselves as you go on about your daily business.

The reason for the rule is to prevent those who shouldn't understand from 'hearing' things they should not - even when you don't know the person who shouldn't understand is there.  I hope this clears up the question.

The only other option it looks like to me though is to have a kid that doesn't talk openly, or doesn't talk at all.  That kind of sucks.

You can make kids scream and laugh and cry out loud.  You can make them wander around the tavern and cause a rukus.  You can do a lot of things, but you cannot let them carry on conversations through the emote command.

Example:

say (Laughing after the blue-eyed girl speaks)  Ha!  Did you hear that!  She said that you're a bad father and she wants a refund!

I don't know about you, but in real life, I am constantly repeating what people say, for fear that I'm going deaf and that I misunderstood them.  What's wrong with repeating (and with your own character's emphasis in intrepretation)  what your vNPC you've created said?

Doesn't seem to flow to me.  It reminds me of pikachu sitting on Ash's shoulder.

Pika Pika.

What's that pikachu?  You don't like being in your pokeball and you think I am the leetest training evar?

I just don't like it.  I would mutch rather some way be able to bring life to the child and the VNPC family members I have.  Be able to talk with them animately let people hear what they are saying and be able to chat back between them, not have an OOC responsibility to repeat things or have a shy/mute kid.

[Cale_Knight]

Be able to talk with them animately let people hear what they are saying and be able to chat back between them, not have an OOC responsibility to repeat things or have a shy/mute kid.

I would prefer to interact with your character, not your character's props.

[Jherlen]

I think the best approach to VNPC family is to use them primarily in an "off camera" fashion. You can talk about them and such all you like (past characters of mine would talk about their families constantly), but generally, don't bring them into the scene, especially not to the point of them making active dialogue.

I agree with Cale.

[WarriorPoet]

I think the best approach to VNPC family is to use them primarily in an "off camera" fashion. You can talk about them and such all you like (past characters of mine would talk about their families constantly), but generally, don't bring them into the scene, especially not to the point of them making active dialogue.

This sums up my feelings perfectly.

I like the atmosphere that having children and virtual family creates, as long as they're out of sight. Bringing your virtual teenage child to the tavern and having a conversation seems cheesy to me. Roleplaying with virtual family is all well and good in your apartment or compound, but in the tavern, with other PC's, I think -they- should be getting first dibs on your rp.

-WP

[Scarborough]

Well, I would disagree about not bringing them anywhere.  I think it's really a case by case thing.

[MorganChaos]

I would prefer to interact with your character, not your character's props.

This kinda rubs me the wrong way. I don't like the idea that a VNPC child, something my character cares about deeply, to the point that it's their entire purpose for living, is a prop to you, worth no more mention than a cloak. I only hope this attitude doesn't have any IC bearing whatsoever. I'm sure it doesn't, but this sort of attitude disappoints me. VNPC interaction can be just as rich as that with PCs.

[Anonymous]

VNPC interaction can be just as rich as that with PCs.

I have never found this to be the case.  VNPCs are there for flavor as far as I'm concerned.  Having to kludge up my RP to account for an invisible character doing whatever another character wants has never been fun for me.

[Cenghiz]

I agree with CRW.. VNPCs are for flavoring your solo-time. You may make up VNPC personalities to spar with you during soloing or have a friendly chatter with your child/father/mother.. But when you're at a crowded tavern? Let the child silently play at the entrance of the tavern with other VNPC children.

If I was wrong making VNPCs talk, let them not speak. Not a big loss.. Sorry about misinforming about making VNPCs speak with emotes. Seems my fault was kindly ignored or unobserved in the game.

[Angela Christine]

I would prefer to interact with your character, not your character's props.

This kinda rubs me the wrong way. I don't like the idea that a VNPC child, something my character cares about deeply, to the point that it's their entire purpose for living, is a prop to you, worth no more mention than a cloak. I only hope this attitude doesn't have any IC bearing whatsoever. I'm sure it doesn't, but this sort of attitude disappoints me.

In real life, many adults are not interested in talking to a 7 year old kid, or watching you talk to your 7 year old kid, or hearing about your kid, or looking at pictures of your kid, or even eat sitting at the same table as a kid.  As a kid I found the whole concept of "children should be seen but not heard" outrageous, but that didn't make it go away.  On the other hand, as a kid I found sitting with a group of adults was deadly boring, and would much prefer sitting under the table playing to sitting at the table listening.  There isn't 100% overlap between children's world and adult's world, and there doesn't have to be.

Once they are past the babe in arms stage it is perfectly reasonable to have them toddle off to do their own thing while adults work or sit around and discuss adult things.  It isn't that the kid is shy, she just isn't interested in the water tax, the grain harvest, or the price of mead in Red Storm.  They don't much care about who said what about who, and they only want to hear about the adventures of Malik's Trouser Snake if it happens to be an actual snake that Malik drops down other people's trousers as a joke.  

Heck, if the kid is over 5 years old and certainly if she is over 8 years old she shouldn't just be sitting around with the adults giggling and being adored -- that doesn't prepare you for any life but being a noble or a whore.  That kid should be doing chores!  If your family are tailors she should be practicing her needlework on scraps of cloth.  If you are hunters she should be cleaning and oiling the gear, checking the tools and weapons for obvious damage (yes, an adult will also have to re-check the items, but she will accomplish some useful work and more importantly learn how to do it properly through practice).  If your family are entertainers she should be practicing basic tumbling routines with some of the other kids.  Adults are barely necessary.  The 12 year olds supervise the 9 year olds, who supervise the 6 year olds, who supervise the 4 year olds.

Kids don't need to be the center of attention all the time.  Back in the 1950's in rustic northern Alberta my mother was stuck out in the back alley after breakfast with a piece of bannack (travel cake) and told not to come back in until supper time, and that was when she was 3-5 years old.  This was not considered abusive, it was just what you did with kids that were too old to stay in the crib all day, but too young to do useful work or go to school.  People had work to do, and there just wasn't time for coddling.  (I mentioned that it was rustic, right?  It was like the Walton's, but less endearing).


Personally I don't think the problem of making VNPC children speak should come up much in public, if at all.  When grown ups are doing grown up stuff, kids have to take the back seat.  Kids are allowed into Zalanthan taverns, but that doesn't make the tavern into a McDonald's, it is still very much an adult place and children are not the focus.  Forcing me to talk to your (VNPC) child is very much like forcing me to talk to your (wearable) pet bird or pet lizard -- it is slightly bizarre, both ICly and OCCly.



Angela Christine

[Scarborough]

Pubs in Zalanthas, seem like they would be like a medieval pub... they sell food, it's a hub for information, it's a gathering place, it's a place to come watch a show (bards, jugglers).  Little kids would be working to run errands and gather information too, so of course they'd be in the pub.  

What bothers me is people saying those of us with VNPC children simply should not bring them into pubs and RP with them because it's bothersome to you.  That's not a good reason.  I don't roleplay for you.  I roleplay what fits my character and have reasons for having a VNPC child around.  If somebody bringing their pet lizard, or their VNPC child, or VNPC visiting mother into the pub bothers you OOCly then ignore it or go RP in another location.  At least there's roleplaying happening, at least it's not pointless sitting and idling.  If it bothers your character ICly, then your character should say something or leave.

[Maybe42or54]

Well Scar, she isn't saying that you can't do it, she is saying that babying them isn't getting them ready to be good at being VNPCs and living past the time your Pc moves on. By making them want to be the center of attention whenever you RP with them in public may not be healthy for them. If you dig needy children, right on. If you only make them needy so you can RP with them, then..

[Angela Christine]

Yeah, what 42 said I said!   :lol:



To summerize:

The problem:  There is no coded way to make VNPC children

speak in public.  Having all children be shy or mute is unsatifiying and unrealistic.

My reply:  It is not necessary for children to speak or to be mute.  They can just be busy doing other things.[/list]

You can have all the VNPC kids you want, and take them with you everwhere like ducklings.  But there still won't be any coded way to make them speak.  So I'm simply offering another option for roleplaying with them in public:  mute, shy or busy.  I think busy is a lot less restrictive than mute.


Angela Christine

[bloodfromstone]

I have had the pleasure of playing with a few people who had prominent virtual families that were very well done. One in particular always referred to her rather large family that she would go and visit. Her parents had occupations, personalities, and other children. I felt like I knew her family pretty well, despite never having actually met the virtual bunch. I recall drinking to celebrate the birth of her newest sibling, talking about uncles and aunts, etc. Cheers to you, good-vNPC-playing-person.

My point is that you can run vNPCs in the background of your character's life, and still have them have meaning and personality. It may not be quite what you're looking for, but it's a pretty good option. Plus, it will make it a little less jarring when the kid is finally old enough to be taken over by a player, and he begins acting a little differently than you would have had him act in the past.

[Akaramu]

What bothers me is people saying those of us with VNPC children simply should not bring them into pubs and RP with them because it's bothersome to you.  That's not a good reason.  I don't roleplay for you.  I roleplay what fits my character and have reasons for having a VNPC child around.  If somebody bringing their pet lizard, or their VNPC child, or VNPC visiting mother into the pub bothers you OOCly then ignore it or go RP in another location.  At least there's roleplaying happening, at least it's not pointless sitting and idling.  If it bothers your character ICly, then your character should say something or leave.

What she said, bravo.

Some players enjoy roleplaying around their pets, others enjoy interacting with VNPCs. Either way, its roleplay, and the player is having fun and is staying active in the game. If a PC has a problem with a kid being around, they can say so and leave or go sit somewhere else, just as they would in RL.

I have gotten the impression that the female players (me, AC, MorganChaos, Scarborough, Bebop) have been in favor of VNPC child roleplay, and male players have been against it. An interesting observation, if it is true and I am not getting genders mixed up.  

AC argues that a child does not need to talk to be roleplayed with, and I agree, but once in awhile it would be cool if a VNPC could talk for specific situations where the silence is jarring. It should not be high priority, but might be worth considering.

As another note, the 8 year old daughter I roleplayed with was not needy at all. She would get bored of sitting on my PC's lap after a little while and rush off to do something else. I also dont think she was the center of my roleplay, but an important part of my character's life. I did not NEED to have the kid show up once in awhile (except for a few specific RPTs), but it was possibly one of the most enjoyable experiences in my Arm career. Thats what counts, I play the game to have fun, without breaking any rules, and I let others do the same.

[John]

Some players enjoy roleplaying around their pets, others enjoy interacting with VNPCs. Either way, its roleplay, and the player is having fun and is staying active in the game. If a PC has a problem with a kid being around, they can say so and leave or go sit somewhere else, just as they would in RL.

That's cool. Just don't try to get the VNPC to talk via emotes.

once in awhile it would be cool if a VNPC could talk for specific situations where the silence is jarring. It should not be high priority, but might be worth considering.

If you can't stop the situation from being jarring when the VNPC doesn't codedly talk, don't roleplay with the VNPC.

Me, I'd prefer not to roleplay with virtual characters in such a prominent manner. And please don't be offended when they're called props. Because they are. Just like NPCs are props. Also my PC can't do anything to your VNPC without either your consent or heavy imm help. I find that jarring. Given those limitations, I get more fulfillment from playing with NPCs and PCs. Oh, and VNPCs should never be used in a way that gives you an advantage without imm approval. IMO that includes having your kid be a performer in a manner that gives you an advantage.

[Akaramu]

That's cool. Just don't try to get the VNPC to talk via emotes.

I did not do that, and after reading Naiona's post I believe everyone knows that it is a no-no.

If you can't stop the situation from being jarring when the VNPC doesn't codedly talk, don't roleplay with the VNPC.

Lets assume the following hypothetical situation: (This has never happened ingame that I know of).

My character is invited to a private party and because the host has a family as well, he asks my character to bring my kid along. I could decide that the child is ill and cant come, or I could decide that me and the host's player deserve some fun and take the kid with me. I remember that I play the game for fun and chose option 2. So far, so good.

At the party, unexpectedly, a templar shows up. The templar wants to know something about my character, but due to my position / friends / whatever he does not dare interrogate me personally. The templar knows that my kid is there, and begins asking them a few questions. The kid is not mute and too scared of templars to not answer the smart questions that dont seem 'bad' or harmful in any way. Now, this is jarring, and it would be cool if the kid could speak a few sentences.

You cant blame me for taking the kid to the party because no one knew they would need to speak at all.

Me, I'd prefer not to roleplay with virtual characters in such a prominent manner. And please don't be offended when they're called props. Because they are. Just like NPCs are props.

Thats fine, then just dont roleplay with VNPCs. No one has a problem with that.

Also my PC can't do anything to your VNPC without either your consent or heavy imm help. I find that jarring.

The chance of that needing to happen aren't that big. They are about as big as the chances of you needing to do something to an NPC in a secure space who codedly never moves, but realistically does leave that spot once in awhile. Or the chances of you needing to do something to a virtual entitiy that exists, but is not being roleplayed by anyone. The MUD wants to be as realistic as possible, so these jarring situations arise. They are not common, but they CAN happen, and in that case we'll just have to deal with it.

Given those limitations, I get more fulfillment from playing with NPCs and PCs. Oh, and VNPCs should never be used in a way that gives you an advantage without imm approval. IMO that includes having your kid be a performer in a manner that gives you an advantage.

Can you define advantage? I dont think it gives me an advantage if I go through a dance script with my PC and emote a few musicians in the background. And before anyone asks, I DID try to find player musicians, for quite a while, but none were available, and realistically my PC with her background would easily have found someone. She already knew and used those people in her background.

[Morfeus]

At the party, unexpectedly, a templar shows up. The templar wants to know something about my character, but due to my position / friends / whatever he does not dare interrogate me personally. The templar knows that my kid is there, and begins asking them a few questions. The kid is not mute and too scared of templars to not answer the smart questions that dont seem 'bad' or harmful in any way. Now, this is jarring, and it would be cool if the kid could speak a few sentences.

You cant blame me for taking the kid to the party because no one knew they would need to speak at all.

For me, this is -exactly- reason why playing with VNPCs too much brings some discomfort. Because at that moment, you are playing two characters - you and your child. IMHO would be more proper to wish up about it than making your child speak with the templar itself. Because VNPC child played by you would never do something unexpected (nothing you do not want to). And what if this templar will want to question your child without your presence, for example? Take it away and ask it in place where mom cannot listen?

[Akaramu]

For me, this is -exactly- reason why playing with VNPCs too much brings some discomfort. Because at that moment, you are playing two characters - you and your child. IMHO would be more proper to wish up about it than making your child speak with the templar itself. Because VNPC child played by you would never do something unexpected (nothing you do not want to).

Why do you assume the child would never do anything wrong? If I am trusted with playing a Drovian, I think I can be trusted with playing VNPCs realistically. If the child was questioned somewhere else it could be handled in email, just like many other things that have to be handled in email sometimes. Its not such a big deal. I'd rather enjoy the game and risk the 5% or so chance that something which requires staff intervention could happen. VNPCs or no, that chance is always there.

I had another character with a VNPC child who needed to handle stuff over staff in email pretty often because it could not be done with ingame roleplay... in 9 out of 10 occasions it was for reasons not related to the child.

[The7DeadlyVenomz]

I side with Akaramu. I really enjoy using VNPCs and did so often before this thread popped up. I'm somewhat concerned now - the staff's view seems to not use VNPCs often. Is that the case?

Part of the allure of this game is bringing the world to life. When you've played for 7 years, I'm pretty sure you should be trusted to use VNPCs wisely.

I think VNPC commands should be available when you reach Karma Level 2.

[mansa]

...I'm somewhat concerned now - the staff's view seems to not use VNPCs often. Is that the case?...

http://www.zalanthas.org/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?p=206464#206464

http://www.zalanthas.org/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?p=205811#205811

As Naiona is the only 'OFFICAL' staff member responding in this thread, (Because LEGENDS are OLD and GRUMPY) she has said nothing about pro usage, or con usage.  The only thing she's implied is that having conversations using the emote command is bypassing the language code.  It allows for anyone to understand your conversation, when they shouldn't be able to.

To continue this thread:
I disagree with VNPC commands.  I say, we should make prominant VNPCs into NPCs and be able to boss them around.  Perhaps there should be a javascript for the NPC creator on the site.  Eh?

[Angela Christine]

I think part of the problem with VNPCs is that they take the game back to the level of "Let's Pretend," "Cops and Robbers" or a MUSH.  It isn't a lower or higher level of roleplay, it is just roleplay without mechanics.  Pure roleplay, if you will.

For those that may live in countries without Cops and Robbers or Cowboys and Indians, it goes something like this . . . well, at least it usually ends something like this:

"Bang bang!  I shot you!"
"No you didn't, you missed.  Bang!  I shot you!"
"No you didn't, you're already dead!"

I believe Paintball was invented just to prove whether you did in fact get shot or not.  


Most things in roleplaying games like MUDs, D&D or other pen and paper RP games, can be resolved through code or mechanics.  If I try to hit you there is a dice roll or bit of code that decides if I succeed.  That code can be a crutch, and lead to awkward situations when you want to do things not covered by the code.

For example, suppose that I want to shake hands with someone.  There is no "shake hands" command.  There isn't even a doc that tells me if shaking hands is a custom anywhere in the known world.  Just grabbing their hand and shaking it could get me into trouble, because it is power emoting.  The other guy might have a thing about hand touching and would dodge any attempt at hand shaking, which I over-ride if I just go "em shakes %man hand."  So you see slightly silly exchanges like:

The man holds out his hand toward the guy.
The guy takes the man's hand.
The man shakes hands with the guy.

Three emotes just to shake hands.

Even some hard-coded commands are considered taboo.  I've seen people complain about the "give" command.  Apparently using "give rock man" can be bad roleplay and power playing, because the other guy might not have accepted the item, and now it is in his inventory and he has to deal with it.   :roll:   Again you get into overly elaborate emote exchanges to accomplish a simple task, just to make sure that you have consent to codedly hand over the item.

The manly man holds out his hand, offering a small stone to the girly man.
With a look of interest, the girly man reaches out for the stone.
give stone girly

I hates it.  

When dealing with "owned" VNPCs everything can get bogged down like that.  If I'm playing a crabby old crone I can't just whack a particular VNPC child with my cane as they run past, because the "owner" can say "nah uh, she was running at the other side of the table, you couldn't have reached her from where you are sitting."  Bang Bang, you're dead.  No I'm not, you missed me.


There are two basic kinds of VNPC.  

One is the atmospheric VNPCs, the nameless, faceless crowds of people who surround us.  The guy on the street.  These guys bump into you in crowded rooms.  They ride past you on the road.  They stand in front of you in line at the gates.  Atmospheric NPCs are awesome.

The other kind are persistent individual VNPCs, and they are usually owned by one player or a small group of players.  They each have a specific, individual name, personal habits, and a history.  The are a

named NPC in every way, except for being disembodied and therefore immune to the code.[/list]


Some special app roles do give you specific control over one or more NPCs.  You can make them preform coded actions, including talking and emoting.  They are part of the game world.  From a playability perspective having children as controllable NPCs would be the best possible solution.  You have your baby object that gets upgraded to an NPC when they get to toddler age.  To keep everybody honest they would have less combat skill than a newbie merchant, and using them as sparring dummies would be strictly prohibited.  Heck, give the little buggers just 1 hp, that ought to discourage misuse, and how hard is it to kill a kid?  Then they can talk, follow you around, and everybody knows where the kid is, or isn't.  No awkward situations where both mommy and daddy emoting having the baby with them, in different places.  If you log in and your kid is not in your apartment, then your kid is not in your apartment.

I can understand why NPC children are not available anymore, it could get to be a real burden for the staff.  First a baby object, then a heavier baby object.  Then an NPC.  The kid would need at least minor updates every RL month or two, to reflect growth and aging.  Plus having to monitor how they are being treated.  Is mom carrying around her baby object in her backpack?  Is there a mad pickpocket going around sneakily slipping babies right out of their mother's arms?  You can make the baby holdable to discourage thieves, but then you get the hilarious situation where the person holding the baby gets into combat and accidentally uses the baby as a weapon or shield when the combat code kicks in.     I suppose you could make the baby wearable, perhaps in the mysterious forearms location, but then you get into the problem that wearable pets have, where the person "wearing" the live thing sort of forgets that it is there sometimes.


Obviously forcing all PCs to be barren would be bad.  But having NPC and VNPC children around is frustrating.  Bang bang.



Angela Christine

[Cale_Knight]

I want to have Angela Christine's virtual babies.

[ale six]

My characters always die right around the time they decide to have kids, so I've never actually roleplayed this. I can't speak from experience.

From what I've read though, I don't think anyone in this thread is "against" having VNPC children or other forms of using VNPCs in roleplay. Within reason[/] they can be great. Just realise that there is no easy way to let VNPCs talk. So.... don't. Simple. There are workarounds, and plenty of people have posted them. You can keep them in the background of a scene, which lets them be there to enhance YOUR roleplay, without taking center stage and thus taking the focus off of actual coded characters.

The only other time I don't like use of VNPCs is when people abuse them to their character's advantage in ways that may not be realistic. The simplest example is when two PCs are arguing and one guy emotes the entire tavern yelling and jeering and throwing things at the other guy. I call this the "Me and all my imaginary friends say I'm right!" manuever. Other examples are posting a rumor on the rumor boards about someone and then claiming your character is in no way involved with that rumor at all. (The "All the VNPCs think this because I say so, but my PC didn't do anything so you can't hurt me." tactic.)

Beyond those two things, use VNPCs all you want in the background. Virtual backup singers, virtual hairdressers, virtual parents/best friends/ kids, virtual competitors, whatever. When they're used right, VNPCs are great. When people try and take them too far, it gets sticky and bad.

Moving back to the kids thing a moment: Sometimes I see people using their virtual children for the "Look! I have a baby! Isn't it CUTE?!" factor and not much else. Yeah, we get it. Virtual kid. Fine. Would your character really drag the kid around to taverns and into public through storms and everything? Suppose the kid starts crying and annoys some templar who decides to have his HG guard punt the baby on top of a roof? That should be a very real fear for most commoners. You could always consider hiring a virtual nanny.

Relevant piece of docs: http://www.armageddon.org/general/pregnancy.html

Six says no to VNPC commands and no to baby objects, unless she can eat them.

[Scarborough]

I feel all special (kind of), having spawned five pages worth of chatter, ideas and consideration.  That helpfile on pregnancy seems to encourage a variety of roleplay with VNPC's that are a character's children.  Because staff do not want child objects, nor "hybrid" child PC's created from virtual births, and encourage RPing child VNPC's in that helpfile, it seems like the people playing the parent(s) need to make the call inthe end; they need to decide the extend to which their child is necessary, or even personally (oocly) enjoyable to have around.   There is no perfect way to make them talk, but there is a work around if Templar Fancypants directly asks your child a question at the next highbrow party, which, as pointed out, I did post somewhere on page 1.  

I actually used the say command with carefully added emotes in game the other day, during a relatively solo RP session (unless there was a hidey watching), and it not only helped me feel more in touch with the scene, it made for a nice little log too.  I don't think I'd ever use that work around in a setting with lots of people, however; not unless it was OK'd by staff.

It is rather curious that there seems to be a general difference of basic opinion based on the sex of the player.  Curious and intriguing.  That was an astute observation, if true.  I don't know posters well enough to know who is a male or female, but yes, I am female, Akaramu.  I wonder if there's also a difference in opinion amongst the males based on age.  I'm not that interested where I'd have a poll or anything, but it's all interesting "Men are from Mars, women are from Venus" sort of stuff.

[Morfeus]

I have gotten the impression that the female players (me, AC, MorganChaos, Scarborough, Bebop) have been in favor of VNPC child roleplay, and male players have been against it.

It is rather curious that there seems to be a general difference of basic opinion based on the sex of the player.  Curious and intriguing.  That was an astute observation, if true.

I was rereading the thread and I do not think this observation is true. On the other side, true is I somewhat miss the line between "VNPC alright=females" and "VNPC not-alright=males" because I did not see any post claiming VNPCs are wrong in general, but saying using them very much and in plots could be problematic. (Bang bang, ha!)

[MorganChaos]

Yeah, that's a decent point. It's a good chance that the comment rubbed me the wrong way because of like, maternal instincts. Desire to treat a child as a helpless person and not a thing.

[Maybe42or54]

Maybe looks at children and sees $ signs. Even in Armageddon.

[Bebop]

Be able to talk with them animately let people hear what they are saying and be able to chat back between them, not have an OOC responsibility to repeat things or have a shy/mute kid.

I would prefer to interact with your character, not your character's props.

A character's child isn't a prompt.  It can be their reason for living.

I think it would be sad to incorporate these OOC feelings into your RP, IMO.  I think VNPC can be a lot of fun and it really can flesh out your character.  Characters aren't PCs born at their creation they are supposed to be living feeling people with (some of them) living breathing family that they can interact with.  

The goal of a VNPC is not to make them do whatever you want, though I'm sure some people do, do that.  But that would just be a poor example of RP IMO to make the "perfect" child that will do whatever it is you want etc etc.

[John]

A character's child isn't a prompt.  It can be their reason for living.

It's still a prop. Everything that isn't controlled by a player is a prop used to tell a story.

I think VNPC can be a lot of fun and it really can flesh out your character.  Characters aren't PCs born at their creation they are supposed to be living feeling people with (some of them) living breathing family that they can interact with.

Agreed. But when you take the interaction to a level where someone has to e-mail the imms to get information, deal with the OOC command or be jarred because of the need of a VNPC says command, then you're overusing the prop and it detracts from the game.

Can you define advantage?

Something that your character would be unable to do or have without the VNPC.

And before anyone asks, I DID try to find player musicians, for quite a while, but none were available, and realistically my PC with her background would easily have found someone. She already knew and used those people in her background.

Did you try e-mailing an Imm? They could have gotten some NPCs for you to pay, put out a request for a role, or at the very least said "sure, use the VNPC."

[spawnloser]

Since John said everything I would have said, I'll just tell everyone to reread what he said.

[Akaramu]

And before anyone asks, I DID try to find player musicians, for quite a while, but none were available, and realistically my PC with her background would easily have found someone. She already knew and used those people in her background.

Did you try e-mailing an Imm? They could have gotten some NPCs for you to pay, put out a request for a role, or at the very least said "sure, use the VNPC."

Wasnt one of the points of the anti-VNPC-group that something is too much of a hassle when an imm needs to get involved? Instead of bugging the imm without necessity (I can already tell they would not hand out NPCs for such a thing anyway), I grabbed VNPCs and everyone was happy. No one needed to talk to them, or get information about them, and I could just play the game and have fun. I did not receive any bad comments for it. If I was looking for a second job with required effort to play I'd play Lineage 2.  

[Barzalene]

If you kill your young and eat them, they're not only a good source of protien, they're less noisy.

[Zhaky]

I haven't read it all, cause Im a little busy at the moment, but is it actually possible to play a character with PC-parents? If so, then how do you get your parents?

[Jherlen]

I haven't read it all, cause Im a little busy at the moment, but is it actually possible to play a character with PC-parents? If so, then how do you get your parents?

Oftentimes, people will post on the Player Announcements thread about seeking family members for their PCs in game. Alternately, if you know someone else playing, you can coordinate the role with them on your own as long as you keep the staff aware of what you're doing.